Druids... Owch.

[Rossebay]

So, today, our party of three level 2's fought a druid as an area boss. The druid was level 7, and had a black bear as its animal companion.

Over the course of the battle, the Barbarian/Psion entangled both enemies and took care of the bear, and the bard backed him up on the bear. The rogue attempted to take down the Druid, who turned into a bear, and the Barbarian's Psicrystal flanked with the Rogue.

So, the rogue gets slaughtered by the bear. Outright. He got his first two attacks off on it, but when the bear actually hit him, he died immediately. The Psicrystal dealt some damage (9 total) to the druid, which was respectable, and the rogue had done SOME damage to the Druid, but not enough.

The barbarian and the bard took the black bear companion down, and then were faced with fighting the druid. Through use of earlier psionics, the Barbarian removed all light from the room, and had the Psicrystal guide him and his Bard friend out of the room. After regaining his composure, he runs back into the room, charging the bear, letting the light back up, and makes his swing. It was to be a Psionic Weapon strike, too, so it would have totaled 4d6+12. That, honestly, would have taken the druid out, and we all knew it, as it was already at lower health.

And, of course, I miss.

Luckily, we'd spared the life of a Minotaur earlier and, in thanks, he became our friend. As a reward for roleplaying, the DM allowed some divine intervention and the minotaur charged the druid, allowing the bard to finish it off.


Of course, though, the divine intervention really took away from the moment. Still, the Druid, after some convincing and some lucky rolling, agreed to reincarnate the Rogue. He was an elf and came back a dwarf, but oh well. It all turned out (sort of) alright.

Still, I can't help but feel that the encounter was a little above what a normal party should have to deal with. If it hadn't been for that minotaur, I'd be dead, and the bard would have had no hope.

So, what really was the Challenge Rating of the encounter? Did the DM put us in something that was FAR above our own party level, or did we just handle the battle irresponsibly?

Was it us, or the Druid?

[NikitaDarkstar]

Just the black bear is a CR 2, and a lvl 7 druid on top of that? Especially when you were a 3 man party without a proper healer and the CR is figured for a 4 man party? Yhea it seems a little much.

[Jeraa]

Was it us, or the Druid?

Both.

You only have a partial party (CRs are balanced for 4 people. You have 3), and a CR 5 above your level is supposed to be a tough fight. This one was even tough as you didn't have a full party, and it was a druid. Druids are strong, especially considering that their animal companions are as strong as a character themselves.

And whole it was a tough encounter, it was still within the guidelines laid out in the DMG (page 49). Well, its would be within the guidelines if you had a full party.

[Eldariel]

So, what really was the Challenge Rating of the encounter? Did the DM put us in something that was FAR above our own party level, or did we just handle the battle irresponsibly?

Was it us, or the Druid?

Well:
- Druids are the strongest class in the game, especially on those levels.
- The boss was 1 level higher than what the CR suggests you'd be able to beat.
- If there were 4 of you.

So...yeah, you were in way over your heads and you would've probably all died if punches weren't pulled. He should've had at least 49 HP without any magic enhancing it and he commands tons of strong spells to boot. Greater Magic Fang on him and his AC, Barkskins, Bear's Endurances, Bull's Strengths, Cat's Graces, Entangles, Sleet Storms, Druids are a nasty piece of work indeed.


Just the black bear is a CR 2, and a lvl 7 druid on top of that?

The Black Bear was the animal companion; it's factored into the Druid's CR. Still, yeah.

[Fouredged Sword]

The encouter was a CR 7 tier one encouter vs a ECL 2 group missing a member.

CR +3 over ECL is expected for a boss fight, not CR+5!

This was a way overpowered encounter for your party level asuming even leves of optimisation.

The druid would have been much more apropriate at character level 5. A weaker companion and weaker spells and fewer HD would have matched the party as a chalenge without overpowering them.

[Kittenwolf]

ECL 1.5 party vs CR 7and a bit encounter?
Yeah, you're lucky the Druid didn't just go "Oh, look, adventurers" and fry you with a Flame Strike in the first round.

In short either the GM was *really* pulling his punches, just planed for the Minotaur to win the combat for you when you got in trouble, or he was a moron to think that this was an appropriate encounter.

[Rossebay]

Alright, good. I was honestly worried that we'd just royally screwed up somewhere.

We got the surprise round, and got some lucky rolls, but overall the druid seemed to be far more powerful and durable than we had the ability to defeat. It would have died if I'd rolled anything higher than a 3 on that last charge. But, of course, I rolled a 3.

Or, come to think of it, if my Psicrystal was flanking it, I would have hit...

Oh well. If the CR was 5 more than our level, then I feel as though we did amazingly well for our setup. And, since the CR is based on a party of 4, really the encounter was CR 9+ for a party of 3 by my math.

Alright. So we don't suck.

[Jeraa]

The Black Bear was the animal companion; it's factored into the Druid's CR. Still, yeah.

Which is one of the stupidest rules I've heard of. A 1st level druid (CR 1), with a wolf companion (also CR 1) is a CR 1 encounter? The book says that 2 CR 1 creatures is a level 2 encounter.

A Druid 7 (CR 7) with an animal companion should not be a CR 7 encounter.

[Yuki Akuma]

Animal companions are a class feature and are factored into a character's CR, just like anything he summons with his spells.

Fun fact: WotC had no idea what they were doing when they wrote this game.

The CR system is broken. This comes as a surprise?

[Eldariel]

Which is one of the stupidest rules I've heard of. A 1st level druid (CR 1), with a wolf companion (also CR 1) is a CR 1 encounter? The book says that 2 CR 1 creatures is a level 2 encounter.

A Druid with a Wolf Companion is also gained for one character slot, even though it's supposedly an equal option to e.g. playing Fighter or Rogue instead (that is, neither takes any extra to pick, both gain levels at the same rate, neither gains any extra companions beyond the Druid's Animal Companion, the discrepancy remains). Yes, it's unfair.

Druids are a broken class. That's the bigger problem than the CR itself; Druids get a CR 1 creature as a class feature on level 1 and can summon (though not efficiently on this level due to summons' low duration) more. That's kinda...unfair. A single Druid + AC should not be one player character but two. And yet a single player gets two characters when he makes a Druid, one character when he makes pretty much anything else.


Yes, WoTC messed up big time on a lot of things (Druids being one of them, CR being other; no wonder this whole deal is so messed up, eh?). News at 11?

[ericgrau]

At level 7 against 3 level 2s anything is going to be hard. It could be a fighter and what do you have prepared, sleep? Oops, immune. Grease? If he doesn't save he hits you anyway while prone if someone's in melee range and gets up if not. Or shoots at range or etc., etc. even with penalties. Thwacky, thwacky, thwacky, bye bye to your dinky level 2 HP totals. I suppose it's a less interesting TPK though.

[TwylyghT]

And with the way it seems to read, a level 7/1 druid/beastmaster with a effective level 11 animal companion, leadership, with a level 5/1 druid/beastmaster cohort with a effective level 9 animal companion, leadership, and yet another level 4 druid with a level 4 animal companion, and tagging along for good measure is a possible militia of level 1 and 2 followers, and they all still count as part of the original druid and would only be a CR 8 encounter.

CR sucks lol.

[Big Fau]

Fun fact: WotC had no idea what they were doing when they wrote this game.

...You stole my line. :smallfrown:

[Vandicus]

The CR system doesn't accurately reflect the difference in powers here.

More importantly, this group needs some back up stuff for these emergency situations. My recommendation is the Amber Amulet of Vermin from the Magic Item Compendium. For 700 gp you can get a magic item that summons a huge monstrous scorpion for one minute per day. Its wonderful for saving oneself in times of desperation, and helps avoid those contrivances that seem to cheapen the game. Blinding enemies can also help a lot, and the eggshell grenade:dust from Oriental Adventures can do that to your enemies when necessary.

[Rossebay]

The CR system doesn't accurately reflect the difference in powers here.

More importantly, this group needs some back up stuff for these emergency situations. My recommendation is the Amber Amulet of Vermin from the Magic Item Compendium. For 700 gp you can get a magic item that summons a huge monstrous scorpion for one minute per day. Its wonderful for saving oneself in times of desperation, and helps avoid those contrivances that seem to cheapen the game. Blinding enemies can also help a lot, and the eggshell grenade:dust from Oriental Adventures can do that to your enemies when necessary.

Eggshell grenades are DEFINITELY happening, no doubt.

[Greenish]

Eggshell grenades are DEFINITELY happening, no doubt.How about Dust of Choking and Cheesing? :smalltongue:

[Rossebay]

How about Dust of Choking and Cheesing? :smalltongue:

Lmao. Wut'chu talkin' 'bout?

[Big Fau]

Lmao. Wut'chu talkin' 'bout?

The single most powerful item ever: It summons a giant mechanical mouse to strangle your hapless enemies.

[Greenish]

Lmao. Wut'chu talkin' 'bout?20' spread 5d4 rounds stun, no save, no SR, no immunity. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking)

[Rossebay]

20' spread 5d4 rounds stun, no save, no SR, no immunity. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking)

x_X
Uhhh. Single use?

[0nimaru]

It seems like this was a tough boss fight that your party successfully made it through, with some difficulty and a death. The DM was clearly not super-optimizing the druid, and possibly counted on your good RPing to provide you with backup.Seems overall like the battle went roughly as a DM would plan a hard won fight.

Also, rogues at early levels always go down in 1-2 good hits. Those dual-wieldy rogues get right up in the front lines and forget that they have a D6 hit die... it rarely goes well.

[Big Fau]

x_X
Uhhh. Single use?

We honestly don't know. Assumably, yes. But they never errata'ed it.

[Rossebay]

It seems like this was a tough boss fight that your party successfully made it through, with some difficulty and a death. The DM was clearly not super-optimizing the druid, and possibly counted on your good RPing to provide you with backup.Seems overall like the battle went roughly as a DM would plan a hard won fight.

Also, rogues at early levels always go down in 1-2 good hits. Those dual-wieldy rogues get right up in the front lines and forget that they have a D6 hit die... it rarely goes well.

Which is exactly what he did. At least he got +4 constitution out of the deal.



And, any DM in their right mind would make it so, I guess. (The powder)

[Another_Poet]

Your GM is throwing over-leveled encounters at you. This was EL 7 or 8, depending whether you count the animal companion as a separate CR from the druid. By the RAW this counts as "overwhelming" difficulty (DMG chart 3-2).

If there were hints that you should have run away, your GM may be OK. If not, your GM needs to learn his/her craft a bit more.

I had a 7th level wizard face a 3rd level party once. Even at 3rd level they couldn't handle him. He was built like a gish, with decent Str and a decent melee attack. That never even came to bear; one casting of Scorching Ray and the rogue was dead. One Black Tentacles and the whole party was blocked while the wizard ran away. He escaped with his life and more than half hits; the party dragged their butts out, one of them dead and the rest barely alive.

In your case, what worries me is the minotaur thing. It sounds like the GM is writing his/her own story where the NPCs are the heroes and you are along for the ride. If this is standard in this campaign I would talk to him/her. Any 7th level NPC against a 2nd level party is going to kill someone, no matter what their class.

[0nimaru]

That sounds pretty harsh on their DM when it's hard to judge the circumstances. If the minotaur came in and tanked and did all the damage and also was grappling the druid.. maybe. From what it sounds like here he came in (Possibly as a DM afterthought to save the day? bad kneejerk, but some new DMs fear TPKs) and did 1 or 2 actions.

In designing boss encounters, you often need to go above the recommended CR because the actions of 4v1 (or 4v2 with a companion) will usually win out if you don't 1-shot PCs right off. I've done a group of ECL 5s VS an ECL 9 boss. All of his high level slots were buffs and control that kept him alive past round-1 charge.


Edit: Although.. the DM could have just miscalculated grossly or had a sadistic streak. I'd like to present every side here, and incompetence/cruelty is ALWAYS an option.

[NNescio]

That sounds pretty harsh on their DM when it's hard to judge the circumstances. If the minotaur came in and tanked and did all the damage and also was grappling the druid.. maybe. From what it sounds like here he came in (Possibly as a DM afterthought to save the day? bad kneejerk, but some new DMs fear TPKs) and did 1 or 2 actions.

In designing boss encounters, you often need to go above the recommended CR because the actions of 4v1 (or 4v2 with a companion) will usually win out if you don't 1-shot PCs right off. I've done a group of ECL 5s VS an ECL 9 boss. All of his high level slots were buffs and control that kept him alive past round-1 charge.


Edit: Although.. the DM could have just miscalculated grossly or had a sadistic streak. I'd like to present every side here, and incompetence/cruelty is ALWAYS an option.

Hanlon's Razor: "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

[Shpadoinkle]

By all rights you should have had zero chance of winning that fight unless the druid was acting like a total dumbass. But it sounds like your DM realized he was basically using dynamite for a job that was more suited for a cherry bomb and tried to douse the fuse before things went straight to hell.

I'd chalk this one up as a learning experience. At least he found a plausible (if less than satisfactory) way of fixing his mistake.

[Fouredged Sword]

Look on the bright side. While my group was training a new DM we faced 7 12th level orc barbarians at 11th level... At night, getting supprised.

we died in 2 rounds from rageing charges.

We had to sit him down and explain that an encouter CR isn't just the CR of the toughest monseter in the group.:smalleek:

[Eldariel]

Look on the bright side. While my group was training a new DM we faced 7 12th level orc barbarians at 11th level... At night, getting supprised.

we died in 2 rounds from rageing charges.

We had to sit him down and explain that an encouter CR isn't just the CR of the toughest monseter in the group.:smalleek:

I'm guessing you learned the lesson of "sleep in extradimensional spaces, divine attacks and teleport travel", eh? :smalltongue:

[Jack_Simth]

So, what really was the Challenge Rating of the encounter? Did the DM put us in something that was FAR above our own party level, or did we just handle the battle irresponsibly?Well, a Druid-7 is a CR 7 encounter (the bear, being an animal companion, is theoretically part of the Druid's CR). Meanwhile, you're a party of 3 2nd level characters.

You've got a party level of about 1 (four of you would be a party level of 2; two of you would be a party level of 0), and you're facing off against an encounter level of 7... and it's a Druid, so it's a high-end encounter level of 7. That's a +6 CR "Overpowering" encounter (which you are supposed to get - and run away from - about 5% of the time; see DMG page 49 and 50, as well as table 3-2).

The Deus Ex of the minotaur was probably somewhat necessary if the Druid was being played to it's strengths and you weren't going to run.

20' spread 5d4 rounds stun, no save, no SR, no immunity. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking)
There's ways around that. For instance, if you have Mettle as a Hexblade-3, then beating the save vs. the con damage also beats the save for the choking. There's also a necklace that helps, and if you don't breathe, you don't choke.

[Rossebay]

Well, a Druid-7 is a CR 7 encounter (the bear, being an animal companion, is theoretically part of the Druid's CR). Meanwhile, you're a party of 3 2nd level characters.

You've got a party level of about 1 (four of you would be a party level of 2; two of you would be a party level of 0), and you're facing off against an encounter level of 7... and it's a Druid, so it's a high-end encounter level of 7. That's a +6 CR "Overpowering" encounter (which you are supposed to get - and run away from - about 5% of the time; see DMG page 49 and 50, as well as table 3-2).

The Deus Ex of the minotaur was probably somewhat necessary if the Druid was being played to it's strengths and you weren't going to run.

There's ways around that. For instance, if you have Mettle as a Hexblade-3, then beating the save vs. the con damage also beats the save for the choking. There's also a necklace that helps, and if you don't breathe, you don't choke.

Had we not saved the Minotaur, he probably would have killed us. We healed the thing instead of killing it, making it out ally. And then we thought it left, which it honestly did, but Rule Zero(The DM is always right) kicked in. Again, had we killed it outright, then we would have had to run.

I wanted to run, but the Bard and the Rogue were like, "Come on, you wimp." So I didn't.

[TwylyghT]

20' spread 5d4 rounds stun, no save, no SR, no immunity. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/cursedItems.htm#dustofSneezingandChoking)

Though the way it reads, if you fail the save against the con damage, you are not subject to to stun portion. Thats little comfort after taking a con hit lol. But considering it can trigger off of either save, your still looking at up to 3d6 con damage, 30 rounds of stun, or mixes in between.

Save or suck.
Save and suck anyway.

Its a fairly nasty item, especially considering that without some trickery your hitting yourself with it too. With my luck, I'd take the full 18 con damage :smallwink:

[Gwendol]

The CR system doesn't accurately reflect the difference in powers here.

More importantly, this group needs some back up stuff for these emergency situations. My recommendation is the Amber Amulet of Vermin from the Magic Item Compendium. For 700 gp you can get a magic item that summons a huge monstrous scorpion for one minute per day. Its wonderful for saving oneself in times of desperation, and helps avoid those contrivances that seem to cheapen the game. Blinding enemies can also help a lot, and the eggshell grenade:dust from Oriental Adventures can do that to your enemies when necessary.


Errata says a Large scorpion.

[Andorax]

How did a Psicrystal A) do 9 damage, and B) flank?

[Doug Lampert]

That, honestly, would have taken the druid out, and we all knew it, as it was already at lower health.

How did you know that? It's a druid! Why didn't it heal itself while you were retreating and coming back for more? Druid's have cure spells for a reason. Why didn't it buff itself and it's bear?

It sounds like the Druid played very poorly.

But then the GM had to play him poorly. Your entire party if you were NPCs would be an encounter level 5 group. He's a top end CR 7 monster. Basically he's got you outgunned, badly. You don't even have a noticable action economy advantage given that it starts at 3-2 and he can summon d4+1 brown bears (or other creatures) for 7 rounds with a single action.

And even with the -3 for picking a black bear the companion bear still has bonus HD, bonus AC, evasion, and SHARE SPELLS! The two should stay close together and buff.

I'd have TPKed your asses, about 5% of encounters aren't supposed to be winnable by combat, and this was pretty clearly one of them. At level 2 you haven't got that big an investment in your characters, if he's not going to kill you now when you charge an overwhelming foe then when will he?

Basically your party just got a lesson in, "Sure, attack the king in his court anytime you want, the DM will save your sorry asses no matter how stupid you are." If you were urging retreat you were dead correct, and I'm sorry your GM has done his best to remove that tactical option from the game by making sure you know it's never neccessary.

[Rossebay]

How did a Psicrystal A) do 9 damage, and B) flank?

Launched itself at the druid from the ceiling, and with the Bard's inspire courage the 1 damage it did increased to 3. Also, it got a crit, so the 1 damage it did was 4. Basically rinse and repeat next turn, and finally roll a crit and fail to confirm. It was a stupidly lucky go at it, and it never should have happened, but it did and we didn't complain.




@Lampert: We didn't attack the king in his court, the encounter was a planned encounter by him and he expected us to come out alive. He doesn't have much experience with druids, and while he knew it'd be a tough encounter, he didn't think it would be that difficult.

Anyway, as I said before, he would have TPK'd us had we not saved the minotaur earlier. We weren't planning on having it save us, but he allowed it (by his own decision) when he realized that he'd had us outgunned. The minotaur only got in one action before getting KO'd itself, so it was still up to us to finish it off.

It didn't cast because we had two turns in before it could really do anything, so it turned into a bear and took out the rogue while we took out the companion, which was rough but doable at our level.

He's done TPK's before. He'll do them again. The fear isn't gone, he just didn't mean for that one to slaughter us at that moment.