Depowering wizard defense (3.5 Core, PEACH)

[Yitzi]

A large portion of why wizards are Tier 1 is their defensive capabilities. This is meant to weaken them so that "squishy wizard" takes on meaning again. It assumes the existence of a fighter fix that makes archery a relatively decent tactic, as well as making them able to at least somewhat play the role of meatshield.

-Miss chances do not stack, but rather overlap (if all of the same nature, such as concealment), or are rolled totally separately (if of different natures). This is really just RAW.
-See Invisibility can target others. It is therefore available in potion form (a roll on random tables of 81 for a minor potion, 37 for medium, or 11 for major.)
-Mirror images can be targeted like creatures, including by abilities such as Magic Missile and Whirlwind Attack. Destroying an image does count as dropping a creature for the Cleave feat.
-Furthermore, mirror images must each be within a 5' distance to each other image. There can be up to 2 images (including the real thing) in a 5' square, so that means the maximum, except when flying, is actually 7 images plus the caster.
-Wind Wall imposes only a -4 penalty to ranged attacks that go through it, like a severe wind. If the attacker is not aware of the existence of the wind wall, the attack automatically misses unless the attack is aided by divination effects such as True Strike.
-Polymorph-type spells are fixed as per this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204434).
-Stoneskin is DR 10/magic, not 10/adamantine. In compensation, the material component is only the granite, no diamond dust (so no material component cost.)

Thoughts?

[Silva Stormrage]

Here is my take:
Miss chance's still are incredibly awesome.

Mirror Image got hit pretty hard. I can't tell if they are destroyed by aoes or just multiple target spells though.

See invisibility as a potion isn't going to help. No one buys potions and melee still needs to spend a round to drink it.

Polymorph needed that but what about troll shape and other spells of that type?

People used stone skin? I never found a purpose for it.


Wizards power does rely on their defenses a lot. One thing I am going to do in my next campaign is limit casters to only have 5 ongoing beneficial spells active at a time. This will hopefully stop most chain combos and they need to think about what buff to have up at what time.

[Yitzi]

Here is my take:
Miss chance's still are incredibly awesome.

Yes, but getting better than 20% (which is not all that impressive when compared to anyone who puts decent resources into AC) for more than a few minutes per spell is nearly impossible.


Mirror Image got hit pretty hard. I can't tell if they are destroyed by aoes or just multiple target spells though.

Just multiple-target.


See invisibility as a potion isn't going to help. No one buys potions and melee still needs to spend a round to drink it.

If no one buys potions for simple defenses that's their problem. And while melee still needs a round to drink it, the caster needs a round (or a very high-level slot, or a moderately expensive rod) to cast invisibility.


Polymorph needed that but what about troll shape and other spells of that type?

Banned, as they're not core.


People used stone skin? I never found a purpose for it.

It can make a good anti-archer spell if the archer has no adamantine arrows.


Wizards power does rely on their defenses a lot. One thing I am going to do in my next campaign is limit casters to only have 5 ongoing beneficial spells active at a time.

Definitely could help. Another option if you don't want to houserule that blatantly is just to keep them from pumping CL for purposes of dispel DC too much and then use targeted dispel (which has a chance to dispel each ongoing spell.) Or if you want to be truly nasty, create a "spell implosion" spell that dispels (targeted dispel only), and does damage to the target (probably 1d6 per spell level, no save) for each dispelled spell. :smallamused:

(The advantage of the last one is that you don't even have to use it. The mere fear of its existence would keep things under control.)

[NeoSeraphi]

Miss chances may not stack, but if an enemy has a 50% miss chance from being blind, a separate 50% miss chance from bestow curse, and you have 50% concealment from displacement, he's probably not going to hit you very much anyway.

Moving on, you haven't attempted to fix greater invisibility, which, when combined with fly, grants a very powerful defense.

[Yitzi]

Miss chances may not stack, but if an enemy has a 50% miss chance from being blind, a separate 50% miss chance from bestow curse, and you have 50% concealment from displacement, he's probably not going to hit you very much anyway.

The miss chance from blindness and the miss chance from displacement are both concealment-based, so only one applies. And yes, by hitting him with two powerful debuffs he'll have trouble hitting, but that's really a question of wizard offense (and is in fact addressed in the fix to that), not defense.


Moving on, you haven't attempted to fix greater invisibility

How not? It can be countered by a 300gp potion now. I'd call that a pretty decent fix...it'll still be useful against the stupider sorts of enemies, but it's no longer so impressive most of the time.

[NeoSeraphi]

The miss chance from blindness and the miss chance from displacement are both concealment-based, so only one applies. And yes, by hitting him with two powerful debuffs he'll have trouble hitting, but that's really a question of wizard offense (and is in fact addressed in the fix to that), not defense.



Why? One of them is from the character not physically being there and the other is from the attacker not being able to see. Shouldn't those be calculated separately? Just logically speaking?



How not? It can be countered by a 300gp potion now. I'd call that a pretty decent fix...it'll still be useful against the stupider sorts of enemies, but it's no longer so impressive most of the time.

That's not fixing the spell, it's providing a situational countermeasure. Not every enemy is going to have a potion, and even if they do, with the target changed from personal it's going to be changed to SR: Yes (Harmless) which means that when they down the potion they're going to have to lower their SR for a round if they have it, and that would just open them up to a wizard's onslaught.

[Silva Stormrage]

Why? One of them is from the character not physically being there and the other is from the attacker not being able to see. Shouldn't those be calculated separately? Just logically speaking?


You are thinking of blinking. Displacement doesn't cause you to not be there just you appear to be 2 feet to the left.

[eftexar]

Here is how different types of miss chances interact with one another (mostly compiled from official rules):
Miss Chances (see the wizards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a) site)
Each type of miss chance does not stack with itself. The highest miss chance (or the one that qualifies in any case) takes precedence over the others. Different types are not combined, but are rolled separately.
Type 1: B/c you are difficult or impossible to see.*
ex. Concealment/Cover + Invisibility + Blur + Most Untyped
*A target who is blind ignores this type of miss chance, but has penalties of their own.
Type 2: B/c you are not there, are partially there, are sometimes there, or are sort of there.
ex. Incorporeality + Blink + Flicker + Some Untyped

The maximum for any single roll is 50%. The maximum number of rolls is 2 (one for each type), so the maximum miss chance is 75% (the chance of one of the rolls landing as a miss).

Following these rules displacement would fall under type two, because it makes you appear as if you were 2ft away. However displacement says the bonus is type 1 in its description. As such the displacement ability contradicts itself. By raw it is of both types and therefore does not stack with either.

Scratch that... It says the target 'appears' to be 2ft away. It is concealment and does not stack. It's amazing the difference one word makes.

[NeoSeraphi]

Here is how different types of miss chances interact with one another (mostly compiled from official rules):
Miss Chances (see the wizards (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041005a) site)
Each type of miss chance does not stack with itself. The highest miss chance (or the one that qualifies in any case) takes precedence over the others. Different types are not combined, but are rolled separately.
Type 1: B/c you are difficult or impossible to see.*
ex. Concealment/Cover + Invisibility + Blur + Most Untyped
*A target who is blind ignores this type of miss chance, but has penalties of their own.
Type 2: B/c you are not there, are partially there, are sometimes there, or are sort of there.
ex. Incorporeality + Blink + Flicker + Some Untyped

The maximum for any single roll is 50%. The maximum number of rolls is 2 (one for each type), so the maximum miss chance is 75% (the chance of one of the rolls landing as a miss).

Following these rules displacement would fall under type two, because it makes you appear as if you were 2ft away. However displacement says the bonus is type 1 in its description. As such the displacement ability contradicts itself. By raw it is of both types and therefore does not stack with either.

How does all that work with bestow curse then?

[eftexar]

What does bestow curse have to do with miss chances?

edit-> thanks greenish, that one went right over my head...

[Greenish]

What does bestow curse have to do with miss chances?You have a chance to miss your turn. Obviously, miss chance. :smalltongue:

[NeoSeraphi]

You have a chance to miss your turn. Obviously, miss chance. :smalltongue:

Oooooh, a 50% chance of losing each action! :smallredface: Woops!

I knew that sounded off to me when I read it earlier. My bad.

Don't really see the point in nerfing stoneskin though. After all, it can only prevent 10 points of damage at a time, that's already pretty weak for a 4th level spell in my opinion. By the time you get it at 7th level, most creatures will be overcoming DR Magic anyway, by virtue of either magic weapons or by possessing DR/Magic themselves, which makes all their natural weapons magic weapons.

[Kuma Kode]

The problem here is that you're targeting highly specific aspects of the game; particular spells, combinations, and how these things interact with others. These rulings are so specific as to target specific spells, ignoring the vast multitude of other combinations and particular spells that could do greater things.

This is likely doomed to fail for several reasons.

1) It is highly situational. Any combinations or situations you miss will fly under the radar and undermine your fixes, and might actually create new problems.

2) It requires a lot of effort to go through and hand-fix every little spell.

3) This extra effort, or the desire to not have to do it, will likely restrict you to core, which is one of the most broken aspects of the game and severely limiting to classes who only really got love in later splatbooks (like Tome of Battle).

4) The more individual fixes you make, the harder each one will be to remember during play, so the harder it becomes to actually implement your solution.

This approach would be fine if the problem was caused by only a select few features, but it's not. The problem is magic as a whole. To fix a broad problem, you need a broad solution.

[Lord Vukodlak]

You can already cleave off mirror images.

There are a couple feats that really help in killing wizards.
Mage Slayer makes casting on the defensive impossible in the area you threaten. Then from pathfinder there is a feat called Step-up. Which lets you as an immediate action use your 5ft step from your next turn to counter a foes 5ft step.


50% concealment from displacement, he's probably not going to hit you very much anyway. If your blind you'd ignore displacement as you can't see the image to begin with.


Wizards power does rely on their defenses a lot. One thing I am going to do in my next campaign is limit casters to only have 5 ongoing beneficial spells active at a time. This will hopefully stop most chain combos and they need to think about what buff to have up at what time.
I enjoy wall of dispel magic traps, nothing like stripping off half the defenses the a party put up before opening the door.

[Greenish]

Mage Slayer makes casting on the defensive impossible in the area you threaten. Then from pathfinder there is a feat called Step-up. Which lets you as an immediate action use your 5ft step from your next turn to counter a foes 5ft step.There are also a couple of other things, if you get near the caster. Thicket of Blades causes 5ft. steps to provoke AoO. Mirrored Pursuit allows you to move next to an enemy moving away from you as an immediate action. So forth.


Speaking of miss chances, it's arguable that you'd have a better chance to hit a caster using Mirror Image spell if you closed your eyes before attacking.

[Yitzi]

Don't really see the point in nerfing stoneskin though. After all, it can only prevent 10 points of damage at a time, that's already pretty weak for a 4th level spell in my opinion. By the time you get it at 7th level, most creatures will be overcoming DR Magic anyway, by virtue of either magic weapons or by possessing DR/Magic themselves, which makes all their natural weapons magic weapons.

Yes, it is a somewhat niche spell, but does have its uses (such as protecting you from the enemy's backup weapon once the fighter, or Shatter if you're desperate, has eliminated his primary, or protecting you from mooks.) And preventing 10 damage at a time isn't all that weak; high-damage attacks with reliable hit chances are pretty hard to get at that level with only Core sources.


The problem here is that you're targeting highly specific aspects of the game; particular spells, combinations, and how these things interact with others. These rulings are so specific as to target specific spells, ignoring the vast multitude of other combinations and particular spells that could do greater things.

By restricting it to Core, the broken combinations should be eliminated (and if not, there's always the DM saying that broken combos will be made to not work; it's only the individual spells and things that are designed to work together that can't just be tossed out.)


1) It is highly situational. Any combinations or situations you miss will fly under the radar and undermine your fixes, and might actually create new problems.

It's a possibility, but unless there are particular issues it's not such a big deal.


2) It requires a lot of effort to go through and hand-fix every little spell.

Some, but there are only several hundred Core spells, and most don't need fixing.


3) This extra effort, or the desire to not have to do it, will likely restrict you to core

That's ok, the lack of sourcebooks will restrict me to core anyway.


which is one of the most broken aspects of the game

Fixing that is the whole point of this exercise.


and severely limiting to classes who only really got love in later splatbooks (like Tome of Battle).

A mix of houseruled material and a bit from Pathfinder should solve that.


4) The more individual fixes you make, the harder each one will be to remember during play, so the harder it becomes to actually implement your solution.

That's why I'm posting it online. Note that there aren't all that many here.


This approach would be fine if the problem was caused by only a select few features, but it's not. The problem is magic as a whole.

I don't really see it that way...other than a select few features, magic is defensively quite balanced. Utility would need a bit more, but also not so bad, and when it comes to offense, I am going for a broad fix.


You can already cleave off mirror images.

This makes it clear.


There are a couple feats that really help in killing wizards.
Mage Slayer makes casting on the defensive impossible in the area you threaten. Then from pathfinder there is a feat called Step-up. Which lets you as an immediate action use your 5ft step from your next turn to counter a foes 5ft step.

Neither is Core, though, although I'll probably copy Step-up for my fighter fix.


If your blind you'd ignore displacement as you can't see the image to begin with.

Another way of saying that concealment miss chances don't stack.


There are also a couple of other things, if you get near the caster. Thicket of Blades causes 5ft. steps to provoke AoO. Mirrored Pursuit allows you to move next to an enemy moving away from you as an immediate action. So forth.

Not core.


Speaking of miss chances, it's arguable that you'd have a better chance to hit a caster using Mirror Image spell if you closed your eyes before attacking.

That's why I limited it to 2 images per square, so that if you target the right square (which you need to do with closed eyes as well) you've got a 50% chance either way.

[jiriku]

A large portion of why wizards are Tier 1 is their defensive capabilities. This is meant to weaken them so that "squishy wizard" takes on meaning again. It assumes the existence of a fighter fix that makes archery a relatively decent tactic, as well as making them able to at least somewhat play the role of meatshield.

-Miss chances do not stack, but rather overlap (if all of the same nature, such as concealment), or are rolled totally separately (if of different natures). This is really just RAW.
-See Invisibility can target others. It is therefore available in potion form (a roll on random tables of 81 for a minor potion, 37 for medium, or 11 for major.)
-Mirror images can be targeted like creatures, including by abilities such as Magic Missile and Whirlwind Attack. Destroying an image does count as dropping a creature for the Cleave feat.
-Furthermore, mirror images must each be within a 5' distance to each other image. There can be up to 2 images (including the real thing) in a 5' square, so that means the maximum, except when flying, is actually 7 images plus the caster.
-Polymorph-type spells are fixed as per this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204434).
-Stoneskin is DR 10/magic, not 10/adamantine. In compensation, the material component is only the granite, no diamond dust (so no material component cost.)

Thoughts?

Miss chances already work as you describe.
Potions already work as you describe.
The nerf to mirror image sounds promising, although it does more for ranged characters than for melee, since wizzies tend to move around and melee has trouble making multiple attacks on the move.
Polymorph changes... eh. I abstain.
You have made stoneskin better, not worse. The ridiculous gp cost marginalized it horribly, and even with an inferior type of DR, it's better now that it doesn't cost money to use. That being said, a limited, ablative DR bypassed by easily available weapons should be acceptable.

For a core-only game, this is... a good start. However, you haven't addressed range and flight, nor have you addressed wind wall. When I am 150 ft in the air, invisible, and lobbing targeted spells at you that don't betray my location, you're going to die before you find me, and that's all there is to it. And if you do find me via a potion of see invisible, My wind wall will totally shut down your archery and thrown weapons. It's problematic. An easy nerf on wind wall is just to allow archery at a -8 (or even -4 penalty), though.

Wizard defense should also be considered holistically. For example, wall of force, solid fog, and bigby's grasping hand are all good defensive spells, because they deny the enemy the opportunity to make an attack roll, thus rendering my pitiful wizardly AC irrelevant.

[Yitzi]

Miss chances already work as you describe.

I know they do. But from comments I've seen it would appear that some others don't know it, which is why I made it explicit and then noted that it really isn't a change.


Potions already work as you describe.

Yes, except that before they couldn't hold See Invisibility (since it was personal-only), and now they can (since it can affect others.)


The nerf to mirror image sounds promising, although it does more for ranged characters than for melee, since wizzies tend to move around and melee has trouble making multiple attacks on the move.

For ranged characters, or those who can keep the wizard in place (be it via tripping or whatever), or those who the wizard is afraid to take an AoOs from each time he moves away. Between those, that should cover enough that mirror image is no longer a powerful defense on anything close to a reliable basis.


You have made stoneskin better, not worse. The ridiculous gp cost marginalized it horribly, and even with an inferior type of DR, it's better now that it doesn't cost money to use. That being said, a limited, ablative DR bypassed by easily available weapons should be acceptable.

Essentially, it's Protection from Arrows against both melee and range. It's more useful overall, but less abusable. In other words, more balanced.


For a core-only game, this is... a good start. However, you haven't addressed range and flight, nor have you addressed wind wall.

Range and flight are both dealt with by making archery a halfway decent tactic. Wind wall does need addressing, though, I'll add something for that. Thanks.


When I am 150 ft in the air, invisible, and lobbing targeted spells at you that don't betray my location, you're going to die before you find me, and that's all there is to it. And if you do find me via a potion of see invisible, My wind wall will totally shut down your archery and thrown weapons. It's problematic. An easy nerf on wind wall is just to allow archery at a -8 (or even -4 penalty), though.

I'd say -4.


Wizard defense should also be considered holistically. For example, wall of force, solid fog, and bigby's grasping hand are all good defensive spells, because they deny the enemy the opportunity to make an attack roll, thus rendering my pitiful wizardly AC irrelevant.

Those are really utility spells rather than defensive spells (the difference is a defensive spell protects the target, a utility spell used for defense can protect individuals other than the target), which is what the next fix will be for.