Tome of Battle or Spell Compendium?

[The Ogre]

Been debating between getting Tome of Battle or the Spell Compendium since I have found a store that has both of them. Due to my current budget, I can only get one.

So I ask you playgrounders, which would be the better choice?

[Shadow Lord]

Been debating between getting Tome of Battle or the Spell Compendium since I have found a store that has both of them. Due to my current budget, I can only get one.

So I ask you playgrounders, which would be the better choice?

There is no debate. You must get Tome of Battle. It is requisite. You need it. It is your life blood.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

As much as a love Spell Compendium with all my heart, I'd rather get Tome of Battle. It does more for the mundanes and I feel has more in itself, found nowhere else.

[Vandicus]

This is somewhat dependent, but I'd recommend Tome of Battle over Spell Compendium. Most people have enough spells from other books that they don't really need Spell Compendium as well. Tome of Battle adds a lot of options for melee.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I don't have SpC, but casters are plenty powerful in core-only. Get Tome of Battle.

[Greenish]

If you feel your melee could stand to have more options and cool stuff to do, ToB.

If you feel that your spellcasters should have more tricks, SC.


(With the small addendum that SC gives paladins and rangers some nice toys too.)

[Bakkan]

I agree that Tome of battle is really the best if you can only get one. Spell Compendium helps Wizards, Sorcerers, Clerics, and Druids some, Rangers, Paladins, and Bards a little more, and does nothing for Monks, Rogues, Barbarians, or Fighters. It does nothing to increase the combat viability of certain concepts such as the unarmed fighter. Tome of Battle, on the other hand, makes many more concepts not only viable but powerful and fun, and has stuff for everyone, including the casters.

[Luca]

Spells are all over the place whereas tome of battle adds options to all melee classes even if they weren't ToB to start with; its fantastic from the box for multiclassing.

ToB also closes the gap in raw utility between spellcasters and mundanes, though not entirely. SpC gives spellcasters significantly more and frequently very powerful tools, though quite a few of their spells are printed elsewhere.

Ultimately who is this for you or your group. If it is mainly for you and you like oe archetype over the other buy the book that supports it regardless.

From a personal perspective I would reccomend ToB, though it will require learning a new sub system.

[Golden-Esque]

Been debating between getting Tome of Battle or the Spell Compendium since I have found a store that has both of them. Due to my current budget, I can only get one.

So I ask you playgrounders, which would be the better choice?

If you're playing 3.5, Tome of Battle. As others have said, the power level it gives to the martial playstyle is insane. Be warned that if you want to spread that power to the other Martial Classes, you'll have to do / take some homebrewing ,however.

If you're playing Pathfinder, neither. Power levels are ramped up enough in Pathfinder that you don't need either book. You'd be better off getting another Pathfinder Product, though one group I play with does use the SpC for Pathfinder, since it does add a lot of new spells to tinker with.

[Shadow Lord]

If you're playing 3.5, Tome of Battle. As others have said, the power level it gives to the martial playstyle is insane. Be warned that if you want to spread that power to the other Martial Classes, you'll have to do / take some homebrewing ,however.

If you're playing Pathfinder, neither. Power levels are ramped up enough in Pathfinder that you don't need either book. You'd be better off getting another Pathfinder Product, though one group I play with does use the SpC for Pathfinder, since it does add a lot of new spells to tinker with.

Tome of Battle is very helpful in Pathfinder. You just have to tone everything up a little.

[Hiro Protagonest]

If you're playing Pathfinder, neither. Power levels are ramped up enough in Pathfinder that you don't need either book. You'd be better off getting another Pathfinder Product, though one group I play with does use the SpC for Pathfinder, since it does add a lot of new spells to tinker with.

Warblades and crusaders are better than PF barbarians and fighters. However, Ultimate Combat will have some stuff from ToB maneuvers and stances in the form of feats.

[The Ogre]

I was mainly interested in the Spell Compendium for having access to all of the cleric domains that I don't have and so that my group doesn't have to go through so many books just for various spells.

By learning a new system, do you mean in the same vein as psionics? Because that wouldn't necessarily be a problem.

How do the base classes play out? The only class that I'm aware of the Crusader and heard that it plays out like a more competent paladin.

[Shadow Lord]

I was mainly interested in the Spell Compendium for having access to all of the cleric domains that I don't have and so that my group doesn't have to go through so many books just for various spells.

By learning a new system, do you mean in the same vein as psionics? Because that wouldn't necessarily be a problem.

How do the base classes play out? The only class that I'm aware of the Crusader and heard that it plays out like a more competent paladin.

They play out like a Fighter that actually functions!

Basically, it makes Melee tier three.

[Shpadoinkle]

Casters have plenty of nice things already. Hell, a lot of the horribly overpowered spells that make warriors worthless are core. Let melee have SOMETHING. Get ToB.

Yes, ToB uses a new system, but it's really not that complicated. If you took the time to understand the differences between prepared and spontaneous casters then you have time to learn how maneuvers work.

As far as how the classes work:

Crusaders have the smallest pool of known maneuvers, but they're refreshed automatically, one per round. Crusaders are thematically similar to paladins in that they champion a cause, but it doesn't necessarily have to be the cause of law and good.

Swordsages are basically monks dialed up to eleven, except they're actually, you know, competent. They make great ninja style characters. They have the most maneuvers known and readied, but they have to spend a full-round action to recover a single maneuver during which they can't do anything else.

Warblades are kind of like fighters and barbarians rolled into one. They can recover an expended maneuver as a standard action, during which they can also make a single melee attack.

ToB takes a little while to get the hang of but it's completely worth it if you want melee characters to be not useless. They still have a damn hard time against well-prepared casters, but the gap is noticeably smaller.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Tome of Battle gets my vote. Tome of Battle is, to me, an ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY supplement for 3.5e. So much in fact that I consider it Core in my own games and replace all the poorly-made core melee classes with their TOB variants. Trust me, it's that critical. I know I would never play melee without TOB, and once you get your hands on it you will see why. It fixes so much of what was wrong with melee and makes martial characters viable when put next to casters. It's a must have for 3.5e....so you should go for it over SC in a heartbeat.

[OverdrivePrime]

Add another vote for ToB. I wish to all that's holy that I could find another copy of ToB in the stores near me. Online it's like 90 bucks. Everything a caster needs can do can be done from core + Complete Mage, Arcane & Divine.

[Hiro Protagonest]

They play out like a Fighter that actually functions!

Basically, it makes Melee tier three.

Yep, you can't Fly at level 5 like wizards, but you can jump across most chasms with Leaping Dragon Stance, and swordsages can use one of the two Su disciplines (for semi-mystical martial artist/Arab warrior) to teleport 50 feet as a standard action at level 3 (not much use in-combat, seeing as how you can't attack, but its utility is invaluable).

Be warned though, if your group likes blaster wizards and healbot/party buffer clerics, it's gonna feel too powerful.

[Shpadoinkle]

Online it's like 90 bucks.

Uh... what? I spent two minutes looking and found a copy for 40$. What sites are you looking on?

[MlleRouge]

My group gets more use out of the Spell Compendium. Most of us don't care for the fluff in ToB, though, so I suppose mileage varies there.

[Flickerdart]

I'd vote for Spell Compendium - for the same reason everyone else is advocating Tome of Battle, actually. 3.5's most egregiously offensive spells are in Core (Celerity is PHBII, PW:P is Dragon Magic, and there's a few more, but mostly Core), and by introducing a large-scale replacement for those spells you would be able to cut a lot of caster power. The single source for all the spells also means that bookkeeping is less of a chore, so people who don't enjoy it can still enjoy the spellcasting life. Also, the help it gives to Rangers, Paladins and Bards is immense.

Having said that, if "the dragon ate our Fighter for the third time this month" is more of a problem than "the caster turned into a dragon and ate the Big Bad again" then ToB might be more your speed.

[JaronK]

Spell Compendium just gets you more spells to cast. Tome of Battle makes melees actually fun. Pick the latter unless you never use melees and you're a terrible person. Not that I'm judging or anything.

JaronK

[Hiro Protagonest]

My group gets more use out of the Spell Compendium. Most of us don't care for the fluff in ToB, though, so I suppose mileage varies there.

Replace the word "warblade" with "fighter" or "barbarian", "swordsage" with "rogue" or "martial artist", and "crusader" with "fighter", "knight", or "paladin". Why were you having a problem with the fluff again?

[The Ogre]

Be warned though, if your group likes blaster wizards and healbot/party buffer clerics, it's gonna feel too powerful.
My group tends to stick within the 3-4 tier range for the most part. The only time there is ever a druid, cleric, and/or wizard in the party is if we are expecting a tough as nails campaign.

So I have been convinced that ToB is the best choice. Thanks guys!

[NineThePuma]

I'm more amazed that we managed to have a thread like this without it breaking out into arguments. Whoo, go playground! :smallbiggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

Well, what do you want more? Do you want a new D&D sub-system, like Incarnium or Psionics? Or do you want a handy omnibus of most spells released, some with some tweaks?

[The-Mage-King]

As much of a ToB fan I am...


Buy the Spell Compendium, if it's at retail price.

ToB is cheaper to get secondhand than it, so... buy the one that's more expensive used first.

[The Glyphstone]

I'm more amazed that we managed to have a thread like this without it breaking out into arguments. Whoo, go playground! :smallbiggrin:

*casts Summon Murphy IX* (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2008-05-01)

[LaughingRogue]

As much of a ToB fan I am...


Buy the Spell Compendium, if it's at retail price.

ToB is cheaper to get secondhand than it, so... buy the one that's more expensive used first.

I second this notion.

[NineThePuma]

*casts Summon Murphy IX* (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2008-05-01)
Don't jynx it. :P

[HunterOfJello]

ToB. Buy the Spell Compendium later online. The Tome of Battle is more expensive on websites.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I vote Spell Compendium. But I don't like straight melee that much and always prefer to have an ace (but in most cases a nuke) up my sleeve; in case things get hairy. And the Spell Compendium is full of spells that make me salivate at the thought of what shenanigans I can do with them.

[Ravens_cry]

There is also the weight savings if you play a spell-caster. Instead of lugging a hundred books or a potentially distracting electronic device around, you got one, plus perhaps some with some spells not in the Compendium.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Don't jynx it. :P

You jinxed it by saying it!

[Safety Sword]

You need both!

WAIT! READ FURTHER BEFORE TELLING ME I HAVEN'T READ THE OPENING POST! :smallbiggrin:

Get your gaming group together and chip in for one and buy the other!

Rangers and paladins are much better off with SpC in play. Dare I say, "more functional".

ToB is all sorts of awesome for people who want to stick pointy things into meaty things.

[Drachasor]

I heard someone did something pretty funny. I believe they had the ToB, PHB2, and some other books, then basically banned the PHB classes (honestly you'd have to ban a couple more Tier 1 and 2 classes like the Wu Jen). Apparently it works pretty well.

Anyhow, I say ToB.

[Greenish]

then basically banned the PHB classesI approve this, except you can never, ever ban the bard. Ever.

[Edit]: No, not even then.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I approve this, except you can never, ever ban the bard. Ever.

[Edit]: No, not even then.

You should also be allowed to take two levels of fighter, or use core class ACFs like Spirit Lion Totem or Dungeoncrasher but only allow a certain number of levels in those ACFs.

[Aldizog]

Neither. Get Lords of Madness, best 3.5 book there is.

Oh, okay, Spell Compendium.

[Partysan]

Depends. SpC is easy to integrate. It adds a lot of spells, some of which are really nice.
ToB contains a whole new subsystem and is also somewhat controversial in style. However it is a very good subsystem and adds a lot of fun in play.
I personally recommend ToB, but YMMV.

[Darthteej]

Even if you're not a fan of melee, get Tome of Battle. It's just...awesome.

[Runestar]

I'm more amazed that we managed to have a thread like this without it breaking out into arguments. Whoo, go playground! :smallbiggrin:

That's because we are now comparing martial adepts with casters, not fighters.

It's really all about choosing the lesser of the 2 evils, so to speak. :smalltongue:

[Mikka]

I really don't understand why theres this massive hatred towards spellcasters here in this forum. All this tiers thing, sure it might be right but in how many games have you actually had the wizard totally dominate everything? When i play D&D i have fun, even when im playing a fighter and i do my part, its a team game and it works nicely and i dont need some silly tiers list to tell me how to play.

What book should you pick? Spell Compendium hands down.

Tome of Battle is a cool book, but one that you can easily borrow from a friend, create a character and then use without the book handy (Assuming you get some fancy Maneuver cards)

While Spell compendium is an awesome book to have handy right next to you to flip through looking for cool spells (both as a DM and player) and a really nice reference. Its one of my most used books (Cleric, Druid, Wizard, Sorcerer, Paladin, Ranger and quite a few more classes/prcs make use of it)

while ToB is one i look up now and then for this and that character.

[Terazul]

There isn't hatred. There is merely acceptance that they are bloody powerful, and don't require much support to perform adequately, while the martial classes need a bit more effort. And honestly? It happens more often than one would think, usually not even on purpose; team game or not, it becomes readily apparent in a party of Psion (Shaper), Paladin, Rogue, and Ranger who the swiss army knife is.

I'll give you a hint: The rogue can't dig you out of an avalanche with ectoplasmic walls of fire and feed the entire party until the Ranger finds us a way back to civilization. Oh wait we teleported. Nevermind. Feel free to replace Psion with Wizard, Druid, or Cleric as appropriate. Spells are just that good.

[Runestar]

It's an issue of comparative advantage (or whatever the term is).

Spellcasters don't really need the extra firepower, most of the broken spells already come from core, and they get more than enough tools to be viable. I am already breaking the game, I don't need another 101 ways to do it.

Conversely, melee needs every edge they can get. Core fighters are woefully gimped with their best options being power attack and trip in core. ToB helps make melee fun again by giving them the options they should have had.

So it is like asking, do you give the millionaire another million dollars, or the beggar $1000. Then you ask yourself, who needs the money more, not who gets more money.

Same here. Fighter-wannabes need ToB more than wizards need SpC.

If you asked me, I would first get tome of battle, then magic item compendium and finally spell compendium (if funds allow).:smallsmile:

[Drachasor]

I really don't understand why theres this massive hatred towards spellcasters here in this forum. All this tiers thing, sure it might be right but in how many games have you actually had the wizard totally dominate everything? When i play D&D i have fun, even when im playing a fighter and i do my part, its a team game and it works nicely and i dont need some silly tiers list to tell me how to play.

I love casters and playing someone with magic (on thematic and other levels). However, they aren't remotely balanced, which is unfortunate. It's very, very easy to dominate the game as a caster, which is usually not fun for other players. ToB is a great example of a book that helps beef up non-casters by provide more powerful non-caster classes, though they still aren't nearly as powerful as full casters.

[Lucid]

You need both!

WAIT! READ FURTHER BEFORE TELLING ME I HAVEN'T READ THE OPENING POST! :smallbiggrin:

Get your gaming group together and chip in for one and buy the other!

Rangers and paladins are much better off with SpC in play. Dare I say, "more functional".

ToB is all sorts of awesome for people who want to stick pointy things into meaty things.I second this.

Tome of Battle is awesome, I myself love playing martial characters and gishes and the amount of options you can get even with just two-level dips are great.

The Spell Compendium is a great resource to get as a group as it adds plenty useful spells for many different characters.

But if you have to pick one, get ToB.

[Tvtyrant]

I vote Tomb of Battle, because you get new classes that are awesome!

[Flickerdart]

I love casters and playing someone with magic (on thematic and other levels). However, they aren't remotely balanced, which is unfortunate. It's very, very easy to dominate the game as a caster, which is usually not fun for other players. ToB is a great example of a book that helps beef up non-casters by provide more powerful non-caster classes, though they still aren't nearly as powerful as full casters.
A couple casters (Beguiler, Bard) are quite well balanced.


I vote Tomb of Battle, because you get new classes that are awesome!
Now, now - we wouldn't want to bury the OP with ToB recommendations!

[phlidwsn]

Spell compendium if you usually play casters, condenses half a dozen books down to one. ToB if you want nice things for melee.

And I'm tempted to say grab the one you don't get and I'll pay for shipping :)

[Dienekes]

Do you even remotely like the idea of playing a melee class?

If yes buy Tome of Battle. Simply the greatest book for 3.5 ever.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I vote Tomb of Battle, because you get new classes that are awesome!

Is that where you find the graves of legendary warriors?

[Greenish]

Now, now - we wouldn't want to bury the OP with ToB recommendations!http://coppermine.constantmayhem.com/albums/userpics/10002/t219721_fry_i_see_what_you_did_there.jpg

[Drachasor]

A couple casters (Beguiler, Bard) are quite well balanced.

Yes, of course, though I think they still have a couple overpowered spells, but the narrow focus helps a lot.


Now, now - we wouldn't want to bury the OP with ToB recommendations!

Why not? Isn't that kind of the point of the thread?

[Philistine]

So much of the material in SpC is reprinted from previous splats - I agree it's convenient to have the lot gathered into a single volume, but a convenience is really all it is. By contrast, ToB adds honest-to-goodness new material to support archetypes that were very poorly served through most of 3.x's run. I'd say this makes ToB the hands-down winner for value, unless you just hate Muggles.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

It depends on what you already have, IMO. The Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) and maneuver cards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) are already free online, and that's a large part of the book. On the other hand, a large part of SpC is in other splatbooks which you may or may not have.

Ultimately ToB is going to provide a more essential function, but if you're just running on core or SRD, you'll do better with the free warblade/maneuver cards to replace Fighter/Barbarian and SpC to help Paladins and Rangers.

I'd recommend Magic Item Compendium before either. Most of its content isn't just reprinted from splats (IIRC), and it has something nice for everyone.

[Greenish]

I'd recommend Magic Item Compendium before either. Most of its content isn't just reprinted from splats (IIRC), and it has something nice for everyone.Quite a bit of it is, actually. Especially FR books are well represented, but Races and Completes also have their fair share, and Eberron the occasional nod.

[Silva Stormrage]

I vote for TOB, the spells in spell compendium aren't really necessary. Spell casters don't need it to function and a pretty common nerf to spellcasters is no spell compendium anyway. Tome of battle is incredibly useful and gives you three new base classes.

[Safety Sword]

I vote for TOB, the spells in spell compendium aren't really necessary for characters who are primarily casters, but it's a great boon to secondary casters. Spell casters don't need it to function and a pretty common nerf to spellcasters is no spell compendium anyway. Tome of battle is incredibly useful and gives you three new base classes.

Fix'd? Again with the "post too short"

Fix'd that too!

[Flickerdart]

Why not? Isn't that kind of the point of the thread?
Don't explain the joke, don't explain the joke, don't explain the joke...

Tome of Battle, not Tomb.

...dammit.

[Drachasor]

Don't explain the joke, don't explain the joke, don't explain the joke...

Tome of Battle, not Tomb.

...dammit.

Ahh. My internal auto-correct made me miss that. Well done, sir.

[MeeposFire]

Warblades are kind of like fighters and barbarians rolled into one. They can recover an expended maneuver as a standard action, during which they can also make a single melee attack.



Actually they recover using a swift action and then must make a melee attack (which by the way could include a full attack) OR use a standard action to do a flurry of action.

[Midnight_v]

Tome of Battle. I own both books and while the spell compenidum has well lots of spells, I like the idea of a book that comes with a little bit of everything for everybody.

If you pick it up today, not matter what class is being used, there is SOMETHING there that can be useful to them, even if its just martial study, martial stance, heck I had a DRUID want to take snap kick for "flavor reasons".
I like the spell compendium but it has one use, to increase the power of casters, who are pretty strong already. This book has easy access for all classes.

[Drachasor]

I just also wanted to say that ToB, imho, is really what 4E mechanics should have been more like.

[Numinous]

I vote for TOB, the spells in spell compendium aren't really necessary. Spell casters don't need it to function and a pretty common nerf to spellcasters is no spell compendium anyway.

The trouble is another common nerf is "no ToB". So talk to your DM and check that he's OK with either.

As to the OP: I would (and did) choose ToB. Spell Compendium looks awesome though and if I was playing a caster I'd definitely want it.

[Raimun]

Pick Spell Compendium. It's the gate way to ultimate magical power! Pure, unlimited poooweeer!

Power trip, off...

Like many have said, it depends on which one do you prefer:

Melee: ToB

Magic: SC

[monkey3]

It's not even close, get the Spell Compendium.

There are a however a few (rabid) Tome of Battle fans which will tell you otherwise. They will argue with you until your power of self determination is beaten into the ground. :) This will make their number seem large, when it is not.

Tome of Battle is not allowed in any of the campaigns I play in, so it is a moot issue for me.

[Greenish]

It's not even close, get the Spell Compendium.

There are a however a few (rabid) Tome of Battle fans which will tell you otherwise. They will argue with you until your power of self determination is beaten into the ground. :) This will make their number seem large, when it is not.

Tome of Battle is not allowed in any of the campaigns I play in, so it is a moot issue for me.So your argument is based on Argument from Popularity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum) and belittling anyone who disagrees with you. :smalltongue:

[BlueInc]

Take at look at these (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a) and this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2). If they make you go "Oh my god, that makes playing a Fighter-type fun, valuable to the party, and flavorful," get Tome of Battle.

Spell Compendium is fun, too, but it doesn't add nearly as much to gameplay as far as I'm concerned.

Has anyone said that not getting the Tomb of Battle would be a grave mistake?

[Hiro Protagonest]

It's not even close, get the Spell Compendium.

There are a however a few (rabid) Tome of Battle fans which will tell you otherwise. They will argue with you until your power of self determination is beaten into the ground. :) This will make their number seem large, when it is not.

Tome of Battle is not allowed in any of the campaigns I play in, so it is a moot issue for me.

Are you sure you're not the one who's making your number seem large? The vast majority of people who've posted recommended ToB. You recommend SpC and then "there are way more people who would rather you buy SpC then there are who want you to buy ToB".

Also, why is ToB not allowed for you? And "it's overpowered", is too vague.

[MeeposFire]

ToB adds options to a wide range of characters. Spell compendium just adds to a subset that already have lots of options. Unless you love spells A LOT ToB is probably a better buy in generl.

[Drachasor]

It's not even close, get the Spell Compendium.

There are a however a few (rabid) Tome of Battle fans which will tell you otherwise. They will argue with you until your power of self determination is beaten into the ground. :) This will make their number seem large, when it is not.

Tome of Battle is not allowed in any of the campaigns I play in, so it is a moot issue for me.

Doesn't seem like "a few" given the thread. Btw, are you recommending Spell Compendium because the group(s) you happen to be in don't allow ToB?" That seems a bit of a provincial attitude.

Frankly, I'd lean towards recommending ToB even if the OP can't use it in any current games. As others have said the Spell Compendium spells are almost entirely copied from other books. On the other hand, ToB is a very historic book in D&D, and quite innovative. Owning a bit of history like that seems well worth it to me.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

ToB adds options to a wide range of characters. Spell compendium just adds to a subset that already have lots of options. Unless you love spells A LOT ToB is probably a better buy in generl.Half and 2/3 casters get lots of love, Rangers and Paladins especially. SpC + wand chambers arguably move Paladins up to T4.

That said there isn't a clear answer here, since the OP is on a budget and a lot of ToB is online already. Playing a Warblade using the online material is a good way to test ToB and see if you and your group likes it. That would be better than dismissing it out of hand without even trying it, cough cough.

[NineThePuma]

So I have been convinced that ToB is the best choice. Thanks guys!

The Op already made his choice, on Page 1.

[Optimator]

I'd say Tome of Battle first. It's a phenomenal book. Get Spell Compendium later though, it's merely a very great book.