OOTS #801 - The Discussion Thread [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

faustin

2011-08-16, 06:19 AM

Uauh! It´s just me, or Elan´s competence has been improved a lot since previous strips? He even outsmarts Nale repeatedly!

-TWO bad guys split up to take down ONE good guy (do the math)
-Elan's not using puns in his fight
-Amun-Zora didn't think it odd Elan grew a goatee in three seconds (though she just may be vengeful at anyone related to Tarquin)

-They don´t see Elan as a serious treat in fight after being so energy-drained by Sabine.
-I accept this one.
-Amun-Zora has been tortured by days and his rational mind is too overtaken by rage to notice the goatee or the clothes change. Besides, the twin thing is even more unbelievable.

RecklessFable

2011-08-16, 06:21 AM

Yay, the bard leveraged drama as a combat asset! :smalltongue:

RMS Oceanic

2011-08-16, 06:21 AM

It's interesting that Nale seems to have gone straight to the Empire of Blood after assembling a new team. Could it be that either he knows what his father knows about Girard, or merely that he knows that his father knows and wants to know what he knows? :smallsmile:

I like that Nale's massive ego is showing again. No, it couldn't be a coincidence that Elan meets up with his Father, it has to be a plot against him.

Tetsujin-28

2011-08-16, 06:22 AM

Three things that don't make sense about this comic:

-TWO bad guys split up to take down ONE good guy (do the math)
-Elan's not using puns in his fight
-Amun-Zora didn't think it odd Elan grew a goatee in three seconds (though she just may be vengeful at anyone related to Tarquin)

-They split up so they can find him. Elan was drained of a few levels, so they thought they could take him down one against one.
-He could of lost his Dancing Swordsman levels due to Sabine's level drain, or he was too focused on asking Nale why they're ambushing them to make puns.
-Look at panel 9, you only see Elan's upper face through the jail window. You don't see his chin. So, the lady didn't see his lack of goatee.

Andre

2011-08-16, 06:22 AM

If this fight didn't have a dominated character already, I'd say she's easily Suggestion material.

-He could of lost his Dancing Swordsman levels due to Sabine's level drain, or he was too focused on asking Nale why they're ambushing them to make puns.
-Look at panel 9, you only see Elan's upper face through the jail window. You don't see his chin. So, the lady didn't see his lack of goatee.

You don't "lose" levels. Negative levels means an array of penalties, and losing spell levels.

She saw he didn't have a goatee when he was standing between her and Tarquin, but she's probably too enraged to notice.

gibbo88

2011-08-16, 06:23 AM

Woohoo! Go Elan, work that karma.

fibonacciseries

2011-08-16, 06:25 AM

This was just hilarious!!!!
I'm surprised no one predicted that we'd see her again.
Doesn't Nale know better than to split up in this sort of situation? They're much more vulnerable when they're by themselves than they are when they're together.
Also, we appear to finally have solid proof that the mysterious scrying (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html) was done by Z, as Nale seems to have solid proof that a week ago, the Order was in the middle of the desert, which surprises Elan.

somethingrandom

2011-08-16, 06:28 AM

-Amun-Zora didn't think it odd Elan grew a goatee in three seconds (though she just may be vengeful at anyone related to Tarquin)

When she saw elan though the window in the cell door it looks like she could not see if elan had a goatee or not.

Fitzclowningham

2011-08-16, 06:29 AM

Guess we know now that scry in the desert was from Z.

Wonder what the LG was hiding from?

Also, Z knew the OoTS were in the city. Why didn't he tell Nale?

Yendor

2011-08-16, 06:29 AM

Yay! I was hoping they'd get around to freeing Amun-Zora sooner or later.

EDIT: Just noticed Elan handing the sword out for her. :smallsmile:

Mordaenor

2011-08-16, 06:31 AM

Ummm... did Nale just admit to being connected with the Floating Eye in the desert?

CoffeeIncluded

2011-08-16, 06:32 AM

Well, I guess the floating eye thing is confirmed.

The Succubus

2011-08-16, 06:32 AM

I love the penultimate panel where Elan casually hands Amun-zora a sword from behind the door.....:smalltongue:

Gandariel

2011-08-16, 06:33 AM

heheheh, nice job, elan! great comic!

JoseB

2011-08-16, 06:36 AM

I love Elan in a "best buddies", non-sexual way, not that there is nothing wrong with the alternative... :smallbiggrin:

Also, it's good to see Amun-Zora again. Her reaction reminds me a bit of what happened during the first fight between the OotS and the Linear Guild (when Roy was fighting Thog, and Elan Nale, and Nale decided to switch opponents... Not a very good idea, as then Roy was able to unleash his repressed anger towards Elan on a target he actually could attack).

RMS Oceanic

2011-08-16, 06:36 AM

Ummm... did Nale just admit to being connected with the Floating Eye in the desert?

Yes. In fact I'd like to revise my previous LG timeline:

- Escape from Azure City
- Recruit a new team
- Go to Shojo's Co-ordinates and discover Girard's message
- Sneak into EoB for his own purposes

As for being there, I expand on two possible motives: Either he knows/suspects that Tarquin has information about the Gate (or has Girard), or he decided he needs the resources of the EoB and was just plotting a straight up coup. My gut instinct leans towards the first scenario.

CloakedDancer

2011-08-16, 06:42 AM

I'm really starting to feel like Elan raised his intelligence... :smalltongue:

Sagonene

2011-08-16, 06:42 AM

Long time reader, first time poster.

My first thought was 'Huh, never had Karma work out in my favor before.

Nice callback... loved the new comic but the joke at the end caught me off guard.

Dandria

2011-08-16, 06:57 AM

Ok, now who is this guy and what did he do to the true Elan?

Nha, just kidding. Actually, I'm happy to see our favorite bard finally getting something done: it truly shows how much he has improved since the first comics.

Go, Elan, kick his blonde, evil butt!

-Amun-Zora didn't think it odd Elan grew a goatee in three seconds (though she just may be vengeful at anyone related to Tarquin)

Well, she didn't think it was strange that someone handed her over a sword from behind the door or that "Elan" freed her at all. She clearly mad as hell.

faustin

2011-08-16, 07:03 AM

Edhelras

2011-08-16, 07:04 AM

Ha-ha, that was just SO funny!

A real slap-stick comedy. Good, for a change...

MagusBloodsoak

2011-08-16, 07:08 AM

energy drain can do anything in this comic, didn't you know that?

:smallannoyed:

Seriously though, it'll be interesting to see where the Linear Guild goes from here. I'm certainly looking forward to this sidequest wrapping up soonish.

Mesoni

2011-08-16, 07:08 AM

I'm really starting to feel like Elan raised his intelligence... :smalltongue:

i don't know... Seems to me he did not take any damage from falling headfirst to that lizardpersons helmet :)

hamishspence

2011-08-16, 07:09 AM

You don't "lose" levels. Negative levels means an array of penalties, and losing spell levels.

True, but 24 hours later, if they fail the save, they will lose levels as well.

kojar

2011-08-16, 07:13 AM

Wow, the first time I post in a discussion thread with only one page.

Also: great comic.

lothos

2011-08-16, 07:14 AM

Nice..... Good use of available resources by Elan.

So.... if it was Nale / Sabine / Z / someone else in the Linear guild doing the scrying in strip 698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), presumably they know where Girard falsely said the gate was to Soon. Presumably "Elan" heard it from Shojo in strips 378 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html) and 798 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0798.html).

Otherwise it means that someone else was scrying on them too... or it means that the Linear Guild found the co-ordinates from some other source that had the same location Soon had from Girard.. if that last option is the case, perhaps the gate really is at the location they searched at.... hmmmmmmmm.

Can't wait to find out more.

Shatteredtower

2011-08-16, 07:18 AM

Everything about this strip was wonderful. Improvising on the fly to make use of his Charisma (Diplomacy for recruiting, and when that fails, a most hilarious Bluff), paying attention to the details his brother spilled in conversation, hiding behind the door with ready weapon at hand...

A merry chase, Elan. A most merry chase indeed. The Roadrunner himself could not have done so well.

Wanda V'Orcus

2011-08-16, 07:29 AM

Where are the Flumph guards?

ROFL! That would've been AWESOME!! :smallbiggrin:

But somehow I doubt that a Lawful Good flumph would be employed within a Lawful Evil empire...?? :smallconfused:

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

Mauve Shirt

2011-08-16, 07:39 AM

I love it when Elan is effective. :smallbiggrin:

Nightfall

2011-08-16, 07:39 AM

I love the penultimate panel where Elan casually hands Amun-zora a sword from behind the door.....:smalltongue:

That was my favorite part as well. Great comic, Giant. :smallsmile:

Krim

2011-08-16, 07:42 AM

Kaytara

2011-08-16, 07:42 AM

She saw he didn't have a goatee when he was standing between her and Tarquin, but she's probably too enraged to notice.

That was days ago, wasn't it? Besides, this is a place where magic can grow hair instantly. So, you know.

Timeless Error

2011-08-16, 07:42 AM

Nice one! Very clever, Elan.

:smalleek: Who would have thought anyone would ever call Elan clever?

King of Nowhere

2011-08-16, 07:46 AM

Amun-Zora failed a reality check. She's never been a realistic threath to Tarquin in the first place.

But very nice swap indeed

bengator

2011-08-16, 07:56 AM

Since i am comically challenged, can someone link to amun zora's first appearance?

Edit: many thanks bedinsis. I remember now!

Bedinsis

2011-08-16, 07:58 AM

Captain Amun-Zora to the rescue!

Here you go (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html) Bengator.

Name Lips

2011-08-16, 07:59 AM

mucco

2011-08-16, 08:05 AM

:nale: "Last week, you're hundreds of miles away in the middle of the desert-"

Even Elan noticed this. Who's given Nale this info? The only thing we've seen that has spotted them in the desert is the green scrying sensor. It is settled that it was Girard's magic.

The only person who has to gain from yet another brother-brother fight is Tarquin, though. It is well within his possibilities that he knew of Nale being there, because of Thog; with that, it's also possible that he was able to manipulate the information available to Nale. It just fits with his character that he lets his two sons battle it out while Nale would have wanted to kill Tarquin instead.

Plus, Tarquin knows about Girard. I'm starting to think the two might be very close, and working together. Maybe they could even be the same person but that would be a very big stretch.

Every strip I read, Tarquin becomes more and more similar to Hans Landa of Inglourious Basterds. :smallbiggrin:

Kingscourt

2011-08-16, 08:05 AM

Great update! Glad to see Elan being a lot better at handling combat now.

Also, I'm in the camp Elan didn't use a pun because he wanted to get information from his brother, because energy drain doesn't take away class abilities.

On another another note, I'm pretty sure Amun-Zora didn't see Nale and think, 'Hey you grew a goatee since the last time I saw you! That can only mean you're a twin and I shouldn't attack you'

Antonok

2011-08-16, 08:05 AM

I think they're pretending the level drain took away his Dashing Swordsman levels, which is why he isn't punning. I know level drain doesn't work that way, but it wouldn't be the first time rules were ignored in favor of drama.

Or it could have simply been a case of there being more important things to be said in the very short confrontation.

Brennan1214

2011-08-16, 08:08 AM

Actually, Elan´s effectiveness increases when he is alone and/or forced to rely on his own abilities.

Which is weird, because a Bard's class abilities are mainly buffing and some healing.

pendell

2011-08-16, 08:10 AM

*Giggles madly*

Well, it's about time it finally worked out. That last panel was comedy GOLD!

Respectfully,

Brian P.

SamBurke

2011-08-16, 08:16 AM

Oh boy. Did not think that was "bound to happen..." Love the pun there, though. It's reaaaaaal subtle.

Blackcloak

2011-08-16, 08:16 AM

Looks like Elan is using his intelligence this time! :)

warmachine

2011-08-16, 08:18 AM

Superb trick. And the woman doesn't ask why there's a convenient sword.

The Pilgrim

2011-08-16, 08:18 AM

I haven't laughed that much in a LOT of time!!!

Release the Bull right into the nose of your enemy, while hiding behind the barrier and handling her a weapon!

Elan showing one of his rare sparks of genius.

hamishspence

2011-08-16, 08:19 AM

Burner28

2011-08-16, 08:39 AM

Well, I guess Amun-Zora is back:smalltongue:

Garwain

2011-08-16, 08:54 AM

i don't know... Seems to me he did not take any damage from falling headfirst to that lizardpersons helmet :)

If you think about it, Elan is lucky to headbut the guard instead of the other way around... He could have suffered 1d4 damage from the spiked helmet.

Belsirk

2011-08-16, 08:57 AM

had problem reading the last panel on the comic..... TOOO MUCH laguh before that!!!

Great comic!

JoseB

2011-08-16, 08:58 AM

Does the present-day color of Zz'dtri's magic match the color of the scrying sensor?

Comparing the latest Zz'dtri's dweomer here (#800) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html) with the dweomer that accompanied the scrying eye in strip #698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), I am of the opinion that yes, the colours do match.

If there is any difference, I attribute it to transparencies over a differently-coloured background.

I think that the balance of probabilities is that, yes, it was Zz'dtri who was scrying on the OotS in the middle of the desert.

Lvl45DM!

2011-08-16, 08:59 AM

Genius, Genius GENIUS!

I think Elan wasn't punning cos...he couldn't come up with a pun. Go on come up with a pun for the situation I dare you.
And it seems the Giant specifically drew elans face in the cell door so as to conceal any goatee or lack thereof making it plausible that Amun goes for Nale. I'm more impressed he managed to sneak by the two combatants without Nale noticing

wzeller

2011-08-16, 09:05 AM

She saw he didn't have a goatee when he was standing between her and Tarquin, but she's probably too enraged to notice.

Anybody who has had a beard and shaved it, or grown one anew can attest: People really don't tend to notice right away.

I had a full beard for ten years. Many people I knew had never seen me without it. Then I shaved the whole thing off. Maybe 1 person in 5 noticed right away. Most looked at me strangely for a few minutes before figuring out what had changed, sometimes even asking me if something was different.

Then, while away on vacation, I grew a goatee. (Which is why I chose this posting avatar.:smallcool:) When I returned, it was the same thing all over again.

I found it all highly entertaining.

So for her to notice the beard and stop her attack to wonder if maybe there's a twin around would have been highly unbeleivable.

warmachine

2011-08-16, 09:09 AM

Lvl45DM!

2011-08-16, 09:12 AM

D&D definitely needs a mechanic for serendipity, such as landing on a convenient guard. Bards would definitely have it. In my opinion, it would help with the linear warrior, quadratic wizard problem. The spellcaster players rely on their spells, other suggest fortuitous events and have luck save the day.

That would work for bards. It would suck butt for any DM to make work and for fighters it wouldn't fit the flavour but it would be cool for bards. Take your idea to the Homebrew board my good man!

Ekul

2011-08-16, 09:13 AM

After all those negative levels, it's no wonder he failed his balance check. I wonder if he has balance trained...

Aerysil

2011-08-16, 09:15 AM

The ad hoc plan was just silly and crazy enough to work.

Go Elan!

Dr.Epic

2011-08-16, 09:17 AM

energy drain can do anything in this comic, didn't you know that?

No it can't. The only thing that can do anything a writer wants in a comic is radiation that that only applies during the Golden and Silver Age of Comics. Learn your comic history people!

Thomar_of_Uointer

2011-08-16, 09:28 AM

Wow, it's astonishing that Nale doesn't have a plan for this. I'm sure he's coming up with one right now, but it'll be interesting to see how he thinks on his feet.

t209

2011-08-16, 09:29 AM

Nice Comic! Best since the kobold based weapon used by V

joela

2011-08-16, 09:32 AM

Dang. Elan's definitely evolved into a *gasp* competent hero :smallcool:

137beth

2011-08-16, 09:35 AM

Wow, Nale isn't smart enough to realize that Elan isn't smart enough to have tracked him?

baerdith

2011-08-16, 09:36 AM

Which is weird, because a Bard's class abilities are mainly buffing and some healing.

Blasphemer!

Seriously, the Bard is the ultimate class. He's part everything: some fighter, some rogue, some wizard, some cleric. A Bard is THE solo class....

Wanda V'Orcus

2011-08-16, 09:39 AM

Comparing the latest Zz'dtri's dweomer here (#800) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0800.html) with the dweomer that accompanied the scrying eye in strip #698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), I am of the opinion that yes, the colours do match.

If there is any difference, I attribute it to transparencies over a differently-coloured background.

I think that the balance of probabilities is that, yes, it was Zz'dtri who was scrying on the OotS in the middle of the desert.

:vaarsuvius: I concur with Sir JoseB's analysis of said arcane emanations. :vaarsuvius:

Cheers, JohnH / Wanda

Umberhulk

2011-08-16, 09:45 AM

Actually, Elan´s effectiveness increases when he is alone and/or forced to rely on his own abilities.

And he has to save Haley.

Jay R

2011-08-16, 09:55 AM

Wow, Nale isn't smart enough to realize that Elan isn't smart enough to have tracked him?

It's not a question of "smart enough". Nale's' ego always trumps his brains.

Nale is egotistical enough that he never considers the possibility that he isn't on everyone's mind at all times. Besides, he knows the whole Order of the Stick is here,so Elan wouldn't have done the tracking anyway.

willpell

2011-08-16, 10:00 AM

Actually, Elan´s effectiveness increases when he is alone and/or forced to rely on his own abilities.

This is doubtlessly no coincidence. If the OOTS had players, Elan would be the Social Gamer of the bunch, more interested in hanging with his buddies than in pwning d00ds or getting his power trip on; when the other PCs are around he's content to coast and do goofy bard stuff for his own amusement while they haul most of the weight. But when separated from the group, he has to step up to the plate and do as much as he can manage, in order to survive, escape, and reunite with the group, whereupon he can go back to coasting and turning off his brain. It's a brilliant bit of meta-characterization, really.

On a distinctly less brilliant note, was I the only one who saw the strip title "Bound to Happen" and thought it would involve Belkar and his Ring of Jumping?

Mutant Sheep

2011-08-16, 10:01 AM

Nice Comic! Best since the kobold based weapon used by V
I agree. Best one since the last one! :smallbiggrin:

Genius, Genius GENIUS!
I think Elan wasn't punning cos...he couldn't come up with a pun. Go on come up with a pun for the situation I dare you.
And it seems the Giant specifically drew elans face in the cell door so as to conceal any goatee or lack thereof making it plausible that Amun goes for Nale. I'm more impressed he managed to sneak by the two combatants without Nale noticing.

Umm...yeah I got nothing pun-wise.

And with the sneaking past, 30ft. per round movement rate. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0389.html) :smallwink: (It can work on PC's too. Less effective, but works.)

Also, augh! Nale looks badass! Make it stop Giant!

@v Are you saying the good Captain Zora is Sabine in disguise? And the Sabine we just saw was actually Celia?

Tundar

2011-08-16, 10:05 AM

This story arc just keeps getting better and better.

Karma is indeed a bitch. And a black haired, angry one too.

Whiffet

2011-08-16, 10:15 AM

I love it. :smallbiggrin: I especially love how Elan just hands her the sword from behind the door. Poor Nale has no idea what's going on right now.

M.A.D

2011-08-16, 10:18 AM

Interesting.. I always thought that Elan was capable only when it comes to situations that his Charisma was involved, like when he seduced Sabine. I think today's strip is the only exception

Rastaban

2011-08-16, 10:27 AM

Think of the poor lizard fellow minding his own business!

Great comic Giant!

Mutant Sheep

2011-08-16, 10:38 AM

Think of the poor lizard fellow minding his own business!

Great comic Giant!

Don't worry, he read the Manual. That was a fake-guard balloon. :smallwink: The real guard is getting the magical hit squad. :smallcool:

Rai Thunder

2011-08-16, 10:46 AM

I feel kinda bad for her though. Let's hope she has a high will save or it's unlikely Nale will have to do much Suggesting to turn her against Elan if/when she can see the two of them.

narwhal97

2011-08-16, 10:46 AM

My first thought was 'Huh, never had Karma work out in my favor before.

Nice callback... loved the new comic but the joke at the end caught me off guard.

Elan's already pulled a karma joke (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html) in a face-off with Nale!

The only person who has to gain from yet another brother-brother fight is Tarquin, though. It is well within his possibilities that he knew of Nale being there, because of Thog; with that, it's also possible that he was able to manipulate the information available to Nale. It just fits with his character that he lets his two sons battle it out while Nale would have wanted to kill Tarquin instead.

But in this twin fight there is, of course, a chance of Elan dying, which would steal Tarquin's ending for his best story ever (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html). Would he want to take the chance of Nale, a disorganized buffoon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html), stealing his dramatic ending by setting them up in a brotherly duel?

Fantastic comic, though! Way to go, Elan. :smallsmile:

legomaster00156

2011-08-16, 10:52 AM

Heh. It's about time NALE is the one framed.

Doug Lampert

2011-08-16, 10:56 AM

Doesn't Nale know better than to split up in this sort of situation? They're much more vulnerable when they're by themselves than they are when they're together.
Nale's excessively elaborate plans ALWAYS involve splitting up.

It's characteristic of him, it provides dozens of extra low probability failure modes for his plans. (Note: The exact reason Nale's plans fail is usually something unpredictable, but the shear number of moving parts assures a failure even if his status as a villian in a universe largely ruled by dramatic convention weren't already doing so.)

They NEED to intercept Elan and prevent him from getting help at any cost. It's not just the OotS they are afraid of, if Elan escapes and shows up with Tarquin and/or Malack, the Linear Guild are toast.

That to.

Which is weird, because a Bard's class abilities are mainly buffing and some healing.

When the group is arround he sings, and everyone gets bonuses, and no one notices how big the Bard's contribution is. Just like in a real game!

DougL

evillemming

2011-08-16, 11:02 AM

Elan using his brain, and Nale being framed. Things are really turning around for the Order. :smallsmile:

MoonCat

2011-08-16, 11:03 AM

Lovely Giant, lovely. Elan really is getting much better than the buffoon who attacked his own reflection, or the idiot who sang about Belkar's curse.

EvilSnail

2011-08-16, 11:07 AM

Wow that was smart, I think somewhere between strips Elan must have found item grantin bonus to intelligence ability :elan:

Soranar

2011-08-16, 11:21 AM

Elan is a walking disaster to anyone around him so it makes sense that he is at his most efficient when his allies are nowhere near him.

He's the proverbial spanner in the works, very hard to aim in the right direction but when he's surrounded, and alone, he's invincible.

sims796

2011-08-16, 11:26 AM

I was wondering what those three was up too.

It looks like the Order may defeat the Linear Guild with their own power. That'll be nice. The less outside help, the better.

HandofShadows

2011-08-16, 11:29 AM

Elan is getting better. And he got that Nale was watching the Order. I wonder if the Guild will finally be destroyed this time around. Things are turning around now.

WickedWizard17

2011-08-16, 11:30 AM

OMFG LMAO. That was my reaction :smallwink: But I'm so happy to see Elan! It's been . . . five strips since we saw him last! And I'm so pleased to see that he's gotten better in a fight - him handing Amun-Zora the sword? Classic! In regard to the lack of puns, I think he was just too distracted. Level draining doesn't work that way. Plus, it's obvious the mysterious scrying eye was Z's.

WickedWizard17

2011-08-16, 11:41 AM

North_Ranger

2011-08-16, 11:46 AM

Also, has anyone else noticed the change in Nale's goatee? It used to be a neat 'n perfect triangle thingie, but now it's more messy. Symbolic of his time spent hiding out? Or maybe he picked up a level of Pirate to further complicate his build and make himself even MORE incompetent :smallwink:

I think it's just an art shift. I mean, we haven't seen Nale since the Battle of Azure City, and that was how many real-time years ago again? Also, I remember the Cliffport City Police sketch artist drawing a comic of him with a more scraggly beard instead of a clean-cut little soul patch.

Snails

2011-08-16, 12:10 PM

Nale's excessively elaborate plans ALWAYS involve splitting up.

It's characteristic of him, it provides dozens of extra low probability failure modes for his plans. (Note: The exact reason Nale's plans fail is usually something unpredictable, but the shear number of moving parts assures a failure even if his status as a villian in a universe largely ruled by dramatic convention weren't already doing so.)

One the nose, with respect to Nale's plans. In fact, I suspect Nale actually thinks of many low probability failure modes as one of the key characteristics of a really great plan. The extreme would be the switcheroo gambit, where Nale seemed to relish piling up failure modes up to the very moment of perfect total collapse.

As for splitting up here, it would be illogical to not split up. Elan is not a physical threat. Nale should keep the quarry moving and Sabine should use her better mobility to box Elan in.

The reason Nale failed here is that Elan cleverly found a non-Order temporary ally. But hurriedly traveling with a succubus in a city could have elicited the same response anyway. Finding Elan quickly was their best hope.

rewinn

2011-08-16, 12:13 PM

Nice callback to the last panel of 435 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html)...

Doesn't Nale know better than to split up in this sort of situation?On the evidence, no - after all, splitting up is a much more complicated plan!

-Amun-Zora didn't think it odd Elan grew a goatee in three seconds
It's an evil goatee, so she might not be surprised Elan grew one.

i don't know... Seems to me he did not take any damage from falling headfirst to that lizardpersons helmet :)

He landed on his HEAD - not necessarily his most vital organ ;-)

Karma is indeed a bitch. And a black haired, angry one too.
That's T-shirt worthy right there!

Gift Jeraff

2011-08-16, 12:22 PM

It's an art shift; we're supposed to pretend he's always looked like that.He also has the scruffy goatee in SSaDT, during Roy's story.
Wow, it's astonishing that Nale doesn't have a plan for this. I'm sure he's coming up with one right now, but it'll be interesting to see how he thinks on his feet.We've seen him improvise decently before, when he turned the "can't speak right" thing to his advantage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html).

the_tick_rules

2011-08-16, 12:34 PM

Did the OOTS just get lucky? Won't last.

ScrapperTBP

2011-08-16, 12:41 PM

Great comic. Oh Elan you genius :P

Blaznak

2011-08-16, 01:09 PM

Hahahahahaaa :)

Craft (Cheese)

2011-08-16, 01:37 PM

alone, he's invisible.

Fixed that for you :P

Karoug

2011-08-16, 01:38 PM

Long-time reader, first post.

Doesn't Elan strongly remind you of Guybrush Threepwood?
I mean, both of them are blond, swashbuckling types, using puns in combat. As characters they are good natured, incurably optimistic, totally oblivious to almost any important situation around them.
Each has an everlasting vendetta against their brother, and is in a relationship with a red-head rogue who can put up with their insanity.
Perhaps most importanty: while fighting the good fight, and ,more often than not, win doing crazy awesome things, they spend 99% of their time accidentally creating disaster.

It all came as a flash when I saw Elan's 'Uh-oh' panel. I'm sure I have seen Guybrush pulling the exact same 'uh-oh' expression, I think somewhere in the third game (Curse of Monkey Island).

snikrept

2011-08-16, 01:41 PM

So the mystery scrying in the desert was Zz'dtri!

Holy_Knight

2011-08-16, 01:43 PM

Lovely Giant, lovely. Elan really is getting much better than the buffoon who attacked his own reflection, or the idiot who sang about Belkar's curse.
I don't know, I always kind of figured he did that one on purpose. :smalltongue:

voiceofreason

2011-08-16, 02:04 PM

Interesting there isn't a Luck mechanic in D&D. Elan reminds me of someone who found a grey stone at the bottom of the Gnomish Mines. Love this story!

raymundo

2011-08-16, 02:28 PM

Three things that don't make sense about this comic:

-TWO bad guys split up to take down ONE good guy (do the math)
-Elan's not using puns in his fight
-Amun-Zora didn't think it odd Elan grew a goatee in three seconds (though she just may be vengeful at anyone related to Tarquin)

Well.. Quite likely he lost his Dashing Swordman levels due to the level drain attack.
As I understood, she didn't even see his whole face, besides she is a little bit angered.

Edit: Given that this was mentioned about a dozen times, I'd add a "Good job with this strip!" for some nutrional value of this post.

Gilphon

2011-08-16, 02:38 PM

That's not how Energy Drain works. You lose spell levels and your attacks rolls suffer, but you don't actually lose any class features or anything unless you fail a will save the next day.

Cerlis

2011-08-16, 02:41 PM

yea, the only thing you can see from the cell is Elan's eyes. cant see goatee or cloths.

Vectner

2011-08-16, 02:43 PM

Elan's effectiveness is definitely situational, but he has become more confident since the split in the last book. He still makes errors and trusts a bit too much.

I think charging in the third panel was probably a bad idea, it just ended up working out for him. Elan is serendipitous that way.

Draconi Redfir

2011-08-16, 02:45 PM

Heh heh heh, clever Elan. Clever:smallcool:

tcrudisi

2011-08-16, 03:12 PM

I'm more impressed he managed to sneak by the two combatants without Nale noticing

Especially since he didn't take off his clothes turn invisible.

Vemynal

2011-08-16, 03:14 PM

awesome as always lol

Lurkmoar

2011-08-16, 03:26 PM

Nothing softens the impact of a fall like a warm body between you and the ground eh?

Nice strip.

gamephil

2011-08-16, 03:31 PM

That's not how Energy Drain works. You lose spell levels and your attacks rolls suffer, but you don't actually lose any class features or anything unless you fail a will save the next day.

To be fair, that's not the way they work now, but the universe did update from 2nd to 3rd edition in the middle of an adventure (admittedly a long, long time ago), so maybe Sabine's level drain was rolled back to the previous patch :)

Anarion

2011-08-16, 04:09 PM

I liked the punchline of this comic, and I'm particularly pleased to see Elan acting competently. The fact that he uses his bardic training to look for someone unjustly imprisoned and that he's paying attention to Nale and realizes that something is amiss shows the variety of his character (namely that he likes acting childish but really has matured as he can be effective when it matters).

There is something about this comic, however, that bothers me. I can't quite put my finger on it, but the pacing feels off somehow. Maybe because Nale splits up, Elan charges, falls, then frees Amun-Zora so quickly in succession. It's also possible that this strip will flow better either with the next strip or in the context of the book, but things felt like they moved too quickly here.

Edit: About the rules discussion. It's highly unlikely that Sabine's level drain could affect Elan's dashing swordsman abilities. It would require a completely houseruled change to the way negative levels work. I think it's far more likely that Elan either quips off panel or is somehow trying to gather info in the middle of the battle, foregoing his quip bonus to interrogate Nale while the fight. Another possibility is that his subconscious bardic training told him it would be better for the story if he didn't quip when he charged.

Arcran

2011-08-16, 04:18 PM

Die Nale, die!

Ridureyu

2011-08-16, 04:20 PM

If that woman dies, there shall be many "Elan is evil" threads.

BobVosh

2011-08-16, 04:54 PM

Brennan1214

2011-08-16, 04:56 PM

Seriously, the Bard is the ultimate class. He's part everything: some fighter, some rogue, some wizard, some cleric. A Bard is THE solo class....

Uh, no.

Fighter: No feats and the BAB of an NPC class.

Rogue: Just skill points.

Wizard: The only wizard bit is the classification (Arcane) of their spells.

Cleric: Uh, which IS buffing and healing.

Kato

2011-08-16, 04:58 PM

Thanks for the comic, Giant.

Uhm... well, lucky Elan, I guess... so, the scry spell was Nale's? :smallconfused:

MoonCat

2011-08-16, 04:59 PM

Thanks for the comic, Giant.

Uhm... well, lucky Elan, I guess... so, the scry spell was Nale's? :smallconfused:

No, it was Z's. Nale's dewomer is yellow.

Scarlet Knight

2011-08-16, 05:08 PM

:elan: Karma-rific!

This made me really laugh! And it's the second time Nale got someone wanting to beat the tar out of him for looking like Elan!

JSSheridan

2011-08-16, 05:09 PM

Thanks Giant!

St Fan

2011-08-16, 05:21 PM

There is something about this comic, however, that bothers me. I can't quite put my finger on it, but the pacing feels off somehow. Maybe because Nale splits up, Elan charges, falls, then frees Amun-Zora so quickly in succession. It's also possible that this strip will flow better either with the next strip or in the context of the book, but things felt like they moved too quickly here.

I noticed too that this comic was quite fast-paced, but I don't see that as a bad thing.

This is a swashbuckling action sequence. If it was in a cinematic format, it would be quite fast-paced too. Elan and Nale fight over a ledge, Elan falls, he has no time to lose getting stunned or confused because his brother is seconds away from jumping down on him, he search for a way to escape or get some help, pick up the key and sword from the lizardfolk guard off-panel...

All the action we see is reduced to the essential, there's no lul and anything extraneous is just implied. The final result is that it looks like Elan got very good at thinking on the fly... it's not just that he has an excellent idea to deal with his twin, it's how fast he implements it that is impressive. And this need to be conveyed by a very fast-paced comic. It could have been shown as a two-pager, but the slower pacing would have been detrimental to the humor and the action-movie feel.

And yes, I liked the comic, for those who didn't guess.

Sagonene

2011-08-16, 05:33 PM

Elan's already pulled a karma joke (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0067.html) in a face-off with Nale!

But in this twin fight there is, of course, a chance of Elan dying, which would steal Tarquin's ending for his best story ever (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0763.html). Would he want to take the chance of Nale, a disorganized buffoon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html), stealing his dramatic ending by setting them up in a brotherly duel?

Fantastic comic, though! Way to go, Elan. :smallsmile:

Ha! I'd forgotten that one... I was thinking of a couple of comics after stopping an assassination attempt on Hinjo and right before a declaration of barefoot godhood.

Silva Stormrage

2011-08-16, 05:48 PM

That was just perfect :smallamused:. I check back randomly after a important test and get to see Nale get what was coming to him.

I especially like how Elan was trying to justify him defending tarquin to her :smallbiggrin:.

KoboldRevenge

2011-08-16, 06:43 PM

I wonder if shes gonna hold her own against Nale. I believe she has a name somewhere. And a back story. Maybe plot armor will protect her...

dps

2011-08-16, 07:12 PM

Oh man, this one was funny! :smallsmile:

Red XIV

2011-08-16, 07:12 PM

Oh Elan, why is your competence only situational?
Because he's Elan.

Uauh! It´s just me, or Elan´s competence has been improved a lot since previous strips? He even outsmarts Nale repeatedly!
Everybody outsmarts Nale. Including Nale.

I wonder if shes gonna hold her own against Nale. I believe she has a name somewhere. And a back story. Maybe plot armor will protect her...
She's most likely a Fighter, and Nale is a victim of very unfavorable multiclassing. She also for some reason still has her armor, despite being in prison. I think Amun-Zora will be at the very least a credible threat.

Dancing_Fox

2011-08-16, 07:44 PM

So, uh, no pun in this comic title? "Bound to Happen."

I was expecting someone to be tied up, at the very least.

Archwizard

2011-08-16, 08:32 PM

If that woman dies, there shall be many "Elan is evil" threads.

All too true.

Definitely go Elan.

Thanks, Giant, for everything.

Ulysses WkAmil

2011-08-16, 08:54 PM

I wonder if Amun-Zora will be able do disengage with Nale without getting killed...

Conuly

2011-08-16, 09:28 PM

I think somewhere between strips Elan must have found item grantin bonus to intelligence ability

Or, as he said at dinner with his Dad, he's simply started thinking once in a while. Thinking about things, even a little bit, is bound to help how smart he appears and acts.

He even outsmarts Nale repeatedly!

Well, Nale isn't actually that bright. I mean, he's not an utter dimwit, and it's hard to imagine him running around naked on the grounds that it made him invisible, but he's not nearly as clever as he thinks.

The Pilgrim

2011-08-16, 09:29 PM

Even if he happens to win the upper hand against Amun-Zora, Nale has more urgent things to do than to deal with someone who has mistaken him as the son of Tarquin*. Like, stopping his twin from spoiling his grand plans.

*I mean, mistaken him as the OTHER son of Tarquin... not that Amun-Zora really cares wich son of Tarquin she gets to kill, of course.

Holy_Knight

2011-08-16, 09:54 PM

*I mean, mistaken him as the OTHER son of Tarquin... not that Amun-Zora really cares wich son of Tarquin she gets to kill, of course.
She might if she figures out that one of them wants to KILL Tarquin instead of aid him... the enemy of my enemy, and all that.

turkishproverb

2011-08-16, 09:58 PM

...

that was hillarious. Thanks.

StClair

2011-08-16, 10:17 PM

I'm still trying to figure out how level drain works under the current rules. Back in the day (1st edition?), when a level-draining monster hit you, they were just gone, right off the top, latest ones first. If you survived and didn't get turned into an undead monster, you had to make them back the regular way.

Such monsters were (justly) feared - not just because of their immunities, but because they basically ate/undid play time. Weeks and/or months of it.

irenicObserver

2011-08-16, 10:49 PM

Come on Nale, overestimating Elan's intelligence again? How did he now Elan was in the desert though? Hmmm...He knew where they were looking from his impersonation of Elan right?EDIT: Oh wait, Z, nevermind

Snails

2011-08-16, 10:53 PM

She's most likely a Fighter, and Nale is a victim of very unfavorable multiclassing. She also for some reason still has her armor, despite being in prison. I think Amun-Zora will be at the very least a credible threat.

She may not realize it yet, but isn't she the fiancee of Tarquin? So she is much less likely to be stripped down and treated like a typical prisoner. She is just locked up to be given a chance to "calm down", so to speak...

Given that the number of levels seem to correlate with social status, Amun-Zora is probably pretty competent. Not a match for Tarquin, but it would not be surprising if she is a close match for Nale.

with an e

2011-08-16, 10:57 PM

I'm still trying to figure out how level drain works under the current rules.
Well, I don't know about current (4.0) rules, but because OotS mostly follows 3.5 rules, you can read the 3.5 version on the SRD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels

Basically, you get hit by a bunch of penalties that simulate losing a level. After 24 hours, you make a fortitude save against each negative level (DC depends on how the negative level got applied). For each save you fail, you lose an actual level.

rbetieh

2011-08-16, 11:17 PM

You know....I can't help but think that this whole mess Nale now finds himself in could have been avoided if he had just remembered a few strips back that he owns Rocket Skates....:smallsmile:

Mutant Sheep

2011-08-16, 11:27 PM

You know....I can't help but think that this whole mess Nale now finds himself in could have been avoided if he had just remembered a few strips back that he owns Rocket Skates....:smallsmile:

Sorry, Hinjo took those. Something about Argent wanting to fly...

Gift Jeraff

2011-08-17, 12:14 AM

So, uh, no pun in this comic title? "Bound to Happen."

I was expecting someone to be tied up, at the very least.In the penultimate panel, Amun-Zora seems to bounding toward Nale. You can also say Nale bounded at Elan in the panel before that.

BillyBobJoe

2011-08-17, 12:28 AM

So, uh, no pun in this comic title? "Bound to Happen."

I was expecting someone to be tied up, at the very least.

It wasn't a pun, but it refers to the fact that having an evil twin beniffiting you is "bound to happen" some time, I believe.

Everybody outsmarts Nale. Including Nale.

May I sig this?

Dancing_Fox

2011-08-17, 12:29 AM

In the penultimate panel, Amun-Zora seems to bounding toward Nale. You can also say Nale bounded at Elan in the panel before that.

Ha. Very good - let's go with that!

Whiffet

2011-08-17, 01:06 AM

Everybody outsmarts Nale. Including Nale.

Especially Nale.

Adeptus

2011-08-17, 01:41 AM

I love it! Literally laughed out loud. :amused:

Adeptus

2011-08-17, 01:42 AM

So, uh, no pun in this comic title? "Bound to Happen."

I was expecting someone to be tied up, at the very least.

I recommend reading the comic title _after_ you've read the comic. That's what I do, and I often get an additional chuckle from the caption. It doesn't work the other way, then it's just a spoiler.

Icedaemon

2011-08-17, 02:19 AM

You don't "lose" levels. Negative levels means an array of penalties, and losing spell levels.

Didn't it work like normal level-loss in 3.0? OoTS is mostly 3.5, but some people have spells or abilities from previous editions.

She saw he didn't have a goatee when he was standing between her and Tarquin, but she's probably too enraged to notice.

Last time she saw him was over a day ago. Maybe she assumed he has fast hair growth. One has to have that to grow a goatee or any halfway-decent facial hair when one is naturally blonde.

Dancing_Fox

2011-08-17, 02:21 AM

I recommend reading the comic title _after_ you've read the comic. That's what I do, and I often get an additional chuckle from the caption. It doesn't work the other way, then it's just a spoiler.

Silly question time. How do you get to the latest comic?

I'm at work and want something to distract me on a regular basis, so OOTS is open - usually at the Forum page or I'm following one of the game threads (Props to TheOasysMaster for running a good Tomb of Horrors campaign).

So the most obvious place to see if there is a "new" comic - which only happens infrequently compared to my 40 hour work week - is to look at the left hand banner under "Comics", "Order of the Stick" and see if the count number is updated. But the title is right next to it - so it is kind of hard to avoid.

Is there a better way to check for the comics? I don't really want to go to the Comics and >> click to the latest comic - if the comic hasn't updated I have wasted my time (Although had a bit of anticipation wondering if somethign new is up). Besides, I'm at work, so I only want to be popping up a brightly coloured screen in a quiet period. But the rest of the OOTS is neutral enough that I can monitor for the comic number to update on the left hand pane.

My personal preference would be for the comic title at the bottom of the comic itself.

But yeah . . . how do you see that there is a new comic there without seeing the title first?
(Although I suspect I may like reading the title first, to be honest . . . guilty pleasure.)

Adeptus

2011-08-17, 02:26 AM

Silly question time. How do you get to the latest comic?

Use this link: http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript

Lord Vukodlak

2011-08-17, 02:31 AM

What Elan did here was
http://www.candy95.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/captain-picard-full-of-win-500x381.jpg

deuxhero

2011-08-17, 02:45 AM

No it can't. The only thing that can do anything a writer wants in a comic is radiation that that only applies during the Golden and Silver Age of Comics. Learn your comic history people!

Nanomachines?

fractal

2011-08-17, 02:49 AM

New OotS strategy - get someone not even in the party to fight your evil opposite for you!

Red XIV

2011-08-17, 02:57 AM

May I sig this?
Go for it.

Icedaemon

2011-08-17, 04:13 AM

So.... if it was Nale / Sabine / Z / someone else in the Linear guild doing the scrying in strip 698 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html), presumably they know where Girard falsely said the gate was to Soon. Presumably "Elan" heard it from Shojo in strips 378 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0378.html) and 798 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0798.html).

Given Z's obsession with the other elf, that might have been a 'scry where nemesis just was periodically', rather than 'scry on location'.

Which is weird, because a Bard's class abilities are mainly buffing and some healing.

...Which Elan is so incompetent at that it sort of loops around and makes him more competent than the average bard when alone.

Archwizard

2011-08-17, 04:27 AM

Given Z's obsession with the other elf, that might have been a 'scry where nemesis just was periodically', rather than 'scry on location'.

Except that the eye appeared away from the party while they were walking away. If Z was scrying on V, wouldn't the sensor appear right next to V?

Icedaemon

2011-08-17, 04:34 AM

That was why I stated 'where nemesis was', not 'is'. Perhaps Z does not want to risk his scrying being detected and tries to piece together the order's plans and movements by scrying the locations they have visited recently.

Especially Nale.

I am just quoting this to heartily agree.

dtilque

2011-08-17, 04:57 AM

-Amun-Zora has been tortured by days and his rational mind is too overtaken by rage to notice the goatee or the clothes change. Besides, the twin thing is even more unbelievable.

"His"?

Anyway, she's only been in the cell for a day, I think, maybe two. Unlikely to have been physically tortured at all. Mental torture is a different thing and she's definitely been suffering that, what with her husband newly dead and all.

Kareasint

2011-08-17, 05:24 AM

Well, I don't know about current (4.0) rules, but because OotS mostly follows 3.5 rules, you can read the 3.5 version on the SRD:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#energyDrainAndNegativeLevels

Basically, you get hit by a bunch of penalties that simulate losing a level. After 24 hours, you make a fortitude save against each negative level (DC depends on how the negative level got applied). For each save you fail, you lose an actual level.

The good news for Elan is that the saving throw is CHA based. He gets to use his CHA modifier for the save (DC 21 for Succubus). Most of his bad rolls tend to be when he is trying to move silently also.

Aricandor

2011-08-17, 05:45 AM

"... + draining creature’s Cha modifier"

Elan's Cha doesn't factor into saving. :smallsmile:

Archwizard

2011-08-17, 05:49 AM

"... + draining creature’s Cha modifier"

Elan's Cha doesn't factor into saving. :smallsmile:

Indeed, something being stat-based just means that's how the DC was set, so if you muck with the creature's stats you know how to adjust the DCs of its abilities.

Niknokitueu

2011-08-17, 06:00 AM

Heh. Elan using the identical twin situation to his advantage for once. Gotta say, Rich, you are Made of Win (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MadeOfWin). :smallbiggrin:

Have Fun!
Niknokitueu

CloakedDancer

2011-08-17, 09:16 AM

"His"?

Anyway, she's only been in the cell for a day, I think, maybe two. Unlikely to have been physically tortured at all. Mental torture is a different thing and she's definitely been suffering that, what with her husband newly dead and all.

Definitely going to agree with the whole "mental torture" thing. Tarquin seems to be quite good at causing emotional distress in those he would like to consider family.

The_Weirdo

2011-08-17, 10:41 AM

You know, Giant, I was really needing a chuckle after my PC broke down the day before yesterday. That hit the spot. :smallbiggrin:

Vemynal

2011-08-17, 11:13 AM

point of interest: he "spot" where the party had gather for that comic page was also the site of a rather enormously large explosion earlier that day. Maybe Z was close enough to the area to hear about or see the explosion?

OracleofWuffing

2011-08-17, 11:38 AM

:smallconfused: I don't think growing a goatee overnight is too outrageous compared to the amount of hair grown by another major character not too long ago.

That said, part of me feels that Elan was trying too pun his way through things, just that he kept missing really, really badly that we don't even notice.

jazylh

2011-08-17, 11:56 AM

Gotta admit I've been away from this comic for a very long time & it almost seems impossible to catch up, but this new page was totally funny. Especially when the evil twin unlocks the prisoner by mistake. :D

aart lover

2011-08-17, 01:07 PM

cool story bro

The Pink Ninja

2011-08-17, 01:51 PM

Curiousity:

If that woman dies fighting Nale, would it be an evil act on the part of Elan since he set her up for a fight she'd probably lose?

ThePhantasm

2011-08-17, 02:56 PM

Curiousity:

If that woman dies fighting Nale, would it be an evil act on the part of Elan since he set her up for a fight she'd probably lose?

I doubt she'll die fighting Nale. Also, why do you think she'd probably lose? Do we have proof that she is low-level? (Also - was she ever given a name? Does anyone know?)

Boogastreehouse

2011-08-17, 02:57 PM

Curiousity:

If that woman dies fighting Nale, would it be an evil act on the part of Elan since he set her up for a fight she'd probably lose?

No. He didn't force her to attack Nale. She did it because she wanted to seek revenge. Elan can't control her actions short of leaving her imprisoned in a cell, so he freed her and left her to make her own decision.

If she dies, it's because of her own choices. Elan simply gave her the power to make whatever choice she wanted.

I doubt Nale will want to take the time to kill her, though; Elan is still getting away.

zimmerwald1915

2011-08-17, 04:01 PM

I doubt she'll die fighting Nale. Also, why do you think she'd probably lose? Do we have proof that she is low-level? (Also - was she ever given a name? Does anyone know?)
Her name is Captain Amun-Zora of the former Free City of Doom, currently Tarquin's prisoner and tenth fiancee.

Ekul

2011-08-17, 05:16 PM

If she dies fighting Nale, she will have died trying to kill Elan for a poor reason. Thus, 'self defense'. Elan isn't trying to kill her, but if she gets herself killed as a result of his actions, it will be because of her own doing.

She's responsible for her own actions, just like everybody else.

After all, was Roy or any of the party at fault for getting the Teleport Wizard killed? Nobody caught flack for that. They accidentally demoralized him into getting himself killed. Granted, they had no way of knowing it would lead to his death, but still. He's the one who decided to get drunk and then get eaten. (no pun intended.)

Ulysses WkAmil

2011-08-17, 05:26 PM

Snails

2011-08-17, 05:37 PM

Except that the eye appeared away from the party while they were walking away. If Z was scrying on V, wouldn't the sensor appear right next to V?

Savvy scrying spellcasters avoid going for a high Will target directly. Pick someone who is likely to linger near the target. A fellow party member's animal companion is approximately ideal.

Gift Jeraff

2011-08-17, 06:00 PM

She would probably be Nale's level or higher, mainly because shes a captain of a city. Captains/people in charge are usually the level of the characters, due to roleplaying purposes, and Nale is the level of Elan. And since Nale's build is so complicted, she would probably be able to escape or even make him retreat (though unlikely).She's a captain from the Free City of Doom. Plus she was taken by a couple of nobodies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html). While Nale's build helps even the score, he also focuses in enchantment, which is good when convincing someone you're the wrong target.

Ranzear

2011-08-17, 06:08 PM

I first read the title as 'Round to Harpoon'.

It made no sense at all, naturally.

Threadnaught

2011-08-17, 06:44 PM

Savvy scrying spellcasters avoid going for a high Will target directly. Pick someone who is likely to linger near the target. A fellow party member's animal companion is approximately ideal.

But, but, but... The Linear Guild didn't know about the Animal Companion before they saw the OotS in the middle of the desert, is it difficult to scry on someone/thing you don't even know about? Sure maybe there's a chance Nale told Z the cat was important to Shojo, but they didn't know it was with the Order until the scrying, they had to scry to learn this and this is likely the whole reason behind them recruiting YukYuk, who is likely to have had Sir Scraggly a little longer than Belkar had Mr Scruffy.

Why would they scry on some dead guy's cat on another continent, when there's a magical thermo nuclear blast a few hundred miles away in the desert?

Also the familiar, Z never saw it in the earlier fight against V, chances are Quarr was "employed" by the LG because Z learned about V's familiar from the scrying and wanted to keep up the evil opposites theme the LG is based on.

Savvy forum users do research. :P

Gift Jeraff

2011-08-17, 08:17 PM

But, but, but... The Linear Guild didn't know about the Animal Companion before they saw the OotS in the middle of the desert, is it difficult to scry on someone/thing you don't even know about?Who's to say that's the first time they scried on the Order? Zz'dtri could have cast it on another OOTSer, saw that there was a cat in the party, and then started scrying on Mr. Scruffy from then on.

martianmister

2011-08-17, 08:21 PM

Maybe they know about Shojo's locations? :smallconfused:

Yana

2011-08-17, 08:28 PM

Of course they know the locations. Nale was present for the exposition recap that Roy asked for.

Forikroder

2011-08-17, 10:04 PM

its possible they had Z keeping a very close eye on the area, or perhaps through other means

perhaps there even wrking with gerard

M.A.D

2011-08-18, 12:49 AM

Couldn't they just scry the place where something blew up in the middle of the dessert and caught a glimpse of the Order?

KoboldRevenge

2011-08-18, 03:50 AM

Yes It's very probable its Z though I think it was just there to show how He was able to prepare for V.Hey is it just me or is a certain large; you might call him "Giant" mod seems to be locking more than usual? Ahhh! Never mind don't answer me. Run away! aaaaaaa!

pjackson

2011-08-18, 06:31 AM

but the universe did update from 2nd to 3rd edition in the middle of an adventure (admittedly a long, long time ago),

That was from 3.0 to 3.5

pjackson

2011-08-18, 06:34 AM

Interesting there isn't a Luck mechanic in D&D.

There are at least 2 luck mechanics in 3.5 D&D - luck bonuses to rolls and luck rerolls. Complete Scoundrel has a set of luck feats.

mrmcfatty

2011-08-18, 06:37 AM

She's a captain from the Free City of Doom. Plus she was taken by a couple of nobodies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0757.html). While Nale's build helps even the score, he also focuses in enchantment, which is good when convincing someone you're the wrong target.

True she is just A captain, but one would assume that she is most likely a fighter and could at least hold her own against Nale in a fight, that is until he charms her or something of the sort. And the nobodies that she was taken by have surrounded her while fighting off Elan to get to Tarquin hardly means shes not a decent level.

Mutant Sheep

2011-08-18, 06:38 AM

its possible they had Z keeping a very close eye on the area, or perhaps through other means

perhaps there even wrking with gerard

Well they might be working with gerard, but they probably aren't working with Girard.:smalltongue: Yeah, a very large sized super-mod is posting alot now. Locking, sadly, but making awesome posts anyway!

Threadnaught

2011-08-18, 08:02 AM

Who's to say that's the first time they scried on the Order? Zz'dtri could have cast it on another OOTSer, saw that there was a cat in the party, and then started scrying on Mr. Scruffy from then on.

Cloister, by the time it wore off, Hayley and Belkar were at least on their way to the western continent. This would still leave a relatively short window of time in which Z could actively scry on Hayley and Belkar, and considering V is his rival, you'd think that he'd scry on V and see the cat, then start scrying the cat right? Well since the party regrouped how many opportunities to learn about Mr Scruffy has Z really had?

One problem I have with this current strip.

We all know stories where the villain lets the guy guarding the prisoner keep the cell door key and it always ends with the prisoner escaping. Either because they killed the guard and took the key, tricked the guard, or someone else helped them escape by getting the key from the guard, usually with the guard dying or being humiliated.

Tarquin knows which villain clichés are bad for his empire, this being one of them, why would he not have the cell door key in a more secure location, such as on his person, or in the antimagic zone of the arena prisons?

Another useful thing would be, instead of just having a few guys outside the arena prison, he'd do well to have at least one ninja hiding in the antimagic area. Maybe because of the parade all the toughest defenses were taken down (again a bad cliché), but then again considering what he told Elan, I suppose it's possible that he may have put those holes in his defenses there on purpose in order to give someone a reasonable chance to defeat him.

Scrynor

2011-08-18, 08:15 AM

It's an isolated cell with his former lover. I think there are pretty good odds he wanted her to escape so that they could have another confrontation. She's no real threat and a despotic dictator has to get his kicks somewhere...

Lord Vukodlak

2011-08-18, 08:49 AM

Snip

The tiny barred window wouldn't allow the captive to get to the key, traditionally such an escape is made from a barred cell where the hero can grab the guard and pull them up to the cell. That doesn't work when the only opening is a tiny barred window.She couldn't reach through to attack him let alone take the key.

The guard in question is a lizardman so he's not going to be seduced by a mammal. And Tarquin clearly hands out informational pamphlets to educate his guards against simple tricks.

In a outside rescue situation a door is not going to stop the party of heroes. A locked door they can't open is just something you'll need to replace after they break it down.

whitelaughter

2011-08-18, 08:50 AM

On a distinctly less brilliant note, was I the only one who saw the strip title "Bound to Happen" and thought it would involve Belkar and his Ring of Jumping?

Belkar doesn't have his gear - the thought has struck me that Belkar might forget that and try and jump between buildings, and die from the falling damage. Of course, he'd need to be carved up beforehand, but I still think it'd serve the little monster right.

I think Elan wasn't punning cos...he couldn't come up with a pun. Go on come up with a pun for the situation I dare you.

"Time for a double!" is always appropriate when fencing against your twin. (For those who don't fence, a double is a fencing move where you circle your opponents blade to slip past a parry).

"And you're Nailed" is a simple emergency pun Elan can always use against Nale.

Not sure whether "fighting for your lady's dishonour?" would work; depends on GM ruling I guess.

To complain about Nale following him around is trickier; want to play on bad smell or reflection I guess.

It looks like the Order may defeat the Linear Guild with their own power. That'll be nice. The less outside help, the better.
Elan is level drained and wounded; Roy near death; V low on spells; Haley petrified; Belkar without equipment and due to die (and his cat hurt).
I'm guessing/hoping that we will see more cases of the Order winning by bringing in temporary allies; in particular Durkon bringing in Malak (who gets to avenge his children by killing Nale).

Snails

2011-08-18, 10:03 AM

Why would they scry on some dead guy's cat on another continent, when there's a magical thermo nuclear blast a few hundred miles away in the desert?

The desert is the first time we noticed. We do not know if it was the first time a scrying succeeded. Surely Zz scryed the target of his hyper-focused effort more than once.

The Order is so bad at Spotting, it was a running joke earlier on. In fact, it is still a running joke! The only one to spot the scry sensor was the animal companion.

Gift Jeraff

2011-08-18, 11:56 AM

Cloister, by the time it wore off, Hayley and Belkar were at least on their way to the western continent. This would still leave a relatively short window of time in which Z could actively scry on Hayley and Belkar, and considering V is his rival, you'd think that he'd scry on V and see the cat, then start scrying the cat right? Well since the party regrouped how many opportunities to learn about Mr Scruffy has Z really had?If Z's been scrying on the party everyday, he would have had like 6 days between the reunion and the day of the explosion. As for cloister, if Xykon's under level 30, it should be off by now. (Even if he cast it the precise moment before Haley, Belkar, Scruffy, and Celia left, it's been 6~ months.)

the_tick_rules

2011-08-18, 12:33 PM

The desert is the first time we noticed. We do not know if it was the first time a scrying succeeded. Surely Zz scryed the target of his hyper-focused effort more than once.

The Order is so bad at Spotting, it was a running joke earlier on. In fact, it is still a running joke! The only one to spot the scry sensor was the animal companion.

they should have had him with all the ninjas.

ThePhantasm

2011-08-18, 02:12 PM

So Roy has a plan now (outlast Thog)

Elan has a slight advantage now (delaying Nale)

V has an advantage now (controlled kobold).

I have a feeling something is going to go wrong soon.

Also, where is Durkon?

Holy_Knight

2011-08-18, 02:41 PM

I have a feeling something is going to go wrong soon.

Also, where is Durkon?
The longer we go without seeing him, the more suspicious I get that these two are somehow related...

rbetieh

2011-08-18, 04:21 PM

The real question is where is haleys aunt, you know the one sneaking food into the arena for Ian. There are still a few missing players in the field. Are we even sure the bounty hunters won't come back if they find out about Nale? So many possibilities.....

Red XIV

2011-08-18, 06:47 PM

Elan is level drained and wounded; Roy near death; V low on spells; Haley petrified; Belkar without equipment and due to die (and his cat hurt).
Elan's handicaps aren't that important as long as Nale is occupied by Amun-Zora. And when he finds Durkon, he can get Haley un-petrified. And Durkon might be able to do something about the level drain as well, if he has Restoration prepared today.

Roy had his wounds healed by Ian's potion, and Thog's rage is going to run out, leaving him weakened and still unarmed.

V doesn't need to cast any more spells when s/he's got a semi-automatic kobold.

Belkar...might not even have to fight, given that V is already controlling his evil opposite. And his equipment is going to be laying there in the lobby, right where Roy told him to go look for the rest of the Linear Guild.

derfenrirwolv

2011-08-18, 09:46 PM

MoonCat

2011-08-18, 10:14 PM

If that woman dies fighting Nale, would it be an evil act on the part of Elan since he set her up for a fight she'd probably lose?

-No. Evil implies intent, and the ability to rationally conclude that her death would follow from fighting nale.

1) This isn't certain. She felt confident in taking on tarquin, a general, his son should be easier

2) Elan has the brain of a child , and blaming him for not thinking that far ahead would be like blaming you for not thinking 128 moves ahead in chess.

I utterly agree that that doesn't make Elan evil, but I highly object to your second statement, which pretty much justifies anything Thog does as well. And quite frankly, as someone who still technically counts as a child (or are teens not children? They keep changing the rules) it is NOWHERE near looking ahead 128 moves, but more like four, even considering that he's in a panic.

derfenrirwolv

2011-08-18, 10:42 PM

Right. 4 moves for elan= 128 moves for you. Sounds about right...especially in a panic. Also, if she stays in jail she's dead anyway, so this is probably her BEST chance to live.

There is a huge difference between INTENTIONALLY getting someone killed, and accidentally getting someone killed because you didn't realize that step 5 was the entire linear guild showing up and roflcoptering her.

Thog CAN think ahead. He took 2 levels of fighter and min maxes himself, and is cruel enough to have a Celion Deon record on hand to torture people with.

Rules Lawyer #1

2011-08-19, 03:21 AM

:elan: is :smallcool:

Threadnaught

2011-08-19, 06:10 AM

The tiny barred window wouldn't allow the captive to get to the key, traditionally such an escape is made from a barred cell where the hero can grab the guard and pull them up to the cell. That doesn't work when the only opening is a tiny barred window.She couldn't reach through to attack him let alone take the key.

The guard in question is a lizardman so he's not going to be seduced by a mammal. And Tarquin clearly hands out informational pamphlets to educate his guards against simple tricks.

In a outside rescue situation a door is not going to stop the party of heroes. A locked door they can't open is just something you'll need to replace after they break it down.

I'll give you the window, but the other two are more situational. Isn't there a Strength based DC for kicking open locked doors? I'll just be sitting here trying to think of ten times that's been done to free someone, so far I have one.

Assuming a lizardfolk wouldn't be attracted to a human because they're lizardfolk is almost racist (is it possible to be racist toward something that doesn't really exist?) during a Q&A session, one Hobgoblin showed an attraction to Hayley Starshine, despite her lack of fangs. In reality the prison guard is not attracted to the prisoner, because he's a prison guard and she's a prisoner. This is a running gag in the comic, most likely poking fun at how easily prison guards are seduced by the inmates in most games and other media.

Holy_Knight

2011-08-19, 12:48 PM

Assuming a lizardfolk wouldn't be attracted to a human because they're lizardfolk is almost racist (is it possible to be racist toward something that doesn't really exist?) during a Q&A session, one Hobgoblin showed an attraction to Hayley Starshine, despite her lack of fangs. In reality the prison guard is not attracted to the prisoner, because he's a prison guard and she's a prisoner. This is a running gag in the comic, most likely poking fun at how easily prison guards are seduced by the inmates in most games and other media.
What? That's not racist. Physical attraction is based in your own species, and the farther away a creature is from that, the less likely you are to be attracted to them. It would be pretty weird for a lizardfolk to have the same standards of beauty that a human does.

Andre

2011-08-19, 04:44 PM

That was days ago, wasn't it? Besides, this is a place where magic can grow hair instantly. So, you know.

Hey, that was not the point. Besides, this is a place where magic is so common, Amun-Zora should have known that Elan can no longer grow facial hair as of #388. So, you know.

Yes, that does not make sense either, but nothing posted in this sub-forum does, so we're doing fine! :smallwink:

Red XIV

2011-08-19, 07:07 PM

during a Q&A session, one Hobgoblin showed an attraction to Hayley Starshine, despite her lack of fangs.
A hobgoblin and a human are physiologically a lot closer than a human and a lizardfolk. In the OotS-verse, goblinoids seem to be not all that different in appearance to humans, aside from the skin color, ears, and fangs. And the males all being bald.

Tobimaro

2011-08-19, 07:12 PM

And then there are times when karma works in your favor. Elan is super-nice to the woman who wants to kill him, but I guess that Nale will do in a pinch. :smallwink:

brionl

2011-08-19, 10:41 PM

"His"?

Anyway, she's only been in the cell for a day, I think, maybe two. Unlikely to have been physically tortured at all. Mental torture is a different thing and she's definitely been suffering that, what with her husband newly dead and all.

OMG! Amun-Zora is RuPaul!

Also, a song by the Kinks

"I asked her her name and in a dark brown voice she said,
Zora, Ay Em You En Zora
Zo Zo Zo Zo Zoooorrrraaaa"

Dalek-K

2011-08-20, 06:11 AM

I'm starting to think Tarquin slipped some of those magic items on Elan even though Elan said he didn't want them.

Maybe some item to protect against energy drain? He realized that Sabine's drain did nothing the first time so he gave her a big smooch to get away knowing that it wouldn't affect him. How would he be able to know this? Magic item of +X Intelligence :D

Maybe an invisible Ioun Stone?

Tarquin finally came to terms that maybe his son was more of an idiot than he originally though (figuring out that father-son day wasn't an act) and decided to do some "parental interference".

EDIT: The Int boost from levels wouldn't help to much and I'm sure they would go to CHA to make him more useful.

:smalltongue:

derfenrirwolv

2011-08-20, 12:27 PM

Raistlin82

2011-08-20, 12:57 PM

Psychopathic 8 year old Thog lets a rabbit loose with a dog so he can watch the dog kill the rabbit= evil.

8 Year old Elan lets the rabbit loose with a dog because he thinks they will have fun playing together= not evil.

Same action, same result (chomp) completely different motive. Motive matters.

*claps hands* :smallsmile:

ThePhantasm

2011-08-21, 11:16 AM

It seems from Nale's comments that he and the LG have been in the Empire of Blood for some time. So does Tarquin know they are there, and is just playing dumb, or have they fooled him?

rewinn

2011-08-21, 12:29 PM

It seems from Nale's comments that he and the LG have been in the Empire of Blood for some time. So does Tarquin know they are there, and is just playing dumb, or have they fooled him?
Even bigger question: are their papers in order?
If the LG didn't properly register upon re-entering the city, they are in grave danger of being sentenced to the Arena :smallbiggrin:

FujinAkari

2011-08-21, 03:25 PM

It seems from Nale's comments that he and the LG have been in the Empire of Blood for some time. So does Tarquin know they are there, and is just playing dumb, or have they fooled him?

Tarquin very clearly knows that they're there, from Thog's capture. The degree to which he knows the specifics are speculative.

Thomar_of_Uointer

2011-09-01, 07:13 PM

Or to put it another way.

Psychopathic 8 year old Thog lets a rabbit loose with a dog so he can watch the dog kill the rabbit= evil.

8 Year old Elan lets the rabbit loose with a dog because he thinks they will have fun playing together= not evil.

Same action, same result (chomp) completely different motive. Motive matters.

That's also why Roy is still Lawful Good. He doesn't lie to and manipulate his fellow party members because he's petty, he does it because it's the only type of leadership that will keep them together long enough to kill Xykon.

Yeech, I hate alignment discussions threads where people say, "when he was doing this he was LN, but then when he did this it was CG, and afterwards he did that which puts him back at NG again..." All of the characters in this story are consistent in their motives, which means there has been very little alignment change. The only thing we have really seen in the OotS that could indicate alignment change was V accepting a deal with the Fiends because he didn't want the party to know that he/she couldn't fix a problem (and he/she regretted the decision very soon after.)