The Playground vs the (in)famous Cheese Grinder (pathfinder optimization)

[Douglas]

I will be attending DragonCon in slightly more than two weeks, and I am considering taking part in the Cheese Grinder (http://www.thecheesegrinder.com/) there. Detailed rules are available here (http://www.thecheesegrinder.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=20&Itemid=2), but the main point is build the most overpowered level 11 pathfinder character you can, and then see how long you can last in a neverending dungeon crawl.

I am a fairly accomplished optimizer myself, but I'm much more familiar with 3.5 than pathfinder, I will be competing with other highly skilled optimizers, and there are quite a number of optimizers on these boards too. Plus, my free time is a bit limited, and I figured "why not?"

Playgrounders: build me the cheesiest, most overpowered and broken level 11 pathfinder characters you can put together, and I will take the results to DragonCon, pit them against the dungeon and my fellow Grinders, and report the results. No cheese is too much, no combo is too broken, go wild even with theoretical optimization tricks. If we get something added to the (short) ban list (it's at the bottom of the character creation rules page), so much the better!

Rejoining with a new character after dying is allowed, so there's no need to settle on just one character - feel free to keep a sizable roster of builds under discussion.

Edit:
Please use this google docs template (https://docs.google.com/previewtemplate?id=0AjfaolOnvs6gdEZNenNDdVBTSDBPME 04S1JranRSSEE&mode=public) for character builds. Create a document with the template, make it publicly editable, and post the link in this thread.

New sheets do not have to be completely filled out in every detail, but at least the basic outline of a build should be there and you should make it clear in your post what aspects of the build still need attention from other people.

Also, please note sources for everything not from the core pathfinder book.

[Eldariel]

Well, solo dungeon crawls always lean towards versatility so I suppose an all-rounder like Cleric is probably what we want. PF Druid is still good. I'm thinking for just destroying infinite number of encounters we don't want a Wizard or Witch; we'll want the capacity to destroy weak encounters with attacks without wasting daily resources.

Though Wizards do have Lesser Planar Binding by level 9 and you're allowed to cast spells inside the tournament... Hm. That could be the solution; a horde of Outsiders at your command to handle minor tasks and you as the taskmaster for the major ones.


If I get the time I'll flesh something out. High Op builds are, obviously, more time-consuming than Low Op ones.

[Douglas]

It isn't actually a solo dungeon crawl, so supreme versatility is not required. At any given time there will be 6 people in the party. On the flip side, each player is only rated on how far his own character gets, so I don't expect too much teamwork. Players will be motivated to work together inasmuch as it increases their own chances of surviving longer, but I doubt many people will be taking risks to help each other.

There are occasional rest rooms, but they are random and also depend on me answering trivia questions correctly. High endurance is therefore preferred, but dependence on daily resources is not automatically crippling.

Thanks in advance for any effort you put in for this. I hope to end up with a list of several characters to cheese my way through the dungeon with, and all contributions and suggestions are welcome.

[Coidzor]

You can only rest in designated rest rooms even if you have the power to obviate the need for a designated rest room?

[CTrees]

Solution seems to be to kill the other PCs.

[Douglas]

If you're referring to Rope Trick, I think that would run afoul of this rule:

Dying: A PC is considered dead when any of the following conditions are met
<snip>
4. A PCs body, mind, soul, essence, life force, etc. leaves the current plane of existance for more then an instant. (Teleport, Dim door are ok, plane shift is not) (the spell blink is allowed but beware of planar boundaries)

Completing a room gives you 4 rounds to use the portal to the next room before you're considered dead, so any rest scheme must involve remaining in the room and doing it before the room is completed - and persuading the other players to leave it incomplete for the requisite rest time. Even if I manage that, I'd guess they'll probably institute an in character time limit per room if they don't have one already.

So yeah, resting outside a designated rest room will almost certainly result in death by fiat.

[mootoall]

I would take a look into some psionics. Not familiar with the PF version, but in 3.5 some of the nice Save Game tricks could be done by those at not-too-high levels.

[Coidzor]

and persuading the other players to leave it incomplete for the requisite rest time.

That last part should be relatively easy to do provided their plan is not to kill you as was suggested upthread. Which has the drawback of immediately making one's self a target for this to snowball until it becomes the entire focus of the exercise and they'd have to either accept that or adjust their rules accordingly.


So yeah, resting outside a designated rest room will almost certainly result in death by fiat.

Alright, I was wondering why I wasn't just finding that in the banned section of the rules. So it looks like the only real challenge left is finding how to kill the DM in game... or at least decommission one.

[The Gilded Duke]

I'd go with a Goblin Sohei Monk myself.
They gain mounted combat feats as bonus feats, like all monk bonus feats they don't need to meet the prerequisites.

Do something like this:

1st level feat: Mounted Combat
1st level bonus feat: Mounted Skirmisher to Flurry on a Charge
2nd level bonus feat: Wheeling Charge
3rd level feat: Ride by Attack
5th level feat: Spirited Charge
6th level bonus feat: Indomitable Mount

You also gain half monk level bonus on initiative, always act in the surprise round can flurry with lances and have weapon training as a fighter (I'd go spears to get a bonus on lances) Evasion, and Improved Evasion.

Maybe switch some things up to get some style feats. You will be moving around a lot between Mounted Skirmisher and Wheeling Charge, maybe Crane Style and Crane Wing would help shut down any non pouncing chargers trying to get at you.

Start with a Riding Dog, give it some horseshoes of the Zephyr (ouch) and go from there.

[Xtomjames]

The first thing I'd do is ask if you can use a Quickling (I very much love this monster). It only has a CR 3 and many of the creatures in the monster list is CR 4 - CR 5.

If you can, then play a straight Quickling Rogue, or Quickling Ninja.

If not, then go with the following. Tengu Half-Dragon Monk or Tengju Half-Fiend Rogue. The Tengu is proficient with all sword like weapons, and you'd gain bonuses to all of your ability scores across the board with either of the templates. Since a Tengu doesn't have a CR, you'd gain only the Template LA.

Put 16 in to your Dex and 14 into the rest of your scores = 40 points total as per the website. With the Half-Fiend template you gain +4 to 4 of your scores and +2 to the rest. With a LA of +4 you also gain a fly speed of 60 feet, immunity to poison, Resistance 10 to all of the elements. Darkvision to 60 feet, +1 to Natural Armor, 4 hit dice of Outsider (as you're building this outright rather than applying after the fact). Smite Good once per day. Desecrate 1/day, darkness 3/day, you also gain A half-fiend gains two claw attacks and a bite attack. Damage depends on its size, and because this is a Tengu you start with a bite attack so you increase your Bite attack by one die. (1d4 -> 1d6).

Either taking Monk or Rogue focus on two weapon fighting and using the Tengu's weapon proficiencies to your advantage. Get feats that either allow you to use two weapons with your flurry of blows, or to do sneak attack with two weapons. Also divide your character for long and short range attacks.

Items, Ring or Armor with SR as high as you can purchase (no more than 40k gp per item, total of 100,000 starting). If you buy weapons get the Elven Curve Blade and make it adamantine and Keen, this will give you the ability to essentially ignore the hardness of anything (including natural weapons) and sunder other people's armours. Making it keen gives you a threat range of 15-20.

If you go monk, get Shadow Bracers instead Bracers of Armor. Shadow Bracers grant a +3 to your AC as a deflection bonus not as an AC bonus and is stackable with your Wis and AC bonus from the class.

If you go with rogue, get Shadow Improved Elven Chain. Other magic items to consider, ring of regeneration, and sniper's goggles.

If you go rogue or monk, get a bow or crossbow that you're proficient in. make it a Distance Seeking bow (unfortunately the Everready ability or Endless Ammo ability doesn't exist in Pathfinder, yet).

Strategy: In a case like this, you can just be a sniper or waiter. Instead of going after them, let them come to you. They'll kill each other off giving you time to plan. Ambush is the best.

If for someone reason they do let you play a quickling make it a Quickling Barbarian or Quickling Rogue, similar strategy as above, similar item base and feats as above, except now you have a speed of 120 feet a crap load of bonus feats including spring attack.

[Lord.Sorasen]

You're judged only by how far you get? This is probably terrible advice, but why don't you focus your entire build on not dying? You don't need to worry too much about being effective at actually ending things because your team-mates will be.

Or the other way around: find a way to be incredibly destructive in such a manner that it doesn't really help your team-mates at all.

Play a cleric! Never heal. Your team-mates will get themselves killed as they expect you to perform your role.

[Golkiwu]

For the uninformed, go here:
http://www.thecheesegrinder.com

It will explain the build rules there.

Btw my avitar is Essbiedee and he got me into the CG finals last year.

Kill ya later.....

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Well, you're probably going to play a spellcaster, in which case you definitely want to take the Magical Heritage trait. It will be helpful somewhere.

[Chess435]

I'd personally go with a Half-Elf Synthesist Summoner with at least +19 in UMD to bring a wand of Cure Critical Wounds. Will be easy enough with 11 ranks, +3 class skill bonus, and at least +5 Cha bonus, which you should have by then. As for evolutions, you'll have 16 points to spread around if you use the alternate Favored Class bonus for an extra +2, and up to 3 more if you're willing to spend feats. I recommend ones that will increase your survivability first and foremost, such as Energy Immunity and Ability Increase: Con. Now that you've got not dying figured out, you'll want to go for versatility from here. Choose spells and magic items that allow you to do more than one thing, especially utility items such as Decanters of Endless Water and Immovable Rods. Don't forget your mundane equipment, though! If you have any questions about specific aspects of this build, I'll be lurking.....

[Oge'Xam]

Greetings,

Let me actually give you some pointers myself.

First there is more than one way to skin a cat, and more than one way to get into the finals, not just number of rooms completed (one for good and one for evil). There are awards for best role player, best person to deal with at the reg table, getting the most ACheesements, etc.

Now onto the idea of the perfect build. There is no such thing unfortunately. Since the rooms vary from combat, to puzzles, to riddles, back to combat. You could build the best dragon slayer in the multiverse then run into a bunch of undead.

Keep in mind that every room has a time limit. Not completing the room in said time limit causes you to 'fail' the room. "Success is temporary, failure is permanent."

Therefore economy of actions is VERY important. Not just your character but also you as a player. Keep your mind on the task at hand, when your turn comes up get your turn done asap, be effective and be quick.

We have play tested every room and they can all be completed with using just the pregens we provide and within the time limit. Is it easy to do so? Nope. Some will be cake walks others you will be headed back to the queue ready to die again.

If you are a high DPR PC you will be able to drop the monsters but may be very squishy. If you are high defensive PC you may never get hurt but you are not outputting damage either and failure may come due to time limits of the room. Find a good balance and play smart.

Our mission is to entertain the players. Since we want to entertain as many people as we can we have to kill you off so the next person in line can be entertained. We play by RAW. The DMs are happy for you if you complete the room, but at the same time they are happy to send your PC to the dead pool and toll the bell for you. All with a smile.

Back to the idea of a perfect build. Don’t stress too much. Make several that you would like to try (things any sane DM would not allow in his home campaign). Then step up to the plate and see how well you can do.

[kestrel404]

I've got some ideas. Level 11 is an interesting level - you could go for straight wizard/cleric and have 6th level spells, or you could choose most other classes (a lot of classes get something nice at 10th level) and take a 1 level dip elsewhere...

Give me a bit to ponder and I'll see what I can do.

[mootoall]

Hmm. Two round completion of every room: 1) Test for Dimensional Lock with Dimension door. 2) Skip room with Greater Teleport. Rinse, repeat :smalltongue:

[Douglas]

For a good collaborative effort we really need community-editable character sheets. Putting up a single fully complete and detailed build is a lot for one person to do, but multiple people adding finishing touches would be hell to deal with if we do it through posting here. So, how about we use this google docs template (https://docs.google.com/previewtemplate?id=0AjfaolOnvs6gdEZNenNDdVBTSDBPME 04S1JranRSSEE&mode=public)? Anyone who has an idea for the skeleton of a build, create a sheet with that and make it publicly editable, link it here, describe the basic idea, and then other people can tweak it or fill out details.

Also, please note sources for everything not from the core pathfinder book.


I would take a look into some psionics. Not familiar with the PF version, but in 3.5 some of the nice Save Game tricks could be done by those at not-too-high levels.
I've heard of that, but I'm not familiar with the details. Even if all the necessary components are available in pathfinder by level 11, I'd be worried about running into the OOC time limit for each room.


I'd go with a Goblin Sohei Monk myself.
They gain mounted combat feats as bonus feats, like all monk bonus feats they don't need to meet the prerequisites.

Do something like this:
<snip>
Looks like a decent start for one character, but ideally I'm looking for complete builds here, not just outlines. Ability scores, race, class, feats, skills, spells, items, everything all the way through level 11. Not necessarily all at once and all from one person, but all put together before the Con.


The first thing I'd do is ask if you can use a Quickling (I very much love this monster). It only has a CR 3 and many of the creatures in the monster list is CR 4 - CR 5.

If you can, then play a straight Quickling Rogue, or Quickling Ninja.
The list of allowed monster races is here (http://www.thecheesegrinder.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19:playing-a-monster-ix&catid=5&Itemid=6), and Quickling is not on it.


If not, then go with the following. Tengu Half-Dragon Monk or Tengju Half-Fiend Rogue. The Tengu is proficient with all sword like weapons, and you'd gain bonuses to all of your ability scores across the board with either of the templates. Since a Tengu doesn't have a CR, you'd gain only the Template LA.
Tengu, Half-Fiend, and Half-Dragon are all allowed, though, but +3 or +4 LA is pretty big.

I'd personally go with a Half-Elf Synthesist Summoner with at least +19 in UMD to bring a wand of Cure Critical Wounds. Will be easy enough with 11 ranks, +3 class skill bonus, and at least +5 Cha bonus, which you should have by then. As for evolutions, you'll have 16 points to spread around if you use the alternate Favored Class bonus for an extra +2, and up to 3 more if you're willing to spend feats. I recommend ones that will increase your survivability first and foremost, such as Energy Immunity and Ability Increase: Con. Now that you've got not dying figured out, you'll want to go for versatility from here. Choose spells and magic items that allow you to do more than one thing, especially utility items such as Decanters of Endless Water and Immovable Rods. Don't forget your mundane equipment, though! If you have any questions about specific aspects of this build, I'll be lurking.....
Not something I'm familiar with, but sounds like it might be interesting. Needs a lot more details to be playable, though.


We have play tested every room and they can all be completed with using just the pregens we provide and within the time limit. Is it easy to do so? Nope. Some will be cake walks others you will be headed back to the queue ready to die again.
Whoa, who told the Cheese Grinder folks about this thread? Now they'll have warning that I'm coming!:smalleek::smallwink:

More seriously, will you actually be there, and under what role and name?


Hmm. Two round completion of every room: 1) Test for Dimensional Lock with Dimension door. 2) Skip room with Greater Teleport. Rinse, repeat :smalltongue:
I think that would fall under one of the "considered dead" clauses. Exiting the room has to be done by means of the provided portal, which will only appear when predetermined conditions have been met.

[Oge'Xam]

Whoa, who told the Cheese Grinder folks about this thread? Now they'll have warning that I'm coming!:smalleek::smallwink:

More seriously, will you actually be there, and under what role and name?


I think that would fall under one of the "considered dead" clauses. Exiting the room has to be done by means of the provided portal, which will only appear when predetermined conditions have been met.

First the idea of teleporting out. Well teleport cannot cross planar boundries. The use of Create Demiplane Greater is used to create the 'rooms'. So attempting to teleport out may place you in rather deadly enviornments, or nowhere at all.


Second who told me about this thread? I love to read Order of the Stick, I check it first thing when I get to work. hahaha
Though had never been on the forum here before. A veteran of TCG let me know about said thread, and I was happy to see TCG spreading. I thought I would give you some advice to help you guys create the biggest baddest thing you can come up with.

You ask if I will be there? Oh yes I will be there. As for who I go by? Well I am Oge'Xam, Draziw, Gouda "The Dark", etc. aka the head cheese!

[Oge'Xam]

Now they'll have warning that I'm coming!:smalleek::smallwink:

We will welcome you with open arms.

<adds a notes to add some specific Order of the Stick rooms to put against characters fielded by giantitp forums.>

Thanks, I just thought of some fun stuff to do dealing with OotS! Now if I can just get it designed fast enough. (adds to "to do" list right between new dragon rooms and kamikaze gremlins)

[Eldest]

Gasp! He's the big cheese!
Nothing constructive to add, other than that.

[Retech]

Sadly I cannot come, but here is an idea that can be added to anything:

Negative CR Template Abuse:

Young, Young, Young, Perpetually Drunk, Advanced, Advanced, Advanced, Advanced, Human

Ability Score Modifiers:

Str: +4
Dex: +28
Con: +4
Int: +16
Wis: +16
Cha: +16

Although you probably cannot apply the same template more than once, even though your character is eligible in other respects (anyone have a rules citation for this?)

[Douglas]

Sadly I cannot come, but here is an idea that can be added to anything:

Negative CR Template Abuse:

Young, Young, Young, Perpetually Drunk, Advanced, Advanced, Advanced, Advanced, Human

Ability Score Modifiers:

Str: +4
Dex: +28
Con: +4
Int: +16
Wis: +16
Cha: +16

Although you probably cannot apply the same template more than once, even though your character is eligible in other respects (anyone have a rules citation for this?)
Even if this weren't so clearly overpowered (the level adjustments cancel out to 0, right?) I'd play it just for the laughs. Sadly, the list of allowed templates (http://www.thecheesegrinder.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19:playing-a-monster-ix&catid=5&Itemid=6) is spelled out explicitly, is rather short, and does not include "Young", "Perpetually Drunk", or "Advanced".

[CTrees]

You'd also be Diminutive, with a fairly ridiculous Stealth bonus. Only problem is building from a human base - you'd end up being something like a drunken fetus ninja.

Which is surprisingly awesome, come to think of it.

[Gnaeus]

We will welcome you with open arms.

<adds a notes to add some specific Order of the Stick rooms to put against characters fielded by giantitp forums.>

Thanks, I just thought of some fun stuff to do dealing with OotS! Now if I can just get it designed fast enough. (adds to "to do" list right between new dragon rooms and kamikaze gremlins)

Yay!!!! I want Order of the Stick Rooms! Yay!!!

I will also be there. Proud of my title as the only repeat winner.


Solution seems to be to kill the other PCs.

When a PC dies, another teleports in off the waiting list. Sabotaging other PCs is occasionally helpful, but usually you want basic cooperation in order to finish as many rooms as possible.


Well, solo dungeon crawls always lean towards versatility so I suppose an all-rounder like Cleric is probably what we want. PF Druid is still good. I'm thinking for just destroying infinite number of encounters we don't want a Wizard or Witch; we'll want the capacity to destroy weak encounters with attacks without wasting daily resources.

Though Wizards do have Lesser Planar Binding by level 9 and you're allowed to cast spells inside the tournament... Hm. That could be the solution; a horde of Outsiders at your command to handle minor tasks and you as the taskmaster for the major ones.


My witch won last year. Hexes let me go for more rooms than a wizard could manage. There are no weak encounters. All encounters appear to be CR -1 - CR+4 or so, but the ones that are at or below CR are gimmicks that are highly deadly. Like a dozen low CR monsters with save or lose gaze attacks. Don't roll a 1. The DMs are trying to kill PCs with legal encounters. Every room is deadly to most PCs.

With only 5 minute lag between rooms, buffs are better this year than previously. BUT. Some rooms are likely to end in failure (if, for example, you can't beat the optimized monster within the time limit), and if a rooms fails, you lose all beneficial spell effects.

Summoning is usually a bad strategy in my experience. Unless the outsiders you summon are more effective than an optimized level 11 PC, you are eating time off the clock with their actions. This causes you to time out and lose rooms, which kills your buffs, inflicts damage, and generally snowballs. I keep low level summons (for testing traps) and occasional high level summons, but in general the summons strategy only hurts in this format. And with a 10 minute casting time, good luck getting a planar binding off.

Regarding Rest Rooms, the trivia questions are extremely difficult for most people. Stuff like "In PF, give all the immunities of monster Y", "Give the book price of X". or "name 8 weapons with a damage of Z". A few questions are general geek trivia, but they are also very hard. Do not expect rest. There are a few other rooms (At least historically, didn't see any that I recognized in the regionals) where resting is a possibility. For example, there was a desert room where the PCs had to hike for days to reach the portal. But that is really an exception, and I don't know if it even exists this year.

That is the best advice I can give, and I won't tell you anything that I don't think will help you. But if the forum gives advice that helps me, I certainly plan to use it.

[Wings of Peace]

At that level a Witch might actually be a good choice. Go Beast-Bonded and take the Prehensile-Hair hex. On the off chance you die you enter your familiar body and should still be able to use your spells etc.

You'd have tier 1 versatility and a second chance upon death mechanic. Especially nice since if you get a cleric they should have the opportunity to raise your body.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

If I was playing a cleric I wouldn't have thousands of gp in diamonds lying around just to res my teammate and competitor when a perfectly good new one takes his place after he's gone. That said, you do get more of a chance to complete rooms before you die a second time.

[Xtomjames]

For a good collaborative effort we really need community-editable character sheets. Putting up a single fully complete and detailed build is a lot for one person to do, but multiple people adding finishing touches would be hell to deal with if we do it through posting here. So, how about we use this google docs template (https://docs.google.com/previewtemplate?id=0AjfaolOnvs6gdEZNenNDdVBTSDBPME 04S1JranRSSEE&mode=public)? Anyone who has an idea for the skeleton of a build, create a sheet with that and make it publicly editable, link it here, describe the basic idea, and then other people can tweak it or fill out details.

Also, please note sources for everything not from the core pathfinder book.


I've heard of that, but I'm not familiar with the details. Even if all the necessary components are available in pathfinder by level 11, I'd be worried about running into the OOC time limit for each room.


Looks like a decent start for one character, but ideally I'm looking for complete builds here, not just outlines. Ability scores, race, class, feats, skills, spells, items, everything all the way through level 11. Not necessarily all at once and all from one person, but all put together before the Con.


The list of allowed monster races is here (http://www.thecheesegrinder.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=19:playing-a-monster-ix&catid=5&Itemid=6), and Quickling is not on it.


Tengu, Half-Fiend, and Half-Dragon are all allowed, though, but +3 or +4 LA is pretty big.

Not something I'm familiar with, but sounds like it might be interesting. Needs a lot more details to be playable, though.


Whoa, who told the Cheese Grinder folks about this thread? Now they'll have warning that I'm coming!:smalleek::smallwink:

More seriously, will you actually be there, and under what role and name?


I think that would fall under one of the "considered dead" clauses. Exiting the room has to be done by means of the provided portal, which will only appear when predetermined conditions have been met.

Sorry I might not have been clear I meant Tengu Half-Fiend OR Half-Dragon not both. As for the list of monsters, they say on their website that the books allowed and the monsters list will be Updated, so that's why I said to Ask.

[Gnaeus]

If I was playing a cleric I wouldn't have thousands of gp in diamonds lying around just to res my teammate and competitor when a perfectly good new one takes his place after he's gone. That said, you do get more of a chance to complete rooms before you die a second time.

If you have it, you are unlikely to have the minute to cast it.

[The Gilded Duke]

Template isn't working for me for some reason.

[Eldariel]

Summoning is usually a bad strategy in my experience. Unless the outsiders you summon are more effective than an optimized level 11 PC, you are eating time off the clock with their actions. This causes you to time out and lose rooms, which kills your buffs, inflicts damage, and generally snowballs. I keep low level summons (for testing traps) and occasional high level summons, but in general the summons strategy only hurts in this format.

Regarding Rest Rooms, the trivia questions are extremely difficult for most people. Stuff like "In PF, give all the immunities of monster Y", "Give the book price of X". or "name 8 weapons with a damage of Z". A few questions are general geek trivia, but they are also very hard. Do not expect rest. There are a few other rooms (At least historically, didn't see any that I recognized in the regionals) where resting is a possibility. For example, there was a desert room where the PCs had to hike for days to reach the portal. But that is really an exception, and I don't know if it even exists this year.

I was bringing Planar Binding up because it gets you permanent allies with rather impressive sets of abilities. You can get up to 12 HD outsiders so you get stuff like Glabrezus or Barbed Devils or such. It's trivial enough to get autosuccess on the Cha-check, but the time limit puts a damper on things; its casting time is 10 mins.

If you could do it at a point where you have free time, you could easily generate enough outsider support to trivialize most encounters you're dealing with; having a Glabrezu certainly helps quite a bit, especially with their ability set (constant True Seeing, Reverse Gravitys and Dispels at will, Power Word: Stun & Wish - the spell level restriction only applies to items!). They're also passable brawlers especially with Mage Armor & Greater Magic Fangs cast on them and overall, would probably enable you to skip all the lesser combat encounters and be of assist in the greater ones.

They're CR 13 with 12 HD; a level 11 Wizard is capable of Binding one and you can get a reasonable advantage in the Cha-check with proper preparation. No Moment of Prescience for autosuccess on this level yet, but Circlet of Persuasion, Eagle's Splendor and such help.

[Ernir]

Hmm, no bringing allies with you in, but can you have them before entering this dungeon? If so, you could Planar Bind an Efreeti to get your ability scores up at chargen and such general nonsense.

[Gnaeus]

but the time limit puts a damper on things; its casting time is 10 mins.

Probably makes it undoable. Your best chance would be in a riddle room where you could chant while everyone else tries to solve. But I would say you would be very lucky to get it off. I wouldn't spend a lot of resources trying to make it work if they aren't helping you in some other way.


having a Glabrezu certainly helps quite a bit, especially with their ability set (constant True Seeing, Reverse Gravitys and Dispels at will, Power Word: Stun & Wish - the spell level restriction only applies to items!). They're also passable brawlers especially with Mage Armor & Greater Magic Fangs cast on them and overall,

That would help if you can get it.


would probably enable you to skip all the lesser combat encounters and be of assist in the greater ones.

There really aren't any lesser combat encounters. I can certainly think of some rooms where such a beast will help (golems, advanced giants and the like), but really if it is under CR 14 it is probably a trick where the Glabrezu is not helpful. It isn't immune to fort saves or ability drain, for example, so faced with a dozen shadows all with class levels hiding in the walls or 16 basilisks looking at you it is as dead as anyone else.


Hmm, no bringing allies with you in, but can you have them before entering this dungeon? If so, you could Planar Bind an Efreeti to get your ability scores up at chargen and such general nonsense.


Hiring someone:

You may not hire somebody to do anything for your PC. This means no having a high level mage put an effect on you with permanency. You cannot have spells cast on you. You can buy the scroll and do it yourself, but you cannot have someone else cast the spell.

I think that would block Efreeti wish abuse.

[CTrees]

You're not hiring someone. You're casting your own spells, binding an efreet, and working from there. It's distinctly different.

[Gnaeus]

You're not hiring someone. You're casting your own spells, binding an efreet, and working from there. It's distinctly different.

But it clearly says that you can't have spells cast on you outside the dungeon. You can't have your leadership cohort cast spells on you before game either. IMO, a better loophole is that isn't casting a spell, he is using a Spell Like Ability. But I'm doubtful it will be allowed. I don't know if Wes will give rulings on this board, but it would be a good question for the CG forum.

[CTrees]

The allowance for doing it yourself (via scroll) would seem to open the door, to me, to other castings as a result of your own agency, but I'm not participating, so I don't have a vested interest in getting into a prolonged argument about it. I'll leave it at 'it appears to be arguable, and RAI aren't completely clear.'

[Oge'Xam]

Thanks!

You guys pointed out possible loopholes that needed to be plugged.

The rules have been updated to plug some of these. They are starting to get long. Maybe I should make two sets of rules. One general easy to follow, second long lawyer like to avoid debates on "well it didn't say I could not do X Y or Z"

:)

[Chess435]

Awww man, I really wish I could go now. As for Summoner and variants, you can look here. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner)

[Golkiwu]

True Resurrection

[kestrel404]

It took me a bit (I'm relatively new to pathfinder) but I've got a build that should totally rock the cheesegrinder. It's a super-pets build, based on summoner.

The Party of 1:
Name: Keeper, actual character
Class: Summoner 11
Race: Half-elf (for +2 cha and the Summoner favored class extra)
Role: Buffmaster, battlefield controller.
Traits: Ease of Fiath (+1 Diplo, class skill diplo), Armor Expert (-1 ACP), Focused Mind (+2 Conc check)
Feats: Alertness* (From familiar), Skill Focus (Knowledge (Nature)) (racial bonus), Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan), Eldritch Heritage (Arcane), Boon Companion, Improved Familiar
Skills: Diplomacy 9 (+8 +1 +3 = +21), Know (Nature) 10 (+2 +6 +3 = +21), UMD 11 (+8 +3 = +22), Perception 10 (+0 +4* +3 = +17/+13*), Flight 1 (+3 +3 = +7), Handle Animal 1 (+8 +3 = +12), Know (History) 1 (+2 +3 +2 (aid) +2 (MW) = +10), Know (Nobility) 1 (+2 +3 +2 (aid) +2 (MW) = +10), Know (Dungeoneering) 1 (+2 +3 +2 (aid) +2 (MW) = +10), Know (Engineering) 1 (+2 +3 +2 (aid) +2 (MW) = +10)
Notable powers: Spellcasting, Summon Monster VI 11/day (for 11 minutes (not round)/use, +4 str and +4 con to summoned creatures)
Required equipment: Mithril Breastplate (counts a light armor so no spell failure chance, and due to one of his traits the ACP is 0 so it doesn't matter that he's not proficient), Headband of Cha +4, Wand of Summon Eidolon (note: thanks to the wording of Augment Summoning, you may be able to apply the bonus to spells cast via wand!)


Name: Kali, the Eidolon

CG Large Outsider (Eidolon)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision 60'; Perception +0

DEFENSE
AC 23, touch 11, flat-footed 21 (+2 Dex, +12 Natural, -1 size)
hp 76 (9d10 + 27)
Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +6
Devotion (+4 Will vs Enchantment spells), Evasion

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., fly 30 ft. (Avg)
Melee MW Kukri x10 +18 (1d6 + 8)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.

STATISTICS
Str 26, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +9; CMB +17; CMD 29
Feats Multi-weapon Fighting, Dual Slash, Martial Weapon Prof (Kukri), Presice Strike, Outflank
Skills Disable Device 9 (+2 +2 (MW) +3 = +16), Know (Planes) 9 (-1 +3 +2 (MW)= +11), Acrobatics 6 (+2 +3 = +11), Sense Motive 9 (+0 +3 = +12), Sleight of Hand 9 (+2 +3 = +14)
Languages Common
Evolutions Bite, Large, Wings(Ex), Improved Natural Armor, 5x Limbs(Arms), Limbs(Legs)
SQ Link, Share Spells
Role: Primary flanker - put her on the other side of the enemy from Kong and she gets a +4 flanking bonus, +1d6 precision damage per hit and an attack of opportunity every time he crits.


Name: Kong, the Animal Companion (At character level -1)

TN Large Animal (Ape)
Init +4; Low-light vision, scent; Perception +5

DEFENSE
AC 28, touch 13, flat-footed 24 (+4 Dex, +9 Natural, +6 Armor, -1 size)
hp 58 (9d8 + 18)
Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +4
Devotion (+4 Will vs Enchantment spells), Evasion

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.
Melee bite +13 (1d6 + 7), 2 claws + (1d6 + 7)
Melee Greatsword +14/+9 (2d6 + 11)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.

STATISTICS
Str 24, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +6; CMB +13; CMD 27
Feats Armor Prof (Light), Combat Reflexes, Martial Weapon Prof (Falchion), Precise Strike, Outflank
Skills Acrobatics 4 (+4, +3 -1 = +10), Perception 1 (+1 +3 = +5), Climb 1 (+8 +7 +3 -1 = +18), Survival 1 (+1 +3 = +5), Swim 1 (+7 +3 -1 = +10), Speak Language 1 (Common, -4 = -3)
Languages Common
SQ Animal Companion
Role: Secondary flanker - put him on the other side of the enemy from Kali and he gets a +4 flanking bonus, +1d6 precision damage per hit and an attack of opportunity every time he crits (Note the Combat Reflexes!).


Name: Kris, the Familiar (At character level -2)

Race: Lyrakien Azata
CG Tiny outsider (azata, chaotic, extraplanar, good)
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft., detect evil, detect magic, low-light vision; Perception +16

DEFENSE
AC 21, touch 16, flat-footed 17 (+4 Dex, +5 Natural, +2 size)
hp 50 (11d10 *)
Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +10
Improved Evasion; DR 5/evil; Immune electricity, petrification; Resist cold 10, fire 10

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., fly 80 ft. (perfect)
Melee slam +14 (1d2–3)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks starlight blast
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 3rd; concentration +8)

Constant--detect evil, detect magic, freedom of movement
At will--dancing lights, daze (DC 15), summon instrument, ventriloquism (DC 16)
1/day--cure light wounds, lesser confusion (DC 16), silent image (DC 16)
1/week--commune (6 questions, CL 12th)

STATISTICS
Str 5, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 20
Base Atk +8; CMB +12; CMD 19
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Improved Initiative
Skills Acrobatics 3 (+4, +3 = +10), Bluff 3 (+5 +3 = +11), Diplomacy 9* (+5 +3 = +17), Fly 1* (+8 +4 +4 + 3 = +20), Knowledge (Religion) 3 (+2 +3 = +8), Perception 10* (+3 +3 = +16), Perform (Flute) 3 (+5 +3 = +11), Spellcraft 3 (+2 +0 = +5), Stealth 3 (+8 +4 +3 = +18) Know (Nature) 10* (+2 +3 = +15), UMD 11 (+5 +0 = +16), Handle Animal 1 (+5 +0 = +6), Know (History) 1 (+2 +3 = +6), Know (Nobility) 1 (+2 +3 = +6), Know (Arcana) 3 (+2 +3 = +8), Know (Dungeoneering) 1 (+2 +3 = +6), Know (Engineering) 1 (+2 +3 = +6)
Languages Celestial, Draconic, Infernal; truespeech
SQ traveler’s friend

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Starlight Blast (Su)

As a standard action once every 1d4 rounds, a lyrakien can tap into the divine power of Elysium, unleashing a blast of holy starlight in a 5-foot burst. All creatures in this area take 1d4 points of holy damage, plus 1 point for each step their alignment deviates from chaotic good. For example, a chaotic neutral or neutral good creature would take 1d4+1 points of damage, a neutral creature would take 1d4+2 points of damage, and a lawful evil creature would take 1d4+4 points of damage. A DC 12 Reflex save negates this damage. Chaotic good creatures are unaffected by this ability. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Traveler’s Friend (Su)

The performances and company of a lyrakien ease the burden of travel. Once per day, a creature may spend a minute listening to a lyrakien’s performance— doing so removes the effects of exhaustion and fatigue from the listener.

Role: Wand Wielder & Spotter- Wielding a wand of cure light wounds in one hand and a utility wand in the other, Kris is responsible for keeping everyone else topped up on HP and spotting invisible creatures (which she hits with the wand of faerie fire). The scrolls of See invisibility will last 40 minutes each (200 gp each for Summoner scrolls) so she can keep it up pretty much indefinitely. At need she can swap out for her other utility wands. She's got a 3/20 chance of failing the UMD check, but it's an acceptable risk - and the reason she's carrying multiple CLW wands (any that she can't use for the rest of the day, she can hand off to the main character).
Equipment: 3 wands of CLW, 1 wand of faerie fire, 1 wand of protection from evil, 1 wand of shield, 1 wand of grease, 1 wand of obscuring mist, 1 wand of lesser restoration (paladin), 10 scrolls of see invisibility


Hope that helps!

[Chess435]

It took me a bit (I'm relatively new to pathfinder) but I've got a build that should totally rock the cheesegrinder. It's a super-pets build, based on summoner.

The Party of 1:
Name: Keeper, actual character
Class: Summoner 11
Race: Half-elf (for +2 cha and the Summoner favored class extra)
Role: Buffmaster, battlefield controller.
Traits: Ease of Fiath (+1 Diplo, class skill diplo), Armor Expert (-1 ACP), Focused Mind (+2 Conc check)
Feats: Alertness* (From familiar), Skill Focus (Knowledge (Nature)) (racial bonus), Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan), Eldritch Heritage (Arcane), Boon Companion, Improved Familiar
Skills: Diplomacy 9 (+8 +1 +3 = +21), Know (Nature) 10 (+2 +6 +3 = +21), UMD 11 (+8 +3 = +22), Perception 10 (+0 +4* +3 = +17/+13*), Flight 1 (+3 +3 = +7), Handle Animal 1 (+8 +3 = +12), Know (History) 1 (+2 +3 +2 (aid) +2 (MW) = +10), Know (Nobility) 1 (+2 +3 +2 (aid) +2 (MW) = +10), Know (Dungeoneering) 1 (+2 +3 +2 (aid) +2 (MW) = +10), Know (Engineering) 1 (+2 +3 +2 (aid) +2 (MW) = +10)
Notable powers: Spellcasting, Summon Monster VI 11/day (for 11 minutes (not round)/use, +4 str and +4 con to summoned creatures)
Required equipment: Mithril Breastplate (counts a light armor so no spell failure chance, and due to one of his traits the ACP is 0 so it doesn't matter that he's not proficient), Headband of Cha +4, Wand of Summon Eidolon (note: thanks to the wording of Augment Summoning, you may be able to apply the bonus to spells cast via wand!)


Name: Kali, the Eidolon

CG Large Outsider (Eidolon)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision 60'; Perception +0

DEFENSE
AC 23, touch 11, flat-footed 21 (+2 Dex, +12 Natural, -1 size)
hp 76 (9d10 + 27)
Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +6
Devotion (+4 Will vs Enchantment spells), Evasion

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., fly 30 ft. (Avg)
Melee MW Kukri x10 +18 (1d6 + 8)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.

STATISTICS
Str 26, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +9; CMB +17; CMD 29
Feats Multi-weapon Fighting, Dual Slash, Martial Weapon Prof (Kukri), Presice Strike, Outflank
Skills Disable Device 9 (+2 +2 (MW) +3 = +16), Know (Planes) 9 (-1 +3 +2 (MW)= +11), Acrobatics 6 (+2 +3 = +11), Sense Motive 9 (+0 +3 = +12), Sleight of Hand 9 (+2 +3 = +14)
Languages Common
Evolutions Bite, Large, Wings(Ex), Improved Natural Armor, 5x Limbs(Arms), Limbs(Legs)
SQ Link, Share Spells
Role: Primary flanker - put her on the other side of the enemy from Kong and she gets a +4 flanking bonus, +1d6 precision damage per hit and an attack of opportunity every time he crits.


Name: Kong, the Animal Companion (At character level -1)

TN Large Animal (Ape)
Init +4; Low-light vision, scent; Perception +5

DEFENSE
AC 28, touch 13, flat-footed 24 (+4 Dex, +9 Natural, +6 Armor, -1 size)
hp 58 (9d8 + 18)
Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +4
Devotion (+4 Will vs Enchantment spells), Evasion

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.
Melee bite +13 (1d6 + 7), 2 claws + (1d6 + 7)
Melee Greatsword +14/+9 (2d6 + 11)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.

STATISTICS
Str 24, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +6; CMB +13; CMD 27
Feats Armor Prof (Light), Combat Reflexes, Martial Weapon Prof (Falchion), Precise Strike, Outflank
Skills Acrobatics 4 (+4, +3 -1 = +10), Perception 1 (+1 +3 = +5), Climb 1 (+8 +7 +3 -1 = +18), Survival 1 (+1 +3 = +5), Swim 1 (+7 +3 -1 = +10), Speak Language 1 (Common, -4 = -3)
Languages Common
SQ Animal Companion
Role: Secondary flanker - put him on the other side of the enemy from Kali and he gets a +4 flanking bonus, +1d6 precision damage per hit and an attack of opportunity every time he crits (Note the Combat Reflexes!).


Name: Kris, the Familiar (At character level -2)

Race: Lyrakien Azata
CG Tiny outsider (azata, chaotic, extraplanar, good)
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft., detect evil, detect magic, low-light vision; Perception +16

DEFENSE
AC 21, touch 16, flat-footed 17 (+4 Dex, +5 Natural, +2 size)
hp 50 (11d10 *)
Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +10
Improved Evasion; DR 5/evil; Immune electricity, petrification; Resist cold 10, fire 10

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., fly 80 ft. (perfect)
Melee slam +14 (1d2–3)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks starlight blast
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 3rd; concentration +8)

Constant--detect evil, detect magic, freedom of movement
At will--dancing lights, daze (DC 15), summon instrument, ventriloquism (DC 16)
1/day--cure light wounds, lesser confusion (DC 16), silent image (DC 16)
1/week--commune (6 questions, CL 12th)

STATISTICS
Str 5, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 20
Base Atk +8; CMB +12; CMD 19
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Improved Initiative
Skills Acrobatics 3 (+4, +3 = +10), Bluff 3 (+5 +3 = +11), Diplomacy 9* (+5 +3 = +17), Fly 1* (+8 +4 +4 + 3 = +20), Knowledge (Religion) 3 (+2 +3 = +8), Perception 10* (+3 +3 = +16), Perform (Flute) 3 (+5 +3 = +11), Spellcraft 3 (+2 +0 = +5), Stealth 3 (+8 +4 +3 = +18) Know (Nature) 10* (+2 +3 = +15), UMD 11 (+5 +0 = +16), Handle Animal 1 (+5 +0 = +6), Know (History) 1 (+2 +3 = +6), Know (Nobility) 1 (+2 +3 = +6), Know (Arcana) 3 (+2 +3 = +8), Know (Dungeoneering) 1 (+2 +3 = +6), Know (Engineering) 1 (+2 +3 = +6)
Languages Celestial, Draconic, Infernal; truespeech
SQ traveler’s friend

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Starlight Blast (Su)

As a standard action once every 1d4 rounds, a lyrakien can tap into the divine power of Elysium, unleashing a blast of holy starlight in a 5-foot burst. All creatures in this area take 1d4 points of holy damage, plus 1 point for each step their alignment deviates from chaotic good. For example, a chaotic neutral or neutral good creature would take 1d4+1 points of damage, a neutral creature would take 1d4+2 points of damage, and a lawful evil creature would take 1d4+4 points of damage. A DC 12 Reflex save negates this damage. Chaotic good creatures are unaffected by this ability. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Traveler’s Friend (Su)

The performances and company of a lyrakien ease the burden of travel. Once per day, a creature may spend a minute listening to a lyrakien’s performance— doing so removes the effects of exhaustion and fatigue from the listener.

Role: Wand Wielder & Spotter- Wielding a wand of cure light wounds in one hand and a utility wand in the other, Kris is responsible for keeping everyone else topped up on HP and spotting invisible creatures (which she hits with the wand of faerie fire). The scrolls of See invisibility will last 40 minutes each (200 gp each for Summoner scrolls) so she can keep it up pretty much indefinitely. At need she can swap out for her other utility wands. She's got a 3/20 chance of failing the UMD check, but it's an acceptable risk - and the reason she's carrying multiple CLW wands (any that she can't use for the rest of the day, she can hand off to the main character).
Equipment: 3 wands of CLW, 1 wand of faerie fire, 1 wand of protection from evil, 1 wand of shield, 1 wand of grease, 1 wand of obscuring mist, 1 wand of lesser restoration (paladin), 10 scrolls of see invisibility


Hope that helps!

Kestrel, I hereby declare you to win this thread. Have an internet, a cookie, and satisfaction in the knowledge that you are awesome. May Chuck Norris smile upon you. :smallbiggrin:

[Ed-zero]

It took me a bit (I'm relatively new to pathfinder) but I've got a build that should totally rock the cheesegrinder. It's a super-pets build, based on summoner.

The Party of 1:
Name: Keeper, actual character
Class: Summoner 11
Race: Half-elf (for +2 cha and the Summoner favored class extra)
Role: Buffmaster, battlefield controller.
Traits: Ease of Fiath (+1 Diplo, class skill diplo), Armor Expert (-1 ACP), Focused Mind (+2 Conc check)
Feats: Alertness* (From familiar), Skill Focus (Knowledge (Nature)) (racial bonus), Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning, Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan), Eldritch Heritage (Arcane), Boon Companion, Improved Familiar
Skills: Diplomacy 9 (+8 +1 +3 = +21), Know (Nature) 10 (+2 +6 +3 = +21), UMD 11 (+8 +3 = +22), Perception 10 (+0 +4* +3 = +17/+13*), Flight 1 (+3 +3 = +7), Handle Animal 1 (+8 +3 = +12), Know (History) 1 (+2 +3 +2 (aid) +2 (MW) = +10), Know (Nobility) 1 (+2 +3 +2 (aid) +2 (MW) = +10), Know (Dungeoneering) 1 (+2 +3 +2 (aid) +2 (MW) = +10), Know (Engineering) 1 (+2 +3 +2 (aid) +2 (MW) = +10)
Notable powers: Spellcasting, Summon Monster VI 11/day (for 11 minutes (not round)/use, +4 str and +4 con to summoned creatures)
Required equipment: Mithril Breastplate (counts a light armor so no spell failure chance, and due to one of his traits the ACP is 0 so it doesn't matter that he's not proficient), Headband of Cha +4, Wand of Summon Eidolon (note: thanks to the wording of Augment Summoning, you may be able to apply the bonus to spells cast via wand!)


Name: Kali, the Eidolon

CG Large Outsider (Eidolon)
Init +2; Senses Darkvision 60'; Perception +0

DEFENSE
AC 23, touch 11, flat-footed 21 (+2 Dex, +12 Natural, -1 size)
hp 76 (9d10 + 27)
Fort +9, Ref +5, Will +6
Devotion (+4 Will vs Enchantment spells), Evasion

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., fly 30 ft. (Avg)
Melee MW Kukri x10 +18 (1d6 + 8)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.

STATISTICS
Str 26, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 11
Base Atk +9; CMB +17; CMD 29
Feats Multi-weapon Fighting, Dual Slash, Martial Weapon Prof (Kukri), Presice Strike, Outflank
Skills Disable Device 9 (+2 +2 (MW) +3 = +16), Know (Planes) 9 (-1 +3 +2 (MW)= +11), Acrobatics 6 (+2 +3 = +11), Sense Motive 9 (+0 +3 = +12), Sleight of Hand 9 (+2 +3 = +14)
Languages Common
Evolutions Bite, Large, Wings(Ex), Improved Natural Armor, 5x Limbs(Arms), Limbs(Legs)
SQ Link, Share Spells
Role: Primary flanker - put her on the other side of the enemy from Kong and she gets a +4 flanking bonus, +1d6 precision damage per hit and an attack of opportunity every time he crits.


Name: Kong, the Animal Companion (At character level -1)

TN Large Animal (Ape)
Init +4; Low-light vision, scent; Perception +5

DEFENSE
AC 28, touch 13, flat-footed 24 (+4 Dex, +9 Natural, +6 Armor, -1 size)
hp 58 (9d8 + 18)
Fort +8, Ref +10, Will +4
Devotion (+4 Will vs Enchantment spells), Evasion

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.
Melee bite +13 (1d6 + 7), 2 claws + (1d6 + 7)
Melee Greatsword +14/+9 (2d6 + 11)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.

STATISTICS
Str 24, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 8
Base Atk +6; CMB +13; CMD 27
Feats Armor Prof (Light), Combat Reflexes, Martial Weapon Prof (Falchion), Precise Strike, Outflank
Skills Acrobatics 4 (+4, +3 -1 = +10), Perception 1 (+1 +3 = +5), Climb 1 (+8 +7 +3 -1 = +18), Survival 1 (+1 +3 = +5), Swim 1 (+7 +3 -1 = +10), Speak Language 1 (Common, -4 = -3)
Languages Common
SQ Animal Companion
Role: Secondary flanker - put him on the other side of the enemy from Kali and he gets a +4 flanking bonus, +1d6 precision damage per hit and an attack of opportunity every time he crits (Note the Combat Reflexes!).


Name: Kris, the Familiar (At character level -2)

Race: Lyrakien Azata
CG Tiny outsider (azata, chaotic, extraplanar, good)
Init +8; Senses darkvision 60 ft., detect evil, detect magic, low-light vision; Perception +16

DEFENSE
AC 21, touch 16, flat-footed 17 (+4 Dex, +5 Natural, +2 size)
hp 50 (11d10 *)
Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +10
Improved Evasion; DR 5/evil; Immune electricity, petrification; Resist cold 10, fire 10

OFFENSE
Speed 30 ft., fly 80 ft. (perfect)
Melee slam +14 (1d2–3)
Space 2-1/2 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Special Attacks starlight blast
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 3rd; concentration +8)

Constant--detect evil, detect magic, freedom of movement
At will--dancing lights, daze (DC 15), summon instrument, ventriloquism (DC 16)
1/day--cure light wounds, lesser confusion (DC 16), silent image (DC 16)
1/week--commune (6 questions, CL 12th)

STATISTICS
Str 5, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 17, Cha 20
Base Atk +8; CMB +12; CMD 19
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Improved Initiative
Skills Acrobatics 3 (+4, +3 = +10), Bluff 3 (+5 +3 = +11), Diplomacy 9* (+5 +3 = +17), Fly 1* (+8 +4 +4 + 3 = +20), Knowledge (Religion) 3 (+2 +3 = +8), Perception 10* (+3 +3 = +16), Perform (Flute) 3 (+5 +3 = +11), Spellcraft 3 (+2 +0 = +5), Stealth 3 (+8 +4 +3 = +18) Know (Nature) 10* (+2 +3 = +15), UMD 11 (+5 +0 = +16), Handle Animal 1 (+5 +0 = +6), Know (History) 1 (+2 +3 = +6), Know (Nobility) 1 (+2 +3 = +6), Know (Arcana) 3 (+2 +3 = +8), Know (Dungeoneering) 1 (+2 +3 = +6), Know (Engineering) 1 (+2 +3 = +6)
Languages Celestial, Draconic, Infernal; truespeech
SQ traveler’s friend

SPECIAL ABILITIES
Starlight Blast (Su)

As a standard action once every 1d4 rounds, a lyrakien can tap into the divine power of Elysium, unleashing a blast of holy starlight in a 5-foot burst. All creatures in this area take 1d4 points of holy damage, plus 1 point for each step their alignment deviates from chaotic good. For example, a chaotic neutral or neutral good creature would take 1d4+1 points of damage, a neutral creature would take 1d4+2 points of damage, and a lawful evil creature would take 1d4+4 points of damage. A DC 12 Reflex save negates this damage. Chaotic good creatures are unaffected by this ability. The save DC is Constitution-based.

Traveler’s Friend (Su)

The performances and company of a lyrakien ease the burden of travel. Once per day, a creature may spend a minute listening to a lyrakien’s performance— doing so removes the effects of exhaustion and fatigue from the listener.

Role: Wand Wielder & Spotter- Wielding a wand of cure light wounds in one hand and a utility wand in the other, Kris is responsible for keeping everyone else topped up on HP and spotting invisible creatures (which she hits with the wand of faerie fire). The scrolls of See invisibility will last 40 minutes each (200 gp each for Summoner scrolls) so she can keep it up pretty much indefinitely. At need she can swap out for her other utility wands. She's got a 3/20 chance of failing the UMD check, but it's an acceptable risk - and the reason she's carrying multiple CLW wands (any that she can't use for the rest of the day, she can hand off to the main character).
Equipment: 3 wands of CLW, 1 wand of faerie fire, 1 wand of protection from evil, 1 wand of shield, 1 wand of grease, 1 wand of obscuring mist, 1 wand of lesser restoration (paladin), 10 scrolls of see invisibility


Hope that helps!This would be fine for the most part except that you would not get an animal companion. Boon companion doesn't give you a companion.. All it would do is improve your familiar. Take a level of druid if you really need it.

[Gnaeus]

This would be fine for the most part except that you would not get an animal companion. Boon companion doesn't give you a companion.. All it would do is improve your familiar. Take a level of druid if you really need it.

Sylvan bloodline gives him an AC. He took a feat (eldrich heritage) to get the granted power. He took it again for the familiar.

[Ed-zero]

Sylvan bloodline gives him an AC. He took a feat (eldrich heritage) to get the granted power. He took it again for the familiar.Right you are!

[kestrel404]

Sylvan bloodline gives him an AC. He took a feat (eldrich heritage) to get the granted power. He took it again for the familiar.

Quite so. Although Eldritch Heritage (Sylvan) is a bit questionable - not because the 1st level power for the Sylvan bloodline ALSO counts as the Bloodline Arcana (the feat gives you the 1st level power - the fact that this power counts as MORE than that is just an unrelated bonus). However, it's not clear whether you can choose a Wildblooded bloodline variant. Since the Wildblooded bloodline variants are have all the same qualities as other bloodlines, I assumed it was a valid option.

[Vallum]

Wait... Noticed the Kong the Ape had a greatsword, yet has weapon proficiency: falchion. Error?

[kestrel404]

Wait... Noticed the Kong the Ape had a greatsword, yet has weapon proficiency: falchion. Error?

Editing mistake. I was originally planning on greatsword, but decided that Falchion is the better choice. Damage was corrected but forgot to change the name of the weapon in the attack.

[Oge'Xam]

The Eidolon cannot have 10 attacks. Max attacks listed for an 11th level summoner's Eidolon is 5. What are you using to get 10 attacks?

[kestrel404]

The Eidolon cannot have 10 attacks. Max attacks listed for an 11th level summoner's Eidolon is 5. What are you using to get 10 attacks?

No, the maximum number of NATURAL attacks that an eidolon can have at that level is 5. There is no limit on the number of weapons an eidolon can wield (as long as it has the hands to hold them, which is only limited by the number of limbs(arms) evolutions you can afford) - and multi-weapon fighting allows you to attack with as many weapons as you can wield.

[Oge'Xam]

hahahaha well so that is true. Interesting, looks like when Paizo tried to fix the too many attacks hole in the Eidolon play test they missed one.

Though your attacks would not be +18 for all 10.

Multiweapon fightings does not have the one crucial line that Two Weapon Fighting has "If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each."

Should it be -2 primary and -2 off hand, or should it be -4 primary and -4 off hand since Multiweapon fighting does not talk about the off-hand weapon being light.

Even if it does your attack bonus is +16 not +18. Could be as bad as +14 for all attacks. Sure a lot of attacks, but not hitting most things.

I will do research into this question and the difference with Multiweapon fighting and ofhand weapon being light. If you happen to know a thread where a paizo developer has chimed in on this let me know. Thanks!

[kestrel404]

Ah, you're right. I forgot to add the -2 attack penalty.

As for the question of whether it's a -2 or -4 penalty is a simple one to answer. If you look at the two-weapon fighting feat, there is a chart below it stating that the 'normal penalty for wielding a light off hand weapon' is -4 to the main hand and -8 to the off hand. Thus, with the wording of the multiweapon fighting feat you end up with a -2 penalty on all attacks.

As for never hitting anything - if the average AC in the encounters you're facing is higher than 31 (16 + 4 from flanking bonus +1d20 to hit 1/2 the time) then yes, it's going to be tough. Of course, that's before buffs or magic items are allocated - the summoner gets Haste as a 2nd level spell after all (and it will affect up to 11 targets per casting)...