[PF] Retooling Samurai

[Archpaladin Zousha]

With the emergence of Ultimate Combat the Samurai class has been introduced to the world with much pomp and ceremony. And of course the immediate question associated with it follows: "How can I play one that's not Japanese?" (I know, technically unless you're playing in a modified version of our world the Japanese people technically don't exist in D&D, but the samurai is so intertwined with our perceptions of Japanese history and culture that it doesn't really matter, your Far East stand-ins are clearly the Japanese).

Ultimate Combat offers some suggestions that Samurai and its progenitor class, Cavalier can be interchangeable to some degree. Cavaliers can take the Samurai orders and vice versa. However, there is one niggling little thing that, to me, firmly cements Samurai in the "exotic/foreign" category. The use of katanas and other such weapons.

In addition to being proficient in all simple and martial weapons, Samurai get free proficiency with the katana, wakizashi and naginata (despite the naginata already being covered by the Samurai's proficiency with all martial weapons).

In addition, they get the Weapon Expertise feature at 3rd level, which gives them special benefits with any one of those 3 weapons as well as with the longbow.

So my question is this: If I want to use the Samurai class and not actually be a character straight out of a Japanese history book, how do I rectify this? The simple answer would be to ignore the weapon proficiencies and just take Longbow when Weapon Expertise rolls around, but that seems more like a cop-out, deliberately ignoring advantages, especially since I don't think you can use a longbow while mounted. What do other, wiser DMs out there think?

[Cieyrin]

I haven't read Cavalier or Samurai that closely since the preview, as I got Ultimate Combat yesterday, but my initial thoughts are fluffing the character as a Marshal, leading his troops in battle and war by example and taking from various warleaders from other cultures and races, changing the provided weapons to match up with that culture. For example, if I wanted to run a Dwarven Marshall, have him focus on the Dwarven Waraxe and other similarly dwarven weapons or if I want a Scottish Marshall, change it to a greatsword (claymore) and other similarly scottish weapons. Change the ability names like Resolve to Dwarven Stolidness or something similar and that goes a good ways to changing it up without to resort to heavier changes.

[Cerlis]

A) Switch out the proficiencies for Simular items. Not sure if i got the ratio right but if....

Wakizashi is light, Katana is martial/exotic and naginata is martial

then you might pick

Lightflail, direflail, heavyflail.
or
Kukri, Doublesword, Fullblade

Not sure the stats and clasifications of each weapon, but the point is there is kinda a pattern.

B) other choice is that since its a fact that there is a trope of "make someone badass? give him a katana". you can imerse yourself in the various heros who use Katanas that arent japanese or samurai. I think BLade uses one. The Katana isnt just popular cus its Samurai/japan focused. its popular cus -It looks cooler than a sword- its ornate, uncluding its handle-its suppose to be sharper than any other weapon, hence in shows it being able to cut "anything"

Note how Star wars was inspired by some story about ancient japan. yet though there are many simularities between jedi and the modern perception of jedi (that would be feudal era, rather than ancient) that they are still very different.

[nyarlathotep]

I've been fine with letting my players swap the proficiencies around as long as the end result was one light exotic, one heavier exotic, one martial, and one ranged.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

A) Switch out the proficiencies for Simular items. Not sure if i got the ratio right but if....

Wakizashi is light, Katana is martial/exotic and naginata is martial

then you might pick

Lightflail, direflail, heavyflail.
or
Kukri, Doublesword, Fullblade

Not sure the stats and clasifications of each weapon, but the point is there is kinda a pattern.

B) other choice is that since its a fact that there is a trope of "make someone badass? give him a katana". you can imerse yourself in the various heros who use Katanas that arent japanese or samurai. I think BLade uses one. The Katana isnt just popular cus its Samurai/japan focused. its popular cus -It looks cooler than a sword- its ornate, uncluding its handle-its suppose to be sharper than any other weapon, hence in shows it being able to cut "anything"

Note how Star wars was inspired by some story about ancient japan. yet though there are many simularities between jedi and the modern perception of jedi (that would be feudal era, rather than ancient) that they are still very different.
Yeah, but I specifically want to model this guy as a European Knight-In-Shining-Armor type. King Arthur didn't use a katana.

[Togath]

Changing Katana to bastardsword, or longsword, or greatsword(any sword which can be used in 2 hands), changing wakizashi to shortsword(such as a cutlass), and refluffing it as doing slashing damage rather than piercing damage, and changing the naginata to a glaive

[stack]

Composite longbows can be used mounted and use the same proficiencies and feats. You'll have a decent strength mod anyway, so they are the best ranged choice as long as you can afford +100 GP per point of str bonus (trivial after the earliest levels).

[Cieyrin]

Changing Katana to bastardsword, or longsword, or greatsword(any sword which can be used in 2 hands), changing wakizashi to shortsword(such as a cutlass), and refluffing it as doing slashing damage rather than piercing damage, and changing the naginata to a glaive


If we're all 3.P, Cutlass (Stormwrack) or Straightblade (Planar Handbook) fill the light slashing weapon position nicely.

[Starbuck_II]

In addition to being proficient in all simple and martial weapons, Samurai get free proficiency with the katana, wakizashi and naginata (despite the naginata already being covered by the Samurai's proficiency with all martial weapons).


Why even use a Katana/Wakizashi? They aren't better than a Bastardsword, unlike 3.5 they aren't masterwork automatically.

I'd just allow them to choose any weapon with Weapon Expertise.

[Kyuu Himura]

Why even use a Katana/Wakizashi? They aren't better than a Bastardsword, unlike 3.5 they aren't masterwork automatically.

I'd just allow them to choose any weapon with Weapon Expertise.

Pathfinder katana and wakizashi have 18-20 crit range and a special quality that makes them better for coup de grace...
I would think they are a bit better than the standard short sword and bastard sword...

[Starbuck_II]

Pathfinder katana and wakizashi have 18-20 crit range and a special quality that makes them better for coup de grace...
I would think they are a bit better than the standard short sword and bastard sword...

Oh, just noticed they lowered it to a Scimitar. Katana's are just scimitars with 1 dice higher. They (Katana) used to do d10 now d8 in pathfinder.

[Bhaakon]

If you want to get more "real world" with it, consider swapping out the extra weapon proficiencies for bonus shield feats. Sword and board was a popular style among western knights, but rare among samurai (I don't think I've ever seen a depiction or read a description of a samurai carrying a shield, though I wouldn't call myself an expert on the subject). Obviously this hurts from an optimization standpoint, since the game punishes sword and boarders.

[Metahuman1]

Swap Naginata out for Lance, Swap Katana and Wakizashi out for two other exotic weapons too flavor. (If your 3.p, maybe Elvin Court Blade and Thin/Light blade? If not maybe Make it Bastard Sword and something else that fits the characters local cultural flavor?)

Then just Reassign all the weapons ability's too the new weapons.

[Safety Sword]

Samurai swords are (quite literally) a long sword and a short sword.

I think you guys are over complicating it. :smallwink:

Edit: Clarifying what the hell I was on about in the first place...

[Bhaakon]

Samurai swords are (quite literally) a long sword and a short sword.

I think you guys are over complicating it. :smallwink:

Edit: Clarifying what the hell I was on about in the first place...

Except that they're not, because the rules say that they're better.

[Lord_Gareth]

Except that they're not, because the rules say that they're better.

While this statement is true, it behooves me to point out that katanas were basically giant razors and had serious problems with shattering. Japanese iron is so poor most European smiths wouldn't spend the time it'd take to spit on the stuff, so they didn't really do a whole lot of metal armor, making wielding four foot razor blades a viable tactic, especially when you folded the steel.

Against actual metal armor, though? Now we have a problem. Why else do you think Western smiths were cranking out what was basically an edged metal club

[Bhaakon]

While this statement is true, it behooves me to point out that katanas were basically giant razors and had serious problems with shattering. Japanese iron is so poor most European smiths wouldn't spend the time it'd take to spit on the stuff, so they didn't really do a whole lot of metal armor, making wielding four foot razor blades a viable tactic, especially when you folded the steel.

Against actual metal armor, though? Now we have a problem. Why else do you think Western smiths were cranking out what was basically an edged metal club

And why any samurai wealthy and influential enough to get their hands on western armor would generally wear it in battle.

The idiosyncrasies of Japanese military history aside, we're talking about pathfinder here, and katanas beat longswords in pathfinder.

[Ravens_cry]

While this statement is true, it behooves me to point out that katanas were basically giant razors and had serious problems with shattering. Japanese iron is so poor most European smiths wouldn't spend the time it'd take to spit on the stuff, so they didn't really do a whole lot of metal armor, making wielding four foot razor blades a viable tactic, especially when you folded the steel.

Against actual metal armor, though? Now we have a problem. Why else do you think Western smiths were cranking out what was basically an edged metal club

*facepalm* A western sword was not (http://www.thehaca.com/essays/2HGS.html) an "edged metal club". There was a variety of tactics for dealing with metal plate armour, blunt weapons like flanged maces been quite effective. But even the heaviest and biggest practical swords (not ceremonial pieces) only weighed in at little over 2 kilograms. And we are talking big greatswords here, some more then 4 and a half feet long from hilt to tip. They were also balanced and agile.
You don't go a millennium or more making deadly weapons without getting really good at it.
On topic, some minor tweaks like this to fit regional variations more thematically sound fine.

[supermonkeyjoe]

If you want to further divorce them from Japanese culture, make them predominantly non-human. Hobgoblins, bam, they have a strong martial culture and tend towards the samurai class, the katana is now the hobgoblin longsword and the wakizashi is the hobgoblin shortsword.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

If you want to further divorce them from Japanese culture, make them predominantly non-human. Hobgoblins, bam, they have a strong martial culture and tend towards the samurai class, the katana is now the hobgoblin longsword and the wakizashi is the hobgoblin shortsword.

This isn't about the class in general, but in an instance for a particular character. I like the samurai features, honestly better than the vanilla cavalier, but fluffwise an actual Tian-Min samurai wouldn't make a whole lot of sense either in Brevoy or the River Kingdoms (Kingmaker Adventure Path).

[Cieyrin]

If you want to get more "real world" with it, consider swapping out the extra weapon proficiencies for bonus shield feats. Sword and board was a popular style among western knights, but rare among samurai (I don't think I've ever seen a depiction or read a description of a samurai carrying a shield, though I wouldn't call myself an expert on the subject). Obviously this hurts from an optimization standpoint, since the game punishes sword and boarders.

Actually, PF Sword & Board isn't quite so off from other fighting styles, Shield Master being the great equalizer in bringing it up to at least TWF level. Perhaps a little better, due to the fact that shields are cheaper to enchant than weapons and that Shield Master applies the enchantment to attack. Magic Vestment your shield up and let it do double duty. :smallamused:

[Ravens_cry]

If you want to further divorce them from Japanese culture, make them predominantly non-human. Hobgoblins, bam, they have a strong martial culture and tend towards the samurai class, the katana is now the hobgoblin longsword and the wakizashi is the hobgoblin shortsword.

In first edition AD&D, they explicitly were Samurai in the text, with the illustrations showing them in Samurai style armour.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Actually, PF Sword & Board isn't quite so off from other fighting styles, Shield Master being the great equalizer in bringing it up to at least TWF level. Perhaps a little better, due to the fact that shields are cheaper to enchant than weapons and that Shield Master applies the enchantment to attack. Magic Vestment your shield up and let it do double duty. :smallamused:

Tell me more! :smallsmile:

[Cieyrin]

Shield Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-master-combat---final) is the top of the tree, so it may take a little while to get there, though in the mean time, you can have fun with Shield Slam (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/shield-slam-combat---final) for some maneuvering or go for things like Ray Shield (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ray-shield-combat) so you can block spells (the ranged touch ones, anyways). If you dabble in Two Weapon Fighting, definitely pick up Double Slice so you have full Str on both sword and board and other tricks from there. There's other shield feats that let you share the shield with your friend and allies as well, so there's plenty of paths to pursue that can make sword and board work for you. :smallsmile:

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Awesome! I'll definitely look into this. What's a good ability score spread for a sword-and-board of this nature? I assume it needs at least a decent Dexterity to qualify for the Two-Weapon-Fighting, and I want a good Charisma score so I can also serve as the group's "face" and make the most of my Order of the Blue Rose features.

[Cieyrin]

Awesome! I'll definitely look into this. What's a good ability score spread for a sword-and-board of this nature? I assume it needs at least a decent Dexterity to qualify for the Two-Weapon-Fighting, and I want a good Charisma score so I can also serve as the group's "face" and make the most of my Order of the Blue Rose features.

As I said, I'm not overly familiar with Cavaliers as of yet but, based on the feat requirements, you need a Dex of at least 13 so you can make your entry into TWF to make the most of the rest of the shield tree, which seem to be mostly filled with feat and BAB requirements otherwise. Like any meleer, Str and Con are important so you can take hits and return them. So, basically, Paladin build, Str>Con>Cha>Dex>Wis>Int.

[Tetrasodium]

With the emergence of Ultimate Combat the Samurai class has been introduced to the world with much pomp and ceremony. And of course the immediate question associated with it follows: "How can I play one that's not Japanese?" (I know, technically unless you're playing in a modified version of our world the Japanese people technically don't exist in D&D, but the samurai is so intertwined with our perceptions of Japanese history and culture that it doesn't really matter, your Far East stand-ins are clearly the Japanese).

Ultimate Combat offers some suggestions that Samurai and its progenitor class, Cavalier can be interchangeable to some degree. Cavaliers can take the Samurai orders and vice versa. However, there is one niggling little thing that, to me, firmly cements Samurai in the "exotic/foreign" category. The use of katanas and other such weapons.

In addition to being proficient in all simple and martial weapons, Samurai get free proficiency with the katana, wakizashi and naginata (despite the naginata already being covered by the Samurai's proficiency with all martial weapons).

In addition, they get the Weapon Expertise feature at 3rd level, which gives them special benefits with any one of those 3 weapons as well as with the longbow.

So my question is this: If I want to use the Samurai class and not actually be a character straight out of a Japanese history book, how do I rectify this? The simple answer would be to ignore the weapon proficiencies and just take Longbow when Weapon Expertise rolls around, but that seems more like a cop-out, deliberately ignoring advantages, especially since I don't think you can use a longbow while mounted. What do other, wiser DMs out there think?
You might ask your GM if you can go with a curve blade (finessable 2h weapon from APG) instead of katana and swap out the rest as already pointed out by others ands go that way instead of TWF