Why does Kelemvor allow resurrection? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

hobbitkniver

2011-08-16, 05:39 PM

For anyone who doesn't know, he's the Lawful neutral god of the dead in the Forgotten Realms. It specifically says he doesn't like people who extend their natural life through magic and undead are abombinations to him. He seems to really like helping the dying and grants true resurrection to heroes when it's needed. IMO, healing and raise dead/resurrection seems to be against his morals. Am I missing something or is this just badly thought out. Also, where can I find more infor on the gods? I read about him in Faiths and Pantheons, and he isn't in Complete Champion.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-08-16, 05:40 PM

Big Fau

2011-08-16, 05:42 PM

Also, where can I find more infor on the gods? I read about him in Faiths and Pantheons, and he isn't in Complete Champion.

Complete Champion was about the PHB Pantheon. The FR pantheon got it's support in Champions of Valor/Ruin.

And don't apply logic to DnD settings, it really doesn't work. Especially regarding Faerun.

Psyren

2011-08-16, 06:36 PM

And don't apply logic to DnD settings, it really doesn't work. Especially regarding Faerun.

This. There are so many inconsistencies it's not even funny.

hobbitkniver

2011-08-16, 06:45 PM

This. There are so many inconsistencies it's not even funny.

If it wasn't allowed, probably no one would want him as their deity.

Vandicus

2011-08-16, 06:52 PM

Well firstly, he doesn't have any say in whether or not a character who worshipped a god is going to be revived or not. His main concern shown in the NWN 2 video game is ensuring that the gods are worshipped due to the threat of death and the Wall of the Faithless. After the Time of Troubles, gods needed worshippers to survive and have power. Without the Wall of the Faithless, people don't need to worship gods to save themselves in the afterlife, and undead are another way to circumvent the need to worship deities. Revival and reincarnation are granted by deities, which requires worship in itself. Its still necessary to worship to them.

Psyren

2011-08-16, 06:55 PM

If it wasn't allowed, probably no one would want him as their deity.

He's not a popular choice of patron, but then neither was his predecessor Jergal (the fatalistic deities and their clergy are rarely known for being personable.) Despite this, pretty much every denizen of the Realms has to pay lip service to all the deities at various times in their lives, even the ones they hate (Umberlee, Beshaba and Talos come to mind.) Naturally, Kelemvor would come up when someone close to you dies. So he is pretty widely respected if not adored.

Also, undead plague the Realms, and Kelemvor is only behind Lathander when it comes to putting them down for good; better still, he doesn't take a happy-sunny-optimist approach to their destruction that many would find naive or distasteful. Just about anyone who hates undead - not merely "wishes to oppose," but hates - has adequate reason to choose him as their patron.

Saintheart

2011-08-16, 08:44 PM

Bear in mind also that souls don't have to be raised or resurrected if they don't want to be. Also, "helping the dying" can mean helping speed them on without suffering through death, not necessarily healing them.

ffone

2011-08-16, 08:47 PM

He does so when it wasn't supposed to be the victim's time to die yet.

He's rather a stickler about dying when it is your time. Not before. Not after. So if you are prematurely killed, a Res spell fixes this.

+1. References to 'natural life span' etc. usually refer to 'age death' (reaching the end of venerable) rather than 'naturally dying from the plague or a dagger through the heart' (I think one of the Drizzt books had a joke about that - "he died of natural causes; it's quite natural to die when stabbed through the chest").

Makiru

2011-08-16, 09:02 PM

True Resurrection doesn't work if the target has already advanced to his/her maximum age. Now, I don't know much about the FR gods, but it sounds like he's OK with True Rez because it doesn't actually extend their life span, unlike lichdom and other unsavory things.

Alleran

2011-08-16, 09:26 PM

He does so when it wasn't supposed to be the victim's time to die yet.

He's rather a stickler about dying when it is your time. Not before. Not after. So if you are prematurely killed, a Res spell fixes this.
This.

His dogma:

"Recognise that death is part of life. It is not an ending but a beginning, not a punishment but a necessity. Death is an orderly process without deceit, concealment, and randomness. Help others die with dignity at their appointed time and no sooner. Speak against those that would artificially prolong their life beyond natural limits, such as the undead. Do honour to the dead, for their strivings in life brought Faerun to where it is now. Forgetting them is to forget where we are now, and why. Let no human in all Faerun die a natural death without one of Kelemvor's clerics at their side."

There's also a brief notation in F&P:

"At a private ceremony known as the Daeum, clerics of Kelemvor celebrate their deity's soothing doctrine and fund church activities with the goods of those who have died without heirs. Both Shieldmeet and the Feats of the Moon are of special spiritual significance to Kelemvor's adherents, when clerics recount the Deeds of the Dead that they never be forgotten. Rarely, powerful clerics use these days to cast True Resurrection, returning to life heroes of the distant past who are needed in the present day."

Kelemvor isn't opposed to resurrection when it is necessary. He probably takes the approach that eventually, everybody dies (for good, that is) and comes back to him in the end. It's only people that explicitly go out of their way to avoid it that he hates.

tyckspoon

2011-08-16, 09:28 PM

This.

His dogma:

Kelemvor isn't opposed to resurrection when it is necessary. He probably takes the approach that eventually, everybody dies (for good, that is) and comes back to him in the end. It's only people that explicitly go out of their way to avoid it that he hates.

He probably gets in huge screaming matches with the nature gods about Reincarnate.

Alleran

2011-08-16, 09:30 PM

He probably gets in huge screaming matches with the nature gods about Reincarnate.
So does Mechanus, too. Inevitables, Inevitables everywhere. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm)

Fouredged Sword

2011-08-16, 09:32 PM

It's all the comeing and going and comeing and going! All the paperwork! If you want to bounce back once or twice as a hero that's OK, but really! Not every rich noble needs to be resurected after they get thrown from a horse!

Psyren

2011-08-16, 09:35 PM

He probably gets in huge screaming matches with the nature gods about Reincarnate.

I'm convinced that a CN one came up with that just to troll him.

Coidzor

2011-08-17, 12:52 AM

He's also contractually obligated due to that whole letting the god of magic's magic do it's thing & the whole Lord Ao has a big stick thing.

So does Mechanus, too. Inevitables, Inevitables everywhere. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/inevitable.htm)

On the walls, on the ceilings... In the Rogue's bag of holding...

Bear in mind also that souls don't have to be raised or resurrected if they don't want to be. Also, "helping the dying" can mean helping speed them on without suffering through death, not necessarily healing them.

You are going to end up evil if you repeatedly murder in the face people you could easily heal with a CLW though.

deuxhero

2011-08-17, 12:57 AM

After the Time of Troubles, gods needed worshippers to survive and have power. Without the Wall of the Faithless, people don't need to worship gods to save themselves in the afterlife, and undead are another way to circumvent the need to worship deities. Revival and reincarnation are granted by deities, which requires worship in itself. Its still necessary to worship to them.

You read that right! He's holding your soul hostage for power!

Coidzor

2011-08-17, 12:59 AM

You read that right! He's holding your soul hostage for power!

Because the other gods got together and complained to Lord Ao & got him to get out his big stick & threaten Kelemvor if he didn't start doing this for 'em.

So really, he's holding your soul hostage for others' power.

Because.

Greymane

2011-08-17, 01:05 AM

Because the other gods got together and complained to Lord Ao & got him to get out his big stick & threaten Kelemvor if he didn't start doing this for 'em.

So really, he's holding your soul hostage for others' power.

Because.

And this is (part of) the reason my next BBEG intends to slay as many gods as possible and bring the Wall crashing down. For the sake of mortals.

I'm told NWN 2 beat me to this plot, though. :smallfrown:

Shadowknight12

2011-08-17, 01:14 AM

And this is (part of) the reason my next BBEG intends to slay as many gods as possible and bring the Wall crashing down. For the sake of mortals.

I'm told NWN 2 beat me to this plot, though. :smallfrown:

It did, but from the opposite side of the fence. In NWN2, destroying the Wall is seen as a heroic but foolish and defiant act, that many disagree with. The protagonist may choose to continue the Crusade to tear down the Wall or oppose it, but it's their choice. There's no BBEG trying to do that.

You can have the same plot from the opposite side, though. Just keep in mind that the BBEG might earn the sympathies of your players because the Wall of the Faithless is often seen as a monstrously evil and utterly unnecessary construction.

BladeofObliviom

2011-08-17, 01:22 AM

Drachasor

2011-08-17, 01:23 AM

FR has such a ethically abhorrent afterlife system that it justifies a Rage Against the Heavens (and Hells and Inbetweens).

Making Kelemvor stop being nice to the dead who weren't evil* yet didn't worship a god was really messed up.

*Not that eternal suffering is justified for anyone.

ShneekeyTheLost

2011-08-17, 01:23 AM

All in all, you're just a... nother brick in the wall.

We don't need no education...

We don't need no thought control...

Greymane

2011-08-17, 01:27 AM

It did, but from the opposite side of the fence. In NWN2, destroying the Wall is seen as a heroic but foolish and defiant act, that many disagree with. The protagonist may choose to continue the Crusade to tear down the Wall or oppose it, but it's their choice. There's no BBEG trying to do that.

You can have the same plot from the opposite side, though. Just keep in mind that the BBEG might earn the sympathies of your players because the Wall of the Faithless is often seen as a monstrously evil and utterly unnecessary construction.

Huh. Well, I plan to keep the plot. Earning sympathies from the players is part of the point, though. My players have become experts of identifying within the black and white system of morality in D&D. "He's consorting with fiends! That means he's evil! *Smite!*". I want to throw a little moral ambiguity at them.

I'll even have things in order just in case they side with the BBEG, so they can go off and fight a few Gods too.

Worira

2011-08-17, 01:28 AM

Coidzor

2011-08-17, 01:37 AM

You can have the same plot from the opposite side, though. Just keep in mind that the BBEG might earn the sympathies of your players because the Wall of the Faithless is often seen as a monstrously evil and utterly unnecessary construction.

Because it is. :smalltongue:

Huh. Well, I plan to keep the plot. Earning sympathies from the players is part of the point, though. My players have become experts of identifying within the black and white system of morality in D&D. "He's consorting with fiends! That means he's evil! *Smite!*". I want to throw a little moral ambiguity at them.

I'll even have things in order just in case they side with the BBEG, so they can go off and fight a few Gods too.

Of course, if anyone is at all familiar with realmslore, they're going to get mighty curious why they're not getting spanked by Lord Ao, and by spanked by Lord Ao, I mean unwritten from reality.

Drachasor

2011-08-17, 01:37 AM

Actually, a plot revolving around a powerful figure trying to tear down the Wall of the Faithless might be interesting, due to having less of a clear right and wrong than "Lord Badvile The Murderprince wants to kill five thousand babies in a ritual to summon demons! Stop him, or the demons will also kill babies!".

Eh, how is it less clear? Tearing down the wall is pretty much unambiguously RIGHT. Even the worst cases did nothing to deserve an afterlife of freakish misery FOR ALL ETERNITY, and tons of people in it did nothing more "wrong" than NOT worship a god.

Saintheart

2011-08-17, 01:44 AM

All in all, you're just a... nother brick in the wall.

We don't need no education...

We don't need no thought control...

Given the minor key the song's played in, somebody took some levels in bard before going cleric of Kelemvor.

Saintheart

2011-08-17, 01:45 AM

Drachasor

2011-08-17, 01:45 AM

Of course, if anyone is at all familiar with realmslore, they're going to get mighty curious why they're not getting spanked by Lord Ao, and by spanked by Lord Ao, I mean unwritten from reality.

Hmm, well, I don't recall Ao ever doing anything harmful to humans. He seems to have the power to promote a human to a deity, but it actually might be outside his jurisdiction to kill or even hinder mortals.

Saintheart

2011-08-17, 01:47 AM

Hmm, well, I don't recall Ao ever doing anything harmful to humans. He seems to have the power to promote a human to a deity, but it actually might be outside his jurisdiction to kill or even hinder mortals.

I'd call promoting Cyric to a god (not to mention Bhaal, Bane, and Myrkul given their track records) a rather indirect killing or hindering of considerable numbers of mortals via the Spellplague. (cue deity debate)

Greymane

2011-08-17, 01:49 AM

Of course, if anyone is at all familiar with realmslore, they're going to get mighty curious why they're not getting spanked by Lord Ao, and by spanked by Lord Ao, I mean unwritten from reality.

Yeah, well, if they actually veered off to wreck the Wall and succeed, then they will have consequences to deal with.

Though I suppose not even the BBEG has a defense against being unwritten from reality. Glaring weakness, that, when contending with creatures with no stats. :smalltongue:

Drachasor

2011-08-17, 01:52 AM

I'd call promoting Cyric to a god (not to mention Bhaal, Bane, and Myrkul given their track records) a rather indirect killing or hindering of considerable numbers of mortals via the Spellplague. (cue deity debate)

Right, but I mean in terms of technical limitations (he has a boss and duties and whatnot). He can replace gods, fill vacancies, but I don't think we've ever seen him spend an ounce of power outside of that. He might only be allowed to meddle with gods and replace them and only in certain circumstances. Naturally that might lead to mortal suffering, but that doesn't mean he could snap his fingers and kill a mortal. Same with helping mortals.

Edit: Actually, for all we know Ao could be distinctly vulnerable to mortals. He could be completely incapable of defending himself from them except by not being around them. Hmm, that would be an interesting thing to have in a Rage Against the Heavens campaign.

Coidzor

2011-08-17, 01:54 AM

Hmm, well, I don't recall Ao ever doing anything harmful to humans. He seems to have the power to promote a human to a deity, but it actually might be outside his jurisdiction to kill or even hinder mortals.

Does the term Overdeity mean nothing to you?

The individual who governs the universe so completely he sets the rules the gods operate under & can mindrape people into ceasing to remember him after they've started churches in his name... and you want to say that it might be outside his jurisdiction to "hinder mortals."

Glaring weakness, that, when contending with creatures with no stats. :smalltongue:

Yeah, Ed Greenwood is a beast to take on.

Right, but I mean in terms of technical limitations (he has a boss and duties and whatnot).

:smallconfused:

Lord Ao does not have a boss as far as we know. He is the boss. Unless you count Ed Greenwood/WoTC, who he's more of a stand-in mask for anyway. :smalltongue:

Edit: Actually, for all we know Ao could be distinctly vulnerable to mortals. He could be completely incapable of defending himself from them except by not being around them. Hmm, that would be an interesting thing to have in a Rage Against the Heavens campaign.

Now that's just crazy talk.

deuxhero

2011-08-17, 01:55 AM

What? Elminster has stats and rather bad ones at that! :)

Drachasor

2011-08-17, 02:00 AM

Does the term Overdeity mean nothing to you?

The individual who governs the universe so completely he sets the rules the gods operate under & can mindrape people into ceasing to remember him after they've started churches in his name... and you want to say that it might be outside his jurisdiction to "hinder mortals."

Hmm, does he actually erase the memory of the people worshiping him? If so then that contradicts my idea.

Lord Ao does not have a boss as far as we know. He is the boss. Unless you count Ed Greenwood/WoTC, who he's more of a stand-in mask for anyway. :smalltongue:

He does have a boss. I think it is at the end of the Avatar series (or something) where he contacts his boss and says things are going smoothly now.

Saintheart

2011-08-17, 02:03 AM

He does have a boss. I think it is at the end of the Avatar series (or something) where he contacts his boss and says things are going smoothly now.

10 out of 10. It's the last pages of "Waterdeep". Ao sort-of "turns himself inward" to meet the overseer of multiple galaxies/universes/whatever and proclaims that the Realms are safe once more. Or at least safe for the life of the current edition. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: On a slightly more serious note, and a bit more on topic, most of the current debate ignores how relatively rare accessible resurrection magic is. Resurrection will cost you 5,000 gp in diamonds. Most commoners don't earn that sort of money in their entire lives - adventurers are overwhelmingly loaded compared with Dennis and Brian the Shrubber.

BladeofObliviom

2011-08-17, 02:04 AM

Eh, how is it less clear? Tearing down the wall is pretty much unambiguously RIGHT. Even the worst cases did nothing to deserve an afterlife of freakish misery FOR ALL ETERNITY, and tons of people in it did nothing more "wrong" than NOT worship a god.

To be fair, the wall does finish eating you eventually. Then there's the peace of oblivion. :smallamused:

If it was torn down, however, Gods would weaken and die from their newfound relative lack of worshippers. If the gods die, people lose divine magic, all clerics become underpowered, and bad stuff goes down from no more resurrections or healing spells.

At least in theory.

deuxhero

2011-08-17, 02:08 AM

That's what Artificers are for :)

Greymane

2011-08-17, 02:09 AM

To be fair, the wall does finish eating you eventually. Then there's the peace of oblivion. :smallamused:

If it was torn down, however, Gods would weaken and die from their newfound relative lack of worshippers. If the gods die, people lose divine magic, all clerics become underpowered, and bad stuff goes down from no more resurrections or healing spells.

At least in theory.

We'll just Gate over to Oerth and borrow a few Ur-Priests? :smallamused:

Drachasor

2011-08-17, 02:13 AM

To be fair, the wall does finish eating you eventually. Then there's the peace of oblivion. :smallamused:

Ahh, well, still pretty horrible, but not quite as evil as I thought.

If it was torn down, however, Gods would weaken and die from their newfound relative lack of worshippers. If the gods die, people lose divine magic, all clerics become underpowered, and bad stuff goes down from no more resurrections or healing spells.

At least in theory.

Clerics become bards. Healing remains. As for rezzing...well, you can always clone 'em.

Coidzor

2011-08-17, 02:14 AM

If it was torn down, however, Gods would weaken and die from their newfound relative lack of worshippers.

That's what, y'know, providing benefits to one's followers & doing one's job is supposed to do anyway.

Hmm, does he actually erase the memory of the people worshiping him? If so then that contradicts my idea.

All of the churches that sprang up to him during that time started to out and out just lose all recollection of him over time. So you're really going to have to reach to find an alternate explanation.

He does have a boss. I think it is at the end of the Avatar series (or something) where he contacts his boss and says things are going smoothly now.

Right. Breaking the fourth wall in the book as a reference to WOTC. Right.

Ahh, well, still pretty horrible, but not quite as evil as I thought.

Considering your options are "mindraped into a crude parody of your original self by your patron deity," "eaten by fiends for raw materials," and "horribly and agonizingly unmade over eons," it's still pretty evil all around in the Realms afterlife.

Clerics become bards. Healing remains. As for rezzing...well, you can always clone 'em.

It'd be a real easy way to encourage anyone who wants to use magic to default to Mystra or Shar, that's for sure.

Drachasor

2011-08-17, 02:21 AM

It'd be a real easy way to encourage anyone who wants to use magic to default to Mystra or Shar, that's for sure.

Well, you don't have to worship a god of magic to use arcane magic, AFAIK. That's just common, unless I've missed something. Mystra would probably set things up so magic remained if she was going to die and knew it.

If not...well...it isn't like we have things that bad on Earth. If I had to choose between our problems or crazy wizards running around trying to take over the world, and evil gods trying to cause misery for the sake of misery...well, I think I prefer what we got here. Our reality doesn't have any elements that are actively malicious built into it.

Saintheart

2011-08-17, 02:25 AM

Our reality doesn't have any elements that are actively malicious built into it.

Well, aside from that whole e=mc2 thing. Bastards. :smallbiggrin:

Coidzor

2011-08-17, 02:34 AM

Well, you don't have to worship a god of magic to use arcane magic, AFAIK. That's just common, unless I've missed something. Mystra would probably set things up so magic remained if she was going to die and knew it.

It was being posited that the gods would die off from lack of worship. If the gods die off, Mystra must then also die off. If Mystra dies, the magic goes bye-bye due to the nature of "The Weave(TM)." Thus, anyone and everyone who would want to continue to use magic would have to worship either her or Shar, as Shar allows her followers access to her "Shadow Weave(also TM)" instead of Mystra's weave due to hating Mystra and wanting to omnomnom her into being one with Shar.

Mystra is unable to set things up so that magic would remain if she died. Her predecessors were similarly unable to do so. It's kind of intrinsically linked to her existence.

That's how they set off the Cataclysm to nerf magic down to 4e levels for the Forgotten Realms setting, Mystra getting ganked.

edit: Hmm, it appears I was responding to the wrong post with my initial reply that quoted you, sorry.

BladeofObliviom

2011-08-17, 02:40 AM

That's what, y'know, providing benefits to one's followers & doing one's job is supposed to do anyway.

To be fair, I did say it was in theory. :smalltongue:

Drachasor

2011-08-17, 02:47 AM

It was being posited that the gods would die off from lack of worship. If the gods die off, Mystra must then also die off. If Mystra dies, the magic goes bye-bye due to the nature of "The Weave(TM)." Thus, anyone and everyone who would want to continue to use magic would have to worship either her or Shar, as Shar allows her followers access to her "Shadow Weave(also TM)" instead of Mystra's weave due to hating Mystra and wanting to omnomnom her into being one with Shar.

Mystra is unable to set things up so that magic would remain if she died. Her predecessors were similarly unable to do so. It's kind of intrinsically linked to her existence.

That's how they set off the Cataclysm to nerf magic down to 4e levels for the Forgotten Realms setting, Mystra getting ganked.

edit: Hmm, it appears I was responding to the wrong post with my initial reply that quoted you, sorry.

AFAIK, everytime magic has gone crazy in the Realms, Mystra lost power and was not prepared for it. There's no particular reason, afaik, she couldn't set things up right if she knew she was going to do. Though, perhaps I am not quite remembering how she handled the Time of Troubles. I can't remember exactly how much foresight she had there (I know she had a little bit of time to prepare at least). This seemed to be the least crazy time for magic though compared to the one before and the one after -- I think.

Coidzor

2011-08-17, 02:50 AM

AFAIK, everytime magic has gone crazy in the Realms, Mystra lost power and was not prepared for it.

Considering what happened the last time, and the Mystra that replaced the first one that wasn't actually named Mystra, if it could be prepared for, those preparations would have already been done and put in place long ago.

This seemed to be the least crazy time for magic though compared to the one before and the one after -- I think.

It didn't matter in the first place because she didn't actually die until the end and when she did die, she had a replacement already on hand to take over the job from her as she was dying.

Worira

2011-08-17, 02:54 AM

It seems like if you need to worship Mystra to use magic at all, Mystra probably wouldn't need to worry too much about disapoofing from lack of followers even without the Wall.

Coidzor

2011-08-17, 02:57 AM

It seems like if you need to worship Mystra to use magic at all, Mystra probably wouldn't need to worry too much about disapoofing from lack of followers even without the Wall.

That's kinda what I was going for, yes.

Unlike the rest of the deities, her existence is very tightly linked to a fundamental property of the universe functioning properly.

Worira

2011-08-17, 02:59 AM

So... without the wall, gods who people don't need will die out, while actually useful ones will remain? WHAT A TERRIBLE TRAGEDY BEYOND COMPARE!!!111!!

Justyn

2011-08-17, 03:58 AM

So... after reading through this thread, I kind of want to play in (or maybe run) a game where a bunch of the eponymous Exalted from Exalted get transported over into Faerun... partly, so that they could go in and kung-fu that wall apart. And just generally see what kind of havoc they can bring into the Realms. God I love that game.

Greymane

2011-08-17, 04:40 AM

So... without the wall, gods who people don't need will die out, while actually useful ones will remain? WHAT A TERRIBLE TRAGEDY BEYOND COMPARE!!!111!!

Dude! This is Toril! Do you have any idea just how many divine corpses that would be?!

Wings of Peace

2011-08-17, 04:40 AM

He might allow it if returning the life in question contributed in some part to a larger series of events, even if it's just more people dying.

Coidzor

2011-08-17, 04:46 AM

Dude! This is Toril! Do you have any idea just how many divine corpses that would be?!

The Githyanki have a field day and a huge population boom. Before realizing they're shang-hai'd on the Astral Plane without Mystra.

Greymane

2011-08-17, 04:49 AM

The Githyanki have a field day and a huge population boom. Before realizing they're shang-hai'd on the Astral Plane without Mystra.

I hate you for using that joke before me. :smalltongue:

Githyanki Real Estate Agent here I come.

Big Fau

2011-08-17, 06:31 AM

Our reality doesn't have any elements that are actively malicious built into it.

You do know that Uranium is a naturally occurring metal, right? And so is Lead? And Nickel? And Chrome?

And that prior to us studying the effects of radiation on human beings, it was possible for children to pick up uranium nuggets because they were literally on the ground in some countries?

Nature is trying to kill us, and the only thing stopping it is SCIENCE!

only1doug

2011-08-17, 07:57 AM

silphael

2011-08-17, 08:02 AM

On this topic, I'll say: "the only thing explaining how is science"

On the question of faithless and so, I'll ask a question:

"What is your answer on an near infinite string of "Why?"?"

Drachasor

2011-08-17, 10:32 AM

You do know that Uranium is a naturally occurring metal, right? And so is Lead? And Nickel? And Chrome?

And that prior to us studying the effects of radiation on human beings, it was possible for children to pick up uranium nuggets because they were literally on the ground in some countries?

Nature is trying to kill us, and the only thing stopping it is SCIENCE!

I didn't mean to imply the world wasn't dangerous. Merely that there weren't supremely powerful beings actively trying to hurt people.

One difference that makes is that a safe and happy Earth is possible. Maybe it will take a few hundred years, maybe a few thousand, whatever. Point is, there are no laws of reality stopping it from happening. On Toril? There will always be evil gods out to hurt/enslave/whatever everyone. If one dies, then Ao will replace him (if the replacement doesn't happen naturally).

On the question of faithless and so, I'll ask a question:

"What is your answer on an near infinite string of "Why?"?"

I'm not entirely sure what your point is. Our point is that it doesn't matter how the faithless answer such questions. Whatever their answer, it doesn't remotely justify anything bad happening to them. Also, please bear in mind nothing stops the Faithless from believing in Toril's gods. A faithless is someone that doesn't worship a god, which is quite a different thing.

For example, a faithless could be someone that spent their whole life helping others. They could even like some or all of the good gods and perhaps even help them out now and then. If this person doesn't WORSHIP one of those gods though, then he goes to the wall.

Downysole

2011-08-17, 10:35 AM

Drachasor

2011-08-17, 10:37 AM

If you want more insight into Kelemvor's persona, you should go through the Avatar series of books. I think he changed a bit between the books and ascending, but it would give you some good flavor if you intend to use him in your game.

I will say Kelemvor himself is pretty cool....until he gets forced to be a evil jerk by the other gods.