Feral Template

[kaiserthe3rd]

Once again I come seeking help from the playground. This time it's on the Feral Template in Savage Species, PG 116. One of my players wants to use the Feral template on his new character. Both of us realize for a +1 template its amazingly overpowered. So I have two questions.

1) What would the actual LA of the Feral Template be. Looks like a +3 to me personally.

2) What could I do to it to make it a +1 LA Template? The one thing I want to keep in the template however is the fast healing. It doesn't have to be as high as 4/round at 12th level though.

Thanks in advance fellow playgrounders.

[Murmaider]

1) What would the actual LA of the Feral Template be. Looks like a +3 to me personally.

+2 seems appropriate. Compare it to the saint template and you wont find it it that strong anymore:smallbiggrin:

Special Attacks are only for monsters(or characters with monster HD), so no free pounce and rend.


2) What could I do to it to make it a +1 LA Template? The one thing I want to keep in the template however is the fast healing. It doesn't have to be as high as 4/round at 12th level though.

Reduce natural armor to 1-2, claw damage to 1-4 and let fast healing kick in at 4, starting with 2 points healed per round.

[Greenish]

Looks like a +3 to me personally.There may be templates worth +3 LA, but you probably won't find any outside ELH.

[HunterOfJello]

The Feral Template, one of my favorites.


Here's what I would suggest for changes to the template. It was obviously printed in a 3e book and Savage Species was a very strange book even for its edition.

Changes:
1. Change all of the instances in the text that say HD or Hit Dice to "Racial HD" and "Racial Hit Dice".
2. Reduce the AC bonus from +6 to +3. If the player calls it too strong a nerf show them the NA of the Draconic template. Giving a +3 is very generous.
3. Leave the claws alone. If the player wants Pounce, then dip into Barbarian.
4. Leave the 60 ft Darkvision and Fast Healing 2, but do not scale them. Fast Healing 2 really isn't a big deal since most groups grab Wands of Lesser Vigor as fast as they can and use it constantly out of combat. Healing 2 hp per round in combat really isn't a big deal and won't make a difference except in very rare situations.
5. As far as the stats go DEFINITELY remove the +2 to wisdom. None of the normal +0 LA races give a bonus to wisdom and the common one that does (Aasimar) has that as it's single big feature. I would also encourage a -2 penalty to charisma. The first line of the Feral Creature desction says, "Feral creatures were once civilized but have now sunk into a primitive, barbarous state." It then goes on to describe how they don't fit into society. A larger penalty would be cruel, but possibly appropriate.

~~~
So, in the end I would suggest:

Size and Type: Change to Monstrous Humanoid if they are not already. (You might want to reconsider this.)
Speed: [same as entry]
AC: +3 natural armor bonus
Attacks: [same as entry]
Damage: [same as entry]
Special Attacks: "Hit Dice" changed to "Racial Hit Dice".
Special Qualities: "Hit Dice" changed to "Racial Hit Dice". Allow Darkvision 60ft and Fast Healing 2 to a PC without any Racial HD.
Abilities: +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, –4 Int (minimum 2), -2 Cha
Level Adjustment: +1


~~~~~

I think this is still a very generous +1 LA template that is more powerful that most of them. I don't think there is an ideal level of power for templates because the damn things are all over the place and I've read and commented on a number of threads dealing with the issue.

The Feral Template is ideally suited for barbarian/fighter type characters, but is often grabbed by other types in order to abuse it's benefits. Clerics, druid, and other spellcasters who take the tempate are just getting into cheese. I don't think the adjustments I made will completely preclude the possibility it would be used that way, but it decreases the abuse of turning a spellcaster into a stronger melee character than a Full BAB class with a single +1 LA template and from giving them an unnecessary +2 to wisdom.

[Luca]

You are aware in that proposed fix that, amongst other nerfs, those stat modifiers come out at -2 yes?

And how do you propose this will power up non wisdom based casters? Last I checked it wasn't doing a whole lot for them.

[HunterOfJello]

You are aware in that proposed fix that, amongst other nerfs, those stat modifiers come out at -2 yes?

Yes I'm aware that it comes out to a -2. Not all races have zero or positive numbers of the sum for their modifiers and not all the templates do either. The original version had a +2


And how do you propose this will power up non wisdom based casters? Last I checked it wasn't doing a whole lot for them.

I don't propose that the above version of the feral template would significantly power up a non-wisdom based caster in any way, shape, or form. The entire point of change was to eliminate a Feral Druid, Cleric, or Sorcerer from running around with all of the benefits of the class and the only real penalty of -4 Int. I shouldn't need to explain to you how overpowered this template is in its original form. The purpose of the changes was to continue having the template as viable and highly useful to melee characters while not being overly enticing to spellcasters who really don't need it in the first place. This isn't an issue of "spellcasters shouldn't get nice things", it's merely an issue of spellcasters previously grabbing an already overpowered +1 template for the +2 to wisdom and long list of other bonuses for such a low cost (especially when LA buyoff is available). If anyone wants to grab the modified template to be a crazy feral beast, then it still works. If they want to grab it to be a slightly stupider spellcaster with shaggy hair, then it's like that it isn't as enticing as it was before.

[Curmudgeon]

One of my players wants to use the Feral template on his new character. Both of us realize for a +1 template its amazingly overpowered.
You might be overestimating the power of the template. The Special Qualities are based on total HD of the creature, but the Special Attacks are only granted for monster HD. With most characters gaining HD from class levels rather than monster hit dice you'll rarely see those Special Attacks, except for Improved Grab for 1 HD of Monstrous Humanoid.

With the switch to type Monstrous Humanoid you'll miss out on some stuff, like Enlarge Person. The type change will also usually cost you 1 monster HD before your first class level.
Humanoids and Class Levels

Creatures with 1 or less HD replace their monster levels with their character levels. The monster loses the attack bonus, saving throw bonuses, skills, and feats granted by its 1 monster HD and gains the attack bonus, save bonuses, skills, feats, and other class abilities of a 1st-level character of the appropriate class. There are a few non-Humanoid races that have similar rules.
A pixie character exchanges its 1 HD of fey for its first class level. So if you start with a Half-Orc and add Feral, with the change in type you're stuck with 1 HD of Monstrous Humanoid before you can add any class levels.

Given that it's +1 LA with a change that requires 1 racial HD, and you don't get most of those Special Attacks, I think it's got the right cost. If you use a house rule that allows any creature (not just Humanoids) with 1 racial HD to drop that for their first class level, it's probably a bit overpowered.

[Ernir]

The type change will also usually cost you 1 monster HD before your first class level. There are a few non-Humanoid races that have similar rules. So if you start with a Half-Orc and add Feral, with the change in type you're stuck with 1 HD of Monstrous Humanoid before you can add any class levels.

Given that it's +1 LA with a change that requires 1 racial HD, and you don't get most of those Special Attacks, I think it's got the right cost. If you use a house rule that allows any creature (not just Humanoids) with 1 racial HD to drop that for their first class level, it's probably a bit overpowered.

It would be a houserule in a game that does not include Savage Species, but the sidebar on page 13 of the book expands the rule to other 1-HD creatures.

[Curmudgeon]

It would be a houserule in a game that does not include Savage Species, but the sidebar on page 13 of the book expands the rule to other 1-HD creatures.
It's still a house rule in a D&D 3.5 game. Savage Species is pre-3.5 material, and that sidebar is overridden by the 3.5 Monster Manual, per WotC's Primary Sources Errata rule.

[Ernir]

It's still a house rule in a D&D 3.5 game. Savage Species is pre-3.5 material, and that sidebar is overridden by the 3.5 Monster Manual, per WotC's Primary Sources Errata rule.

Is it overridden? The 3.5 Monster Manual clause on replacing a creature's first HD is humanoid-specific, while there is no mention of a similar phenomenon for other creature types. This would make it impossible for single-HD nonhumanoids to replace their first HD with a class level in a core 3.5 game.

But if Savage Species is included, the sidebar exists. The 3.5 Monster Manual makes no mention of the issue it addresses, while it re-iterates it for humanoids. Is the mere absence of a 3.5 rule sufficient to override the Savage Species rule?

[Coidzor]

5. As far as the stats go DEFINITELY remove the +2 to wisdom. None of the normal +0 LA races give a bonus to wisdom and the common one that does (Aasimar) has that as it's single big feature.

"I want to keep the Aasimar special," is not a very good justification for any kind of balance decision.

[aje8]

My stance is on this template has always been that's it's totally fair.

Why is it fair? Well, I play in fairly optimization heavy group. As a result, non-ToB Melee can pretty much never keep up, and ToB Melee have some problems.

This is a template that is ONLY good for melee, thus I allow it with all special abilities. (aka Pounce) The reason is simple, you can feel free to play a Half-Minotaur Feral Mineral Warrior Water Orc with infinite splats. My core only Wizard 20 will still be leagues more powerful, since Feral doesn't fix any of melee's real problems, although pounce helps a lot.

Now if you play in a lower optimization group, this template is a more of a problem, but for the most part, I just don't think that this fixing it is worth it, given that the only thing it "breaks" is something that is otherwise underpowered.

Tl:dr Any campaign that has Wizards who cast Glitterdust and Stinking Cloud instead of Scorching Ray and Fireball should not be worrying about the Feral Template.

[Coidzor]

You might be overestimating the power of the template.

No one sane plays it that way, Curmudgeon, so there's really no need to bring that up except as a specific thing to nerf it, in which case it'd then be "worth" LA+1 because it'd be saddled with a worthless RHD.

[Curmudgeon]

No one sane plays it that way, Curmudgeon, so there's really no need to bring that up except as a specific thing to nerf it, in which case it'd then be "worth" LA+1 because it'd be saddled with a worthless RHD.
So you're flat out stating that I'm insane?

I find that quite insulting. :smallannoyed:

[Coidzor]

So you're flat out stating that I'm insane?

I find that quite insulting. :smallannoyed:

Fine, then Mr. Literal. It's an unreasonable interpretation of the rules & insisting upon it in this context is inappropriate and overbearing.

[Curmudgeon]

Fine, then Mr. Literal. It's an unreasonable interpretation of the rules & insisting upon it in this context is inappropriate and overbearing.
What's unreasonable about this interpretation? It's exactly what's stated on Monster Manual page 295
Humanoids with 1 Hit Die exchange the features of their humanoid Hit Die for the class features of a PC or NPC class. Humanoids of this sort are presented as 1st-level warriors, which means that they have average combat ability and poor saving throws. and repeated identically on page 310. (In case you're interested, this special rule for Humanoids is reprinted in the later Monster Manuals, right through Monster Manual V.)

Getting to swap 1 racial HD for 1 class level is a special allowance for Humanoids and some select other races, such as Pixies and Warforged; this rule doesn't apply generally (not to other creature types, nor to Humanoids with 2 or more racial hit dice).

[tyckspoon]

Getting to swap 1 racial HD for 1 class level is a special allowance for Humanoids and some select other races, such as Pixies and Warforged; this rule doesn't apply generally (not to other creature types, nor to Humanoids with 2 or more racial hit dice).

The page 290 reference is headed 'Humanoids', but the text actually says Creatures.. and I don't believe the section headers are normally considered to be rules text in themselves- they just tell you what the rule you're about to read is about, which means the rule is a general one. That is distinctly not identical to the Humanoid type entry, which rather sensibly only bothers to tell you about Humanoids.

If you feel like going through some examples, check your Psionics Handbooks, the monster listings for Half-Giants, Dromites, and Elans. If your version of this rule is to be applied, they should have 1 HD of Giant, Monstrous Humanoid, and Aberration, respectively. What they *are* is all 1st-level Warriors, just like all the 1 HD humanoids. Or, even in the Monster Manual itself, Aasimars and Tieflings should be 1 HD Outsiders, right? Nope. Warriors. None of them have the reminder note about swapping that HD, because it's not a necessary part of the rules- it's just on the Pixie because the Pixie is not a standard PC race, so you get that note for how it works.

[DeAnno]

I would suggest to use it as RAW (+1 LA) with none of this Monstrous Humanoid HD sillyness either. Really, its mostly just stats (not even good stats really), 10 feet of speed and AC, and some healing that won't really matter except out of combat.

By comparison, Barbarian 1 gives you +1 BaB, which is similar in value to +2 STR. You get Rage 1/day, which is a collection of bonuses and penalties vaguely similar (rather better really) to the rest of the stats, albeit only for one encounter. You get Fast Movement (or Pounce if you'd rather), just like the 10 foot speed boost. Feral gets a bunch of AC and Fast Healing, but gets no HP or skill points that level either. It'll delay you qualifying for lots of PrCs as well. And the claw attacks are only good at all if you use other resources to optimize on top of them.

People shouldn't be comparing an "overpowered" template to other random weak useless things that cost +1 LA, they should compare it to a Class Level. The only vaguely strong thing about the template is the heap of AC, and you could get similar with Alter Self, a 2nd level spell out of a fairly cheap wand. AC is one of the most cheesable things in the game, and large bonuses of it, especially when it isn't Touch AC, aren't that big a deal.

[Curmudgeon]

The page 290 reference is headed 'Humanoids', but the text actually says Creatures.. and I don't believe the section headers are normally considered to be rules text in themselves-
I'm not sure why you'd think a header in a rule book ─ something that sets the context ─ isn't part of the rules. (Wouldn't you think the PH "Actions in Combat" section of the "Combat" chapter says something about when those rules about actions apply?) Any ambiguity about the applicability is easily resolved by looking at the all the 15 creature type entries, where the "Humanoid" entry explains that exchange rule, and none of the other creature types do.

Anyway, we've got a clear rule, specific to the Humanoid type, about exchanging 1 racial HD for the first class level. Unless you can point to a 3.5 rule which states this for any other creature type, the RAW says it's just for Humanoids.

[DeAnno]

There are no stat ups of Aasimar and Tieflings in the monster manual with Outsider HD. They are clearly outsiders, so would you think that by RAW they should have all have 1 Outsider HD, in spite of all the examples?

This is the sort of reasoning that makes Monks not proficient with their unarmed strike.

[tyckspoon]

Anyway, we've got a clear rule, specific to the Humanoid type, about exchanging 1 racial HD for the first class level. Unless you can point to a 3.5 rule which states this for any other creature type, the RAW says it's just for Humanoids.

I *did*. It's page 290. Which says "Creatures with 1 HD may..." It happens to be titled "Humanoids".. however, those headers have no rules meaning in and of themselves- you can't just read the section header "Actions in Combat" and say "ah, ok, I know how combat works in this game now." You must read the actual rule that follows it to find how it works, and that rule does not restrict itself to Humanoids. This is regardless of what the individual creature types and monster entries do or more commonly do not say about it- the entry on 290 makes a general statement.

[druid91]

I'm not sure why you'd think a header in a rule book ─ something that sets the context ─ isn't part of the rules. (Wouldn't you think the PH "Actions in Combat" section of the "Combat" chapter says something about when those rules about actions apply?) Any ambiguity about the applicability is easily resolved by looking at the all the 15 creature type entries, where the "Humanoid" entry explains that exchange rule, and none of the other creature types do.

Anyway, we've got a clear rule, specific to the Humanoid type, about exchanging 1 racial HD for the first class level. Unless you can point to a 3.5 rule which states this for any other creature type, the RAW says it's just for Humanoids.

Why is it Curmudgeon that you seem to stick to the rules in the most irritating places? In fact to the point that you break the rules to stick to them better.

[Curmudgeon]

I *did*. It's page 290. Which says "Creatures with 1 HD may..." It happens to be titled "Humanoids"
OK, two questions then:

What is that header supposed to mean, if not to establish a context for the rule?
Since the page 290 citation is obviously a subject of contention, can you point to any non-contentious 3.5 rule which would allow the exchange for non-Humanoids?

[tyckspoon]

OK, two questions then:

What is that header supposed to mean, if not to establish a context for the rule?


In terms of interpreting the rule that follows it and actually defines how the game operates? Nothing. Nothing at all. If I could propose an analogy: Imagine a feat. This feat has a name. That name is Hit Things In The Head. That name is used to keep track of what that feat is and where it is in books if you have to reference it. However, what that feat *does* is defined by its Benefits: section. Hit Things In The Head has a Benefits: that reads: You may cast Magic Missile 1/day as a spell-like action.

This is utterly unrelated to what the feat is called. It is in fact a completely nonsensical name for a feat with that effect. But nonetheless the feat has that name with that effect. That is because the names of rules, in D&D, are almost entirely unrelated to what the rule *does*- the only reliable exception I know of is the stacking rules.

[DeAnno]

Headers group rules which usually are most important to what's mentioned in the header, but those rules are absolute in and of themselves. The rule says "Creatures" because it refers to all Creatures. It's in the humanoids section because the majority of creatures with 1 HD are humanoids, and the rule comes up most often when dealing with humanoids.

[Curmudgeon]

In terms of interpreting the rule that follows it and actually defines how the game operates? Nothing. Nothing at all. If I could propose an analogy ...

Headers group rules which usually are most important to what's mentioned in the header, but those rules are absolute in and of themselves. The rule says "Creatures" because it refers to all Creatures.
Let's try something else, taken from actual game rules, instead of some nonsensical analogy.
The subject becomes stronger. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, adding the usual benefits to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and other uses of the Strength modifier.
If the header doesn't matter, and any rule is absolute in itself, then this rule which says "the spell" applies to all spells ─ instead of just the Bull's Strength spell name in the header.

Nope. Not buying what you guys are shoveling. You're trying to greatly expand the scope of a rule which clearly defines its benefit for Humanoids in two different places in the Monster Manual, simply because in the third place the Humanoid context is stated in the header but not repeated in the sentence of text immediately following.

[Togath]

No, it's pretty clearly stated in the rules that creatures with 1HD lose that HD, show me one creature in a rulebook that has an int over three and with 1HD, that doesn't have class levels

[tyckspoon]

Let's try something else, taken from actual game rules, instead of some nonsensical analogy.
If the header doesn't matter, and any rule is absolute in itself, then this rule which says "the spell" applies to all spells ─ instead of just the Bull's Strength spell name in the header.

You have either misunderstood or chosen to ignore the point of my analogy. The name of a rule serves only to tell you what rule you're talking about. With your example, the fact that Bull's Strength is an individual spell is important- it ensures that the effect of Bull's Strength does not contaminate to every other spell, as you pointed out- but the spell being named Bull's Strength is unrelated to that effect. You could call it Cat's Grace II if you wanted to be very confusing, or Spell 1, or an arbitrary collection of letters; they would all refer to the exact same block of actual game-effecting rules, and none of those different namings of it would have any relevance to what those rules actually did.

Geh. Ok, in short and plain as I can lay out this argument:
1: The name of a particular section of rules only serves to separate and identify which pieces of text you are to read. The text following that name is the rule- if the name of a rule and the actual rule should happen to be contradictory, the real full text of the rule is how it works.
2: On page 290, there is a general rule that all creatures with only 1 HD may substitute it for a class level. This rule is labeled 'Humanoids and Class levels.' See 1 for why this doesn't change the rule.
3: There are several other restatements of this rule as it impacts Humanoids and certain other creatures. None of these restatements are exclusionary- they do not say "only Humanoids..", "only a Pixie", or any similar thing. Therefore,
4: The rule that Humanoids with only 1 HD exchange it for a class level is not contradictory or in any other way impeding the rule that all creatures with only 1 HD exchange it for a class level.
Supporting evidence, Appendice A:
Throughout the monster listings there are entries that disagree with your reading. In just 2 books I have named 5- the Dromite, Half-Giant, Elan, Aasimar, and Tiefling are all statted as classed beings, and not 1 HD examples of their Types. The Aasimar and Tiefling are notable for not being suggested as normal player races in a standard player splat, which would carry the assumption of having classes instead of racial HD the way the XPH races are presented. They are still formed as classed beings, and their information does not have a 'replace the outsider HD with a class level' blurb.

Conclusion: Both RAW and RAI are against you.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

I have always interpreted it the way Crumedgeon does. However because of the SS rule, I'd allow its effects assuming I allow SS because nothing in 3.5 specifically contradicts the SS rule.

After all isn't SS teh brokenzor for giving a melee a half worth while tem