Help with my Fighter2/Wizard6 build for 3.5

[Boogaloo Shiest]

Hello folks! I need some ideas, advice...help with a character I've been developing in a home brew Ravenloft campaign for 3.5 D&D. Here's the guy's stats:
Kneffari Esskur GC (Fighter 2/ Wizard 6)
STR-18/DEX-18/CON-15/INT-18/WIS-12/CHA-9

AC-18 (+1 studed leather, ASF-15%) Touch & Flat- 14 BAB(after STR mod)=+9 Melee Weapon At. Bonus= +12 Ranged & Touched At. Bonus=+9
Uses a +2 longsword of spellstoring as main weapon & has Weapon Focus, Longsword as a feat.

Fort-7/Will-6/Ref-6 HP: 46

Has the following feats:
Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring attack, WhirlWind attack, weapon Focus: Logsword & Meta Magic Feat: Extend Spell

So...that's the basic stuff. Because of his high INT, he has a good # of spells to cast per day & his spell save DCs are okay. I built him as an offensive (I like to blow stuff up) spellcaster who can get into melee if the fighter heavy party I'm in is having trouble dropping monsters...or my spells aren't blowing stuff up as well as I'd like them to. With Spring attack & Whirlwind Attack, I can dash into combat, & damage a lot of enemies...even If they don't fall...softening them up for the heavier hitters. Most of mys spells are offensive, bu I do have some cool buffs like Displacement, Critical Strike & Sonic Weapon. My best trick so far is to be displaced, cast sonic weapon (that's +1d6 for 6 rounds), then cast critical stike (which doubles my crit range & gives me a +4 bonus to confim crit PLUS another 1d6 of damage), release the 5d6 shocking grasp stored in my sword. The damage is something like: 2d8+2d6+1d6+6 & if I make my touch attack for the shocking grasp, +5d6. That's 100 pts of damage if my roll maxes. Other than his HP of 46...I'd say Kneffari's a pretty good build so far for me.

That's all good and well, but what I'd like to ask you guys & gals is where should I go from here? Should I keep gaining wizard levels? Should I get more fighter levels? A prestige class like Eldritch Knight or perhaps Spellsword (which I've been thinking a lot about)?
I really like this character & want to build him the best way that I can. So if anyone has any advice please let me know.

[The-Mage-King]

What books are allowed? Because if ToB is in, I have a suggestion for you- Just drop the fighter levels.


Wizard 6, then Warblade (fighter, but much better- it's in ToB, along with the PrC I'm mentioning) 2 to three and Jade Pheonix Mage is always good. You get Int to reflex saves, a good fort, and a good Will for a bit, as well as the option to use your concentration check for... any of the saves, I believe.


Then a level of Spellsword so you can wear light armor, and maybe... Darn it, I know it... Abjurant Champion, that's it.


Remove the Weapon Focus (Longsword), too. It's a trap.



EDIT: Unless... This is an already made character.

One level of Warblade, 10 of JPM, which I mentioned, and maybe one of Spellsword will help you, a lot.

[stainboy]

You should be a Fighter 1 / Wiz 5 / Eldritch Knight 2. You met the prereqs two levels ago, so you might talk to your DM about switching. It changes almost nothing about your build right now - you still have six wizard caster levels and two fighter bonus feats. But after level 8 it's a straight upgrade.

If Complete Mage is allowed and you don't mind multiple PrCs, the standard Ftr/Wiz gish goes like this:

Wizard 1 / Fighter 1 / Wizard +4 / Eldritch Knight 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight +X


Mix in Spellsword to taste if you like Spellstrike. Don't take more than five levels of Spellsword; more daily uses of Spellstrike isn't worth losing caster levels. After Spellsword 4 or 5 switch to Eldritch Knight or Abjurant Champion.


Other optimization stuff:
-Take that studded leather off. AC +4 isn't worth ASF 15% and you can get AC +4 from Mage Armor anyway.
-Take Power Attack, and swing your longsword two-handed if you don't already.

[Eldariel]

I personally prefer to use Ranger over Fighter. It's not like you are gonna use heavy armor anyways while those skills are gonna be awesome. So I suggest Ranger 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight -> with Abjurant Champion as soon as you qualify.

And yeah, you want to enter PRC as soon as possible if you intend on fighting and casting. No base class advances both so you need Prestige Classes for it. That's their reason for existing, really.

[Boogaloo Shiest]

Thanks for all the advice folks! Really. If I can get my DM to allow a retcon...I may just do the build that stainbboy suggested. It's kinda what I was wanting to do in the 1st place:

Wizard 1 / Fighter 1 / Wizard +4 / Eldritch Knight 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight +X

I allready have Mage Armor with the current build though & the longsword? I know it's a trap, but I like it all the same...more asthetics there. :smallbiggrin:

I WISH he'd let us use the Book of the 9. I wouldn't even be posting here because this character would be a Sword Saint. The DM doesn't like (or understan) the manuvers and tactics. Thinks they're too powerful. Of course, he hates psionics too. Well...that's homebrew for ya.

Problem is (which is why I've posted this) my DM probally won't allow a retcon. He's hardcore that way. I'd like to know what I can do yo salvage this character beyond CL 8...if that's possible. I don't think he's so bad right now (hell I save my party's bacon all the time)...but because of the build errors I've made, I dunno where to go from here. Ideas?

[Eldariel]

Thanks for all the advice folks! Really. If I can get my DM to allow a retcon...I may just do the build that stainbboy suggested. It's kinda what I was wanting to do in the 1st place:

Wizard 1 / Fighter 1 / Wizard +4 / Eldritch Knight 2 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Eldritch Knight +X

I allready have Mage Armor with the current build though & the longsword? I know it's a trap, but I like it all the same...more asthetics there. :smallbiggrin:

Problem is (which is why I've posted this) my DM probally won't allow a retcon. He's hardcore that way. I'd like to know what I can do yo salvage this character beyond CL 8...if that's possible. I don't think he's so bad right now (hell I save my party's bacon all the time)...but because of the build errors I've made, I dunno where to go from here. Ideas?

Now you can go straight to Abjurant Champion and Eldritch Knight after it if he doesn't allow RetCon. I still suggest trying to switch Fighter to Ranger if you can; the skills are awesome and starting with 6+Int x4 from level 1 Ranger is just godlike for being good at multiple skills, but if you can't then you can't.

But yeah, if I was making it I'd go:
Ranger 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight+Abjurant Champion

[Boogaloo Shiest]

Yeah...I'm sure I won't be able to. I've been playing with these guys for 3 years now & my DMs pretty cool but strict. This character is a replacement for an Tiefling Urban Ranger that died (because of hellish challenge ratings vs my ECL vs my crapy stat rolls. He's stuffed in our cleric's box of holding wit gentle repose cast on his corpse...& a running joke).

I did a little research before posting. I'd have to get combat casting as a feat to go abjurant champion, which I don't. Again, my fault during the build. Nope the only way I can go is either Eldritch Knight or Spellsword. Both have some good benefits. EK gets me a fighter's BAB & I won't loose any spells per level & SP gives me the ASF reduction & Spellstrike..which is awesome but, I only get new spells every other level. I could go Eldritch Knight (getthat bonus feat) & then go Abjurant Champion after that. I dunno....

[Eldariel]

Yeah...I'm sure I won't be able to. I've been playing with these guys for 3 years now & my DMs pretty cool but strict. This character is a replacement for an Tiefling Urban Ranger that died (because of hellish challenge ratings vs my ECL vs my crapy stat rolls. He's stuffed in our cleric's box of holding wit gentle repose cast on his corpse...& a running joke).

I did a little research before posting. I'd have to get combat casting as a feat to go abjurant champion, which I don't. Again, my fault during the build. Nope the only way I can go is either Eldritch Knight or Spellsword. Both have some good benefits. EK gets me a fighter's BAB & I won't loose any spells per level & SP gives me the ASF reduction & Spellstrike..which is awesome but, I only get new spells every other level. I could go Eldritch Knight (getthat bonus feat) & then go Abjurant Champion after that. I dunno....

Go Spellsword 1. Next level you have a feat. Take Combat Casting. Then go Abjurant champion. This leaves you with:
Fighter 2 / Wizard 6 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion ->

Should work out fine. If you finish Abjurant Champion, finish off with Sacred Exorcist or Eldritch Knight (basically, Eldritch Knight loses 1 more caster level while Sacred Exorcist loses 2 BAB). This should keep you up to speed all game.

[Boogaloo Shiest]

Go Spellsword 1. Next level you have a feat. Take Combat Casting. Then go Abjurant champion. This leaves you with:
Fighter 2 / Wizard 6 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion ->

Should work out fine. If you finish Abjurant Champion, finish off with Sacred Exorcist or Eldritch Knight (basically, Eldritch Knight loses 1 more caster level while Sacred Exorcist loses 2 BAB). This should keep you up to speed all game.

That's got it! Umm...Sacred Exorcist? Isin't that a devine caster prestige class?

[Eldariel]

That's got it! Umm...Sacred Exorcist? Isin't that a devine caster prestige class?

It's available for arcane and divine warrior/caster hybrids, both. It is in Complete Divine but anyone capable of casting "Dismissal" or "Dispel Evil" (Wizards get Dismissal) can enter it.

Again, go either-or but that's only relevant 6 levels from now. Exorcist leaves you with better casting, Eldritch Knight with higher BAB.

[stainboy]

I allready have Mage Armor with the current build though & the longsword? I know it's a trap, but I like it all the same...more asthetics there. :smallbiggrin:


I meant use the longsword two-handed, not use a different weapon. You don't seem to use your other hand and I wasn't sure if you knew you could do this:


One-Handed

A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or ½ his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1½ times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls.

[GodGoblin]

If your DM is allowing a retcon then maybe look into Duskblade? Its a Gish in a box and a really fun class to play. But if you are loking for actual Wizard/Fighter options then the guys above pretty much have it covered :smallsmile:

[Lonely Tylenol]

Eldritch Knight is bad. Too many things do what it does with a better chassis for it to matter outside of core. You lose spellcasting from the first level, which means you might as well just be a Fighter for that level (which gets higher Hit Dice) and replace all the other levels of Eldritch Knight with full-caster PrCs.

Consider:
Fighter 2 / Wizard 4 / Spellsword 1 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Sacred Exorcist 8

If the first eight levels are locked in:
Fighter 2 / Wizard 6 / Spellsword 1 (take Combat Casting) / Abjurant Champion 5 / Sacred Exorcist 6.

[Eldariel]

Eldritch Knight is bad. Too many things do what it does with a better chassis for it to matter outside of core. You lose spellcasting from the first level, which means you might as well just be a Fighter for that level (which gets higher Hit Dice) and replace all the other levels of Eldritch Knight with full-caster PrCs.

It's still 9/10 casting Full BAB; it's better than Knight Phantom and there are no other arcane options. It's actually the best full BAB Arcane Gish PRC after Abjurant Champion, which is only 5 levels thus needing something to fill it out. In this case going Sacred Exorcist would mean losing out on 16 BAB due to the build already in place so it may be preferable to go Eldritch Knight, actually.

[Boogaloo Shiest]

Wow. Thanks a lot folks! I think I'm going to do:
Fighter2/Wizard6/Spellsword1 (don't forget that Combat Casting!)/Abjurant Champion X

You know...I posted this on afew other boards & you guys are the only ones that replied. I know this is an old OLD question: How to make the ledgendary warrior mage... But thanks for helping me decide.

It's good to know about other (better builds) too because my DM asked could he 'borrow' my tatrot cards. (No, I'm no medium. My mom found a deck of tarot cards with a dragon theme to them & thought that I would like them.) This means he's gonna pop a Deck of Many Things on us in the near future. So, if I don't make it through 'the Drawing', I'll know how to build my next character from the ground up.

Those decks of many things are weird. They may destroy what ever plot developments the DM has for his campagain or make one of us PCs a lord or lady in thier own right.

[Keld Denar]

DoMT is retarded. You nailed it down. Its bianary in nature. You either get something shiney, probably TOO shiney that its unbalancing, or you get killed. Or worse. Its very Gygaxian that way.

If you want a truely awesome gish, you generally want to shoot for the golden standard of 17 BAB and 18 casting by ECL20, or at least 16 BAB and 17 casting minimum.

[Aldizog]

What level of power is the rest of the party at? And to what character level do you think the campaign will run?

This forum's advice generally leans towards significantly more optimization that I have seen in actual gaming, so depending on what your table is like, it is entirely possible that going straight Spellsword might be fun and balanced. Channel Spell sounds like it would fit with what you want to do.

The high-level spells that you get by never dropping caster levels can be a trap when you look at the big picture. Has this DM run campaigns in which high-level casters actually use the tactics found on this forum? If not, it's quite possible that the game will collapse around level 12. Whereas if you delay those uber-spells and stick to blasting/sword-channeling, you might extend the campaign's life quite a bit.

High-level spells are not balanced or well thought-out. Many DMs find them quite hard to deal with, and IME that is one reason that most actual games have ended by level 12. Taking the most powerful option (never missing caster levels) can quickly terminate the campaign if you do not have a DM really skilled and willing to deal with what those spells can do. I don't know what your DM is like, but the majority I have had (and the majority of players I've gamed with) do not enjoy the game as much once certain spells of levels 6-9 are in play (and a few of level 5).

Find something you find *fun* and flavorful, even if it is Green Star Adept, and do that. Do not compete with the DM in an arms race since he will always win, and that war is going to be a lot less fun for the other PCs caught as collateral damage.

[Boogaloo Shiest]

What level of power is the rest of the party at? And to what character level do you think the campaign will run?

This forum's advice generally leans towards significantly more optimization that I have seen in actual gaming, so depending on what your table is like, it is entirely possible that going straight Spellsword might be fun and balanced. Channel Spell sounds like it would fit with what you want to do.

The high-level spells that you get by never dropping caster levels can be a trap when you look at the big picture. Has this DM run campaigns in which high-level casters actually use the tactics found on this forum? If not, it's quite possible that the game will collapse around level 12. Whereas if you delay those uber-spells and stick to blasting/sword-channeling, you might extend the campaign's life quite a bit.

High-level spells are not balanced or well thought-out. Many DMs find them quite hard to deal with, and IME that is one reason that most actual games have ended by level 12. Taking the most powerful option (never missing caster levels) can quickly terminate the campaign if you do not have a DM really skilled and willing to deal with what those spells can do. I don't know what your DM is like, but the majority I have had (and the majority of players I've gamed with) do not enjoy the game as much once certain spells of levels 6-9 are in play (and a few of level 5).

Find something you find *fun* and flavorful, even if it is Green Star Adept, and do that. Do not compete with the DM in an arms race since he will always win, and that war is going to be a lot less fun for the other PCs caught as collateral damage.

Now this is some good advice! Actually this is the 1st campaign that this DMs ran this long. I fear you may be right in the ideal that we're gonna 'tap out' @ 12ish. Everyone else's CL is 8th, like my own though. He just gave us a BUNCH of exp & a load of magical items in the last two adventures. You may be right (then it's MY turn to DM).
BUt we've been playing for a while now & everyone's happey with thier PCs so he may wanna keep it moving. I'm still on the fig2/wiz6/ss1/acX for now...well see what the DoMT does for us though!

[Keld Denar]

DoMT: The only way to win is to not play.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It's still 9/10 casting Full BAB; it's better than Knight Phantom and there are no other arcane options. It's actually the best full BAB Arcane Gish PRC after Abjurant Champion, which is only 5 levels thus needing something to fill it out. In this case going Sacred Exorcist would mean losing out on 16 BAB due to the build already in place so it may be preferable to go Eldritch Knight, actually.

Ever heard of Spellsword?

[Keld Denar]

Spellsword doesn't exist. There is only a 1 level extension on Abjurant Champion that gives +1 BAB, +2 Fort saves, +1 Spellcaster level, and -10% ASF.

:smallcool:

[Elboxo]

a dwarf, get CON, profit.
Go into dwarf only PrC in races of stone; tunesmith, waet heavy armour from just a level or 2 without ASFC

[Hiro Protagonest]

a dwarf, get CON, profit.
Go into dwarf only PrC in races of stone; tunesmith, waet heavy armour from just a level or 2 without ASFC

What's a tunesmith? :smallconfused::smalltongue:

[Aldizog]

The more I think about it, the better Spellsword sounds. With a party of that many casters, the DM is going to look to countermeasures such as Dispel Magic, Pierce Magical Protection, and Anti-Magic Field.
The Spellsword's armor is preferable to the Abjurant Champion's buffs in that case. Not just for the in-game advantage, but for the table-time advantage of not having to spend 15 minutes recalculating your stats! I have learned to hate buffs. Anyway, that's one tiny situational advantage that it has over the much more powerful later PrC (I think too powerful, though I think that about a lot of full-caster PrCs).
The OP specified that he wants a gish who blows stuff up; Channel Spell with Disintegrate is just too big a pile of d6's to ignore. Assuming that the game is such that "fun" can trump "optimal."

I strongly recommend that the OP show both the Spellsword and the Abjurant Champion to the DM and see if he would modify the former. Perhaps d10 HD and improving caster level (though not spells per day) at the even levels.

[Seerow]

What's a tunesmith? :smallconfused::smalltongue:

I'll tell you that once you tell me what waet is.



(I'd assume the guy's r key was broken since that was two instances in a row of r replaced with t, but he used r several times elsewhere in that short post!)

[Lonely Tylenol]

It's still 9/10 casting Full BAB; it's better than Knight Phantom and there are no other arcane options. It's actually the best full BAB Arcane Gish PRC after Abjurant Champion, which is only 5 levels thus needing something to fill it out. In this case going Sacred Exorcist would mean losing out on 16 BAB due to the build already in place so it may be preferable to go Eldritch Knight, actually.

As far as BAB and casting goes, I'd rather lose 16 BAB and take Tenser's Transformation as a spell known/spell prepared than lose a spell level, because you can at least make up for the missing BAB where it's needed. Lost caster levels don't really have an "on" button for gishes.

If the first eight levels are locked in, however, Eldritch Knight really is the only way to get 16th BAB and 17th casting without an expensive feat tax and a series of one-level dips, which can't really be made if the first eight levels are locked in, I will admit that, but that still feels like saying "Eldritch Knight is the best option because all the better ones are taken."

[Eldariel]

As far as BAB and casting goes, I'd rather lose 16 BAB and take Tenser's Transformation as a spell known/spell prepared than lose a spell level, because you can at least make up for the missing BAB where it's needed. Lost caster levels don't really have an "on" button for gishes.

The thing is, for Gish-chassis you either have the option of losing extra level of casting to 2nd level of Fighter, or going EK-Knight Phantom or some such. And EK is really the best out of that bunch (the "loses 1 CL full BAB"-crowd). Basically, both EK and SE Gishes end up with 18th level casting; they just lose the casting level at a different point. It's possible to get 19th level casting and 16+ BAB with EK too, though that involves Otherworldly, Militia or such. SE actually gives up too much BAB for that.

Sure, spells are better but when we're talking Gish, we're talking a character who by definition gives up some levels of casting for BAB. You can of course sidestep all this by persisting Divine Power, but for whatever reason there's a bunch of people who can't get free Persisting and another bunch that simply wants to have some native BAB too. And if you're Persisting Divine Power, Abjurant Champion and Spellsword 1 are equally suboptimal and you should be taking objectively stronger classes like Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper or such. It's not optimal to lose casting levels for BAB but that's kinda implied when building a Gish in the first place, and Eldritch Knight is a rather efficient combination far as filling out the levels goes.

[Hiro Protagonest]

The thing is, for Gish-chassis you either have the option of losing extra level of casting to 2nd level of Fighter, or going EK-Knight Phantom or some such. And EK is really the best out of that bunch (the "loses 1 CL full BAB"-crowd). Basically, both EK and SE Gishes end up with 18th level casting; they just lose the casting level at a different point. It's possible to get 19th level casting and 16+ BAB with EK too, though that involves Otherworldly, Militia or such. SE actually gives up too much BAB for that.

Sure, spells are better but when we're talking Gish, we're talking a character who by definition gives up some levels of casting for BAB. You can of course sidestep all this by persisting Divine Power, but for whatever reason there's a bunch of people who can't get free Persisting and another bunch that simply wants to have some native BAB too. And if you're Persisting Divine Power, Abjurant Champion and Spellsword 1 are equally suboptimal and you should be taking objectively stronger classes like Incantatrix, Dweomerkeeper or such. It's not optimal to lose casting levels for BAB but that's kinda implied when building a Gish in the first place, and Eldritch Knight is a rather efficient combination far as filling out the levels goes.

Again, ever heard of Spellsword the one level extension of Abjurant Champion?

[Curious]

Has anyone nominated the Magus yet? Because the Magus totally deserves to be nominated.

[Eldariel]

Again, ever heard of Spellsword the one level extension of Abjurant Champion?

Abjurant Champion has 6 levels. I don't have any idea what you're talking about. I already said "after Abjurant Champion". Also, if you browse up you can see I use the archaic "Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5" marking in my first post directed at the OP in the thread so I'd wager I have, indeed, heard of Abjurant Champion 0.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Again, ever heard of Spellsword the one level extension of Abjurant Champion?

No, Eladriel is absolutely spot-on; if you have six levels of Wizard locked in (and are thus already three behind on BAB), then Eldritch Knight absolutely is the best (and perhaps only realistic) way to reach the coveted +16 BAB break point without losing 9th-level spells. Every other approach relies on giving up one or the other, or making an elaborate series of one-level dips into classes like Bladesinger, which have steep requirements and don't really offer much in the way of class abilities (meaning you're almost better off just going straight EK). For the OP's Fighter 2/Wizard 6 with no indicator that he's taken all of the Bladesinger's prerequisite feats (and then some for the Dragonslayer, or whichever it is), EK is likely his only option.

Of course, I still recommend taking two levels of your martial class and four of your casting class instead; you've only lost two caster levels and two BAB each at this point, giving you the flexibility to either lose more BAB for spellcasting (Sacred Exorcist) or lose more spellcasting for BAB (Eldritch Knight), and yielding stronger results either way. Of course, going the Sacred Exorcist route grants you class features for at least some of your last eight levels (including Turn Undead, and most of the delicious things you can do with it), which certainly does help, as does the larger Hit Dice.

[Elboxo]

I'll tell you that once you tell me what waet is.



(I'd assume the guy's r key was broken since that was two instances in a row of r replaced with t, but he used r several times elsewhere in that short post!)

Gah close! Wrote that on my iPod, it autocorrected it from Runesmith

[Boogaloo Shiest]

So...the general consensus here from my OP is to either go Spellsoword for 1 level at 9th & then go Eldritch Knight or Abjurant Champion. So I can get that +16 BAB. That narrows down my options...hmmm...

So let me ask you guys this then. What about using twiglight & feycraft armormings? Some guys on another forum suggested the EK or AC PrCs but went on about thow the twighlight & feycraft armorings could potentially get rid of the ASF problems an acracne caster may have. I figure, if I took that one level of Spellsword, I get the 10% ASF resistance ability I could then get like say...a feycraft or twighlight mithral chain shirt (or even breastplate). I dunno much about those armors (haven't cracked open the PHB2 too much) but it seem to subtract ASF as well.

I'm stillnot decided betwen EK or AC. At 1st glance, Abjurant Champion seem best because of the d10 hit die & all the very awesome buffing abilities...which my fighter heavy party will like. But, when you really sit back & look at Eldritch Knight, it's actually not a bad choice if you really want to get good benefits from both the fighter & wizard classes.

One more thing. I looked for the Magus PrC...what is it?

[Eldariel]

So...the general consensus here from my OP is to either go Spellsoword for 1 level at 9th & then go Eldritch Knight or Abjurant Champion. So I can get that +16 BAB. That narrows down my options...hmmm...

So let me ask you guys this then. What about using twiglight & feycraft armormings? Some guys on another forum suggested the EK or AC PrCs but went on about thow the twighlight & feycraft armorings could potentially get rid of the ASF problems an acracne caster may have. I figure, if I took that one level of Spellsword, I get the 10% ASF resistance ability I could then get like say...a feycraft or twighlight mithral chain shirt (or even breastplate). I dunno much about those armors (haven't cracked open the PHB2 too much) but it seem to subtract ASF as well.

You can either use magic-based Armor or just a normal armor depending on what you happen to have handy. Twilight reduces Arcane Spell Failure by 10%, Mithral by 10% and Feycraft/Githcraft (both in DMGII) by 5%. So you could, as Spellsword 1, wear a Githcraft Mithral Twilight Fullplate if that suits your fancy. I personally like spells (especially with Abjurant Champion; cast Greater Luminous Armor [Book of Exalted Deeds] + Shield for massive AC bonuses) but if you want an armor, you can most certainly use one built for you.


I'm stillnot decided betwen EK or AC. At 1st glance, Abjurant Champion seem best because of the d10 hit die & all the very awesome buffing abilities...which my fighter heavy party will like. But, when you really sit back & look at Eldritch Knight, it's actually not a bad choice if you really want to get good benefits from both the fighter & wizard classes.

The correct solution is to take Abjurant Champion first and then, after that, take Eldritch Knight. :smalltongue: EK is worse than AC; it's just that AC only has 5 levels so you need something else after you've finished it. EK is the Next Best Thing™.


One more thing. I looked for the Magus PrC...what is it?

It's a base class from Pathfinder (basically a 3.5 variant by Paizo); probably not relevant to your interests.

[darksolitaire]

You can either use magic-based Armor or just a normal armor depending on what you happen to have handy. Twilight reduces Arcane Spell Failure by 10%, Mithral by 10% and Feycraft/Githcraft (both in DMGII) by 5%. So you could, as Spellsword 1, wear a Githcraft Mithral Twilight Fullplate if that suits your fancy. I personally like spells (especially with Abjurant Champion; cast Greater Luminous Armor [Book of Exalted Deeds] + Shield for massive AC bonuses) but if you want an armor, you can most certainly use one built for you.


It might be better to use both magical armor and normal armor. Greater Luminous Armor (or if you aren't allowed it, Greater Mage Armor) exists to increase your AC, and the physical armor is there so you can slap enchantments to it. Mithril Chainshirt is one of the better options; cheap, allows you to have good dex, and has good hardness and hp.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, I'd do non-twilight Mithril Chain Shirt, and layer Greater Luminous Armor over it. You won't benefit from the AC bonus, but it'll give you a handy place to stash otherwise expensive enchantments like Freedom, Heavy Fortification, Soulfire, Energy Immunity, etc. Also, get a Mithril Buckler (also 0 ASF) and slap enchants on that as well. Don't worry about their individual enhancement bonuses, since your shield and armor spells will overlap, just add +equivalents to them.

[2xMachina]

No Swiftblade? Those are fun.

[Leon]

Gah close! Wrote that on my iPod, it autocorrected it from Runesmith

Auto Correct is Evil

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm stillnot decided betwen EK or AC. At 1st glance, Abjurant Champion seem best because of the d10 hit die & all the very awesome buffing abilities...which my fighter heavy party will like. But, when you really sit back & look at Eldritch Knight, it's actually not a bad choice if you really want to get good benefits from both the fighter & wizard classes.

One more thing. I looked for the Magus PrC...what is it?

Abjurant Champion is in every way superior to Eldritch Knight; I mean, sure, Eldritch Knight technically gets a bonus feat, but that doesn't offset the lost caster level. The reason you take Eldritch Knight is because, starting from where you are now, if you took Spellsword at level 9 and Abjurant Champion at 10-14, you'd run out of better class levels by level 15, and EK is your "nothing better is left to take" class.

[dgnslyr]

Hmm, is there a reason Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) isn't on the table, in place of EK? It's also a 9/10 CL PrC, just like an EK, it has a few mechanical pre-reqs that should be manageable, so just hope your DM lets you waive the fluff requirements. It's got the same saves and BAB, and better Hit Die, alongside actual class features than an EK, so if we're just trying to fill levels, why not?

[Eldariel]

Hmm, is there a reason Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) isn't on the table, in place of EK? It's also a 9/10 CL PrC, just like an EK, it has a few mechanical pre-reqs that should be manageable, so just hope your DM lets you waive the fluff requirements. It's got the same saves and BAB, and better Hit Die, alongside actual class features than an EK, so if we're just trying to fill levels, why not?

Its class features are completely replicable by spells, and it lacks relevant stuff; that is, it costs 1 more feat to enter and doesn't give you a bonus feat ergo it's two feats behind. Anyone mechanically savvy can tell you just how big game that is on caster shells.

[darksolitaire]

Knight Phantom wants still spell, while Eldritch Knight gives you fighter bonus feat. Would you give two feats for few hit points and extra uses for phantom steed? I know I wouldn't. But still, those phantom related powers could be flavorful.

Edit: doh, took a quick match of WoT, and being ninja'd! No!

[Boogaloo Shiest]

Okay...so I'm going to simply take another level of wizard at 9th, spend that extra feat you get for making it to 9th on combat casting, & then go Abjurant Champion at 10th. If I can buy cooler armor & use buff spells to keep my AC high then, I wouldn't really need Spellsword for the ASF reduction...though I DO like the Spell Strike ability.

But, since my DM told me last night that he doesn't plan ona level cap in his campagain & he'll keep running as long as we keep playing, I think going straight to AJ at 10th would be my best bet. I'm not sure if I'll bet my BAB to +16 this way, but I'm certain to get a lot of spells & still be formidable in melee as well with all the AJ's class features.

On that not, let me tell you guys what happened in last night's session:
{party was at levels 6-8}

Previously, we had a quest to escort a mysterious NPC into this crypt to find a sword that was supposed to be some kind of relic for his mysterious (but good) religion. In the crypt, we encountered various undead in every room but one. The one room had a medusa as an occupant.

Lots of loot. Everybody's happy.

We find the NPC's relic, rest & he mysteriously disappears, but leaves us the money we requested as payment.

The undead controlling this crypt was a vampire lord & we made him run once, he ambushed us again & we made him run again, but we found his coffin & staked him & his 3 lieutenants.

Lots of loot. Everybody's happy.

Inside the vampire lord's coffin, I find that DoMT I was talking about a few posts earlier & I figure, what's the worst that could happen? If I do die, I can make a stronger build right?

I pull 2 cards before anyone else :
1)The Key: That gave me a major magic weapon (DM rolls a two properties for me. Ghost Touch & Flaming Burst. How cool is that for Ravenloft?)
2)The Knight: I gained the faithful service of a 4th level fighter.

After some paranoid debate on who, if anyone should draw next, our Hexblade declares that he'll draw 5 cards:
1)Donjon: His soul is imprisoned in a tree that instanly grows at the edge of our campsite. He cannot draw anymore cards.

Our Fighter reluctantly declares he'll draw two cards:
1)The Void: His soul becaomes trapped 'else where' & he becomes a vegetable. He cannot draw anymore cards.

I'm not making this stuff up.:smallbiggrin:

After more paranoid debate over drawing anymore cards our Cleric declares he'll draw 20 cards:
1) Ruin: he looses all his normal gear & treasure.
2) Skull: A dread wraith appears & attacks him. The barbarian/bard (who did not wish to draw form the DoMT at all) goes to help him fight the wraith. Another appears & attacks him. I do not enter the melee but offer my newly gained longsword to the barabarian/bard as asistance, but he rages & doesn't take it. He dies & is forever destroyed. The cleric survives.
3)Donjon: His soul is imprisoned in a tree that instanly grows at the edge of our campsite. He cannot draw anymore cards.

The cleric had a retainer of his own who then draws:
1)Donjon: His soul is imprisoned in a tree that instanly grows at the edge of our campsite. He cannot draw anymore cards.

Now I'm stuff with a wagonload of treasure & a man-at-arms. I got all the exp from the session which puts me just shy of 1oth level. Everyone's making new characters at 9th except for me.

How fubared is that? Of course, I'll divvy up everything accordingly (beacuse I'm not a jerk) once they make thier new characters & we meet in game.

[Eldariel]

Okay...so I'm going to simply take another level of wizard at 9th, spend that extra feat you get for making it to 9th on combat casting, & then go Abjurant Champion at 10th. If I can buy cooler armor & use buff spells to keep my AC high then, I wouldn't really need Spellsword for the ASF reduction...though I DO like the Spell Strike ability.

But, since my DM told me last night that he doesn't plan ona level cap in his campagain & he'll keep running as long as we keep playing, I think going straight to AJ at 10th would be my best bet. I'm not sure if I'll bet my BAB to +16 this way, but I'm certain to get a lot of spells & still be formidable in melee as well with all the AJ's class features.

There's absolutely 0 reason not to get Spellsword over Wizard. It's the same level (you have already paid the price for entering Spellsword by taking Fighter-levels) except Wizard doesn't advance your BAB, Spellsword does.

Go Fighter 2/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion ->. That's literally the only thing that makes sense. It's plain better at what you want to do (1 point higher BAB) than Fighter 2/Wizard 7/Abjurant Champion ->

[Boogaloo Shiest]

Go Fighter 2/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion ->. That's literally the only thing that makes sense. It's plain better at what you want to do (1 point higher BAB) than Fighter 2/Wizard 7/Abjurant Champion ->[/QUOTE]

I see your point. I'll just have to deal with the penalties on exp I guess.

[Keld Denar]

+1 to what Eldariel said.

And yea, anyway, as I said: Friends don't let friends play with a DoMT.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I see your point. I'll just have to deal with the penalties on exp I guess.

PrCs don't count for multiclassing XP penalties.

[Eldariel]

PrCs don't count for multiclassing XP penalties.

This is the key. Prestige Classes are effectively customized continuations of your base classes so they don't affect XP penalties at all. If it comes up, quote from the SRD (also DMG): (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm)
"Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing."

[Boogaloo Shiest]

Well that settles it then!

I got a bunch of loot, a retainer & really nifty sword. And I can make this character pretty frigin' sweet...asuming my DM doesn't throw something incredibly deadly at me.

[Seerow]

Well that settles it then!

I got a bunch of loot, a retainer & really nifty sword. And I can make this character pretty frigin' sweet...asuming my DM doesn't throw something incredibly deadly at me.

But that's the DM's job!

[Lonely Tylenol]

Okay...so I'm going to simply take another level of wizard at 9th, spend that extra feat you get for making it to 9th on combat casting, & then go Abjurant Champion at 10th. If I can buy cooler armor & use buff spells to keep my AC high then, I wouldn't really need Spellsword for the ASF reduction...though I DO like the Spell Strike ability.

On top of everything everyone else said, you do want Spellsword for the Arcane Spell Failure reduction--not because you want to wear armor for the AC (you don't--Abjurant Champion makes Greater Luminous Armor a +13 to AC as a third-level spell by its fifth level, and failing that, you can always try to convince your DM to let you count Mage Armor), but because you want to wear armor for the useful enchantments and customizations it can provide (that spell armor can't).

(Having something useful in an Antimagic Field or a contingency for when Dispel Magic removes your spell armor mid-combat doesn't hurt, either.)

[Boogaloo Shiest]

On top of everything everyone else said, you do want Spellsword for the Arcane Spell Failure reduction--not because you want to wear armor for the AC (you don't--Abjurant Champion makes Greater Luminous Armor a +13 to AC as a third-level spell by its fifth level, and failing that, you can always try to convince your DM to let you count Mage Armor), but because you want to wear armor for the useful enchantments and customizations it can provide (that spell armor can't).

(Having something useful in an Antimagic Field or a contingency for when Dispel Magic removes your spell armor mid-combat doesn't hurt, either.)

See, this is the reason why I wanted to lower my ASF in the 1st place. I'm sure I'll get anti magic field later & I just picked globe of invulerability, lesser at Fig2/Wiz6/Ss1 (CL9) as one of my two 4th level spells. I had thoughy Abjurant Champions would ultimately become the best PrC for me...but I didn't want to get caught with my greaves down in a fight with arcane casters on my level or more powerful.

Nope. You guys are right. In any way I look at it, Fighter 2/Wizard 6/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion X is my best bet.

I still wish I could gain acess to the Spellsword's Spell Strike class feature though. Maybe later, when I gain new feats I can get craft magical arms & armor, I can make myself a longsword of spell strike. Or go back to Spellsword after I get all the spells I want (If I survive! DMs got in in for me now...) & just get the rest of those class features.

[Boogaloo Shiest]

+1 to what Eldariel said.

And yea, anyway, as I said: Friends don't let friends play with a DoMT.

Ha! The guy who was in charge of party loot won't surrender the ltreasure list either. Other players have allready told me that they intend on drawing from the DoMT as soon as possible.

I figure they'll either get lucky or tired of building new characters. My old DMs thoughts on artifacts like the DoMT should be a one time thing & I agree.

[Eldariel]

I still wish I could gain acess to the Spellsword's Spell Strike class feature though. Maybe later, when I gain new feats I can get craft magical arms & armor, I can make myself a longsword of spell strike. Or go back to Spellsword after I get all the spells I want (If I survive! DMs got in in for me now...) & just get the rest of those class features.

You can pick up "Smiting Spell"-feat from PHBII for a solid approximation. +1 Metamagic which allows you to effectively get spells trigger on attacks. With your build, you can't really get enough Spellsword levels to get the Spellstrike without losing too much. You've already lost so many caster levels to your Fighter-levels; you can't really afford to lose more.