Pathfinder Monk?

[Dark Kerman]

Just wondering what the major differences are that anyone might know?

Thanks

D.K

[Starbuck_II]

Just wondering what the major differences are that anyone might know?

Thanks

D.K

You have full BAB when Flurrying
Flurrying is now TWFing (so you can't TWF and Flurry) equivalent (it says so in text)
Ki pool (covers useage of Ki abilities)
Stunning fist is automatic, no longer a choice. But gets better as you level.

[subject42]

You also have full BAB for maneuvers.

[UrsielHauke]

And 20 levels in monk can be, IMO, a pretty solid build. If it's done right.

[Blisstake]

Oh boy, quite a few things...

Core:
You BAB improves when using Flurry of Blows
You get more bonus feats
You have a ki pool that lets you use certain abilities. This includes increasing your AC, getting a bonus attack, and increasing your speed.
You can apply more effects with a stunning fist at higher levels
You can use your monk level in place of your BAB when doing combat maneuvers (like bull rush, disarm, etc.)
Amulet of Mighty Fists is a bit cheaper and can add magic properties to your fists (like flaming burst, speed, etc.)
There are a few things that you can do with just a move+attack (Wind Stance, Scorpion Style, etc.)

Advanced Player's Guide:
Feats similar in style to Stunning Fist. (Elemental Fists, Punishing Kick, etc.)
Many monk archetypes, including one for just about all the new stunning fist-type feats (one archetype increases the damage of Elemental Fists as you level up)
You can buy knuckles which can be enchanted like standard magic weapons. Fighting with knuckles uses your monk fist damage, but applies magic enhancements as normal. (This may have been erratad)

Ultimate Magic:
Monk archetype that allows you to use your ki points for quasi-magical effects.

Ultimate Combat:
Many monk archetypes. These include a maneuver specialist, a grapple specialist (can disable freedom of movement and use dimensional anchor with a grapple), and martial artist which doesn't use ki.
Style feats which require Improved Unarmed Strike, and provide bonuses as long as you remain in their style. Most of these bonuses seem monk-centered.
Many new monk weapons.

[gorfnab]

Taken from the 3.5/Pathfinder Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136890) by Saph


Monk

Buffs

Improved skill list due to skill amalgamation. They still only get 4 + Int skill points, but can now afford Acrobatics, Stealth, and Perception, and have points left over. Still no UMD, though. :P
More bonus feats, and more choice in their selection.
Flurry of blows now works like TWF, giving more attacks but at a lower bonus.
Stunning Fist can now apply other conditions instead of stun.
Most of the monk's per-day abilities and a handful of new ones now work off a point system called the ki pool, similar to the one the ninja class from Complete Adventurer gets. Gaining an extra attack on a full attack is 1 point, doing a Jedi-style force jump is 1 point, using the abundant step ability is 2 points, etc. A monk gets daily ki points equal to half his level + his Wis modifier.
Monks get to use their level instead of BAB on combat maneuvers, making them almost as good at combat maneuvers as a fighter or barbarian. :P

Nerfs

None I can see.

Verdict?

Not bad. No huge buffs, but a lot of little ones that do add up. The extra flexibility in bonus feats is nice, as is the ability to use different abilities more often with the ki pool. However, the basic problems of the class haven't changed; monks still have MAD, still don't hit very hard, and still need to stand still to use their extra attacks. At the end of the day the Pathfinder monk does pretty much the same thing as the 3.5 monk; he just does it better. If you hated the 3.5 monk, the Pathfinder one is unlikely to change your mind.

[Shadow Lord]

IIRC, there's a feat that allows you to use Dexterity for CMB, making them only MAD to Dex, Wis, and Str.

[The Glyphstone]

IIRC, there's a feat that allows you to use Dexterity for CMB, making them only MAD to Dex, Wis, and Str.

And a weapon property from an adventure path that lets you apply Wisdom instead of Strength to attack/damage, making them only Dex/Wis/(con?) dependent.

[Shadow Lord]

And a weapon property from an adventure path that lets you apply Wisdom instead of Strength to attack/damage, making them only Dex/Wis/(con?) dependent.

What? I forgot to include Con. I'm sorry :smallredface:

Anyway, Monk's with UC and UM are not the suck any more.

[The Glyphstone]

What? I forgot to include Con. I'm sorry :smallredface:

Anyway, Monk's with UC and UM are not the suck any more.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided

[Blisstake]

Of course, that magic item was made before the Pathfinder rules came out, so I can see a lot of GMs who would be reluctant to use it.

[Shadow Lord]

Of course, that magic item was made before the Pathfinder rules came out, so I can see a lot of GMs who would be reluctant to use it.

No. No they will not.

[The Glyphstone]

Of course, that magic item was made before the Pathfinder rules came out, so I can see a lot of GMs who would be reluctant to use it.

Pathfinder Adventures 10: It was?

[Shadow Lord]

Pathfinder Adventures 10: It was?

Yes, but it was released before the release of Pathfinder; it was in the Pathfinder Chronicles setting. It used OGL.

[The Glyphstone]

Yes, but it was released before the release of Pathfinder; it was in the Pathfinder Chronicles setting. It used OGL.

Well, I like it.

[Shadow Lord]

Well, I like it.

So do I, but it isn't PFRPG by default.

[The Glyphstone]

So do I, but it isn't PFRPG by default.

No, but it's in the PFSRD, which at least gives it a veneer of legitimacy. I know multiple DMs who refuse anything 3.5, but allow anything associated with PF (including homebrew that's added to the PFSRD).

[Shadow Lord]

No, but it's in the PFSRD, which at least gives it a veneer of legitimacy. I know multiple DMs who refuse anything 3.5, but allow anything associated with PF (including homebrew that's added to the PFSRD).

I see. Well then, I rest my point.

[MeeposFire]

Taken from the 3.5/Pathfinder Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136890) by Saph

No nerfs? Saph obviously did not look too deeply. Inability to use imp natural attack, auto TWF means that if you somehow had a high attack bonus you no longer can gain extra attacks, you have less attacks at full BAB, and less ways of increasing unarmed damage. That is just what I can remember off the top of my head.

[blackmage]

No nerfs? Saph obviously did not look too deeply. Inability to use imp natural attack, auto TWF means that if you somehow had a high attack bonus you no longer can gain extra attacks, you have less attacks at full BAB, and less ways of increasing unarmed damage. That is just what I can remember off the top of my head.

The TWF/full BAB comment I don't understand what you're referring to, unless you're saying the attack bonus when flurrying is lower (which is true). All the stuff for increasing unarmed damage isn't really the class itself, its all the accumulated 3.5 material that had the occasional monk gem being gone. I'd assume that, if that material was allowed into a game, a Pathfinder Monk using them would be just as good as a 3.5 Monk.

[Karoht]

We have a fellow playing a Monk in Pathfinder with us, he previously played one in 3.5
Says he's having way more fun this go around.

[Curious]

One of the best Monk builds you can get is-

(Hungry Ghost, Qinggong) Monk. Take the first three 'Dimensional' feats from Ultimate Combat. Wield duel Kukris with the 'Guided' property, and replace either 'Quivering Palm' or 'Tongue of the Sun and Moon' with the Cold Ice Strike ki ability. You can now move and full attack, gain extra attacks from the ki pool, do not require Str for damage or to hit, and use a 15d6 line of cold attack as a swift action, as well as regaining ki points whenever you kill or crit an opponent. Not on a Unarmed Swordsages level perhaps, but pretty solid.

[marcielle]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided

All I can say is DANKERSHER. SO. VERY. MUCH.

[Ravens_cry]

We have a fellow playing a Monk in Pathfinder with us, he previously played one in 3.5
Says he's having way more fun this go around.

Well, that sinks it for me. You can crunch numbers until the heat death of the universe, but if it's not fun, there is no point.

[Prime32]

There's a feat in UC which lets you use a natural weapon for a Flurry of Blows. Tiny and smaller creatures get the effects of the Agile Maneuvers feat for free. Play a pseudodragon monk and inflict knockout poison on all your attacks.

[BlueInc]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided

I've got a feeling that the next time a player wants to play a monk in a campaign of mine, I'll let them get some kind of charm (ring, bracelet, necklace, etc.) that gives them this property for free come 3-5th level.

[Karoht]

Well, that sinks it for me. You can crunch numbers until the heat death of the universe, but if it's not fun, there is no point.
I should probably fill in more details of the "fun" for you then.
It's not so much that he does punch and kick things, and they take reasonable amounts of damage, it's that the numbers all just seem to flow better to make this happen.
It's not to much that pathfinder "fixed" grappling, it's just a more balanced system, it's clearer, and CMB VS CMD just works well. We've only had to look up grapple once, and then never again.

We literally just picked up the new Pathfinder book last night (Ultimate Combat? I'm bad with book names). And while the variants are all very very good, he's still just peachy with his normal monk.

And the fact that the party Witch acquired a wand of Enlarge Person and typically uses it on the monk, makes for a monk who hits harder and grapples easier, and between the two can do some incredible damage at level 6 or lower.

I'm not saying that they "fixed monks" in terms of power, but this already comes across as less complicated and definately more fun.

[Psyren]

Well, that sinks it for me. You can crunch numbers until the heat death of the universe, but if it's not fun, there is no point.

It's not surprising for me; just about every class is more fun to play in Pathfinder, even if the tiers didn't change a whole lot.

[Karoht]

Example: Cleave
3.5-Not that great.
Pathfinder-Might not be 'powerful' per se, but definately more useful and more fun to constantly hit multiple targets.
Though after reading Great Cleave I have absolutely no idea what Whirlwind attack is supposed to be for anymore.

Apply similar logic to Monks. No major change in power, but more useful and use tends to equal fun, non-use tends to equal non-fun.

[Psyren]

Though after reading Great Cleave I have absolutely no idea what Whirlwind attack is supposed to be for anymore.

1) GCleave is for Str-based fighters, WWA is for Dex-based
2) GCleave lowers your AC, WWA doesn't
3) GCleave is a standard action (meaning you can move and cleave); WWA is a full attack.

They function similarly but those are the key differences.

[BlueInc]

It's not surprising for me; just about every class is more fun to play in Pathfinder, even if the tiers didn't change a whole lot.

This. Sure, your rogue can't do everything a wizard can, but you get either a rogue talent or a feat at every level that you can improve (or give new uses to) your skills, sneak attack, damage output, maneuverability, roleplaying, etc.

Your sorcerer is a sneeze away from death at first level, but it's a bigger sneeze. Throw your favored class bonus in there and you're doing even better; plus, you've got a 3+CHA/day useful ability and infinite level 0 spells for when you run out of level 1 spells.

[Talentless]

So, I've been looking through PF's Monk and its archetypes recently, and I had a thought.

Would allowing a Qinggong Monk to have all the abilities they could normally have traded a normal Monk feature for all at once, as well as the Normal Monk feature affect the Tier of the Monk in question?

I'm considering bringing it up with my DM for his new campaign he's starting, but I'd like some help judging on how broken it might be, if at all.

I mean, the main thing that jumps out at me as to why it wouldn't break anything is that all those abilities give options, but the Monk would still have a limited Ki pool to access those options.

Thoughts?

[Gnaeus]

So, I've been looking through PF's Monk and its archetypes recently, and I had a thought.

Would allowing a Qinggong Monk to have all the abilities they could normally have traded a normal Monk feature for all at once, as well as the Normal Monk feature affect the Tier of the Monk in question?

I'm considering bringing it up with my DM for his new campaign he's starting, but I'd like some help judging on how broken it might be, if at all.

I mean, the main thing that jumps out at me as to why it wouldn't break anything is that all those abilities give options, but the Monk would still have a limited Ki pool to access those options.

Thoughts?

It would become Tier 3. It would have some flexibility. It still wouldn't be awesome in combat, and would still lack the power and flexibility of a full caster. It might be broken if compared with the weakest PF classes.

[Talentless]

It would become Tier 3. It would have some flexibility. It still wouldn't be awesome in combat, and would still lack the power and flexibility of a full caster. It might be broken if compared with the weakest PF classes.

So essentially If i could talk my DM into it, I can play a monk in his group without overshadowing anyone or being worthless... Sweet :smallcool:

That said... another question I've been wondering about, and it probably has been answered before but i can't find it.

Does the extra action from Belt of Battle allow for a move and flurry of blows in one round?

[NamelessNPC]

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided

My psywar thanks you with the intensity of a thousand suns