TWF & Natural Attacks

[Angeal976]

Okay, so I had a question for my DM, but he wasn't quite sure how the rules worked for this either, so I turned here for the answer to this question
Can you apply to weapon fighting to natural attacks? Are there certain conditions that must be met fir TWF to apply, or can they flat out just not be combined at all?

[Greenish]

Barring one or two exceptions*, no, you can't.


*Unarmed Strikes (contested) and Skarn spikes as a Spinemeld Warrior.

[Paul H]

Hi

Natural attacks are normally split into Primary & Secondary.

Eg. If you have two claws & a bite attack, the claws may be primary, and the bite secondary.

That means both claws attack at full bonus, the bite at full bonus-5. You don't need TWF. (Though you can use Wpn Finesse with all natural attacks).

Note: You don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons for high BAB

Thanks
Paul H

[Angeal976]

Hi

Natural attacks are normally split into Primary & Secondary.

Eg. If you have two claws & a bite attack, the claws may be primary, and the bite secondary.

That means both claws attack at full bonus, the bite at full bonus-5. You don't need TWF. (Though you can use Wpn Finesse with all natural attacks).

Note: You don't get iterative attacks with natural weapons for high BAB

Thanks
Paul H
Right. So I can't take two weapon fighting to get things like improved two weapon fighting to get extra attacks?

[Greenish]

Right. So I can't take two weapon fighting to get things like improved two weapon fighting to get extra attacks?Barring one or two exceptions*, no, you can't.


*Unarmed Strikes (contested) and Skarn spikes as a Spinemeld Warrior.

[SowZ]

Right. So I can't take two weapon fighting to get things like improved two weapon fighting to get extra attacks?

Kind of replaced by multi-attack, even though multiattack functions differently.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Right. So I can't take two weapon fighting to get things like improved two weapon fighting to get extra attacks?

Two weapon fighting doesn't work. They made two (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#multiattack) feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMultiattack) specifically for this, so there's no way you're going to get extra attacks.

[Angeal976]

Two weapon fighting doesn't work. They made two (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm#multiattack) feats (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMultiattack) specifically for this, so there's no way you're going to get extra attacks.

Oh I did not know about those feats, thanks. Unfortunately unless my DM specifically allows it I can't get the multiweapon fighting feats, because I don't have three or more arms. I have two arms, each with a claw, a tail, and a bite. Dang.

[Big Fau]

Oh I did not know about those feats, thanks. Unfortunately unless my DM specifically allows it I can't get the multiweapon fighting feats, because I don't have three or more arms. I have two arms, each with a claw, a tail, and a bite. Dang.

You don't need three arms:


Prerequisite
Three or more natural attacks.


You have 3 different forms of natural attack, and four natural attacks total (unless you really meant that each of your arms has a single claw, a tail, and a bite attack, in which case how did you do that?).

[Greenish]

You don't need three armsYes you do, for Multiweapon Fighting. Though I'm not sure why he'd want it.

[Angeal976]

Yes you do, for Multiweapon Fighting. Though I'm not sure why he'd want it.

For the extra attacks :smallbiggrin:

[Greenish]

For the extra attacks :smallbiggrin:Multiweapon Fighting wouldn't do anything to your natural attacks.

[Keld Denar]

I'll just leave this here... (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php%3Ftopic%3D10994.0)

Everything you ever wanted to know about natural attacks (and how they are different from manufactured weapons) but were afraid to ask.

[TwylyghT]

Multiattack and Improved Multiattack do not grant any attacks it just reduces penalties for secondary natural attacks by 2 and completely respectivly.

Multiweapon fighting feats, do not even work with natural attacks. Its two weapon fighting for people with more than two arms.

Rapidstrike and Improved Rapidstrike however will work, if you can get past the type prereqs.

[Keld Denar]

Yea...Dragon, Plant, Elemental, and Aberration only.

From the +0 LA racial list, that leaves you with Synad, Elan, and Dragonwraught Kobolds.

EDIT: And it should be noted that while the extra attacks from Rapid Strike LOOK like iteratives (made at cumulative -5 penalties), they are NOT actual iteratives. Just clarifying that.

[The Cat Goddess]

Yea...Dragon, Plant, Elemental, and Aberration only.

From the +0 LA racial list, that leaves you with Synad, Elan, and Dragonwraught Kobolds.

EDIT: And it should be noted that while the extra attacks from Rapid Strike LOOK like iteratives (made at cumulative -5 penalties), they are NOT actual iteratives. Just clarifying that.

I think Dragonborn will get you that, won't it?

[Angeal976]

I think Dragonborn will get you that, won't it?

Well unfortunately dragonborn don't get natural attacks for some reason.

[TwylyghT]

never claimed it was simple... lol.

Remeber though that the Dragonblooded subtype qualifies as a dragon for taking feats too, so as of at least the release of races of the dragon, Dragonborn, Spellscales, and ALL kobolds qualify. Sorcerers can buy in for 1 feat via Draconic Heritage.


Well unfortunately dragonborn don't get natural attacks for some reason.
Not by default, but that's one of the simpler problems to fix.

[Circle of Life]

I think Dragonborn will get you that, won't it?

Not quite.


[...] The [Dragonblooded] subtype qualifies a creature to use magic items normally only usable by dragons, and qualifies the creature to take feats that have the subtype as a prerequisite.

[...]

Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers, or spells that require the dragonblood subtype.

Bolding mine.

While dragons qualify for anything that requires dragonblood, dragonblooded do not automatically qualify for things that require the dragon type.

[TwylyghT]

Not quite.


The [Dragonblooded] subtype qualifies a creature to use magic items normally only usable by dragons, and qualifies the creature to take feats that have the subtype as a prerequisite

Bolding mine.

While dragons qualify for anything that requires dragonblood, dragonblooded do not automatically qualify for things that require the dragon type.

That pass is actually saying that the subtype of Dragonblooded can take feats as it it were a dragon.

There would be no need to include rules text that dragonblooded type can take feats that require the dragonblooded type... they can by actually being that type. If this wasnt true, every single race's info block would have included it "Humans can take feats that have human as a requirement" "Dwarves can take feats that have Dwarf as a requirement". Its only included when there are non default clarifications. For example, the Orc blood trait of a half-orc.

Edit, ok reading again, by using the term subtype in the reference, I have to say I was wrong, as by RAW it wont grant access to dragon feats by way of technicality. But i still believe the way they included the "and qualifies the creature to take feats that have the subtype as a prerequisite" makes the intent to let them do so, as they qualify as their own type by default even without that blurb.

[Greenish]

That pass is actually saying that the subtype of Dragonblooded can take feats as it it were a dragon.No, it doesn't.

Argument from intent is moot when the text is so clear (and never errata'ed or even changed when reprinted in Dragon Magic).

[Darrin]

I think Dragonborn will get you that, won't it?

If you are a kobold, then yes, you can go Dragonborn and replace one of your existing feats with Dragonwrought, which changes your type to dragon. However, you lose most of your racial abilities, which I believe includes your your bite/claw/claw natural attacks.