Buffing up a Dread Necro

[mucco]

So, I've got this party with high-op Psion, Wizard/Swiftblade gish, and Dread Necro/Walker in the Waste.

Three hardcore optimizers, mind you. Level 16. Psion got time stop, schism and energy missile with relevant feats for huge damage output, the Wiz is a melee beast with two standard actions, using Bite of X and many more buffing spells for an AC over 40 and damage that goes into the 200s with Wraithstrike+full PA. The Dread Necro is... trying. Got himself one of those rods that let you use SM as standard action, has some freakin' huge zombie dragons he's given an Int score so he doesn't have to command them, is Necropolitan, and is going for Dry Lich. But despite being the primary arcanist, he's falling behind now. This is due to him being at a lower tier as the Psion is a high T2 and the Wiz is a low T1. Me constantly controlling his minions and making sure no broken combos come out (wit minions, they're ridiculously common) didn't help raise his power level either.

Now I've seen here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197668) this nice homberew class that gives at third level a very strong ability: free heightened Necrotic Cyst whenever you spend a rebuke attempt casting. And I was thinking to fit that in the build of the Necro. It's a bit hard though - it is too strong for a feat. I was thinking to fit it in as a class feature, but I'm not sure how. Maybe at like Dread 10? So he has to choose whether to get that or become Dry Lich.

But that doesn't sound good to me. Suggestions?

[Maho-Tsukai]

Not sure if this helps, but I am cobbling together a PrC that may be of use to you. It's hardly at a playable stage, but perhaps it can inspire you/give you ideas. The basic idea of the class is that it uses a very unique form of undead animation to create special undead minions with.....PC class levels. Yes, you heard me right. While this is of course absurdly powerful, there are some drawbacks to it and while the class is hardly balanced as of now you may be able to salvage some ideas from it...Here's the link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211430).

[Ernir]

This really doesn't need to be fancy. You're right, him not having complete control over his minionmancy is probably holding him back. And the weakness of all the full list spontaneous casters is their narrow spell list.

So. Allow him to control his own zombies, and expand his class spell list.

[MrRigger]

I'd say let the boy have control over his own minions. And if he isn't doing so already, let him use Create Undead to raise Mummified Creatures (template from Libris Mortis). It always seemed (at least to me) that the Mummified Creature template was supposed to replace the original Monster Manual Mummy, but that's up to you. For one, letting him deal with his minions should take a lot of bookkeeping off your shoulders, and really, if you've got a high-op Psion and Wizard in the party, minion tricks aren't going to break the game any more than they could on their own.

For reference, the Mummified Creature template should go on the local Artificer, then Controlled into following the party around, making magic items on demand. Even if the Artificer is a few levels lower than the party, they're still worth it. You can also do this with rogues, wizards, clerics, whatever the party needs, really. Though the wizard should be able to Dominate whatever the party needs pretty easily too, especially at level 16, even if he's a gish.

MrRigger

[mucco]

Clarification: when I said "control his minions" I didn't mean I decided what they did in combat. I meant I was checking they weren't too strong or had problematic abilities like create spawn. The guy plays his minions in combat.

Otherwise, keep em coming!

[Retech]

Heh, let him take create spawn. :smallbiggrin:

I mean, while he may be able to create a world ending army of undead, the weak undead will have no chance against someone around his level.

It makes him good at what he's good at (You can't kill ALL my minions), but he doesn't interfere with the others.

[Drachasor]

Where do you feel he is falling behind?

Does he not have enough raw power in combat? Is he not versatile enough? What?

[Silva Stormrage]

First off glad to see my homebrew appreciated :smallbiggrin:.

Does he actually USE necrotic cyst spells? If he doesn't than that does not really help the player. It might make the class stronger but the player might not like you deciding what his character is good at.

You might want to give him spell stiched for free if you want to give him something. Free animate dead is amazing for dread necromancer. Don't let him have animate dread warrior here though, that will end badly :smalleek:.

What is he having problems with exactly? Are his undead not hitting? Are his spells being saved against/resisted?

The dread necromancer's spell list is kinda messed up. I would add desecrate and also the magic circle spells to his spell list.

One final thing to note is that you should probably remove the cap of 20hd for the zombies and skeletons. I still to this day have no idea why they put it in. A 20hd zombie can be animated at 5th level... (With desecrate).

[mucco]

Heh, let him take create spawn. :smallbiggrin:

I mean, while he may be able to create a world ending army of undead, the weak undead will have no chance against someone around his level.

It makes him good at what he's good at (You can't kill ALL my minions), but he doesn't interfere with the others.

Create Spawn is dangerous for the setting, more than for the NPCs. A focused PC with unlimited spawning power can very well undead-ize a continent and probably will succeed even if it is killed, as spawns are a snowballing mechanism. I could call in any sort of DM fiat to avoid it from happening, but it would just make my player feel useless and frustrated ("why are you giving me this if I can't use it to its full power?"). Striking a balance is... hard.


Where do you feel he is falling behind?

Does he not have enough raw power in combat? Is he not versatile enough? What?

Oh, I think he's fine. Remarkably less strong than the Psion and the Wiz, but still important and contributing. It's my player who's not happy with the situation though.

If anything, I feel he suffers from a T3-overload syndrome: too many options, and none really strong.


First off glad to see my homebrew appreciated :smallbiggrin:.

Does he actually USE necrotic cyst spells? If he doesn't than that does not really help the player. It might make the class stronger but the player might not like you deciding what his character is good at.

You might want to give him spell stiched for free if you want to give him something. Free animate dead is amazing for dread necromancer. Don't let him have animate dread warrior here though, that will end badly :smalleek:.

What is he having problems with exactly? Are his undead not hitting? Are his spells being saved against/resisted?

The dread necromancer's spell list is kinda messed up. I would add desecrate and also the magic circle spells to his spell list.

One final thing to note is that you should probably remove the cap of 20hd for the zombies and skeletons. I still to this day have no idea why they put it in. A 20hd zombie can be animated at 5th level... (With desecrate).

He never uses Necrotic Cyst in-combat. It would require a full-round action to cast properly heightened, and it requires a melee touch attack, I think, that you can't do with Spectral Hand if you heighten. I saw that possibility as a way to make him actually use that feat in combat.

He got spell-stitched around level 7? So that he could Raise Dead people without diamonds. He used most of the party's funds. Told you they were optimizers. :smallbiggrin:

About his role in combat: he's got four big nasty zombie dragons who do a lot of BC and also grapple/trip/PA for a nice amount sometimes. He rebuked into commanding a score (I think 6?) Flameskulls which he created, and those touch attack at a close range for 2d6 each and never die. He can cast SM x as a standard action, which is pretty sweet. However... when the Psion novas for 300 damage or the Wizard pounces into melee and full attacks for 200+, and then casts a spell, he feels a bit overshadowed.

We also have a Rogue/Assassin who mostly comes to play for the company and isn't nearly as optimized, but even he can push his damage over 150 easily in the right situation (Manyfang dagger+extreme TWF+lots of SA dice).

It's not really about his build being bad or unoptimized, but I got two other players who pushed their (already stronger) characters to their limit (and their fun is mainly in doing so, so I'm not asking them to back down on their builds unless there is something broken).

[Vandicus]

Create Spawn is dangerous for the setting, more than for the NPCs. A focused PC with unlimited spawning power can very well undead-ize a continent and probably will succeed even if it is killed, as spawns are a snowballing mechanism.

You haven't removed the create spawn abilities of the undead he controls have you? Because that'd severely weaken the abilities of a dread necromancer. The primary weakness of create spawn is that if the originator dies, the dread necro loses control, so its not like he's going to let them go wild creating spawn that at some point might be a threat to him. If you don't like the idea of players having access to that, you should simply remove the HD cap on undead. Since you're monitoring the power levels of his undead, it doesn't seem like you're allowing him to create undead copies of his rivals when he defeats them, so there shouldn't be too much of a problem with him having a few more zombie dragons.

[mucco]

Oh, I did remove Create Spawn abilities from every single undead he could put his hands on...


The primary weakness of create spawn is that if the originator dies, the dread necro loses control, so its not like he's going to let them go wild creating spawn that at some point might be a threat to him.

I can certainly see this problem being bypassed by letting a single undead spawn every other undead, then having said "father-of-all-spawns" order his minions to follow the caster's orders, then put the daddy in a secure place, away from battle. The create spawn problem still stands.

Example? The caster in question has an Entombed minion (Frostburn). He gained that through his PrC (frost variant of WitW - and the Entombed is a lot less powerful than the Sand Golem). He kidnaps one commoner in every nameless hamlet he can find until he has, say, 20. He brings them all to his original Entombed, thereby creating twenty new minions under his control.

He then sets said minions free in a respectably-sized town. There is no way a town of, say, 500-100 people could survive ten entombed - some of the highest level characters will be able to kill maybe one or two, tops.

We now have 8 leaders of a 1000 Entombed army. Go conquer capital city. There is no need to keep control of them! Even if the original 8 die, most commoners in any city will die and spawn even more. That mechanism cannot be stopped (see Wightapocalypse) unless very high level NPCs take out their guns, and that is something I do not want to happen.

[Silva Stormrage]

He never uses Necrotic Cyst in-combat. It would require a full-round action to cast properly heightened, and it requires a melee touch attack, I think, that you can't do with Spectral Hand if you heighten. I saw that possibility as a way to make him actually use that feat in combat.

He got spell-stitched around level 7? So that he could Raise Dead people without diamonds. He used most of the party's funds. Told you they were optimizers. :smallbiggrin:

About his role in combat: he's got four big nasty zombie dragons who do a lot of BC and also grapple/trip/PA for a nice amount sometimes. He rebuked into commanding a score (I think 6?) Flameskulls which he created, and those touch attack at a close range for 2d6 each and never die. He can cast SM x as a standard action, which is pretty sweet. However... when the Psion novas for 300 damage or the Wizard pounces into melee and full attacks for 200+, and then casts a spell, he feels a bit overshadowed.

We also have a Rogue/Assassin who mostly comes to play for the company and isn't nearly as optimized, but even he can push his damage over 150 easily in the right situation (Manyfang dagger+extreme TWF+lots of SA dice).

It's not really about his build being bad or unoptimized, but I got two other players who pushed their (already stronger) characters to their limit (and their fun is mainly in doing so, so I'm not asking them to back down on their builds unless there is something broken).


I more of meant did he have mother cyst AT ALL. If he does than ya adding it to his abilities would be fine.

Okay so he is spell stiched, you do realize that he can't learn raise dead from spell stich right? Doesn't really matter if you are allowing it just wanted to point it out.

Well maybe consider giving him his 2 lost spell caster levels back from walker in the waste.
(And as a side note those levels should still progress advanced learning I believe).

Hmm your party seems to deal mostly just damage. If he wants to keep up in damage I can see one way.

Let him take undead leadership for the cohort (The followers won't help at all at this level). If he gets an undead bard cohort with requiem (bardic music can affect undead) he could boost his damage TREMENDOUSLY while also buffing the allies (he could still consider the buffs he is giving his allies to be "his" damage if he cares to think of it that way)

Though are creatures making his save dc's consistently? Because fearing 4 creatures is better than 1 hit killing 1 creature. Its just less flashy.

[mucco]

He really can't choose Raise Dead as a SLA? Why not? Not that it's too important by now anyway... but I'm curious.

Having started with only a 16 Charisma and after having been denied those Frostburn feats that cheese out save DCs (at the time, there was no Wizard and the Psion hadn't come into his own yet, so that character looked like the strongest one), the player decided not to use spells with DCs anymore. I've had my NPCs roll maybe one or two STs against him in the last three levels.

In the last, say ten, fights, he's mostly done summoning, some clouds, Waves of X, enervations, and the occasional buff (Death Ward, False Life, Necrotic Empowerment now that he can cast at 8th level).

I will consider those suggestions, thanks.

[Drachasor]

If it is an issue of power, that seems solvable by just letting him have some more powerful undead. Maybe letting him control more hit dice if that's a problem, or just make one or two very special undead. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing stopping him from commanding a Lich, right?

Another option is to let him Gestalt a Tier 4 or 5 class. Might cause a ruckus though.

Oh, and a Bard won't work. Undead explicitly say they aren't affected by morale bonuses (part of the undead type and being immune to mind-affecting effects).

[Silva Stormrage]

He really can't choose Raise Dead as a SLA? Why not? Not that it's too important by now anyway... but I'm curious.

Having started with only a 16 Charisma and after having been denied those Frostburn feats that cheese out save DCs (at the time, there was no Wizard and the Psion hadn't come into his own yet, so that character looked like the strongest one), the player decided not to use spells with DCs anymore. I've had my NPCs roll maybe one or two STs against him in the last three levels.

In the last, say ten, fights, he's mostly done summoning, some clouds, Waves of X, enervations, and the occasional buff (Death Ward, False Life, Necrotic Empowerment now that he can cast at 8th level).

I will consider those suggestions, thanks.

Well okay its theoretical that it could be imbued with raise dead it's just difficult. The spell has to be on the wizard/sorcerer/arcane caster's spell list in order to be spell stitched.

One spell to note that might be useful is enervation, no save debuffs enemies really nice for metamagic (If he has a lot of metamagic get arcane thesis for it + a slay mate bound in a pendant somehow gives -2 to all metamagics.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If he doesn't want to go minionmancy, he can also do several other obnoxious things...

Southern Magician + DMM: Persist + Fell Frighten + Advanced Learning: Aura of Terror = good times.

Southern Magician lets his spells be considered arcane or divine, which lets DMM Persist work on them. Fell Frighten increases fear one step. Make sure to pick up a Slaymate to reduce metamagic cost without feat tax. Aura of Terror increases his Fear Aura radius and increases the level of fear.

Now take 4 levels of Dread Witch. Congratulations, now you bust through fear immunities. And further boost the DC.

Basically... get within 15' of him, and start running in panic.

And bonus action, with this setup, you can also Persist Death Ward on allies who still have to worry about such nonsense. And can persist Consumptive Field.... or any other buff you want to cast...

Alternately, a one-level dip in Cloistered Cleric with the Death domain (assuming Southern Magician persist-shenanigans) doubles your number of turn attempts you can blow on DMM, and lets you get into True Necromancer. Which is normally very sub-par, but since (due to Southern Magician) you can have either side advance Dread Necro, it's now a 14/14 spellcasting class, with free Desecrate aura (a spell the Dread Necro usually cannot get easily)

[magic9mushroom]

Really, you should give the Dread Necro his army of minions. Pretty much the single area in which a Dread Necro can do things a Wizard cannot is in superior army-building.

[Coidzor]

Create Spawn is dangerous for the setting, more than for the NPCs. A focused PC with unlimited spawning power can very well undead-ize a continent and probably will succeed even if it is killed, as spawns are a snowballing mechanism. I could call in any sort of DM fiat to avoid it from happening, but it would just make my player feel useless and frustrated ("why are you giving me this if I can't use it to its full power?"). Striking a balance is... hard.

If your players aren't immature little children it really shouldn't be.

It's easy to see why it would be disruptive to running the game to amass an exponentially and infinitely expanding army of shadows, after all.

But spawn-chaining shadows and using them to wipe out the enemy is not likely to be a very satisfying experience for very long & then shutting it down would just be a tiresome exercise.

The problem is here, that his minions and the gish are competing for the same role of occupying the enemy in combat & your minions & the gish & the psion are all competing for most damage output. The minions should win out in the tank department at least, because there's more, undead are buckets of HP, and they have completely free (except for time) out of combat healing.

So instead of the psion focusing more on battlefield control and/or allowing the dread necromancer to, through a combination of say, animate dread warrior and/or awaken undead, getting minions with useful battlefield control abilities, you've got a bunch of minions who may be doing a pretty good job of helping block the enemy from getting at the psion & dread necromancer, but that's going to be overshadowed by the damage paradigm which all three of the characters are focused on.

If the gish was slightly less optimized & relied more on power-attack, then setting it up so that he can go from flank to flank to finish the enemy off while the dread necromancer ties them down with his minions would be one strategy to suggest so that they work better together & so he feels more relevant.


Oh, I did remove Create Spawn abilities from every single undead he could put his hands on...

I can certainly see this problem being bypassed by letting a single undead spawn every other undead, then having said "father-of-all-spawns" order his minions to follow the caster's orders, then put the daddy in a secure place, away from battle. The create spawn problem still stands.

The fact that you don't trust him and have neutered his class abilities because of this probably has something to do with his dissatisfaction with the character, yes.

[TheDarkDM]

Question: Are the dragon zombies he has using the Zombie template from the SRD, or the Dragon Zombie template from Draconomicon?

[mucco]

If your players aren't immature little children it really shouldn't be.

It's easy to see why it would be disruptive to running the game to amass an exponentially and infinitely expanding army of shadows, after all.


They aren't the least bit immature, but more than one of them has pulled off at least once dirty tricks. Maybe they weren't aware they were breaking rules, maybe they felt they had to powergame in order to solve a combat situation. But they did already.


The fact that you don't trust him and have neutered his class abilities because of this probably has something to do with his dissatisfaction with the character, yes.

It's not a matter of trust: the problem is that once one player is given a game-breaking ability, a point might come where he wants or feels the need to use it to its fullest. It's happened already. And I don't want to say "no, now you don't have that ability anymore". It's inconsistent and unfair. And it's really difficult to draw a line especially with Create Spawn, since there are many loopholes that can be abused.


If the gish was slightly less optimized & relied more on power-attack, then setting it up so that he can go from flank to flank to finish the enemy off while the dread necromancer ties them down with his minions would be one strategy to suggest so that they work better together & so he feels more relevant.

The Gish relies on PA for damage. Not that he has a big chance of missing, with a Str in the 40s and improved Haste bonuses. In case it's really needed, he can Wraithstrike. And the dragons are doing a really good job at tanking, but that doesn't satisfy my player.


Question: Are the dragon zombies he has using the Zombie template from the SRD, or the Dragon Zombie template from Draconomicon?

Draconomicon template. One of them has 350 hp and the others are all around 200 I think, so quite the meat shield.

[poignant123]

Question, for OP, how are you fulfilling the Walker in the Waste prerequisites? It specifically says you must be able to cast at least 3 spells from the Sand or Thirst Domain as DIVINE spells.

How are you getting those spells without multiclassing? And as Divine Spells at that, since Dread Necro is an Arcane casting class (Southern Magician can fix that if you can get the spells on your list).

EDIT: Just looked up Advanced Learning, sorry. nor problems here :p

[Vizzerdrix]

He has Enervation, Correct? If I was in his shoes, I'd focus on that instead of worrying about damage. Maximized and split, that's 8 levels lost to the target for a +5 adjustment. Add arcane Thesis and easy metamagic, and if you're willing to allow it, Metamagic Spellshaper to bring it down to a total +1. A belt of battle would let him double his actions for a while as well.

Do chokers keep their extra actions as undead? If so then a few spell stitched chokers would be a nice boost.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

He has Enervation, Correct? If I was in his shoes, I'd focus on that instead of worrying about damage. Maximized and split, that's 8 levels lost to the target for a +5 adjustment. Add arcane Thesis and easy metamagic, and if you're willing to allow it, Metamagic Spellshaper to bring it down to a total +1. A belt of battle would let him double his actions for a while as well.

Do chokers keep their extra actions as undead? If so then a few spell stitched chokers would be a nice boost.

You forgot Slaymate. Reduce metamagic cost by 1 (minimum 1) for any necromancer spell. It's an undead. With an absurdly low HD. Shrink it down and store it in a locket.

[Jalor]

He has Enervation, Correct? If I was in his shoes, I'd focus on that instead of worrying about damage. Maximized and split, that's 8 levels lost to the target for a +5 adjustment. Add arcane Thesis and easy metamagic, and if you're willing to allow it, Metamagic Spellshaper to bring it down to a total +1. A belt of battle would let him double his actions for a while as well.


You forgot Slaymate. Reduce metamagic cost by 1 (minimum 1) for any necromancer spell. It's an undead. With an absurdly low HD. Shrink it down and store it in a locket.

This is how I've optimized a Dread Necro in the past. I also used Shivering Touch, but it doesn't sound like he's taken it with Advanced Learning. Arcane Thesis (Enervation) + Slaymate + metamagic will give him the power boost he desires.

Also, let him have an army of minions. Tell him straight up that you don't want any game-breaking shenanigans, but let him have an army. Army building is the one area where the Dread Necro really outshines most other classes, and if he's not satisfied with his current performance you should let him play to his strengths.

[Coidzor]

It's not a matter of trust: the problem is that once one player is given a game-breaking ability, a point might come where he wants or feels the need to use it to its fullest. It's happened already. And I don't want to say "no, now you don't have that ability anymore". It's inconsistent and unfair. And it's really difficult to draw a line especially with Create Spawn, since there are many loopholes that can be abused.

It still sounds, from what you've said so far, that it is a matter of trust, nothing you've said has really gone against this & has mostly reinforced the idea. You feel you've been burned in the past by things being abused and so you no longer trust them not to trash your game given half an opportunity to do so.

The obvious thing is to actually sit down with your group and discuss this, as the most lasting of arrangements for the difficulties of the 3.X system is and has always been the Gentlemen's agreement, as there's always going to be something that could be done.


Although, knowing what he's wanting to be able to do would help with the specific issue of his dissatisfaction a bit more than just clearing up this bad blood you have with your players a bit more directly.

[mucco]

This is how I've optimized a Dread Necro in the past. I also used Shivering Touch, but it doesn't sound like he's taken it with Advanced Learning. Arcane Thesis (Enervation) + Slaymate + metamagic will give him the power boost he desires.

Also, let him have an army of minions. Tell him straight up that you don't want any game-breaking shenanigans, but let him have an army. Army building is the one area where the Dread Necro really outshines most other classes, and if he's not satisfied with his current performance you should let him play to his strengths.

I nerfed Shivering Touch to be dealing a magical penalty with a minimum of 1 (a la Ray of Enfeeblement).

Oh, he used to carry around a Slaymate, but since he lost interest in casting he's kept her (it's a little cute undead girl and has Peanuts' Lucy personality) at home, managing the big house they've bought and any undead he isn't bringing with him at the moment.

Yes, Enervation debuff is pretty good but I pushed up Split Ray to +3 because that's essentially a twin with the drawback that you can "only" use it on your favourite spell anyway. That apparently was enough to drive my player's interest away (Mind you, still at the time where he was the strongest character). Since then, he switched feats around a lot when he felt they weren't useful (I'm generous with retrains), and generally steered away form sheer power in order to achieve more versatility (2xArcane Disciple, Mother Cyst). Currently he doesn't even have Spell Focus (Necromancy).

I will see about having him use better minions. At the moment, I'm turning his Thanifex weapon (WoL 166) into a magic staff that uses PF rules, so he can have even more spells to choose from. He seems to be liking that thing a lot.

@Coidzor: you sure you aren't going a bit overboard with this, pal? :smallconfused: I'm good friends with all of my players and have linked this thread to my Dread player as well. Gentlemen's agreement fails whenever we both fail to notice some broken things and I just hate to retcon, it feels unfair to me.

[Drachasor]

Oh, he used to carry around a Slaymate, but since he lost interest in casting he's kept her (it's a little cute undead girl and has Peanuts' Lucy personality) at home, managing the big house they've bought and any undead he isn't bringing with him at the moment.

...

I will see about having him use better minions. At the moment, I'm turning his Thanifex weapon (WoL 166) into a magic staff that uses PF rules, so he can have even more spells to choose from. He seems to be liking that thing a lot.

Especially since he has lost some interest in casting, I say better minions is definitely the way to go. Whatever part of playing he likes, there's an undead that can do it.


@Coidzor: you sure you aren't going a bit overboard with this, pal? :smallconfused: I'm good friends with all of my players and have linked this thread to my Dread player as well. Gentlemen's agreement fails whenever we both fail to notice some broken things and I just hate to retcon, it feels unfair to me.

Seems reasonable to me. Though, you might let him control some more undead to balance it out a bit.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I still say boosting his aura to Panic level and increasing the radius sixfold is good battlefield control.

You know, PLUS all the spells and minions and stuff...

[Drachasor]

I still say boosting his aura to Panic level and increasing the radius sixfold is good battlefield control.

You know, PLUS all the spells and minions and stuff...

Though, what matters most if what this guy will enjoy playing. So, I think figuring that out and enabling that is the way to go.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Though, what matters most if what this guy will enjoy playing. So, I think figuring that out and enabling that is the way to go.

Precisely. However, I don't think he has been presented any options. His character choice was 'I want to be a necro' and the GM's response was "NO MINIONMANCY! BANBAT!'. I don't think he knows what else he can do.

[Coidzor]

Fear, Minionmancy/blocking with walls of meat in combat, and Debuffing (http://community.wizards.com/bleak_academy/wiki/Dread_Necromancer%27s_Handbook) seems to be most of it. Though the bit about the Ghostly Visage familiar & it's paralyzing gaze attack at everyone in 30' of the Dread Necro was interesting.

Even the lowly 2nd level kelgore's gravemist (admittedly, needs advance learning to grab) is a great bit of battlefield control & combined with the minion-walls, should cut-down enemy mobility drastically & protect the gish from being charged in the first place, as fatigued characters can no longer run or charge.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Fear, Minionmancy/blocking with walls of meat in combat, and Debuffing (http://community.wizards.com/bleak_academy/wiki/Dread_Necromancer%27s_Handbook) seems to be most of it. Though the bit about the Ghostly Visage familiar & it's paralyzing gaze attack at everyone in 30' of the Dread Necro was interesting.

Even the lowly 2nd level kelgore's gravemist (admittedly, needs advance learning to grab) is a great bit of battlefield control & combined with the minion-walls, should cut-down enemy mobility drastically & protect the gish from being charged in the first place, as fatigued characters can no longer run or charge.

Kelgore's Gravemist + Snowcasting + Flashfrost + Piercing Cold + Fell Drain?

[Coidzor]

Kelgore's Gravemist + Snowcasting + Flashfrost + Piercing Cold + Fell Drain?

If one can add in Lord of the Uttercold & use skeletons, then even with piercing cold one would still be coming out on top in terms of the healing buff it provides the bone brigade.

Kelgore's gravemist already does cold damage, so I don't think it needs snowcasting+flashfrost unless those do something more for the combination.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If one can add in Lord of the Uttercold & use skeletons, then even with piercing cold one would still be coming out on top in terms of the healing buff it provides the bone brigade.

Kelgore's gravemist already does cold damage, so I don't think it needs snowcasting+flashfrost unless those do something more for the combination.

Ahh, I'm not familiar with what Kelgore's Gravemist does, I thought it was fatigue/exhaustion only. What book is it in?

[Coidzor]

Ahh, I'm not familiar with what Kelgore's Gravemist does, I thought it was fatigue/exhaustion only. What book is it in?

PHB2, I only have the blurb in the dread necro handbook to go on myself though, so it might be called for.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

PHB2, I only have the blurb in the dread necro handbook to go on myself though, so it might be called for.

Looking it up, Kelgore's Mist would be perfect. 1d6 cold damage per round, even with SR and saves. Tack on Fell Drain for negative levels. Or Fell Frighten. Or both. On top of Fear Aura optimization.

[Jalor]

I nerfed Shivering Touch to be dealing a magical penalty with a minimum of 1 (a la Ray of Enfeeblement).

Yes, Enervation debuff is pretty good but I pushed up Split Ray to +3 because that's essentially a twin with the drawback that you can "only" use it on your favourite spell anyway. That apparently was enough to drive my player's interest away (Mind you, still at the time where he was the strongest character). Since then, he switched feats around a lot when he felt they weren't useful (I'm generous with retrains), and generally steered away form sheer power in order to achieve more versatility (2xArcane Disciple, Mother Cyst). Currently he doesn't even have Spell Focus (Necromancy).

Seems to me like there's no way he can ever compare to the other two party members, because you've nerfed key spells and aren't letting him take advantage of his strongest ability (a buttload of undead minions). If you've done similar things to weaken the other two party members, please say so, but based on what you've told us, the problem is that you gave him a few whacks with the nerf-stick earlier on and let the others go unchecked because their builds were late bloomers compared to his.