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Darthteej
2011-08-16, 04:41 PM
First off, I'm aware that 4e switched around the races, so this only applies to 3.x and earlier.

Yeah, check out thread title. I seriously wonder about why old Gary decided to include both races as playable! Half-elves are redundant in that their racial traits are always weaker than their parent. In AD&D, their advantage was that they got access to a more diverse list of classes because they were more "human" and therefore more flexible in learning(logic that still makes my brain hurt). However, by 3.0 the decision to make any class available to anything made this redundancy much clearer.

Furthermore, this odd balance isn't reflected in the Orcish race. Only half-orcs are in the PHB, while their full-blooded cousins have been restricted to the monster manuals, despite being a balanced humanoid race. Again, I can understand(though not necessarily agree) with the logic that Elves and Orcs are too alien and/or powerful to be PCs, but that those raised among humans aren't. But it doesen't make sense since there's precedent for including full and half-blood as playable races!

Thoughts?

Greenish
2011-08-16, 05:04 PM
What? :smallconfused:

magic9mushroom
2011-08-16, 05:29 PM
One can make an argument for Half-Elves being better than Elves in 3.5 in at least some ways (they still get access to most Elven stuff, they don't have a Con penalty, and they have "highest" as their favoured class).

As for why Half-Elves are playable, Tolkien. That is all.

Telasi
2011-08-16, 05:30 PM
Because elves and half-elves both appear as semi-important to important good characters in Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit? A half-orc also makes a brief appearance in Bree, for that matter, living amongst the humans. That's without even going outside Tolkien's works for examples; I'm sure you can dredge up more examples if you try. Orcs, by contrast, are a traditional "always chaotic evil" race, so they tend to get relegated to baddy status.

The rationale has nothing to do with balance. It has to do with fantasy stereotypes. The real question, then, is "why are gnomes in the PHB?" :smallbiggrin:

Beleriphon
2011-08-16, 05:31 PM
Yeah, check out thread title. I seriously wonder about why old Gary decided to include both races as playable! Half-elves are redundant in that their racial traits are always weaker than their parent. In AD&D, their advantage was that they got access to a more diverse list of classes because they were more "human" and therefore more flexible in learning(logic that still makes my brain hurt). However, by 3.0 the decision to make any class available to anything made this redundancy much clearer.

Because there is a mechanical difference between the two mostly. Also because half-elves existed in much of the fiction D&D was originally based on. Elrond Half-Elven for example.


Furthermore, this odd balance isn't reflected in the Orcish race. Only half-orcs are in the PHB, while their full-blooded cousins have been restricted to the monster manuals, despite being a balanced humanoid race. Again, I can understand(though not necessarily agree) with the logic that Elves and Orcs are too alien and/or powerful to be PCs, but that those raised among humans aren't. But it doesen't make sense since there's precedent for including full and half-blood as playable races!

Thoughts?

Orcs are monsters, half-orcs are not. There is the difference.

Lappy9000
2011-08-16, 05:33 PM
We did, however, break most of the party's minds when playing an Eberron campaign a few days back.

Vol is an Half Dragon Elf, yet she is not a Half Elf :smallconfused:

I know how it works, but it makes no sense to someone outside the game.

Hazzardevil
2011-08-16, 05:35 PM
We did, however, break most of the party's minds when playing an Eberron campaign a few days back.

Vol is an Half Dragon Elf, yet she is not a Half Elf :smallconfused:

I know how it works, but it makes no sense to someone outside the game.

She should be called a half-elf but by mechanics she isn't.
Is Vol actually statted up anywhere?

TheCountAlucard
2011-08-16, 05:38 PM
Orcs are monsters, half-orcs are not. There is the difference.Except that half-orcs are monsters, too - in fact, no less so than full orcs, and no more so than humans, so... :smallsigh:

The Glyphstone
2011-08-16, 05:41 PM
Except that half-orcs are monsters, too - in fact, no less so than full orcs, and no more so than humans, so... :smallsigh:

They are more so than Humans, though - Humans dont' even get a Monster Manual entry anymore, remember?

(actually, now that I look, neither do Half-Orcs. So I guess they're half Monster.)

TheCountAlucard
2011-08-16, 05:47 PM
They are more so than Humans, though - Humans dont' even get a Monster Manual entry anymore, remember?

(actually, now that I look, neither do Half-Orcs. So I guess they're half Monster.)Eh, note that Dominate/Hold/X Monster works on all three varieties equally well. :smalltongue:

The Dark Fiddler
2011-08-16, 05:47 PM
(actually, now that I look, neither do Half-Orcs. So I guess they're half Monster.)

Which is still more monster than humans, of course!

Greenish
2011-08-16, 05:57 PM
(actually, now that I look, neither do Half-Orcs. So I guess they're half Monster.)If you mean "statblock as a 1st level warrior", aquatic/half/grey/wild/wood elves don't get entry either.

TheCountAlucard
2011-08-16, 05:59 PM
Though technically, a critter's presence or absence in the Monster Manual doesn't necessarily make it a monster - after all, Asmodeus isn't statted out in it, he's in the Book of Vile Darkness, and Fiendish Codex II.

If we really want to get technical, "monster" is not fleshed out in either the PHB or the MM, and what we have to go off of in the DMG pretty much means that everything's a monster, with the exception of inanimate objects. :smalltongue:

Lonely Tylenol
2011-08-16, 06:00 PM
What I want to know is: where are the half-dwarves? Half-halflings? What about hybrid races that aren't human (such as half-elf/half-Orc)?

erikun
2011-08-16, 06:04 PM
What I want to know is: where are the half-dwarves? Half-halflings? What about hybrid races that aren't human (such as half-elf/half-Orc)?
Muls (human/drawf) are from Dark Sun, which is why they aren't in 3rd edition. They appear in AD&D and in 4th, though.

Quarterlings are a regulat joke around the forums. :smallbiggrin:

There are plenty of dragon/ hybrids, if that counts.

Greenish
2011-08-16, 06:06 PM
What I want to know is: where are the half-dwarves? Half-halflings? What about hybrid races that aren't human (such as half-elf/half-Orc)?Strongheart Halflings are half-halfling/half-elf, I seem to recall. SS half-ogre was a template (unlike RoD's half-ogre that's explicitly half-ogre/half-human).

DMG has "half-human elf" as an example race.


Would elf/orc be "erc" or "olf"?

Lonely Tylenol
2011-08-16, 06:18 PM
Strongheart Halflings are half-halfling/half-elf, I seem to recall. SS half-ogre was a template (unlike RoD's half-ogre that's explicitly half-ogre/half-human).

DMG has "half-human elf" as an example race.


Would elf/orc be "erc" or "olf"?

Fair enough. Some do exist out of core; it still seems weird not to have half-x templates or something to that extent, instead of races on their own.

Elc? ;)

Lappy9000
2011-08-16, 06:22 PM
She should be called a half-elf but by mechanics she isn't.
Is Vol actually statted up anywhere?It's worse for her because of all the fluff behind the wars between dragons/elves and the Mark of Death, so she pretty much can't be anything other than an elf.

In 3.5, she shouldn't be officially statted since Eberron has a thing about not statting up important NPC's (Just the class level and according to the ECS, she is a 16th level full elf half green dragon lich wizard) leaving the Game Master more freedom in their construction.

In 4e, she is indeed statted, but 4e doesn't really work that way, so mechanically, she's just a Natural Humanoid (undead).

Greenish
2011-08-16, 06:27 PM
In 3.5, she shouldn't be officially statted since Eberron has a thing about not statting up important NPC's (Just the class level and according to the ECS, she is a 16th level full elf half green dragon lich wizard) leaving the Game Master more freedom in their construction.Some of them do have stats (LoB, for example), but you're not supposed to treat those as canon.

Lapak
2011-08-16, 06:31 PM
As for why Half-Elves are playable, Tolkien. That is all.


Because elves and half-elves both appear as semi-important to important good characters in Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit?


Because there is a mechanical difference between the two mostly. Also because half-elves existed in much of the fiction D&D was originally based on. Elrond Half-Elven for example.
Yes, but - Tolkien's presentation was that a Half-Elf could choose to embrace either its Elf or Human heritage, and was essentially whichever side it chose. Elrond Half-Elven was an Elf in every functional sense; a half-elf who embraced his humanity would be a Man in every functional sense. So the idea of half-elves transferred from Tolkien, but nothing else.

Telasi
2011-08-16, 06:54 PM
Yes, but - Tolkien's presentation was that a Half-Elf could choose to embrace either its Elf or Human heritage, and was essentially whichever side it chose. Elrond Half-Elven was an Elf in every functional sense; a half-elf who embraced his humanity would be a Man in every functional sense. So the idea of half-elves transferred from Tolkien, but nothing else.

This is true. By the same token, D&D orcs aren't elves twisted by Melkor. Both appeared in Tolkien, which is the best known source, but Tolkien isn't the only source that Gygax and Arneson used for ideas. They chose to not use that particular aspect of Tolkien's half-elves, just as they chose not to use the origin of Tolkien's orcs.

thereaper
2011-08-16, 07:00 PM
What I want to know is: where are the half-dwarves? Half-halflings? What about hybrid races that aren't human (such as half-elf/half-Orc)?

Mongrelfolk are combinations of pretty much all the humanoids, as I understand.

Cerlis
2011-08-16, 08:47 PM
Dont orcs have a LA?

anyways.

Humans are a common hero race

Elves are a common hero race.

Half elves are prevelant enough to warrant statting them out. as ar half orcs.

Full Orcs are usually evil villians, and are a monster race, they CAn be characters. hence the "making an orc" entry. they just arent in the PHB

.Half Dwarves, half-Halfings, ect are not prevelant enough to warrent a statted out race. Dwarves are usually conservative about mingling societely with other races in such an intimite way, and halfings, as friendly as they are, still keep outsiders at arms length (not the comment of how they never even speak halfing around other races, much less teach it).

Those other half races may exist but not enough to stat them out.

Further i think its a stupid question to ask where all all the other halfs.

What about half mongrel folk, and half illumians. what about a mix of a Wood elf and a grey elf? where are the half centaur half satyr. Where are the half griffon half hippogriffs?

Where are all the Coconuts?(i'm hoping people will understand what i mean by that.)

Greenish
2011-08-16, 09:11 PM
Dont orcs have a LA?Yes, LA 0.


Where are the half griffon half hippogriffs?Hippogriffs are half-griffon (and half-horse).

Drachasor
2011-08-16, 09:26 PM
D&D genetics just make no kind of sense.

NikitaDarkstar
2011-08-16, 09:52 PM
D&D genetics just make no kind of sense.
It's magic. Thankfully enough, because we don't want to know how that half ooze, half dragon came to be otherwise.

And while it logically makes little sense to have half elves and half orcs as their own races they're popular enough to stat out, but what could have been included in the 3.5 PBH is an "This is how you make other half-race's" and "This is how you take race X and Y and create character Z."

Yrcrazypa
2011-08-16, 10:00 PM
D&D genetics make sense if you know nothing about real genetics.

nyarlathotep
2011-08-16, 10:02 PM
It's magic. Thankfully enough, because we don't want to know how that half ooze, half dragon came to be otherwise.



Are you suggesting half-oozes can't come through good old fashion means. After all celestials have acid immunity and love all living creatures. :smallwink: Before you ask the resulting creature looks like flan with wings.

TheCountAlucard
2011-08-16, 10:04 PM
Thankfully enough, because we don't want to know how that half ooze, half dragon came to be otherwise.Actually, he's a user here on the forums; his name is HalfDragonCube. :smalltongue:

Drachasor
2011-08-16, 10:05 PM
It's magic. Thankfully enough, because we don't want to know how that half ooze, half dragon came to be otherwise.

And while it logically makes little sense to have half elves and half orcs as their own races they're popular enough to stat out, but what could have been included in the 3.5 PBH is an "This is how you make other half-race's" and "This is how you take race X and Y and create character Z."

Well, I was also referring to such aspects as to the progeny of Half-Elves, which can never be Elves, but can be humans. It's bizarre -- actually, it's like it was designed by a racist Elf. (That's allowing the breeding of different species producing fertile offspring, which technically means they aren't different species at all).

NikitaDarkstar
2011-08-16, 10:12 PM
Actually, he's a user here on the forums; his name is HalfDragonCube. :smalltongue:
Yhea so lets not ask him about it. It's magic is good enough. XD


Well, I was also referring to such aspects as to the progeny of Half-Elves, which can never be Elves, but can be humans. It's bizarre -- actually, it's like it was designed by a racist Elf. (That's allowing the breeding of different species producing fertile offspring, which technically means they aren't different species at all).
Not quite following the "half-elves can never be elves, but can be humans." thinking, they're neither, or both. At the same time.
But yes everyone knows that creatures needs to at least be variants of the same species to breed, and that's why D&D genetics = magic.

Acanous
2011-08-16, 10:18 PM
D&D genetics Physics make sense if you know nothing about real genetics Physics.

the same can also be applied to economics, skills like Craft or Diplomacy, and housecats.

Edit: In the BoEF, there's an entry with an Orc and an Elf, he's wearing a necklace with the ears of some of her family members strung on it at the time.

Was really quite a shocker.

Drachasor
2011-08-16, 10:23 PM
Not quite following the "half-elves can never be elves, but can be humans." thinking, they're neither, or both. At the same time.

Missed my point. Half-Elves have human children if the other parent is human. Half-Elven children if the other parent is half-elven or elven.

NikitaDarkstar
2011-08-16, 10:39 PM
Missed my point. Half-Elves have human children if the other parent is human. Half-Elven children if the other parent is half-elven or elven.
Yep I did miss it, still missing it actually? But I'm thinking your gripe is that the human+half-elf combination will give human kids and not human or half-elf? (Mechanically anyway.)

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-16, 10:46 PM
Missed my point. Half-Elves have human children if the other parent is human. Half-Elven children if the other parent is half-elven or elven.

I always figured 1/4 elves and 3/4 elves get the same stuff as half-elves. 1/8 and 7/8 is where it starts to get blurry (maybe 50/50 or player decides?). 1/16th only counts as half for munchkins who wnt to stack on a bunch of half-X templates.

Greenish
2011-08-16, 10:53 PM
Eberron fun fact #463: There are no half-kalashtar because kalashtar are genetically human.

Acanous
2011-08-17, 12:11 AM
technically, so are Illumians.

Drachasor
2011-08-17, 01:13 AM
Yep I did miss it, still missing it actually? But I'm thinking your gripe is that the human+half-elf combination will give human kids and not human or half-elf? (Mechanically anyway.)

Let me put it into real-world terms.

It would be like saying if a black person and a white person had a kid, they'd be half-white. Now, when half-white people have kids with black people, those children are black. When half-white people have kids with half-white people, those children are half-white. When half-white people have kids with white people, they're still half-white because their descendants can never, ever be white again. They've lost something.

Wow, that sounds horribly racist. Now change "white" to "elf" and "black" to "human." Granted, I'm assuming races are well-defined above (they aren't), but the point remains. Like I said, genetics just doesn't work that way and it also doesn't make any sense.

Shadowknight12
2011-08-17, 01:18 AM
Actually, as far as I know, it's as it follows:

Human + elf = half-elf.
Human + half-elf = human.
Half-elf + half-elf = half-elf.
Half-elf + elf = elf.

Drachasor
2011-08-17, 01:35 AM
Actually, as far as I know, it's as it follows:

Human + elf = half-elf.
Human + half-elf = human.
Half-elf + half-elf = half-elf.
Half-elf + elf = elf.

I know I read otherwise, but I am not sure if they talk about this in 3rd Edition. Hmm, just looking real quick, it doesn't seem like Races of Destiny, Races of the Wild, or the PHB talks about it. I think it is in the 2nd Edition PHB though (or perhaps one of the races books).

Cerlis
2011-08-17, 01:53 AM
Hippogriffs are half-griffon (and half-horse).

um. no they arent.

Drachasor
2011-08-17, 02:03 AM
um. no they arent.

Right, right, it's not half-horse, it's half hippo. (http://ara-tun.deviantart.com/art/Hippogriff-124265654) (other half eagle or some such).

Ravens_cry
2011-08-17, 02:22 AM
Well, I was also referring to such aspects as to the progeny of Half-Elves, which can never be Elves, but can be humans. It's bizarre -- actually, it's like it was designed by a racist Elf. (That's allowing the breeding of different species producing fertile offspring, which technically means they aren't different species at all).
Not always true. Even in the most well known hybrid, mules, the females are very, very occasionally fertile with a horse or donkey, the males been always sterile, and there is several feline crossbreeds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felid_hybrid) between species or even genus that have been fertile. There is examples in other creatures as well. False killer whales and bottlenose dolphins (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7508288/) have also proven to be fertile, their young equally so.

Greenish
2011-08-17, 02:23 AM
um. no they arent.Yes, they are. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippogriff)

Ravens_cry
2011-08-17, 02:33 AM
They can be, or they could be a natural species that uses the natural magical background magic to enable its wings to lift it off the ground.
It's fluff, it varies with world, you are both right.

Autolykos
2011-08-17, 04:00 AM
Shouldn't two half-elves occasionally have human or elven children?

But it seems like every system does it differently. In Shadowrun, the offspring is always one or the other, there are no mixed races. Hence the dwarven joke: "What's the good thing about half-elves?" - "The other half is also dead."

Greenish
2011-08-17, 04:34 AM
Shouldn't two half-elves occasionally have human or elven children?Perhaps, but that does not appear to be the case, at least in Eberron where half-elves are an established, true-breeding race ("khorovari").

Worira
2011-08-17, 04:59 AM
Shouldn't two half-elves occasionally have human or elven children?

Only if you assume there to be a single specific allele pair for elfism and humanity.

EDIT: And also assume that one allele of the pair exhibits complete dominance over the other.



But it seems like every system does it differently. In Shadowrun, the offspring is always one or the other, there are no mixed races. Hence the dwarven joke: "What's the good thing about half-elves?" - "The other half is also dead."

And if there is a specific allele pair, and one is dominant and the other recessive, that's exactly what would happen. With the complication that two members of the race expressed by the dominant allele could potentially have a child of the race expressed by the recessive allele.

magic9mushroom
2011-08-17, 05:11 AM
Yes, but - Tolkien's presentation was that a Half-Elf could choose to embrace either its Elf or Human heritage, and was essentially whichever side it chose. Elrond Half-Elven was an Elf in every functional sense; a half-elf who embraced his humanity would be a Man in every functional sense. So the idea of half-elves transferred from Tolkien, but nothing else.

I said that that's why Half-Elves are playable, not that their stats correspond.

I believe someone around here has pointed out that Tolkien Elves would likely have an LA.

Gnoman
2011-08-17, 07:11 AM
Probably a fairly high one at that.

Yuki Akuma
2011-08-17, 07:18 AM
In 3.5, she shouldn't be officially statted since Eberron has a thing about not statting up important NPC's (Just the class level and according to the ECS, she is a 16th level full elf half green drago

Jaela Daran has stats, and she's pretty important. What with being the pope and all.

Greenish
2011-08-17, 07:34 AM
Let me put it into real-world terms.

It would be like saying if a black person and a white person had a kid, they'd be half-white. Now, when half-white people have kids with black people, those children are black. When half-white people have kids with half-white people, those children are half-white. When half-white people have kids with white people, they're still half-white because their descendants can never, ever be white again. They've lost something.

Wow, that sounds horribly racist. Now change "white" to "elf" and "black" to "human." Granted, I'm assuming races are well-defined above (they aren't), but the point remains. Like I said, genetics just doesn't work that way and it also doesn't make any sense.Ah, there's a Dragonshards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20040906a) article saying the same:
Half-Elven Blood

The genetics of the Khoravar [half-elves] are unusual. Many alchemists and sages are amazed that it is possible for humans and elves to interbreed at all. When a human and half-elf conceive, the resulting child has an equal chance to have the race of either parent. In all other cases -- human and elf, half-elf and half-elf, and elf and half-elf -- the result is always the same: a half-elf child. The Aereni claim that this is not a matter of physiology or genetics, but of magic; the blood of the elves holds the light of ancient Xen'drik, and once diluted it can never be regained. Whether this is true is a matter for each DM to decide.

HunterOfJello
2011-08-17, 08:45 AM
To the OP:

The Half-Elf race is often a better choice for many classes than their Elven counterparts. The penalty Elves receive to their constitution score is often not offset by their positive racial features. Half-Elves are obviously bland, but they work as a better race for any class that doesn't want to give up hit points and a penalty to their fortitude saves in the long run.

Half-Elves are also a flavorful race for new players to enter in to instead of adding a 5th human to a group of 6 players. If someone isn't quite comfortable with the idea of portraying an Elf, Dwarf, or a race they haven't even seen in a movie before (Gnome, Halfing, and Half-Orc), then Half-Elf is a good alternative.

For groups that actually use the Favored Class rules, Half-Elves get Favored Class:Any along with Bonus Languages: Any. They get some nice racial bonuses to different skills that will stack with later bonuses to those stats, along with the ability to count as an Elf for all sorts of things. Half-Elves are actually the best race for many of the Elf-Only prestige classes like Eternal Blade.

I think the Half-Elves could have been built a little nicer for 3.5e, but they definitely aren't terrible and they make a great race for roleplaying purposes. They're good for new players to get into roleplaying and work well for entering most classes. I'm glad that the Half-Elves were included in the 3.5e PHB and think that if they weren't included in the game it wouldn't just wouldn't be the same.

~~~~~~~~~~~
The reason Half-Orcs were included in the PHB, but Orcs were not is because Orcs are considered a monstrous race, whereas Half-Orcs are not. The monstrous races were initially frowned upon by the 3e creators and the 'good' races were put forward for the players to play as instead. They also make more sense from a roleplaying perspective for how they've been defined. Half-Orcs lack the charisma and intelligence of humans, but they still possess of the strength of their Orcish heritage. They can generally live peacefully within normal societies where an Orc would automatically be out of place. Half-Orcs are obviously intended to be the black sheep of the peaceful races. They mostly fit in with the other races, but don't always fit in perfectly. They make a good race for a player who wants to play a PC that is offbeat and works well in a group but is still a somewhat idiotic meatshield. Playing an intentionally idiotic Human Barbarian who runs around setting things on fire because he believes his tribal god wants him to, just isn't as much fun as doing the same thing as a Half-Orc doing the exact same thing. At the end of the day, a Half-Orc can always sit back, relax, and just pull out the race card. "Sorry, but I'm a Half-Orc. We just don't know better and it's you human's fault for creating us in the first place. If you were smarter, you might actually be properly ashamed of yourself for letting me set things on fire. You should know better."

hangedman1984
2011-08-17, 12:35 PM
Hippogriffs are half-griffon (and half-horse).

anyone else think this is hilarious given griffon's love of eating horses?

"well hello there dinner, you looking kinda sexy tonight"

nyarlathotep
2011-08-17, 01:45 PM
anyone else think this is hilarious given griffon's love of eating horses?

"well hello there dinner, you looking kinda sexy tonight"

Considering their myth was spawned from a Greek saying for doing the impossible, yes the irony was noted ever sense the beginning.

Jay R
2011-08-17, 03:15 PM
Original D&D allowed Humans, Dwarves, Elves and Hobbits. The non-humans had some advantages, but were restricted in how many levels they could earn. There was even a brief mention of other possibilities, stating that if somebody wanted to play a Balrog, for instance, he's have to start as a relatively "young" one. The Tolkien influence was clear and unhidden. (This was before the Tolkien estate took notice, Tolkien having died only the previous year.)

When the first supplement came out (Greyhawk), half-elves were included, because they were important in the Lord of the Rings. They had some benefits higher than elves - specifically, they could go up higher in levels. Both have existed in every version since then. Half-orcs are relatively new. They didn't even exist in the core rules of AD&D 2E.

Ravens_cry
2011-08-17, 03:22 PM
When the first supplement came out (Greyhawk), half-elves were included, because they were important in the Lord of the Rings. They had some benefits higher than elves - specifically, they could go up higher in levels. Both have existed in every version since then. Half-orcs are relatively new. They didn't even exist in the core rules of AD&D 2E.
But they most certainly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-orc#Publication_history) did in AD&D 1st edition.

Jay R
2011-08-17, 06:07 PM
Right, right, it's not half-horse, it's half hippo. (http://ara-tun.deviantart.com/art/Hippogriff-124265654) (other half eagle or some such).

"Hippos" is the Greek word for horse. "Potamos" is the Greek word for river. Hippopotamus just means "river-horse".

TheCountAlucard
2011-08-17, 08:17 PM
Right, right, it's not half-horse, it's half hippo. (http://ara-tun.deviantart.com/art/Hippogriff-124265654) (other half eagle or some such).The artist of that pic even says that it's supposed to be part-horse, part-eagle, and that the artist was going for something different. :smallsigh:

Knaight
2011-08-17, 08:20 PM
The artist of that pic even says that it's supposed to be part-horse, part-eagle, and that the artist was going for something different. :smallsigh:

They may have been going for a horse, but that is certainly a hippo. What they claim they were intending is really rather irrelevant.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-17, 09:34 PM
They may have been going for a horse, but that is certainly a hippo. What they claim they were intending is really rather irrelevant.

You're misunderstanding. The artist knows it's supposed to be horse, but made it hippo on purpose.

Drachasor
2011-08-18, 12:12 AM
You're misunderstanding. The artist knows it's supposed to be horse, but made it hippo on purpose.

Yeah, I linked to it because it's funny.

stainboy
2011-08-18, 08:56 AM
She should be called a half-elf but by mechanics she isn't.
Is Vol actually statted up anywhere?

NE half-dragon elf lich wizard 16, according to ECS p186. I don't know if there's a full stat block anywhere.

That's right, sixteen. In Forgotten Realms she'd barely qualify to be an innkeeper.

charcoalninja
2011-08-18, 10:51 AM
This is true. By the same token, D&D orcs aren't elves twisted by Melkor. Both appeared in Tolkien, which is the best known source, but Tolkien isn't the only source that Gygax and Arneson used for ideas. They chose to not use that particular aspect of Tolkien's half-elves, just as they chose not to use the origin of Tolkien's orcs.

Humourously enough hobgoblins are closest in lore to Tolkien's orcs IIRC, especially in 4th edition. I could be off my rocker though.

hamishspence
2011-08-18, 10:57 AM
In The Hobbit "hobgoblins, goblins and orcs of the worst description" are mentioned.

Hobgoblin could be an informal name for a variety of orc.

The more disciplined and regimented orcs (the Fighting Uruk-hai, maybe) seem to fill the hobgoblin slot quite well.

stainboy
2011-08-18, 12:51 PM
Aren't Uruk-Hai halforcs? I thought Saruman created them by breeding orcs with the local human barbarians. I might be wrong, it's been awhile.

Cerlis
2011-08-18, 01:00 PM
Yes, they are. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippogriff)

cus wikipedia is the source of all knowledge. expessially when it says something like "supposidly"

even if the idea of a hippogriff was originally that

we are talking about D&D.

In which Hippogriff if half hippogriff, half hippogriff.

hamishspence
2011-08-18, 01:41 PM
Aren't Uruk-Hai halforcs? I thought Saruman created them by breeding orcs with the local human barbarians. I might be wrong, it's been awhile.

The ones Saruman used may have had a bit of extra human in them - and he used more conventional half-orcs as well- "breeding Man-orcs tall and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile" but the basic Uruk-hai first appeared long before Saruman went renegade. Sauron first used them about 500 years before the events in LoTR.

LrdoftheRngs
2011-08-18, 01:47 PM
One thing that I can think of rules-wise is that Half-elves are better at multiclassing in 3.5, and don't suffer penalties when they have non-equal (or within 1) class levels.

I was probably ninja'd in this somewhere, but I didn't have time to read the whole thread.

Stubbazubba
2011-08-18, 02:30 PM
The "Elven-blooded" men from the southern provinces of Gondor, including Prince Imrahil, who were fair-featured and possessed some trace elements of their Elvish heritage, are, IMO, the real inspiration for Half-Elves. That and the way Elrond Half-Elven rolls off the tongue.

Dr paradox
2011-08-18, 07:48 PM
They are more so than Humans, though - Humans dont' even get a Monster Manual entry anymore, remember?

(actually, now that I look, neither do Half-Orcs. So I guess they're half Monster.)

wait, what? I take it you're talking about 3.5, because I KNOW that the current edition has humans in the MM.

lesser_minion
2011-08-20, 10:16 AM
The ones Saruman used may have had a bit of extra human in them - and he used more conventional half-orcs as well- "breeding Man-orcs tall and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile" but the basic Uruk-hai first appeared long before Saruman went renegade. Sauron first used them about 500 years before the events in LoTR.

My understanding was that 'uruk' normally refers to one of the strongest breeds of orc. "Uruk-hai" refers to something else, but I'm pretty sure what made them special as far as the books were concerned was that they didn't mind daylight. The possibility that they were somehow made by crossing humans and orcs was discussed, but it was never confirmed either way.

It's been a while since I read the books though, so take that with a grain of salt.

hamishspence
2011-08-20, 10:48 AM
-Hai is simply "people" in Black Speech.