Dragon Slaying

[evil-frosty]

Well in my current campaign there will be a two year lay off in game time and my two character want to kill an ancient red dragon from early in the campaign, and I am wondering whats the best way to kill it.

My two characters are 6/5/5 cleric/radiant servant of Pelor/Pious Templar(changed so that the templar just advances spellcasting instead of a separate list). Then a 3/15 level ranger/druid. Some random things the druid was converted from 2nd edition hence the ranger levels, he is also limited to to hawk, dire bear, chameleon and shambling mound as wildshape forms. Cleric domains are Sun, Glory and Retribution. Cleric has 14 turn attempts and DMM Persist. Druid has practiced spellcaster to offset the ranger levels and his main focus so far has been melee combat.

Other relevant things cleric has a wisdom of thirty and the druid has an eighteen. The druid has a ring of infinite duration, one personal buff can last for infinity, is changeable, currently it is bite of the werebear. The cleric has a ring of spellstoring with 12 levels of storing. One last thing is that the cleric will be gaining a level very soon and there is an outside chance of the druid gaining one. There is one last fight vs 4 shoggoths before the layoff.

So whats the best way of going about this? Right now all i have is get a lesser rod of metamagic(reach spell) and use shivering touch since it is a cleric spell. I want to kill it for the exp. and well then I am guaranteed all the treasure.

[Gavinfoxx]

That... is a HIDEOUSLY nerfed Druid. Any particular reason it is so nerfed? Balance issues? This seems like a high optimization level game...

[Fouredged Sword]

Shivering touch is your best bet. One or two castings will take out the dragon no problem.

A scroll of hide from dragons will get you close and the ranger should use a scroll or wand of shivering touch and you should cast it useing reach.

Hit from supprise and show no mercy. Stab it in the eyes unitl it dies once it is paraylsed from dex damage.

[evil-frosty]

That... is a HIDEOUSLY nerfed Druid. Any particular reason it is so nerfed? Balance issues? This seems like a high optimization level game...

I made the character when I was 7...11 years ago it was originally a 2nd edition character who was a ranger and then became a druid later in the game. the DM is the one who converted the characters and said I couldnt get rid of the ranger levels. It's worked out fine. The DM is old fashioned so there are a few second edition rules in affect like how druid wildshape works.

Also my two characters are the most optimized, we have 2 fighter/paladins who have the saint templates, 2 mystic theurges. A straight fighter and a fighter/cleric...so ya.


Okay so just shivering touch should be enough? Nothing else? I am just worried about the DM pulling something nasty on me.

[Crow]

Any DM with half a brain is going to make sure you can't one-shot that dragon with shivering touch. Memorizing two castings of ST and calling it good is more of a theoretical way to kill dragons, rather than one that any sane DM is going to let happen. Expect the dragon to have protections of some sort that you'll need to take down first...so Dispel Magic :)

[tyckspoon]

Dex damage is a pretty good way to put down a dragon, and Shivering Touch is an incredibly (and overly) efficient way of delivering it. It has two major problems, however: It's ability damage, and it's Cold-typed, which are both things a suitably wealthy, high-level, and spellcasting opponent can easily deal with. So give it a try, your DM might not have thought about it.. but don't be surprised if it turns out an Ancient Red dragon has found some way to have Cold immunity and resistance or immunity to ability damage.

[Hanuman]

Shivering touch, touch of golden ice, really anything that uses touch AC to apply dex dmg since the bigger dragons get the lower their touch AC gets and their dex never goes above 10. 10 dex dmg, coup de gras.

Mind you, it's far better to not have to start the fight until you want to in the first place-- potions of glibness do help here as well as a good imagination, mixed with a haste and a good dex you might be able to tap him frozen before he gets the picture.

[evil-frosty]

If it helps any it is the red dragon in the Against the Giant mods believe its G3(the one with King Snurre) they are pretty old mods but some of the best dungeon crawl ones published. I believe its supposed to be a Smaug-type dragon as in lets just sleep on this here pile of treasure for a few thousand years. When we first ran into it we were 11th or 12th level and didn't have to fight it so we didn't.

So my first round should be druid casting dispel magic, then cleric following that with a shivering touch? I just really don't want to screw this up since it would be a pretty lame ending to the characters.

[Saintheart]

Well, Shivering Touch will drop its Dex significantly, if not to zero. Don't know if your cleric has Maximise Spell, that'd be a cert since IIRC most dragons don't have a DEX past the low teens.

Bear in mind Spell Resistance, though: there's no save against Shivering Touch, but SR still applies, and an ancient red usually has this in spades. If it's also got Scintillating Scales that's going to complicate things as well. Dispel Magic might bring those defences down, but I'd figure a way to guarantee a hit with Shivering Touch -- i.e. bring down or penetrate its SR. Also bear in mind that if the dragon gets any of its defences up, it would have to go with some form of invisibility or concealment-granting spell, which interferes with a Reach version of a spell since it's a ray and thus needs to hit touch AC.

[evil-frosty]

Well, Shivering Touch will drop its Dex significantly, if not to zero. Don't know if your cleric has Maximise Spell, that'd be a cert since IIRC most dragons don't have a DEX past the low teens.

Bear in mind Spell Resistance, though: there's no save against Shivering Touch, but SR still applies, and an ancient red usually has this in spades. If it's also got Scintillating Scales that's going to complicate things as well. Dispel Magic might bring those defences down, but I'd figure a way to guarantee a hit with Shivering Touch -- i.e. bring down or penetrate its SR. Also bear in mind that if the dragon gets any of its defences up, it would have to go with some form of invisibility or concealment-granting spell, which interferes with a Reach version of a spell since it's a ray and thus needs to hit touch AC.

Assay Spell Resistance is easy enough to cast so to overcome the SR it would be the roll plus 26. I think I need to roll a 2 to beat its natural SR then. I could have true seeing up in case it does get invisible pretty much cancelling all concealment coming from a spell. So the only problem I am seeing is the scintillating scales IF the dragon has that up. My cleric is plus 13 on a range touch while if it is a melee touch is plus 22. Seems like we'll have to gamble on the dispel magic. Any other ideas?

[Saintheart]

Not for actually getting to Dex 0, but another thought I had is that if it's an ancient red, and it has metamagic feats, it might have Sudden Still and Sudden Silent metamagic. Dex 0 will paralyse the dragon, but it can still perform purely mental actions -- and there's a fair number of spells that don't have the ol' (M) component to them. Watch for both arcane and divine spells, since reds on RAW have the capacity to cast both. Beyond that, on Dispel Magic, best thing I can think of is to try and get the DC of your spells as high as possible -- which means casting Owl's Wisdom or something like that to raise your casting stat as high as possible and therefore the DC.

[evil-frosty]

Well possible solutions involve giving myself spell resistance, and just buff myself to kingdom come. Seems like this will work. I cant see it having scintillating scales up as it will most likely be sleeping when I attack.

[NeoSeraphi]

Dispel Magic is easily planned for, just as much as shivering touch. I wouldn't risk it. I would pay a wizard to come with you, and have him cast mage's disjunction once. A wyrm is so big that if the burst was centered in the air above it, it could hit the dragon but not any of the treasure it's sleeping on. One well-placed disjunction would be a lifesaver, potentially, as it could disrupt an anti-magic field the dragon may have surrounding it while it sleeps.

[Acanous]

You could Embrace/shun the dark chaos to swap a feat for Fell Drain.

Then, when you Shivering Touch, the dragon also gets -1 to all D20 rolls, some HP gone, and *It loses it's highest level spell prepared.*
Won't win the fight on it's own, but eating an enemy spell before they can cast it might save you a death.

[Coidzor]

You could Embrace/shun the dark chaos to swap a feat for Fell Drain.

Then, when you Shivering Touch, the dragon also gets -1 to all D20 rolls, some HP gone, and *It loses it's highest level spell prepared.*
Won't win the fight on it's own, but eating an enemy spell before they can cast it might save you a death.

Well, since dragons are spontaneous, it just means it loses one of its highest level spell slots I believe, which is a disadvantage, but mostly only has an immediate effect if the dragon would only have one spell slot of that level available.

Now, once one hits 2-3 negative levels, that's going to have an impact on his ability to continue to put out relevant spells, definitely.

[Fouredged Sword]

Hire 20 adept hirelings and give them all wands of felldrain sonic snap.

Multiple castings of hide from dragons will get you in. 20-30 no save negative levels will kill it during the suprise round.

[Ravens_cry]

One way* (http://andersson.elfwood.com/DragonLayer.2524328.html) to deal with a dragon, for nine months at least.
*While this one should be fine, the artist is not afraid of breasts. Much of the rest is NSFW

[Downysole]

Don't forget that Dispel caps at a d20+10 vs 11+the dragon's CL. Pretty useless spell for an ancient dragon unless you do the higher power ones. You might want to also make sure you look for magic items the dragon is wearing. Try figuring them out before you make your move if you have time (since he's supposedly sleeping).

[evil-frosty]

Don't forget that Dispel caps at a d20+10 vs 11+the dragon's CL. Pretty useless spell for an ancient dragon unless you do the higher power ones. You might want to also make sure you look for magic items the dragon is wearing. Try figuring them out before you make your move if you have time (since he's supposedly sleeping).

So if I go with a greater dispel magic I believe then i have a 50% chance of dispelling buffs? Correct me if I'm wrong(druid would be casting this). And I believe it is sleeping because its pretty much Smaug, at least its obvious thats where the publishers got the idea from. And I can scry it as well beforehand to time my strike perfectly.

And as for the Fell Drain ideas, that is something mt characters wouldn't use at all. Druid and cleric of Pelor, while fell drain is part of the dark side of necromancy(at least in my mind) just doesn't really fit to me. And these two have spent most of their adventures fighting a Lich necromancer.

[Hanuman]

Sure it CAN cast all these things, but what's it's concentration checks?
Surely there must be something to assist this.