Pathfinder: Twin Souled Witch Query

[Wings of Peace]

In Ultimate Magic the Beast-Bonded Archetype for the Witch gains an ability at level 10 called Twin Soul. One of the uses of Twin Soul is that it allows a dying Witch to inhabit the body of her familiar and share the body with the soul of her familiar.

Now, here is my question. Is there any reason by RAW that a witch sharing her familiars body cannot still prepare and cast spells?

[Acanous]

only reason I can think of is V, S components. Possibly M or F if the familiar is too small to carry things.

[Tetrasodium]

In Ultimate Magic the Beast-Bonded Archetype for the Witch gains an ability at level 10 called Twin Soul. One of the uses of Twin Soul is that it allows a dying Witch to inhabit the body of her familiar and share the body with the soul of her familiar.

Now, here is my question. Is there any reason by RAW that a witch sharing her familiars body cannot still prepare and cast spells?
Personally I'd probably allow it & hexes, but... the correct answer is what does your GM say? :)

[Wings of Peace]

only reason I can think of is V, S components. Possibly M or F if the familiar is too small to carry things.

I'm still figuring out the V components but if we take the Prehensile Hair Hex and our familiar is something like a fox then we can use our coat of hair to make gestures. That actually sounds incredibly stylish...


Personally I'd probably allow it & hexes, but... the correct answer is what does your GM say? :)

GM says nothing right now, this is purely a thought experiment. Though the more I look into it the cooler it sounds.

[Tetrasodium]

I'm still figuring out the V components but if we take the Prehensile Hair Hex and our familiar is something like a fox then we can use our coat of hair to make gestures. That actually sounds incredibly stylish...



GM says nothing right now, this is purely a thought experiment. Though the more I look into it the cooler it sounds.

The witch familiar is kind of special in that it's literally the spellbook too, but ts the witchs spellcraft check to learn anew spell. I'd say that having both the prepared caster and the spellbook in one body might allow natural spell type stuff as long as the merged entity is working towards finding a new body or allow it, but ot allow teaching it new spells until a new body is found to avoid any potential rules loophole that could be opened by living in the familiar peranently

[Wings of Peace]

The witch familiar is kind of special in that it's literally the spellbook too, but ts the witchs spellcraft check to learn anew spell. I'd say that having both the prepared caster and the spellbook in one body might allow natural spell type stuff as long as the merged entity is working towards finding a new body or allow it, but ot allow teaching it new spells until a new body is found to avoid any potential rules loophole that could be opened by living in the familiar peranently

The loophole is already there. The two souls in one body thing says that one soul can take a back seat to the other. So the Witch could take a nap and tell the familiar to learn some spells.

[Tetrasodium]

The loophole is already there. The two souls in one body thing says that one soul can take a back seat to the other. So the Witch could take a nap and tell the familiar to learn some spells.
not really...

Learn from a Scroll: A witch can use a scroll to teach
her familiar a new spell. This process takes 1 hour per level
of the spell to be learned, during which time the scroll
is burned and its ashes used to create a special brew or
powder that is consumed by the familiar. This process
destroys the scroll. At the end of this time, the witch must
make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell level). If the check
fails, the process went awry in some way and the spell is
not learned, although the scroll is still consumed.
Even if you could convince your GM that it's ok to have the familiar teach itself, wake you up, and let you make a spellcraft check on something you slept through... it's still going to take it 1hr/level & the witch is still out of commission by virtue of sharing the n use body. That has to be the worst loophole I've heard of. I'm having trouble seeing the problem it's such a piss poor loophole

[Wings of Peace]

not really...

Even if you could convince your GM that it's ok to have the familiar teach itself, wake you up, and let you make a spellcraft check on something you slept through... it's still going to take it 1hr/level & the witch is still out of commission by virtue of sharing the n use body. That has to be the worst loophole I've heard of. I'm having trouble seeing the problem it's such a piss poor loophole

The Witch can still make spellcraft checks even while the familiar is in control of the body. It's not meant to be a game breaking loophole my point is simply that that's how it seems to function by the rules.

[Tetrasodium]

The Witch can still make spellcraft checks even while the familiar is in control of the body. It's not meant to be a game breaking loophole my point is simply that that's how it seems to function by the rules.

can you think of a single way or situation it would matter?

[Wings of Peace]

can you think of a single way or situation it would matter?

Sure. In a scenario where I want to try something different.

[Tetrasodium]

Sure. In a scenario where I want to try something different.

{{scrubbed}}

[Wings of Peace]

So basically... you weren't honest and up front about what you actually wanted to know because you wanted to play as a spellcasting fox or something... if a player sprung something like you've done with this thread on me I'd be highly unlikely to give them the benefit of the doubt or an inch of leeway whatsoever.... Should have come out with the full story in the first post or two of the thread instead of dancing around your real goals

I fail to see how I was not up front nor why you are being so hostile. I had an idea based off some game material, it seemed cool, I wanted the playground's input to confirm I had not made any rule based oversights with the material I had read. There was no deception at any point and I don't understand why you seem to be under the impression I approach the playground in the same manner I would approach my game master.

[Tetrasodium]

I fail to see how I was not up front nor why you are being so hostile. I had an idea based off some game material, it seemed cool, I wanted the playground's input to confirm I had not made any rule based oversights with the material I had read. There was no deception at any point and I don't understand why you seem to be under the impression I approach the playground in the same manner I would approach my game master.

because you started out with an f they die scenario but your goal seems to have been less about life while looking for a new body and more about an interest in playing as the familiar.

[Shadow Lord]

because you started out with an f they die scenario but your goal seems to have been less about life while looking for a new body and more about an interest in playing as the familiar.

Just going to point something out here: He never stated a goal either way. You are making false assumptions based on facts that are non present. And I fail to see how you could take offense based on a goal that was neither stated nor alluded to.

[Tetrasodium]

Just going to point something out here: He never stated a goal either way. You are making false assumptions based on facts that are non present. And I fail to see how you could take offense based on a goal that was neither stated nor alluded to.

He did however very strongly imply it while not actually saying it outright, that sort if thing is usually worthy of a redflag that there is some loophole or exploit opened up by allowing it that the player is hoping to sneak through unnoticed

[Shadow Lord]

He did however very strongly imply it while not actually saying it outright, that sort if thing is usually worthy of a redflag that there is some loophole or exploit opened up by allowing it that the player is hoping to sneak through unnoticed

But there's no loophole or exploit; it's just the rules, as written, being employed. Hell, it's not even all that optimized; a standard Witch is more powerful than this..

[Tetrasodium]

But there's no loophole or exploit; it's just the rules, as written, being employed. Hell, it's not even all that optimized; a standard Witch is more powerful than this..

not that we know of no... If it's as bad as it seems, any sane player will be doing their best to find a suitable body making the whole line of questioning moot & bring into question why it was so important to answer the question of what the witch could do while living in the familiar until finally cornered he admits he wants to "try something different" Maybe he found a way to turn his familiar undead & plans to take advantage of some broken negative energy thing... the point is that we don't know the intentions or reasons

[Cieyrin]

The witch familiar is kind of special in that it's literally the spellbook too, but ts the witchs spellcraft check to learn anew spell. I'd say that having both the prepared caster and the spellbook in one body might allow natural spell type stuff as long as the merged entity is working towards finding a new body or allow it, but ot allow teaching it new spells until a new body is found to avoid any potential rules loophole that could be opened by living in the familiar peranently

If you read the Twin Soul feature, it says explicitly that you can remain in that state indefinitely, with both the familiar and the Witch in the same body. So, basically, there is no loophole here, as the rules say that, whichever form dies, they go into the other body and can happily coexist till they decide to change the living arrangements. The other rules remain in effect, such as figuring out how to go about casting in a non-humanoid body, though there are a few methods in 3.5 that provide, specifically Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species is exactly what your looking for for casting. The preparation and learning of spells may get a bit sticky, but the statement about the two beings being able to think, reason and communicate freely makes me think there should be no problem on that front. Basically, the rules work fine for dealing with this situation, no RAW vs. RAI or annoying the DM till he okays it, the rules say it works and so it does. It's clear as spring water.


not that we know of no... If it's as bad as it seems, any sane player will be doing their best to find a suitable body making the whole line of questioning moot & bring into question why it was so important to answer the question of what the witch could do while living in the familiar until finally cornered he admits he wants to "try something different" Maybe he found a way to turn his familiar undead & plans to take advantage of some broken negative energy thing... the point is that we don't know the intentions or reasons

So, what exactly is wrong with trying something different? All he asked was for opinions on how this situation works in the rules. He didn't say anything else about it that's gonna make this the next PunPun, so I don't see where you flipping out on him about how he's going to use a thought exercise is constructive in the slightest. Being creative isn't a crime.

[Shadow Lord]

not that we know of no... If it's as bad as it seems, any sane player will be doing their best to find a suitable body making the whole line of questioning moot & bring into question why it was so important to answer the question of what the witch could do while living in the familiar until finally cornered he admits he wants to "try something different" Maybe he found a way to turn his familiar undead & plans to take advantage of some broken negative energy thing... the point is that we don't know the intentions or reasons

... What? Just... what? It's not bad at all; it's a real class feature, and you implying that he's asking his question because he's trying to make some kind of insidious plot? I mean... he's just asking if he can still cast spells and prepare spells while using that class feature. More importantly, how was he cornered? And how does wanting to try something different immediately mean " ZOMG HE"S GONNA MAKE SOME BROKEN BUILDZ!!!!!1!!"?

[Tetrasodium]

If you read the Twin Soul feature, it says explicitly that you can remain in that state indefinitely, with both the familiar and the Witch in the same body. So, basically, there is no loophole here, as the rules say that, whichever form dies, they go into the other body and can happily coexist till they decide to change the living arrangements.


exacly... which brings the question of "what does your GM say" and "why does this thread exist instead of just asking your GM" ;). Maybe it's because he's playing 3.P and wants to take levels in the broken class with a nonhumanoid requirement on those who can take it in BoVD. playing in the familiar is sch an obviously inferior choice that you have to wonder if there is a loophole discovered when someone says they actually want to play as the familiar but doesn't seem interested in coming out with the whole story

[Shadow Lord]

exacly... which brings the question of "what does your GM say" and "why does this thread exist instead of just asking your GM" ;). Maybe it's because he's playing 3.P and wants to take levels in the broken class with a nonhumanoid requirement on those who can take it in BoVD. playing in the familiar is sch an obviously inferior choice that you have to wonder if there is a loophole discovered when someone says they actually want to play as the familiar but doesn't seem interested in coming out with the whole story

... Or maybe, and bear with me this might be a big one, maybe they might actually want to play a familiar!!! I know, seems impossible. Really, you need to stop being so paranoid, Tetrasodium. And he did come out with the whole story. Need I quote the exact words of the OP's question? Do I really need to show you word by word how the whole story is just a rules question, even though you seem to be assuming that it has to be so he can break the game into little pieces.

[Tetrasodium]

... Or maybe, and bear with me this might be a big one, maybe they might actually want to play a familiar!!! I know, seems impossible. Really, you need to stop being so paranoid, Tetrasodium. And he did come out with the whole story. Need I quote the exact words of the OP's question? Do I really need to show you word by word how the whole story is just a rules question, even though you seem to be assuming that it has to be so he can break the game into little pieces.

If it was a case of wanting to play the familiar, why not come out saying something like "I think it would be cool to play the familiar, and it looks like they might be able to still learn/prepare spells, are there any potential snags that might stop it from working or cause other problems when doing so?"... instead it took multiple different why's before admitting simply that her wants to play something different rather than outright saying he would like to play as the familiar.

As to why the paranoid reasoning came into play?... I've had players that would do things like ask if it's ok to play an awakened wolf with rolled stats instead of the monster manual one?... uhh.. ok I guess?... I hit a snag... can I have natural spell at level1 or the MoMF thing that lets me talk too so it can communicate? *boom* > druid capable of casting while shapeshifted by asking questions not unlike the OP's.

[Shadow Lord]

If it was a case of wanting to play the familiar, why not come out saying something like "I think it would be cool to play the familiar, and it looks like they might be able to still learn/prepare spells, are there any potential snags that might stop it from working or cause other problems when doing so?"... instead it took multiple different why's before admitting simply that her wants to play something different rather than outright saying he would like to play as the familiar.

As to why the paranoid reasoning came into play?... I've had players that would do things like ask if it's ok to play an awakened wolf with rolled stats instead of the monster manual one?... uhh.. ok I guess?... I hit a snag... can I have natural spell at level1 or the MoMF thing that lets me talk too so it can communicate? *boom* > druid capable of casting while shapeshifted by asking questions not unlike the OP's.

I... I don't understand the purpose of the entire second paragraph. Honestly, I don't. And I honestly don't see how wanting to have natural spell at level one for an awakened wolf is so over powered. Honestly, it seems like you're blowing everything out of proportion.

And your first paragraph? Well, the OP doesn't really need to tell you that; it's a simple mechanics question. And saying he wants to play something different honestly doesn't seem to even matter; it's a simple RAW question, to which you answered as if he was going to break the game into little tiny pieces.

[Cieyrin]

exacly... which brings the question of "what does your GM say" and "why does this thread exist instead of just asking your GM" ;). Maybe it's because he's playing 3.P and wants to take levels in the broken class with a nonhumanoid requirement on those who can take it in BoVD. playing in the familiar is sch an obviously inferior choice that you have to wonder if there is a loophole discovered when someone says they actually want to play as the familiar but doesn't seem interested in coming out with the whole story

There is no DM or game involved in this situation, it's a thought exercise. THOUGHT EXERCISE. It means he's looking at it to see how viable and interesting it can be and he asked for thoughts on it. That's all there is to it. He's not looking for fodder to use against his DM to badger him/her into playing a unique concept or any such thing. He just asked for opinions on the subject, that's all. Coming up with the core idea is the beginning step of any character creation process, broken or otherwise, so there is no reason to get upset about an idea that may never make it to the game table, much like how any build might never see the light of day. This could be the beginning of some TO or he could just like to see how this Witch archetype works so that he can present it to a DM and get the okay then.
{{scrubbed}}

[Tetrasodium]

I... I don't understand the purpose of the entire second paragraph. Honestly, I don't. And I honestly don't see how wanting to have natural spell at level one for an awakened wolf is so over powered. Honestly, it seems like you're blowing everything out of proportion.

And your first paragraph? Well, the OP doesn't really need to tell you that; it's a simple mechanics question. And saying he wants to play something different honestly doesn't seem to even matter; it's a simple RAW question, to which you answered as if he was going to break the game into little tiny pieces.

{{scrubbed}}

[Tetrasodium]

There is no DM or game involved in this situation, it's a thought exercise. THOUGHT EXERCISE. It means he's looking at it to see how viable and interesting it can be and he asked for thoughts on it. That's all there is to it. He's not looking for fodder to use against his DM to badger him/her into playing a unique concept or any such thing. He just asked for opinions on the subject, that's all. Coming up with the core idea is the beginning step of any character creation process, broken or otherwise, so there is no reason to get upset about an idea that may never make it to the game table, much like how any build might never see the light of day. This could be the beginning of some TO or he could just like to see how this Witch archetype works so that he can present it to a DM and get the okay then. Bringing out the Spanish Inquisition is no way to treat a fellow gamer whose only trying to have fun, which this hobby is about. So why don't we lay off and return to the ACTUAL TOPIC, though I have the feeling Wings has got the info he wants and has abandoned the thread already for not wanting to deal with accusations for a though exercise. Way to go, Stop Having Fun Guy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StopHavingFunGuys).

so why not tell us the core idea instead of asking about one specific potential snag?

[Shadow Lord]

{{scrubbed}}

[Tetrasodium]

... Are you telling me that you mind raped one of your player's characters and forced him to do everything you wanted him to do? Even further, you had the party helping someone else hold reality together?

prior to the start of the game to let him create the character he was asking for & agreed to thinking it was cool as well, the collar was the thing that helped me because it could force the wearer into doing things like sit/heel/stay as agreed upon. He never asked if anyone other than the wizard who gave it to him & did the mindrape would be able to learn to use it... since I got "you never asked what class" when he pulled out the druid cheeze I felt perfectly justified in allowing others to learn to use it easily with the same answer for why/how. The game started around level 6-10 or so from my recollection. The mindrape had nothing to do with forcing him to do anything, just make unspecified npc into a wolf with the MoMF ability to speak/cast as an animal without burning a feat slot or level in MoMF. I never forced them to do anything, and the person they were helping was basically locked away in a plane of his own creation with increased time speed & magic to allow him to act fast enough to hold the cracks from growing too fast so someone (the players) could fix it due to his inability to both hold it together and repair it at the same time. They were always welcome to join up with the folks who wanted to reshape reality, they even got offers to. One of those iffers even offered to remove the collar* after the munchkin had started to grow his character as a "person" to the point of enjoying himself without the munchkinism

Are you saying you've never had an NPC that hired/employed the players in your game before?
* it gave some additional benefits & they all had them willingly by that point after asking for them a while back when they went to the wizard to ask for them for some reason

[Zale]

{{scrubbed}}

Anyway, I have no real idea if this would work, unless you figured out how to do the S components..

Wait, can Witch Familiars even talk? :smallconfused:

[Shadow Lord]

{{scrubbed}}

Anyway, I have no real idea if this would work, unless you figured out how to do the S components..

Wait, can Witch Familiars even talk? :smallconfused:

Well, since a Witch's Familiar gets speak with master, I assume that it can.

[Zale]

Well, since a Witch's Familiar gets speak with master, I assume that it can.

But for the purpose of Verbal Spell components?

[Shadow Lord]

But for the purpose of Verbal Spell components?

The speaking is defined as verbal, so I'd say yes.

[RagnaroksChosen]

because when he rightly pointed out "crap natural spell is just for casting, can I have this MoMF thing that lets me talk instead of natural spell? so I can communicate?" If you can't see the problem with a munchkin controlled druid that can cast spells while wildshaped & still communicate and be even more munchkiny because they got it free without having to burn a feat slot... I'm not sure I can explain why it's bad.

What???
How is this munckiny.. ya the free natural spell that is a little OP. but in all honesty if a druid player/group hasn't found a way to communicate when hes in animal form then they fail. Its super simple. Any sort of telepathy works. O look a head band of telepathy... drop it to the ground change shape then put it on... or just get a wildling clasp(if it can work on a head slot i can't remember)...

So no.. it's not muchkiny. To be honest it sounds like you are just calling it muchkiny because it is causing you a hard time as a gm... not because it is actualy muchkiny, which it is not.



To OP:
I'm not a huge fan of PF, though I am a huge fan of the witch.
Are there any advanced familiars a witch can get(or is there a PF improved familiar feat)

[Tetrasodium]

What???
How is this munckiny.. ya the free natural spell that is a little OP.
by stacking the most munchkiny druid build he could find* on top of it. Once he tone down the bear summoning bears while riding a bear style stuff it was fine... and it wasn't natural spell, it was the improved master of many forms version because he said he was thinking about being a "sneaky" sort.

I don't have trouble dealing with high op characters, but giving them free stuff when they are far and above the rest of the group already because they asked for it in a way that suggested they were going to be trying to step down a bit in the optimization to match up better with the rest of the group is different & made me wary when people start things like the OP.

*later it was self admitted when he said he wished he hadn't made it so munchkiny because he didn't really fit into the rest of the group & started having a lot more fun once he cut down on the cheeze to play on a similar level as the rest of the group.

[Major]

On a side note, I once gave a player a powerful ability for free and he used it and got powerful. Because he conned me and because I was stupid and gave it free with no feat requirement that means all players are evil and out to get their DMs. Also every rule question is a build request.

I'm with Tetra here.

[Tetrasodium]

On a side note, I once gave a player a powerful ability for free and he used it and got powerful. Because he conned me and because I was stupid and gave it free with no feat requirement that means all players are evil and out to get their DMs. Also every rule question is a build request.

I'm with Tetra here.

up until he said "Sure. In a scenario where I want to try something different." when I asked for a single situation where it would matter, my thoughts were pretty much that it's such a suboptimal thing that the player would probably be trying to find a new body, but that I couldn't see why a GM wouldn't let you do stuff like that so you could contribute towards finding yourself a new body... he pretty much said it was because he wanted to make a build out of it making me wonder why he didn't just say that to begin with & get better feedback about the idea than just a single aspect with no real reason to suggest in RAW that it wouldn't be possible to learn/prep spells while looking for a body. Rules questions might not always be build request related, but they should at least consider the possibility that it could be related to one once it goes beyond a certain point

[Acanous]

Somatic components are always something that's bugged me in DnD.

Dragons invented arcane magic in most settings. (Alluded to in RAW, spellcasting is done in Draconic.)

Dragons cast as sorcerors.

Dragons do not have a humaniod shape.

Why can humans cast spells when the somatic component propably calls for "Twitch left wing twice northward"??

Anyhow, if the Verbal is met by "Speak with Master" (which is kind of also a workaround, if the master's in the same body, and reciting verbal components is similar to talking to yourself...) and Somatic can be met with that hair hex thing, you're real only limitation would be access to material components.

[Arbane]

To OP:
I'm not a huge fan of PF, though I am a huge fan of the witch.
Are there any advanced familiars a witch can get(or is there a PF improved familiar feat)

Yes, there is an Improved Familiar feat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/improved-familiar), and I don't see any reason a Witch couldn't use it. (Aside from needing to lose their regular familiar, which will HURT.)

[TurtleKing]

Are Witches able to get a Raven as a animal companion? Because if they can then that would be the go to animal since they can speak. Add on the Prehensile hex which basically is usable all day long...no it isn't. If it wasn't for the limit then that would be great plus Ravens have feathers not hair or an equilavent. So if you want to be able to use spells with the V component the Raven works just fine. If you want to easily use spells with S components the Monkey can help there. For anything past that you will need the Improved Familar feat to get both.

[Tetrasodium]

Are Witches able to get a Raven as a animal companion? Because if they can then that would be the go to animal since they can speak. Add on the Prehensile hex which basically is usable all day long...no it isn't. If it wasn't for the limit then that would be great plus Ravens have feathers not hair or an equilavent. So if you want to be able to use spells with the V component the Raven works just fine. If you want to easily use spells with S components the Monkey can help there. For anything past that you will need the Improved Familar feat to get both.

they can pick from any of the normal ones plus a few extras

[Cieyrin]

But for the purpose of Verbal Spell components?

This is why I suggested Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species. The feat enables non-humanoid casting, regardless of the shape of their noise makers or the lack of hand-like appendages. Spending a feat on it shouldn't be a problem for any DM, since the player has to expend a limited resource (feats) to enable it, as opposed to getting other things like metamagic or anything else a normal full caster would be pursuing. Well, unless the DM doesn't want non-humanoids in the party but regardless, this is a thought experiment on published material, nothing to get upset or angry about. And really, if a player pulls a fast one on a DM, no good DM worth their salt can't turn them tables around right quick, such as the social ramifications of being a crow in a human world ("You can't bring that filthy creature into my establishment!") to other mechanical things ("Kitty wants to go out? Too bad the door is closed, too bad, Kitty!").

In any case, there's no reason to think this situation automatically means there's a player vs. DM situation, which only makes for bad blood and unfun at the table typically. Some DMs like their players to be creative and to challenge themselves in roleplaying situations ("All right, you're all Flumphs! Roll up some characters!"), so getting hostile over a build makes no sense.

[Tetrasodium]

In any case, there's no reason to think this situation automatically means there's a player vs. DM situation, which only makes for bad blood and unfun at the table typically. Some DMs like their players to be creative and to challenge themselves in roleplaying situations ("All right, you're all Flumphs! Roll up some characters!"), so getting hostile over a build makes no sense.


Looks like those of us who smelled something fishy were right (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211948) in calling for more details. The reason for the question was to pull one over on a "gm" in the cheesegrinder thread by making a character that could die twice or die and continue to play. It wasn't for something flavorful like we were accused of thwarting when someone with a potentially flavorful idea came out asking about a specific minute detail without the flavored context rather than detailing the flavor and asking fir help in making sure it worked...

Once you've seen it a few times, you start to suspect similar approaches as being potentially problematic & in need of suspicion... ;)


At that level a Witch might actually be a good choice. Go Beast-Bonded and take the Prehensile-Hair hex. On the off chance you die you enter your familiar body and should still be able to use your spells etc.

You'd have tier 1 versatility and a second chance upon death mechanic. Especially nice since if you get a cleric they should have the opportunity to raise your body.

[senrath]

...*facepalm*. You can't "pull one over" on the Cheese Grinder! The whole point is to bust out the most powerful RAW tricks you can find.

[Shadow Lord]

Looks like those of us who smelled something fishy were right (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211948) in calling for more details. The reason for the question was to pull one over on a "gm" in the cheesegrinder thread by making a character that could die twice or die and continue to play. It wasn't for something flavorful like we were accused of thwarting when someone with a potentially flavorful idea came out asking about a specific minute detail without the flavored context rather than detailing the flavor and asking fir help in making sure it worked...

Once you've seen it a few times, you start to suspect similar approaches as being potentially problematic & in need of suspicion... ;)

... Tetra? Guess what? Just because someone happens to use something from this thread doesn't mean it was for that thread. And guess what else?

That Thread Was Specifically For A Game Where People Were Supposed To Make The Strongest Character They Can. And Another Thing; Why Are You Bringing Baggage From Another Thread On This Thread? What Happens In That Thread Does Not Effect This Thread. They Are Two Separate Things.

[Tetrasodium]

... Tetra? Guess what? Just because someone happens to use something from this thread doesn't mean it was for that thread. And guess what else?

That Thread Was Specifically For A Game Where People Were Supposed To Make The Strongest Character They Can. And Another Thing; Why Are You Bringing Baggage From Another Thread On This Thread? What Happens In That Thread Does Not Effect This Thread. They Are Two Separate Things.

Because the OP was so quick to respond that first night then suddenly went silent once he started getting called out to confirm/deny appearances I was curious where he went & checked his post history to see if he was around in other thread, but his only recent postings were this & that thread.
As to the point being to make the most broken RAW abusing character, getting locked into the body of your familiar is hardly broken, it exploits the contest rules though by death being technically only a setback and undeservedly ranks witch higher than it should compared to some actually broken RAW abusing build

[Shadow Lord]

Because the OP was so quick to respond that first night then suddenly went silent once he started getting called out to confirm/deny appearances I was curious where he went & checked his post history to see if he was around in other thread, but his only recent postings were this & that thread.
As to the point being to make the most broken RAW abusing character, getting locked into the body of your familiar is hardly broken, it exploits the contest rules though by death being technically only a setback and undeservedly ranks witch higher than it should compared to some actually broken RAW abusing build

So... let me get this right:


You don't understand the point of the Cheesegrinder.
You think that his RAW build is not as good as other builds, because it can cheat Death.
You brought baggage from another thread into this one.
You think that he stopped replying because you somehow had him against a wall. It's impossible it's not because he didn't want to deal with someone accusing him of being a Munchkin.
And you also happen to believe that he is a Munchkin, even though you have no evidence to that point.


Could I kindly point you to the Rules of Posting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=59&a=1)?

[Douglas]

Because the OP was so quick to respond that first night then suddenly went silent once he started getting called out to confirm/deny appearances I was curious where he went & checked his post history to see if he was around in other thread, but his only recent postings were this & that thread.
As to the point being to make the most broken RAW abusing character, getting locked into the body of your familiar is hardly broken, it exploits the contest rules though by death being technically only a setback and undeservedly ranks witch higher than it should compared to some actually broken RAW abusing build
A) Abusing RAW is pretty much the whole point of the Cheese Grinder.
B) I fail to see how the Witch/Familiar thing is abusing CG contest rules rather than abusing RAW.
C) I fail to see how this would be any more of a special advantage in CG than it would be in normal play.

[Tetrasodium]

So... let me get this right:


You don't understand the point of the Cheesegrinder.
You think that his RAW build is not as good as other builds, because it can cheat Death.
You brought baggage from another thread into this one.
You think that he stopped replying because you somehow had him against a wall. It's impossible it's not because he didn't want to deal with someone accusing him of being a Munchkin.
And you also happen to believe that he is a Munchkin, even though you have no evidence to that point.


Could I kindly point you to the Rules of Posting (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/announcement.php?f=59&a=1)?


It's not my fault so many people naively thought this thread was for purposes of playing a flavored character and got nasty when people tried to get confirmation on if it was for the intent of exploiting a then unknown loophole in RAW.

[Shadow Lord]

It's not my fault so many people naively thought this thread was for purposes of playing a flavored character and got nasty when people tried to get confirmation on if it was for the intent of exploiting a then unknown loophole in RAW.

I'm sorry, sir, but it is you who was nasty first. And once again, I courteously request that you go look at the Rules of Posting.

[Cieyrin]

It's not my fault so many people naively thought this thread was for purposes of playing a flavored character and got nasty when people tried to get confirmation on if it was for the intent of exploiting a then unknown loophole in RAW.

I haven't even read this other thread. Reading a forum does not mean having concurrent knowledge of every other thread. Also, it's not a loophole, that's what the rules actually say. And why is it naive to not be aware of other threads? I have a life beyond these forums, thanks.

[Tetrasodium]

I'm sorry, sir, but it is you who was nasty first. And once again, I courteously request that you go look at the Rules of Posting.

I disagree and have to wonder how anyone could still believe that the OP was being "honest and up front" when I said it looked like he wasn't being honest & up front in the thread. The OP suddenly disappearing from the thread combined with his activity in the cheesegrinder thread makes it even more likely that I was simply correct in my suspicions when I called him on it. Multiple people got nasty towards me for not encouraging some potentially flavorful idea, but it's pretty clear that there was never a flavorful idea, just a loophole that was kept hidden after multiple statements in support and asking why it would matter or be problematic with the apparently nonexistent "something different" character simply a ruse to help him with thwarting the GM's potential reaction to his idea using a loophole in the contest rules rather than RAW rules. I was actually rather disappointed that the OP was so dishonest in the thread since it could have otherwise been enjoyable to talk about an intewresting flavored character.

[Douglas]

I'm still not seeing how this is a contest rules loophole rather than a RAW issue.

[Tetrasodium]

I'm still not seeing how this is a contest rules loophole rather than a RAW issue.

in a normal game, being locked in the body of your familiar till you can find a new suitable body at level 10+ is a pretty severe hit & something people would likely try to fix as soon as possible making the fact that they are still technically alive a fairly trivial thing rather than something that needs eratta or serious consideration when future content is added. In the contest however, it's no longer a trivial thing and is of significant benefit due to the artificial nature of the game.

[Douglas]

As I understand it, this isn't just about still being alive but rather about still being alive and also able to use your spells and magic abilities. That is rather nontrivial in any game no matter how you look at it.

[Tetrasodium]

As I understand it, this isn't just about still being alive but rather about still being alive and also able to use your spells and magic abilities. That is rather nontrivial in any game no matter how you look at it.

it doesn't explicitly say you can't and appears likely that you can (especially for some familiars). Plus even without spells, you could still use the hexes (which are anything but trivial)

[Cieyrin]

I disagree and have to wonder how anyone could still believe that the OP was being "honest and up front" when I said it looked like he wasn't being honest & up front in the thread. The OP suddenly disappearing from the thread combined with his activity in the cheesegrinder thread makes it even more likely that I was simply correct in my suspicions when I called him on it. Multiple people got nasty towards me for not encouraging some potentially flavorful idea, but it's pretty clear that there was never a flavorful idea, just a loophole that was kept hidden after multiple statements in support and asking why it would matter or be problematic with the apparently nonexistent "something different" character simply a ruse to help him with thwarting the GM's potential reaction to his idea using a loophole in the contest rules rather than RAW rules. I was actually rather disappointed that the OP was so dishonest in the thread since it could have otherwise been enjoyable to talk about an intewresting flavored character.

Where's the dishonesty!?! Where's the ruse?!? Look at the OP:


In Ultimate Magic the Beast-Bonded Archetype for the Witch gains an ability at level 10 called Twin Soul. One of the uses of Twin Soul is that it allows a dying Witch to inhabit the body of her familiar and share the body with the soul of her familiar.

Now, here is my question. Is there any reason by RAW that a witch sharing her familiars body cannot still prepare and cast spells?

I'm not seeing where in that he cackles evilly about making DMs and his fellow players cry or how he's gonna break the campaign by being a witch in a crow's body. All I've seen is you suddenly start twisting words and making accusations. Have you even read Beast Bonded (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/witch/archetypes/paizo---witch-archetypes/beast-bonded)?

The ability in question reads as follows:
Twin Soul (Su)

At 10th-level, if the witch or her familiar is gravely injured or about to die, the soul of the dying one immediately transfers to the other’s body. The two souls share the surviving body peaceably, can communicate freely, and both retain their ability to think and reason. The host may allow the guest soul to take over the body temporarily or reclaim it as a move action. They can persist in this state indefinitely, or the guest can return to its own body (if available) by touch, transfer into a suitable vessel (such as a clone), or take over another body as if using magic jar (with no receptacle).
This replaces the witch’s major hex at 10th-level.

There is no loophole about being permanently in the familiar or vice versa, it says, in black and white, that you can exist in this state peaceably and indefinitely. The rules may be a little vague on how casting or preparing spells works (All spells cast as Silent?) but you're the one who started bandying words like:


not really...

Even if you could convince your GM that it's ok to have the familiar teach itself, wake you up, and let you make a spellcraft check on something you slept through... it's still going to take it 1hr/level & the witch is still out of commission by virtue of sharing the n use body. That has to be the worst loophole I've heard of. I'm having trouble seeing the problem it's such a piss poor loophole

and making false accusations like:


So basically... you weren't honest and up front about what you actually wanted to know because you wanted to play as a spellcasting fox or something... if a player sprung something like you've done with this thread on me I'd be highly unlikely to give them the benefit of the doubt or an inch of leeway whatsoever.... Should have come out with the full story in the first post or two of the thread instead of dancing around your real goals

What does it matter what he wants to do with it? He wasn't asking for state secrets or a social security number, he asked a simple question, how casting works if you're locked in familiar form. You added extra rules that I can only see are based on assumptions, rather than reading what the rules actually say, just what you thought they said and then getting angry about something that didn't actually happen.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Thread closed for rampant misbehavior. Warnings and/or infractions will follow. If you need more information, Wings of Peace, you may restart the thread, but further flaming WILL not happen.