DM seeking advice.

[Nachtritter]

Hello, folks. Long time lurker, occasional poster, you know the routine. Anyway, I'm starting to run a Pathfinder campaign in a couple of weeks. Well, technically, it's a homebrew campaign using the Pathfinder rule system - standard fantasy world, nothing new or groundbreaking - but you know what I mean. That's not what's worrying me.

What's worrying me is the characters my group's rolled up.

Don't get me wrong, my group is typically made of solid gamers. For some reason, however, these guys got it into their heads to make some characters based off of various comic book heroes.

One of them saw Captain America recently and decided that he HAD to play a character who could throw a shield in combat and have it return to him. Okay, fine, I can work with that - write up a new type of shield that can be used as a weapon if the character takes exotic weapon proficiency: Discus Shield, and allow the character to have it return to him if he rolls the target's flat-footed AC after attacking. Otherwise, shield misses and he has to fight with whatever he's got left. No biggie. A little dumb, but, you know, I can roll with the punches. I even made some homebrew feats that he could take later on to bounce the shield off of walls or to hit multiple targets. S'cool.

Well, once Gamer A decided he'd play Captain America, the second decided he wanted to play Daredevil. In case you don't know where this is going, he wants his character to be blind, but with some weird "echolocation" ability. *Sigh*. Okay, fine. You get blindsight out to 60' and can't be 'blinded' or affected by gaze attacks, but you can't read anything, can't see color, and take an additional die of damage from all sonic attacks because you're seeing with your ears. Fine. I can work with this.

Then Gamer C decided he wants to play Elven Batman.

Grrrrrrr.

Some finangling later, I'm allowing him to play the Ninja class from the new Ultimate Combat, and he can purchase a grappling gun (homebrew item: has a range of 30', has about 60' feet of cord, you need to roll ranged attack to see if you hit anything, -4 if used as a weapon because it's a bit unbalanced, can support up to 300 lbs. of material, adds a +6 circumstance bonus to climb, 150 gold, yadda yadda yadda). Okay. All three of them seem happy with their somewhat broken and problematic characters, and it'll be an interesting challenge to see how these guys manage to survive.

So why am I feeling incredibly stressed out about this campaign?

I guess I'm just asking if I made the right choice, and, if not, how you would handle it. I want these guys to have fun, and I'm willing to add new things to the campaign in order to make their crazy ideas work, but at the same time I'm starting to feel that they're making bad decisions based on one somewhat weird idea that steamrolled. Opinions? Suggestions? Anything?

[Obrysii]

I think you're doing fine. Weird ideas that steamrolled are pretty much the foundation of D&D, and making characters themed off of "real" characters is, in my opinion, perfectly acceptable so long as it doesn't completely break your idea of your world.

Frankly, I wouldn't pass up the chance to send Superman in after them if they start mucking things up.

[Nachtritter]

Well, I've already decided that if they insist on playing superhero-based characters (and can make it past level 1) that they'll each find an archnemesis over the course of the game - a demonic bard who worships the ancient gods of chaos for Elven Batman, an evil ranger with ungodly aim for Rogue Daredevil, and a LE wizard who wears a ruby mask shaped like a skull for Fantasy Captain America. Naturally, I've had to wedge them into the original plotline I developed, which is always so much fun, but, hey, it'll at least show willing on my part.

... and if things really go south, it'll be Thor (CG Sorcerer/Barbarian) who shows up, not Superman. :D

[kamikasei]

You're stressed out because you intended to run a game of one genre and your players have decided to make characters for quite another. Honestly, I'd suggest scrapping the campaign and playing Mutants & Masterminds instead. Or Risus, if you want something easier to pick up and don't mind a light tone. Or saying "guys, if you want to play a superhero game let's do that, but if we're playing a fantasy game let's play fantasy characters". I suspect that the feel of their characters in play won't much match their original models, in any case.

[Nachtritter]

You're stressed out because you intended to run a game of one genre and your players have decided to make characters for quite another. Honestly, I'd suggest scrapping the campaign and playing Mutants & Masterminds instead. Or Risus, if you want something easier to pick up and don't mind a light tone. Or saying "guys, if you want to play a superhero game let's do that, but if we're playing a fantasy game let's play fantasy characters". I suspect that the feel of their characters in play won't much match their original models, in any case.

Well, I thought this as well, but they've apparently put some thought into their backgrounds (well, as much as they usually do, anyways). I've also made it quite clear that this is a fantasy campaign, and they're usually bro enough to follow my advice and listen to what I say. They just want to do it with flying shields and echolocation this time around. I can see what you're saying, but that's not what I'm really stressed out about - it's not that they made characters for another genre, it's that they're limiting their options by creating these characters. There's not a caster nor healer in the bunch - which absolutely baffles me, considering these guys are level numero uno.

[Tyrael]

Personally, I always go with "Rule Of Fun" trumping everything. If you're having fun, and the players are having fun, go with it!

[askandarion]

I think you're doing fine. If you're concerned about healing, just make sure they know what options are available (or have the first mission be for some healers so they can get some help as needed, or discounts). Or have a cleric healbot npc, if it's really that problematic.

You can throw the punches as normal and let them figure out how to adapt (or die and create new characters) or adapt to their character choices and shore up the weak points. I prefer the latter, but I'm more into cooperative gaming. I think you might be more stressed out over the more difficutl line you have to watch to make them feel like they're accomplishing things while not killing them.

I'd accomodate their focus on physical combat (of course, it's always fun to punch out the evil wizard) by having them just go after typical goons and have more of the treasure and rewards be healing items (chits for healing from local temples, potions, etc.) and magical potions. I don't know what sort of campaign or storyline you're planning, but maybe you could give them the opportunity to develop a network of npcs to help them out with areas they can't deal with, like magic and healing?

[NikitaDarkstar]

The healing thing doesn't have to be an issue at low levels. You could have them find/give them either healing belts early on or potion belts which lets them grab a potion as either a free or quick action. (not sure if the belts are 3.0 or 3.5 items, but since we're talking about Pathfinder they'll be usable anyway.)

Also I'm guessing the Daredevil sort of guy will take UMD since he's a rogue so making some wands and scrolls of various stuff available would help them quite a bit. (Have them help a wizards guild and in return they get great discounts on the more common stuff.)

And if stuff starts to really go south, offer a healbot npc, or encourage them to make a healer when they roll their new characters. :p

[Nachtritter]

I don't know what sort of campaign or storyline you're planning, but maybe you could give them the opportunity to develop a network of npcs to help them out with areas they can't deal with, like magic and healing?

Well, the storyline idea is that a priesthood of chaos cultists is trying to bring the ultimate god of chaos back into the world by gathering - and then destroying - a number of artifacts, thereby creating an astral rift to the Far Realm and yadda yadda yadda. Essentially, BBEG Cleric 18 is creating the magic equivalent of a nuclear bomb set on top of a magical ley line. Explosions will be made, fun will be had by all.

Naturally, this means they are going to be going up against a lot of clerics and fighter-based flunkies - as well as Aberrations, Undead, Chaotic Outsiders, and just plain weird monsters.

Now you can see why I'm so nervous about them not having a caster/healer.



Also I'm guessing the Daredevil sort of guy will take UMD since he's a rogue so making some wands and scrolls of various stuff available would help them quite a bit. (Have them help a wizards guild and in return they get great discounts on the more common stuff.)

And if stuff starts to really go south, offer a healbot npc, or encourage them to make a healer when they roll their new characters. :p

Well, I've already offered them the use of a healbot if they needed one, but they pretty much threw that idea out the window. I think they're going to use UMD to use wands of cure wounds, most likely. Not the best solution, in my opinion, but hey, if that's how they want to run things, that's fine by me.

[Telonius]

So why am I feeling incredibly stressed out about this campaign?


Obviously your subconscious is telling you you've crossed the streams. Allowed matter and anti-matter to exist in the same place.

You've allowed a DC/Marvel crossover. God have mercy on your soul.

[Ashtar]

I'd say, relax a little. Breathe in, breathe out. Find something that you would also enjoy in the campaign. I know you have the thing mapped out, but work with your characters as you have up to now, go nuts.

They seem to want a lighter hearted game. Is this possible with what you have planned out?

For healing, maybe Restorative Ointment jars are much cheaper to make, or you could provide them with rings of regeneration or ioun stone with a slow form of healing (1 hp / hour - Pearly white spindle). Healing belts would be also thematically appropriate.

Alchemist's fire for Batman, meeting The Iron man (Warforged?), can your players convince Poison Ivy (the druidess) to help them, maybe Hulk is a special type of Lycanthrope, use Squirrel girl to confound them, bring out some obscure marvel / DC characters, have capt. America's shield be upgraded to a be a Reflecting shield to have spell turning to aid against wizards...

[Nachtritter]

I'd say, relax a little. Breathe in, breathe out. Find something that you would also enjoy in the campaign. I know you have the thing mapped out, but work with your characters as you have up to now, go nuts.

They seem to want a lighter hearted game. Is this possible with what you have planned out?

For healing, maybe Restorative Ointment jars are much cheaper to make, or you could provide them with rings of regeneration or ioun stone with a slow form of healing (1 hp / hour - Pearly white spindle). Healing belts would be also thematically appropriate.

Alchemist's fire for Batman, meeting The Iron man (Warforged?), can your players convince Poison Ivy (the druidess) to help them, maybe Hulk is a special type of Lycanthrope, use Squirrel girl to confound them, bring out some obscure marvel / DC characters, have capt. America's shield be upgraded to a be a Reflecting shield to have spell turning to aid against wizards...

Yeah, that... that isn't likely. If I start to port over fantasy versions of EVERY marvel/dc hero, I might as well be running Mutants and Masterminds. Besides, my world is fairly dark - it's 300 years after a magical apocalypse, humanity's managed to rebuild, aberrations stalk the land, yadda yadda yadda. So having umpteen different superheroes including Squirrel Girl wouldn't fit. Three I can get away with - the others, not so much.

[sdream]

I commend you for rolling with the characters they wanted to play, and agree that there is no reason to change your world to fit their characters. An adventuring party are a good fit for superheroes, and they'll either get bored of their gimmicks or have fun tailoring them to meet the mechanics of your world.

I also had some suggestions:

Shield - At low levels, why not just have him attach a rope and yank it back as a move action after throwing it short range. At higher levels, just put a returning enchant on it (or on a shield spike on it).

Grappling gun - a crossbow mounted grappling hook doesn't seem that much of a stretch, should be more accurate than throwing it, but with less line strength. Might want to suggest a level in something like artifacer, and allow him to branch out as well to firing nets, tanglefoot bags, etc.

As long as the actual results of using these wierd toys isn't too far better or worse than using normal gear, it's just harmless fluff.

[Arbane]

Yeah, that... that isn't likely. If I start to port over fantasy versions of EVERY marvel/dc hero, I might as well be running Mutants and Masterminds. Besides, my world is fairly dark - it's 300 years after a magical apocalypse, humanity's managed to rebuild, aberrations stalk the land, yadda yadda yadda. So having umpteen different superheroes including Squirrel Girl wouldn't fit. Three I can get away with - the others, not so much.

Your call, then. Change the theme of the world to fit the players, or change the players to fit the theme?

I have my own opinion on which is likely to be easier and result in less aggravation. And hey, the worse off the world is, the more it NEEDS heroes...

[Nachtritter]

Your call, then. Change the theme of the world to fit the players, or change the players to fit the theme?

I have my own opinion on which is likely to be easier and result in less aggravation. And hey, the worse off the world is, the more it NEEDS heroes...

Normally, I'd just have them reroll, but they seem really attached to these characters for some odd reason. The setting isn't going to change, I can tell you that - I've been working on it off and on for years.

[artstsym]

Have you asked them why they want to play these in a dark grim fantasy setting that you feel you have put a lot of effort into (trust me, saying you feel you've done it carries a lot more weight than simply saying you've done it)? I mean, this just sounds like a basic lack of communication in the "what game are you looking for" department between you and your players. It's fine to tell them that Captain Bat-Devil simply doesn't work in the context of your setting, and that maybe if they wanted to play them in a one-off in the future that could certainly work.

[ClockShock]

Normally, I'd just have them reroll, but they seem really attached to these characters for some odd reason. The setting isn't going to change, I can tell you that - I've been working on it off and on for years.

This is why you're stressed out.
You're attached to your game world, and they're attached to their characters.
And in the pit on your stomach your worry that the two are going to clash badly. (which seems quite possible)

I would recommend tweaking the enemies they face and bringing the campaign down to the level of their characters, but it sounds like you've probably got all of their opponents fully statted out already.

If you're not able/willing to make any changes, you'll simply have to play through and see how it goes.

Let us know what happens.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Is there a reason these ideas can't work in a dark, grim fantasy setting? I mean just skip the spandex suits and give them some proper armor and they're not that different from a normal adventurer team are they? And as someone pointed out, the worse of the world is the more it needs heroes.

But also if you haven't already, talk to them and tell them what kind of game this will be and what tone you expect and if they have a very different idea, ask if they're willing to reroll for now and you WILL run a game more suited for their comic hero styled characters later.

[Drachasor]

Steal Healing Surges from 4th Edition.

Hmm, you know, I'd recommend just having them all play ToB characters then with some maneuvers also granting a use of a Healing Surge. (I am sure ToB gets recommended a lot, but I think it is very natural here if you do this).

That would work pretty well. I'd just straight-up give each one a magical item that can get more powerful as they gain levels.

Captain America: Crusader, magic shield that allows ranged attacks, returns, and lets you use Strikes as part of its ranged attack (if a strike has multiple attacks as part if it, each attack must be made against a different enemy in range).

Batman: Swordsage, unarmed variant. Add trapfinding (possibly Int to AC instead of Wis so he has more skill points like Batman). Batarang let's him make strikes, but just 1d4 base damage).

Daredevil: Warblade: Daredevil's special billy club, let's him make strikes at targets up to 30' away (single target only). Blindsight is pretty powerful, so his item is weaker than Cap's.

Something like that with Healing Surges should work. No reason it can't be gritty. Hmm, might need to modify the skill lists a bit.

I'd also say let them make non-lethal damage at no penalty with any strike or attack (if they really want to live it up and not kill some targets).

[Greenish]

Captain America: Crusader, magic shield that allows ranged attacks, returns, and lets you use Strikes as part of its ranged attack (if a strike has multiple attacks as part if it, each attack must be made against a different enemy in range).Why not just go Bloodstorm Blade? :smallamused:



Batman:Factotum, as we all know. :smalltongue:


Daredevil: Warblade: Daredevil's special billy club, let's him make strikes at targets up to 30' away (single target only). Blindsight is pretty powerful, so his item is weaker than Cap's.I might use swordsage instead. Blindsense from Hearing the Air, Blind-Fight as a feat, Shadow Hand for maneuvers at range.


[Edit]: And hookshot grappling gun Rod of Ropes from Complete Scoundrel is great for batman, if one is porting stuff from 3.5.

[Drachasor]

Why not just go Bloodstorm Blade? :smallamused:

Well, these guys seem to want to do it from level 1 -- well, I am assuming they start at level 1. That's another option though.


Factotum, as we all know. :smalltongue:

That can work too, though I'm not sure if the combat prowess would be there. I don't have much experience with it to be honest.

To be fair though, Batman is an absolutely impossible character. People act like Superman is ridiculous, but Batman KNOWS all sciences, is an expert detective, has super stealth skills, has super breaking and entering skills, has super disguise skills, is arguably the best martial artist on the planet, etc, etc, and is a regular human (e.g. no reasonable excuse). Oh, he also makes -- or can make -- a lot of his own gear and a bunch of other stuff. Other characters have flaws and limits to their skills...Batman is what...not very friendly unless he's faking it (which he is very good at)?

I'm not saying I don't love the character.

And the DM fails if there's not something like the following:
Enemy Being Questioned: "That's all I know! I swear to Hextor!"
Batman: Swear to ME!


I might use swordsage instead. Blindsense from Hearing the Air, Blind-Fight as a feat, Shadow Hand for maneuvers at range.

Hmm, this reminds me that Daredevil's weapon is kind of like whip at range, in which case no special clause is needed for strikes IIRC. I did consider Hearing the Air, btw. Problem is, he's stuck using that if he's blind and he needs to be at least 7th level to get it. Not ideal.

Given that sort of thing, seemed easiest to modify classes a bit and give everyone some powers that are roughly equal.

[Greenish]

Batman KNOWS all sciences, is an expert detective, has super stealth skills, has super breaking and entering skills, has super disguise skills, is arguably the best martial artist on the planet, etc, etc, and is a regular human (e.g. no reasonable excuse).Yeah. Factotum. :smallamused:

[Drachasor]

Yeah. Factotum. :smallamused:

Well, I knew it would handle gadgets better (their spells), but that was about it. I've looked at it before...might have the book somewhere, but I don't remember a lot of the specifics as far as physical combat goes (and unarmed in particular if the player desires that).

[Acanous]

I always thought Batman was a Wizard.

Maybe with a dip in Paragon Human (-1CL, I know, but all skills as class skills and a bonus feat? Probably)

Cap can be done, there's a "Throw Anything" rule somewhere, and Returning can be enchanted onto a buckler no problem.

Daredevil is a little bit harder, I know there's a magic item that grants blindsense and IS a blindfold, but same problem with Cap- it'll happen after 1st level.

[Greenish]

Well, I knew it would handle gadgets better (their spells), but that was about it. I've looked at it before...might have the book somewhere, but I don't remember a lot of the specifics as far as physical combat goes (and unarmed in particular if the player desires that).It can do it passably, adding Int to AC, attack, damage, str/dex checks etc. Not for terribly long, since most of those rely on inspiration, but for a while.


I always thought Batman was a Wizard.The other way around. :smalltongue:


Cap can be done, there's a "Throw Anything" rule somewhere, and Returning can be enchanted onto a buckler no problem.There's Throw Anything the feat, Shield Sling the feat and a special throwing/returning-in-one-package enhancement for shields.

[Somebloke]

Personally, I always go with "Rule Of Fun" trumping everything. If you're having fun, and the players are having fun, go with it!

Agree time infinity.

[LansXero]

There's Throw Anything the feat, Shield Sling the feat and a special throwing/returning-in-one-package enhancement for shields.

Yeah there are a lot of fun shield feats in 3.5 as well, may want to port them over to PF instead of homebrewing; as for homebrew, there was a Shield-Based discipline here in these boards (Iron Turtle?) and one based on taking hits for the team (pretty Cap-ish) as well.

As for the actual question... Do tell them what your expectations for the game are. Dont tell them what to do, dont tell them to change or alter their characters. Just tell them, openly, what the setting and the adventure mean to you in terms of expectations, time and effort invested, theme, mood, etc. Make sure you get as much of it across as possible. Then proceed as normal. If they are real bros they'll respect it and even with these characters will take it the way you want it to. Batman has had some gritty and dark runs, and the run of the Cpt. around and after Civil War was pretty solid too. So its possible for them to keep on the spirit of the characters and conform to your setting. But only if they really want to.

[Nachtritter]

I keep hearing about Factotums these days, but never their original reference. Where are Factotums from? Which book must I crack open to learn of the heady secrets inside?

Also, no swordsages. No way. I've seen them break games before, and I have bad memories of a former game where a guy played a swordsage xeroxed from his favorite anime. It was all spiky hair and eight-foot long swords and angel wings and oh god the memories

No one seems to agree with me on this, but anime and d&d don't mix well.

[Nachtritter]

Agree time infinity.

Ack, missed "Rule of Fun."

Yes, I LOVE rule of fun. My most recent campaign ended when the PCs crashed a star freighter stuffed to the gills with powerful explosives into the heart of a Space Fortress run by a mad stock-tracking AI. They didn't have the damage to do more than half the damage, but... what the hell? Fireworks for everyone!

However, my gamers have been known to exploit "rule of fun" more than once, and as the GM, it's up to me to say "No" when they inevitably wander into Mary Sue/Munchkin/Gotta Have More Numbers territory. Balancing element, all of that.

[Greenish]

I keep hearing about Factotums these days, but never their original reference. Where are Factotums from? Which book must I crack open to learn of the heady secrets inside?Dungeonscape.


Also, no swordsages. No way. I've seen them break games before, and I have bad memories of a former game where a guy played a swordsage xeroxed from his favorite anime. It was all spiky hair and eight-foot long swords and angel wings and oh god the memories

No one seems to agree with me on this, but anime and d&d don't mix well.What does that have to do with swordsages? It's not like they get spiky hair, monkey grip or wings as class features.


[Edit]: On that note… (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10832.0)

[marcielle]

My good sir, you are awesome. I just want you to know that.

[Nachtritter]

Okay, I've caught up with the rest of the thread and by god, there are so many good suggestions here. Thanks to everyone who put their time and effort into responding to my little problem - it's good to know there are gamers out there who won't simply say "NO THAT'S A DUMB IDEA" when presented with a challenge.

Also, I've come up with a bit of a solution. These guys want to play super-powered heroes, right? Nigh-gamebreaking abilities, yeah?

Well. Enter the Fountain of Impossibility (name pending based on the fact that it sounds really damn lame).

They'll keep the Echolocation, Discus Shield, and Grappling Hook abilities for now - they're not game-breakers, and they may actually be kind of fun - but I've also decided to slip something into the world that'll give them the chance to earn amazing powers beyond the scope of mortal man. I'm not just talking strength bonuses or to-hit bonuses, either - I'm talking genuine super-powers, like flight, ray-casting, etc.

It's all still in the planning stages at this point. I figure once the characters reach a certain level (somewhere between 5 and 8), I'll let them know the church of Saioch is looking for this fountain to give their soldiers amazing powers or something. It's up to you to stop them, team! If they can track down the fountain and defeat the half-orc general (who suddenly has steel skin and can spit fire), they can drink from the fountain. If they drink from the fountain, I'll take each of them aside individually and ask them, in turn, the age old question that nerds everywhere have asked since the dawn of time.

"If you could have any superpower, what would it be?"

Granted, I'll have to balance out the powers to make them more realistic - cooldown times or limited uses per day, perhaps, or something else to keep them from going Total Brutal in my campaign world - but they'll definitely be worth the reward. Thing is, they'll have to actually act like heroes in order to get to this little tidbit of power; save the orphanage, defeat a great villain, and make choices based on moral issues rather than expediency or simple greed. They want to play as heroes, by god, they'll have to earn it.

Anyway, that just popped into my head. What do you guys think?

[Greenish]

Also, I've come up with a bit of a solution. These guys want to play super-powered heroes, right? Nigh-gamebreaking abilities, yeah?

…I'm not just talking strength bonuses or to-hit bonuses, either - I'm talking genuine super-powers, like flight, ray-casting, etc.
In D&D, that's called "spellcasting". :smallamused:


Anyhow, if it seems cool to you, and you think the players would like it, go for it.

[Nachtritter]

In D&D, that's called "spellcasting". :smallamused:

Ho ho ho. I meant as spell-like abilities, considering these guys have a tendency to almost never play casters. Lord only knows why. But yeah, it should be an interesting little tool.

You know, if they don't royally tic me off and I end up digging into the Call of Cthulhu book for ideas.

[Drachasor]

Also, no swordsages. No way. I've seen them break games before, and I have bad memories of a former game where a guy played a swordsage xeroxed from his favorite anime. It was all spiky hair and eight-foot long swords and angel wings and oh god the memories

I don't see how they could really break any game. They are just tier 3. I suppose they are generally more powerful than unoptimized PHB non-casters and about the same power as a Bard. That said, any full caster is more powerful.

As for the anime bit, you can flavor any class in the game as anime.*

It's your game, of course.

*And personally I find calling anything "anime" except types of ANIMATION as quite ridiculous.

[pwykersotz]

Yeah, I've had this happen. For what it's worth, my advice is to let them do what they want, but make them do all the work. They want to be Elven Batman? Don't allow anything custom (at level 1 anyway), don't make any special allowances. The books allow so much optimization that it's definitely possible. They choose from feats that are already part of the rules, they use mechanics that already exist in the game.

Captain America's shield that you have? Scrap that houserule on returning and make them get the returning enchantment. If they end up multiclassing, they might have to take an experience hit. If they want skill tricks like run up the walls, they'll have to qualify for them and then purchase them.

The obvious line to walk here is for them to realize you aren't trying to be a killjoy. You just don't want to be locked into trying to work within the parameters of their (possibly) crazy-broken expectations. Possibly inform them that the first several levels may be their characters training to be these heroes, so not all the abilities will necessarily be there.

That way, they get time to build WBL for magic and gadgets, time to put ranks in relevant skills, and you don't weep tears of despair. If you like these guys, want to run a campaign for them, and they want to do crazy things, just make sure they do it by the rules and you can handle anything.