[PF] UC is Up!

[Curious]

Good news everyone! Ultimate Combat is up on the PFSRD! Check it out, discuss.

[TurtleKing]

Not yet it isn't or if they have only portions of it.

[Curious]

Not yet it isn't or if they have only portions of it.

Hm, they have the classes up, but you're right, the archetypes and feats aren't up yet. Darn it.

[Tetrasodium]

Good news everyone! Ultimate Combat is up on the PFSRD! Check it out, discuss.

apparantly not fully yet :(. UC has some really nice stuff in it though, about the only gripe I had was that the katana was not finessable :(

[Blisstake]

I was confused for a second, because I bought it like 12 days ago :smalltongue:

But yeah, nice to see it on the website.

[Shadowbane]

Off-topic...but now that Gunslinger is up are there guides to it anywhere, or at least general build? I'm thinking dual revolvers using TWF.

[Curious]

Off-topic...but now that Gunslinger is up are there guides to it anywhere, or at least general build? I'm thinking dual revolvers using TWF.

Be a Pistolero, wield Revolvers. Accept nothing less.

[Starbuck_II]

Off-topic...but now that Gunslinger is up are there guides to it anywhere, or at least general build? I'm thinking dual revolvers using TWF.

There is one:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/advice/drakeRocketsGuideToGrandGunslingingerGreatness

There is also a Playtest one, but it was never updated:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10256085

[Ravens_cry]

I am thinking a pistol packing (but not grit) arcane trickster, but which is your guys opinion is better: Rogue 1/ Wizard 7/ Master Spy 1/Arcane Trickster, or Rogue 3/Wizard 3/ Arcane Trickster? Basically, I want to mix magic with sneak attack, and sneak attack with magic, hitting touch attacks with both pistol and spell.
There is a trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack) that gives you a +2 bonus on caster level (as long as the bonus from it doesn't exceed your HD) and while it doesn't make up for lost spells, most spells a Arcane Trickster wants aren't terribly high level anyway.

[stainboy]

I was confused for a second, because I bought it like 12 days ago :smalltongue:

But yeah, nice to see it on the website.

The d20pfsrd people have an agreement with Paizo to hold new content for two weeks. So this is right on schedule.

So, Pathfinder printed an alternate rogue that can get invisibility in-class, can get darkvision in case you picked the wrong race and still want to be able to sneak after level 3, can sneak attack undead (because it's pathfinder), can reconfigure its class features on the fly, and has an extra attack ability so you can do a melee build that isn't dualwield and not get laughed at. And it does all this without giving up UMD or 8+Int skill points or a single sneak attack die. It's no wizard but it looks an awful lot like giving melee nice things.

In short, the ninja is too anime and I hate it.

[Curious]

The d20pfsrd people have an agreement with Paizo to hold new content for two weeks. So this is right on schedule.

So, the Pathfinder printed a alternate rogue that can get invisibility in-class, can get darkvision in case you picked the wrong race and still want to be able to sneak after level 3, can sneak attack undead (because it's pathfinder), can reconfigure its class features on the fly, and has an extra attack ability so you can do a melee build that isn't dualwield and not get laughed at. And it does all this without giving up UMD or 8+Int skill points or a single sneak attack die. It's no wizard but it looks an awful lot like giving melee nice things.

In short, the ninja is too anime and I hate it.

:smallamused:

Seriously, all I'm wondering is if all these good things actually push the Ninja/Rogue up into the low tier-3 area. Invisibility, lots o' skill points, all the other stuff you listed. . . It seems pretty solid to me, although of course not on the level of a Factotum.

[CTrees]

I am thinking a pistol packing (but not grit) arcane trickster, but which is your guys opinion is better: Rogue 1/ Wizard 7/ Master Spy 1/Arcane Trickster, or Rogue 3/Wizard 3/ Arcane Trickster? Basically, I want to mix magic with sneak attack, and sneak attack with magic, hitting touch attacks with both pistol and spell.
There is a trait (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-knack) that gives you a +2 bonus on caster level (as long as the bonus from it doesn't exceed your HD) and while it doesn't make up for lost spells, most spells a Arcane Trickster wants aren't terribly high level anyway.

Rogue1/Sorceror4/Assassin1/AT, perhaps? Synthesist works in place of Sorceror, there.

Otherwise, i'd definitely go Rogue3/Wizard3/AT, possibly looking at Spellslinger, instead of straight Wizard.

[stainboy]

:smallamused:

Seriously, all I'm wondering is if all these good things actually push the Ninja/Rogue up into the low tier-3 area. Invisibility, lots o' skill points, all the other stuff you listed. . . It seems pretty solid to me, although of course not on the level of a Factotum.

The only big frustrating limitation left is being shut down by Blindsense. And pistols let you roll sneak attacks against loltouchAC so you can pull flask rogue cheese again. I don't care if you call it Tier 3 or Tier 4 or what, but you can definitely build a better sneak attacker than you could in 3.5.

[CTrees]

The only big frustrating limitation left is being shut down by Blindsense. And pistols let you roll sneak attacks against loltouchAC so you can pull flask rogue cheese again. I don't care if you call it Tier 3 or Tier 4 or what, but you can definitely build a better sneak attacker than you could in 3.5.

Blindsense has a range. Sniper Goggles. Ta-da, blindsense doesn't shut down a rogue/ninja that knows where to place himself (especially w/ guns).

[stainboy]

*checks SRD* Well ok then.

And it gives you +2 damage per sneak die. I guess we can also add "has a replacement for Craven" to the reasons the ninja pistolero is the new flask rogue.

[The Gilded Duke]

*checks SRD* Well ok then.

And it gives you +2 damage per sneak die. I guess we can also add "has a replacement for Craven" to the reasons the ninja pistolero is the new flask rogue.

There are also the fun Sap feats. One of them adds +2 damage per sneak attack die when using subdual bludgeoning. The other doubles sneak attack damage rolled.

[Cieyrin]

There is one:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/advice/drakeRocketsGuideToGrandGunslingingerGreatness

There is also a Playtest one, but it was never updated:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10256085

Firstly, YAY, linkage of my work! SQUEE! :smallbiggrin:

Secondly, I picked up UC yesterday and I may update the guide when I give Gunslinger and its supporting firearm rules a thorough read over. So excited to see Gunslinger as its own class as opposed to riding the coat tails of Fighter! :smallsmile: I'll give the Paizo guide a lookover as well and then get ahold of a mod to see if I can get the proper permissions for reviving the old thread with the newly available material...

Or perhaps it would be better to leave that as is and create a new thread for the new material, leaving the old guide for posterity... Decisions, decisions...

[Hiro Protagonest]

The only big frustrating limitation left is being shut down by Blindsense. And pistols let you roll sneak attacks against loltouchAC so you can pull flask rogue cheese again. I don't care if you call it Tier 3 or Tier 4 or what, but you can definitely build a better sneak attacker than you could in 3.5.

Rogue 1/SA fighter 1/spelltheif 1 is 3d6 at third level. Add four more levels of rogue, one assassin or avenger level, and one swordsage level for Assassin's Stance, and you get 8d6 at 9th level, plus Sapphire Nightmare Blade catches the opponent flat-footed. And all it requires is two books and the internet (SRD/avenger).

[senrath]

Or perhaps it would be better to leave that as is and create a new thread for the new material, leaving the old guide for posterity... Decisions, decisions...

I'd make a new thread. And then edit in a huge disclaimer at the top of the old one about how it was for the playtest version, and then give a link to the new one.

[CTrees]

I'd make a new thread. And then edit in a huge disclaimer at the top of the old one about how it was for the playtest version, and then give a link to the new one.

Seconded moar lettars!

[The Glyphstone]

Rogue 1/SA fighter 1/spelltheif 1 is 3d6 at third level. Add four more levels of rogue, one assassin or avenger level, and one swordsage level for Assassin's Stance, and you get 8d6 at 9th level, plus Sapphire Nightmare Blade catches the opponent flat-footed. And all it requires is two books and the internet (SRD/avenger).

Assassin's Stance is a 3rd-level stance. You can only obtain 1st-level stances at Swordsage 1, regardless of initiator level. You'd need 6 levels of non-SS classes, then 2 levels of Swordsage (or 10 levels of non-SS classes, then take a feat at 12th level for Martial Stance).

[Hiro Protagonest]

Assassin's Stance is a 3rd-level stance. You can only obtain 1st-level stances at Swordsage 1, regardless of initiator level. You'd need 6 levels of non-SS classes, then 2 levels of Swordsage (or 10 levels of non-SS classes, then take a feat at 12th level for Martial Stance).

That's a very strict reading of it, and it's hard to tell if that was RAI. But, two levels of swordsage gives you another stance, so 8d6 at 10th level.

[Cieyrin]

I'd make a new thread. And then edit in a huge disclaimer at the top of the old one about how it was for the playtest version, and then give a link to the new one.

Alrighty then. It would have been a shame to rip out the Fighter vs. Gunslinger section in any case, especially that picture of Indiana Jones.

Expect new guide to be up sometime in the next week, sooner if my gaming muse breaks out the Mountain Dew and Cheetos. :smallwink:

[Blisstake]

Rogue 1/SA fighter 1/spelltheif 1 is 3d6 at third level. Add four more levels of rogue, one assassin or avenger level, and one swordsage level for Assassin's Stance, and you get 8d6 at 9th level, plus Sapphire Nightmare Blade catches the opponent flat-footed. And all it requires is two books and the internet (SRD/avenger).

Yeah, but then what do you do when the enemy is immune to sneak attack? It's a lot more common in 3.5 than in PF which is why a lot of people are saying the PF rogue is better.

[Starbuck_II]

Yeah, but then what do you do when the enemy is immune to sneak attack? It's a lot more common in 3.5 than in PF which is why a lot of people are saying the PF rogue is better.

3.5, had numerous ways to counteract immunity;
Penetrating strike (3.5 archetype) trades trapsense for 1/2 damage sneak attack.
MIC had crystals that let you sneak attack
Spells that augment sneak attack to constructs, plants, etc.

Since trapsense is weak (+X to AC/saves vs taps) and only benefuts if you fail disabling, why not trade it.

But that means 3 levels of rogue required.

The 3.5 rogue was much better due to this counteraction as grease, glitterdust, blink: were not nerfed.
Also flasks: touch attacks that added sneak attack worked in 3.5.

Surpringly, people in pathfinder are just noticing how weak PF rogue have become in combat (though the rogue talents make them better in social stuff). The Ninja helps (giving a source of invisibility), but still the nerfs hurt.

[Blisstake]

Let me re-phrase. The PF rogue has a much better base than 3.5's. I am completely unaware of most of the items/ACFs that you mentioned, and I get the feeling many players would be unaware of them as well, and wouldn't necesarily have access to the items/features that can counter the many enemy immunities to sneak attack.

I'm also looking at the base on its own, rather than with spells attached. You won't always be adventuring with an arcane caster, and if you are, you'll probably be severely outmatched unless they're fairly unoptimized (in which case they might not have taken those specifically mentioned spells anyway)

So yes, while the 3.5 rogue can be better with specific options and particular items, the PF rogue doesn't require knowledge of these to be more or less consistently effective. If you're playing with high-optimizers and discluding most 3.5 material, then yes, PF is probably a step down for the rogue.

(Also, core-for-core, I think the PF rogue would also be better)

[stainboy]

Rogue 1/SA fighter 1/spelltheif 1 is 3d6 at third level. Add four more levels of rogue, one assassin or avenger level, and one swordsage level for Assassin's Stance, and you get 8d6 at 9th level, plus Sapphire Nightmare Blade catches the opponent flat-footed. And all it requires is two books and the internet (SRD/avenger).

Alright, I suppose I should have said you can build a better sneak attacker limited by some cheese ceiling I didn't bother to define. To me any build that dips more than one 20-level rogue variant is above the cheese ceiling but I couldn't come up with a well-reasoned argument for why that is.

But you are right, the rogue1/ spellthief1/ SA fighter 1/ psyrogue 1/ whatever 1/ Unseen Seer 2/ Assassin 1/ Stablord 1 / Shankmeister 1 /Fellshank Initiate 1 and so on ends up with more SA dice in 3.5.

[CTrees]

Is it bad that I really, really wish there was a stablord class?

Maybe I should just have my next character declare himself the stablord...

[Akisa]

What's a stablord?

[Luckmann]

The Cavalier archetypes still aren't up.

This makes me a sad panda, because it really should've been finished before UC was prioritized.

[CTrees]

What's a stablord?

Stainboy started making up classes, one of which was "stablord." It's just so simple and pure it appeals to the Timmy being repressed deep inside me. What does a stablord do? He stabs things, so well or so often that he's been declared (likely by himself) to be a lord of stabbing things.

This appeals to the exact same centers as those that go "heh, 'PCs are roving groups of murderous hobos.' WE SHOULD MAKE A PARTY THAT'S A LITERAL GROUP OF ROVING, MURDEROUS HOBOS!" In other words, not those centers that actually get used in play very often :smallsmile:

[The Glyphstone]

Roving Murderous Hobo is a prestige class.

[Greenish]

Let me re-phrase. The PF rogue has a much better base than 3.5's.Yeah, well, that's the main difference between 3.5 and PF: PF has better base classes, 3.5 has more options.


Alright, I suppose I should have said you can build a better sneak attacker limited by some cheese ceiling I didn't bother to define.That is meaningless. You can define the cheese ceiling however you wish, and off course the best sneak attacker is the best one allowed. What system you use to reach that doesn't really matter (if you set it low enough for PF).


To me any build that dips more than one 20-level rogue variant is above the cheese ceilingThe build given didn't dip into any rogue variants.

[Cieyrin]

Expect new guide to be up sometime in the next week, sooner if my gaming muse breaks out the Mountain Dew and Cheetos. :smallwink:

As promised, I finally got my new Gunslinger Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11719683#post11719683) started and should hopefully be done over this weekend or so. Feel free to come and post! :3

[stainboy]

Yeah, well, that's the main difference between 3.5 and PF: PF has better base classes, 3.5 has more options.

That is meaningless. You can define the cheese ceiling however you wish, and off course the best sneak attacker is the best one allowed. What system you use to reach that doesn't really matter (if you set it low enough for PF).

The build given didn't dip into any rogue variants.

Multiple base classes built on the rogue chassis. Pedantic much?

By the way if you want to be pedantic about RAW, fractional BAB is a house rule. Without fractional BAB the rogue1/spellthief1/psyrogue1/ and so on hits level 20 with a BAB of about +2. That build is based on the assumption that the DM makes a house rule in your favor after you show up with a build that flagrantly abuses it. It only works in hypothetical discussions on the internet.

[Cieyrin]

Multiple base classes built on the rogue chassis. Pedantic much?

By the way if you want to be pedantic about RAW, fractional BAB is a house rule. Without fractional BAB the rogue1/spellthief1/psyrogue1/ and so on hits level 20 with a BAB of about +2. That build is based on the assumption that the DM makes a house rule in your favor after you show up with a build that flagrantly abuses it. It only works in hypothetical discussions on the internet.

Fractional Progressions is a variant rule, not a house rule, also one that's used often. Given builds these days seem rarely to be straight-classed, it's to most player's benefit to have it in.

[Devmaar]

And if you play that build without fractionals you get a base reflex save of about +30.