"But Daddy, I want to punch stuff!" Unarmed Gish question

[Zergrusheddie]

Howdy folks. A friend of mine is going to DM a (probably) very short lived campaign. With a 30 point buy, level 1, 1 flaw, 1 trait, and "some special bonus involved with having a high charisma" I decided to try my hand at some kind of Sorcerer gish type character. Even though he isn't lactose intolerant, I thought that a Dragonwrought Kobold was probably a little bit much on the Cheese Factor.

Currently, I am working with a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer/Monk into Enlightened Fist. I know that a 30 point buy isn't the worst possible thing, but it is a little rough when you are talking about a Monk and even more so with a Monk Gish. I plan on taking the Ascetic Mage feat, Arcane Strike, and just using my spells to buff myself like Mage Armor, Enlarge Person, and Greater Mighty Wallop. I have not quite decided on race but I figured a Raptoran would be hilarious simply because I could make horrible, horrible puns. I was just wondering if this will actually work, or is there a better way to be an Unarmed Gish without going into ToB (I've done ToB 100 times).

Best of luck y'all.
-Eddie

[Eldariel]

Ardent-based Psionic Gish might work better but for Sorcerer-base, you've kinda got it covered. Mind, 30pb is really low for a Monk Gish since that's just painfully MAD but at least you have spells making up for some of the numbers.

[Keld Denar]

Yea, Tashalatora is a valiant solution to your goal. Not much Cha synergy, though. Maybe if you went Monk2/Wilder18 with a modified Ascetic Mage? Painfully low on powers known though, but not quite as bad as PsyWar, and has more PP plus Wild Surge is kinda fun for augmenting Expansion.

[tyckspoon]

Can we at least convince you not to use Stalwart/Battle Sorcerer? They do terrible, terrible things to your spells known, and especially in combination you are giving up far more than it's worth (Battle Sorc is ok if you don't want to go through the complexities of gish multiclassing and prestiging. Stalwart is just bad.) Battle Sorcerer alone + Superior Unarmed Strike makes a decent gish, but as soon as you multiclass and especially prestige out of it you give up what Battle Sorcerer gave you, while the spells/day and spells known reductions carry through forever...

[Fouredged Sword]

I will leave this here.

Check out the druidic avenger and the other generic druid varient.

Read that they don't trade away the same stuff..

Get a druid wis to ac(as monk), fast movenment(monk), Favored Ememy(ranger), swift tracker (ranger), the track feat, Fast movement(barbarian), and Rage(barbarian).

Just get improved unarmed strike and later suprime unarmed strike and snapkick.

I don't know why anyone plays a monk anymore really.

[Grendus]

Have you considered Psychic Warrior? They're more of a natural attack gish than unarmed strike, but they fit the bill from level 1 and don't have the same suckitude as battle sorcerer and monk. Less MAD too, just need con, str, and wis.

You could also consider, depending on how long the campaign goes, a good chameleon gish. Start with Rogue 1/Duskblade 4/Chameleon X as high as you can go (the first level has to be Rogue, Factotem, Beguiler, or Bard. Rogue or Bard gives you the most for a gish, imo, but bard would require a not insignificant feat investment to make the song useful into mid game and you wouldn't get enough spells to be worth having, while rogue gives you a damage boost and trapfinding, which you'll be pretty good at with your moderate int focus). You start out as a striker, channeling touch based spells and trying to set up flanking for sneak attacks. Once you hit sixth level, the build gets interesting and major options open up. Depending on your focus, you can be a divine gish or an arcane gish (or a mix of both, with your duskblade spells). It's no sorcadin, but it has it's perks and significantly more flexibility - skillmonkey, heavy hitting melee attacks, buffbot, naturalist, etc. Take Improved Unarmed Strike and Superior Unarmed strike for the unarmed part of the gish and you're golden.

[Flickerdart]

Would you be able to use Spellthief instead? They get the same stuff as Rogue, plus stealing spells, and you can use Master Spellthief to max out your stealing powers. Steal a spare Divine Power from the Cleric, now you can cast his personal-range spell on yourself.

[Azernak0]

Get a druid wis to ac(as monk), fast movenment(monk), Favored Ememy(ranger), swift tracker (ranger), the track feat, Fast movement(barbarian), and Rage(barbarian).

Just get improved unarmed strike and later suprime unarmed strike and snapkick.

I don't know why anyone plays a monk anymore really.

Probably because that damage is actually pretty low overall. Doing 1d3 damage until level 6, where it breaks into 1d6, is pretty poor. It is less of a Monk type character and more like a Druid who pimp slaps people after he runs out of spells.

[Grendus]

Would you be able to use Spellthief instead? They get the same stuff as Rogue, plus stealing spells, and you can use Master Spellthief to max out your stealing powers. Steal a spare Divine Power from the Cleric, now you can cast his personal-range spell on yourself.

Doesn't work. You need Rogue for Disguise as a class skill, have to have 8 ranks to enter Chameleon (though skill points aren't an issue, as Able Learner is a prereq). I suppose you could substitute a level of duskblade for a level of Spellthief, ending up with Rogue 1/Spellthief 1/Duskblade 3/Chameleon X. While slightly cheesy, it would let you have 2d6 sneak attack damage and steal higher level spells (you can't keep them to cast, unfortunately, but you could use it to strip away your opponents higher level spells before combat). It'd be an interesting trade off, you get the ability to steal spells when sneak attacking but lose some damage on your duskblade spells (Shocking Grasp gives 1d6/level, so the sneak attack damage is actually a net loss until you have a spare feat for Practiced Spellcaster).

The advantage of this build is that you get a lot of sources of bonus damage, which makes the low melee damage unimportant. Doesn't matter if you only hit for 1d3 if you get several D6 of spell and sneak attack damage tacked on.

[Randomguy]

Using a Monk fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122), if possible, would help. This one reduces MAD by making strength unnecessary. Now you just need dex, con and cha. It also has a bunch of other improvements.

[Flickerdart]

Doesn't work. You need Rogue for Disguise as a class skill, have to have 8 ranks to enter Chameleon (though skill points aren't an issue, as Able Learner is a prereq).
Silverbrow Humans gain Disguise as a class skill automatically. You could also take City Slicker (RoD).

[Grendus]

Hmm. I had considered the feat, but the build is feat heavy as is (needs Able Learner, IUAS, SUAS, possibly a Practiced Spellcaster). Silverbrow Human should work, since they're a racial variant they still qualify as human for Able Learner and Chameleon class.

If you do use Silverbrow human, Spellthief is probably a better option. Once you can spare a feat for Master Spellthief it does add a little more variety than rogue.

[holywhippet]

I'd go for monk/cleric and try the sacred fist PrC. Better BAB for one thing.

[Elric VIII]

Assuming that your campaign is going to be in the T3 range, you should be just fine with Battle Sorcerer/Enlightened Fist.

One of the largest benefits you have with unarmed is that you gain the ability to deliver touch spells with a normal unarmed strike (using non-touch AC) as your free attack as part of casting the spell. Also, delivering a touch spell will trigger Snap Kick, allowing you to get a second chance to deliver the spell if you miss the first (since you keep the charge). You can do this on a full attack at EF 3, so that's good.

For spells:
I recommend taking Vampiric Touch, a it is a gish staple and better than sacrificing slots to Ascetic Mage most of the time.

Ruin Delver's Fortune is another great spell that you will definately want to cast more than once and it is Cha-based.

Wraithstrike is always nice, especially with something like Arcane Theses + Extend (although, this works better on a prepared caster).

If you want to be a holy monk, Arcane Preparation is a good feat as it allows you to prepare [Exalted] spells, adding to your spells known (Luminous and Greater Luminous armor come to mind, saving you from having to learn Mage Armor, et al).

The feat Hammer Fist (Dragon Mag Compendium) pairs nicely with Snap Kick as it allows you to add 1.5 Str on all unarmed strikes, overriding the 0.5 Str from Snap Kick.

Also, Arcane Strike is better than the similar ability of Ascetic Mage, since it deals, on average, 2 damage/spell level and you can sacrifice multiple spells since it's a free action. It also allows you to cast things lik Wraithstrike.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Using a Monk fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122), if possible, would help. This one reduces MAD by making strength unnecessary. Now you just need dex, con and cha. It also has a bunch of other improvements.

You mean dex, con, wis, and charisma. Well, they can now dump intelligence to 6 and still be a good skillmonkey, and strength doesn't matter.

[Zergrusheddie]

I'd go for monk/cleric and try the sacred fist PrC. Better BAB for one thing.

I have thought about it but decided to go with Sorcerer because "Ehh, I like Arcane Strike, Enlarge Person, and Greater Mighty Wallop." My BAB will be exactly the same except for not having the amazing Divine Power. I was thinking about trying to change Sacred Fist to advance Ur-Priest but I felt that was excessive.

[Psyren]

Have you considered Psychic Warrior? They're more of a natural attack gish than unarmed strike, but they fit the bill from level 1 and don't have the same suckitude as battle sorcerer and monk. Less MAD too, just need con, str, and wis.

If you have Tashalatora (or if not, use Psychic Fist {3.5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/psionicFist.htm)/PF (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/psionic-prestige-classes/psychic-fist)} instead) then you can have an unarmed-focused Psywar just fine. Fists and flurry are the important bits.

[Randomguy]

You mean dex, con, wis, and charisma. Well, they can now dump intelligence to 6 and still be a good skillmonkey, and strength doesn't matter.

No, I don't. Two levels of sorcerer with the precocious apprentice feat first level, followed be one level of monk and the aescetic mage feat mean that you can survive just fine with 8 wisdom the entire time. And you get an extra spell slot and spell known. The downside is that you'd need to use your spells almost exclusively to buff others, instead of yourself, at lower levels. And also multiclassing penalties, maybe.

[holywhippet]

I have thought about it but decided to go with Sorcerer because "Ehh, I like Arcane Strike, Enlarge Person, and Greater Mighty Wallop." My BAB will be exactly the same except for not having the amazing Divine Power. I was thinking about trying to change Sacred Fist to advance Ur-Priest but I felt that was excessive.

Mighty wallop is a hard to pass up I'd admit (although you could probably get an item that can cast it). The combo of righteous might and divine power are good reason to go sacred fist though.

As for Ur-Priest to Sacred Fist - maybe by strict RAW it can be done. But technically PrCs are generally a specific organisation you need to join - in this case a holy order of a religion. Ur-Priests are exactly not that - they worship no god.

[Groverfield]

If you've got Dragon Compendium available, there's Battle Dancer, not much advantageous to monk, but meshing CHA into your unarmored AC does work better with sorcerer-types.

[Elric VIII]

If you've got Dragon Compendium available, there's Battle Dancer, not much advantageous to monk, but meshing CHA into your unarmored AC does work better with sorcerer-types.

The problem with that is that Enlightened Fist needs Stunning Fist. Although, the build could work well without it.

[TwylyghT]

Well I agree that you can consider a 1 dip into Battle Dancer and make use of your CHA score. I'd almost recommend it instead of monk, apart from needing Stunning Fist :(

You *should* at least be able to argue the monk and battle dancer levels would stack for unarmed damage and AC bonus, as they are the same abilities and they advance at the same rate. This is going of the shared class feature concept in the PHB, allowing turn undead, familiars, and uncanny dodge to advance from classes that share them. Still it purely would be a DM call as it did not exist at the time to earn a exception in the list.

[Elric VIII]

I would have to agree, something similar to a Sorcadin could work pretty well in place of Enlightened Fist.

Battledancer 1/Battle Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abj Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 9.

The Sorcadin starts with 2 levels of Paladin and ends with 8 levels of Sacred Exorcist, but the theory is the same.

As a Silverbrow Human with 1 flaw your feats would look like:
1: Combat Casting, Hammer Fist, Extend Spell
3: Arcane Strike
6: Superior Unarmed Strike
9: Snap Kick
12: Persistant Spell
15: Easy Metamagic - Persist
18: Practical Metamagic - Persist

Eventually you gain the ability to persist at only +4 level, so Greater Mighty Wallop is definately possible. You also only lose 1 CL, so Practiced Spellcaster might be unnecessary.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I'd just go with a standard arcane gish build, use a Monk's Belt, and be sure to pick up Greater Mighty Wallop.


If you want to focus on Monk abilities and spellcasting, then consider the Master of the East Wind from Dragon magazine issue 314. It gets 10/10 spellcasting and 10/10 Monk abilities (AC, speed, unarmed damage), with 3/4 BAB. It requires 3rd level spells, Ki Strike (Magic), and Climb 10 ranks. Something like Monk 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind 10 gets 16th level Monk abilities, 18th level spellcasting, but only a +12 BAB, or +14 fractional BAB. You could include Abjurant Champion 5 and use Battle Sorcerer and have a +16 fractional BAB instead, and with a Monk's Belt and Superior Unarmed Strike you'd still have 20th level unarmed damage.

[Zergrusheddie]

Hmm, so my build isn't completely and totally horrible. That's good. Anyone have any clues on races? I was thinking of going with the classic human but the early feat is not that useful. Would Raptoran work decently?

[Flickerdart]

Necropolitan is always handy for people with low hit dice and MAD, but so is Dragonborn, so you'll probably want one of these templates. +CHA races are very few and far between, but Illumian is very handy if you're going to be losing caster levels, as it can keep your CL in check.

[Godskook]

A modified Sorcadin can also suit your concept farily well, utilizing either a heavy item reliance or a swordsage dip(its better than a monk dip, and if you can afford 1 level loss, you can afford 2 with a Sorcerer gish).

The itemized version wants:
Items:
-Fanged Ring(Note that by RAW, this qualifies you to take Ascetic Mage)
-Monk's Belt
-Monk's Tattoo
Feats:
-Ascetic Mage
-Combat Casting
-Arcane Preparation
-Extend Spell
-Persist Spell
-True Believer(or you can convince your DM that a UMD check and sacrificing an arcane spell is sufficient, since technically, that's what UMD is for)
-Superior Unarmed Strike
-Arcane Strike
-Ascetic Knight(gets you that final +2 bump to level 2 damage, unneeded, but included if you go Human or Strongheart Halfling)

That gets you 20th level monk damage, but I'm not entirely sure its worth optimizing it that high on this build, cause you're sacrificing a lot of feat slots to do so.

The second option is to go Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Swordsage 2/Sacred Exorcist 6, taking the swordsage levels when you get the most out of them. That'll give save you feat slots and gain you access to some fun stances(A notable one is Giant's stance, which will give you *ANOTHER* size increase). You lose 9th level spells, but might be worth it if you want to keep your optimization levels in check while still having a really potent character.

[Metahuman1]

Play a human, and use this monk fix. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

Now, Take Astetic Mage, as planned, and Get skills in this Order.

Concentration
Tumble
Spellcraft
Knowledge Arcana
Knowledge Local
Knowledge Nature
Knowledge Religeion
Knowledge The Planes
Knowledge Dungeoneering.

Anything you want if you have spare skill points form Int after this.

Get Arcane Devotee, and grab Divine power, not for the extra str, but for the ability to cast Divine power for the Temp hit points and more importantly the Full BAB. Grab Snap Kick, Knowledge Devotion, Extend Spell, Arcane Strike, and maybe Force of Personality (see below.). Focus your spells on one of three category's.

Touch attack spells. (shocking Grasp, Vampiric Touch, and Caress of Midnight are good choices.)
Spells to buff yourself (Hint: Greater Mighty Wallop, Haste, Enlarge/reduce person, Fly, and Greater Invisibility are amazing. )
Save your ass spells. (Teleport, Dimension Door, a couple of divination's.)
Spells to solve problems. (Teleport, Fly, Arcane Eye, Greater Invisibility, you should already have most of these anyway.)

Stat priority's are Cha, Dex, Con. Str is a dump that will, Ironically, get a lot of love form spells but not produce much of anything, Wis should be a total dump if you do it right, and Int is Tertiary since you have all the skill points you really truly need, so if it's at least 10 it's not going to hurt you if it's low. Hell, you should be able to get buy on 8 if you drop Knowledge Dungeoneering since you'll rarely face the creatures that helps with.

IF! If you feel you can afford it, consider the following.

Dip Cleric 1 lvl, use it to prep Enlarge persons and one or two other minor Buffs/utility's and some extra detect magics. Protection form Alignment is nice and is 1st lvl. Create Food and Water have there uses. (Obviously this requires an 11 in Wis. More then that is, however, not particularly beneficial.) Trade a Domain for either Travel Devotion or Knowledge Devotion. (Make sure you end up with both feats though.) And get the Str Devotion Feat as well. Then, get a Night stick and a couple of hits of Turn Undead. Enjoy moving you speed and full attacking every round with the bonus to hit and damage form Knowledge Devotion, and the ability to treat your unarmed attacks as adamantine, Retain it when it stops being useful.

Remember I said maybe on force of personality? If you do the above and the below, which the above opens up, it's a no on that feat. If you don't do the above and the below, it's a yes.

Once you've dipped cleric, dip one more time, this time for Witch Hunter PRC form Oriental Adventures, and get Detect Evil at will, like a pally, and Cha to all saves, like a pally.

All of this will likely eat many of if not all of your feats and spells, but it will be strong if you get enough time to get your feet under you. (Hint: If DM is lenient, Dark Chaos Shuffle + Heroics form the spell compendium could help a LOT with the feats.)

[Zergrusheddie]

Thanks for the help everyone.

The only thing I am a little confused on is using the Monk fix that has been linked so many times. It is a whole hell of a lot better and the DM generally allows homebrew for the more weaker classes. How would I go about making that into an Enlightened Fist though? It seems almost better to just use that. Any ideas?

Y'all are awesome, cheers.
-Eddie