[3.5] Knightly Skills

[Thurbane]

Do you think giving the Knight 4 skill points per level and the Aristocrat’s skill list would make much difference to it’s playability and/or power? I’m considering playing a Knight in an upcoming game, and was thinking of approaching the DM to see if he’ll let me have the skills of an Aristocrat (NPC class).

[Zaq]

Seems reasonable to me. It always really bugged me that they don't get Diplomacy and K: History.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

What's the rest of the party like? What does your build look like? It's definitely not going to break anything, and melees need more skills in general. If anything, I'd say "not enough," but Knights can be made to work pretty well in certain settings.

[Thurbane]

Rest of the party is very much up-in-the-air, but it's looking vaguely like:

Human Fighter (spiked chain tripper)
(?) Cleric
(?) Rogue
(?) Wizard
(?) unknown at this stage

It's a fairly low-middle op group, and the DM has already said we'll be limited to the PHB & PHBII for the most part. I hadn't really thought much about my build beyond the basics at this stage. Game is likely to be starting up in about a month or so. We'll be starting at 1st, playing through to about 10th.

I'm not 100% set on Knight, but it's a class I haven't played yet, so I was interested...

[Optimator]

I'd say go for it. It's potentially useful and far from overpowered.

[Person_Man]

I would allow it. I would also allow Leadership to get a strong mount. If he's playing with a Tier 1-2 party, then I'd throw in some more bonus feats or Paladin abilities on his dead and dead-ish levels.

[FMArthur]

I would allow it. I would also allow Leadership to get a strong mount. If he's playing with a Tier 1-2 party, then I'd throw in some more bonus feats or Paladin abilities on his dead and dead-ish levels.

Eh, if it's a fairly low-op game he'll probably have much more system mastery than the rest. I wouldn't overdo it with lots of extaneous new features because he could just look to them like a powergamer asking for extra power. Unless fluke discoveries of glorious overpowerium by the casters start happening, he should be fine. Wild Cohort is enough for a mount without busting out Leadership.

[Eldariel]

I'm pained by all the classes' low skills. Paladin, Fighter, Knight, Swashbuckler, etc. are all plagued by lacking skillpoints and with 3.5's chimeric skill system, even Rogues should have way more. I 100% think Knights should have 4+Int and then some, and a wider skill list. Go for it; it'll break nothing but make for more interesting characters.

[Cieyrin]

I'm pained by all the classes' low skills. Paladin, Fighter, Knight, Swashbuckler, etc. are all plagued by lacking skillpoints and with 3.5's chimeric skill system, even Rogues should have way more. I 100% think Knights should have 4+Int and then some, and a wider skill list. Go for it; it'll break nothing but make for more interesting characters.

I wholeheartedly agree, though Swash isn't that bad as skill list/skill points go, as they have most of the social skills that you can get away with being the party Face or perhaps just bring your image as the local fop full circle with skill points to back it up.

[Eldariel]

I wholeheartedly agree, though Swash isn't that bad as skill list/skill points go, as they have most of the social skills that you can get away with being the party Face or perhaps just bring your image as the local fop full circle with skill points to back it up.

Well, I find 4+Int too few for a class that's basically defined by extreme social grace & unbelievable acrobatics. I mean, you need 4 points alone for various acrobatics and other 4 points for socials. Better have 18 Int, eh? I think they should have at least 6+Int. Then again, I give Rogues 14+Int myself so I can easily afford 10+Int for Swashbucklers.

Funny fact: I've never, after my first game, played a non-caster class with less than 6+Int skills in a longstanding campaign (plenty of one-shots and short campaigns, to be sure, but for long campaigns I just can't stand playing an eyeless, earless, graceless, nonathletic dolt who's somehow still literate and speaks two languages; that's never been my character concept and never will).


I guess the other solution is condensing the skill list and making cross-class skills less expensive but 3.5's combination of skills and skill points is just off the whack. Need like 50% less skills (á la Pathfinder) or a massive increase in skill points (my preferred solution; I like taking two different Crafts, some points in Use Rope and all the good stuff).

[Thurbane]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I'll post an update once I know whether the DM is going to allow it. I have to say, alongside the Fighter, the Knight has one of the cr@ppiest skill selections in the game for a base class.

[Hawriel]

Do you think giving the Knight 4 skill points per level and the Aristocrat’s skill list would make much difference to it’s playability and/or power? I’m considering playing a Knight in an upcoming game, and was thinking of approaching the DM to see if he’ll let me have the skills of an Aristocrat (NPC class).

Not a problem. Standard house rule for my group is that fighters and fighter types get 4 skill points with affew skills added as class skills. This is basicly the same thing.

[Human Paragon 3]

This thread is basically over, but I thought I'd take a moment to say how much I love Pathfinder skills. Let me count the ways:

1) Consolidated skill list makes more sense and boost every class by giving them more bang for the SP buck.

2) Classes have better skill lists. Fighter even gets knowledges now!

3) Favored class mechanic gives you another skill point each level if you want it.

4) Max ranks = level. So much easier to deal with.

5) Cross class skills cost 1, but you get a flat bonus for taking in-class skill ranks, so you are encouraged to be good at what you are good at, but getting esoteric skills is a lot easier.

I am playing a weird character right now. He belongs to an order of rangers called the Willowbank Order, who have sworn to protect civilization from floods. They build and maintain levies, dams and the like and make sure people stay safe when the waters rise. He is a human with 16 int, so I get 11 skill points per level for all the knowledge and survival skills I need! It's so fun to be an all-arounder. I am useful in every situation, despite having a 10 STR, 12 CON 14 DEX as a Fighter/Ranger multiclass.

[Tyndmyr]

Do you think giving the Knight 4 skill points per level and the Aristocrat’s skill list would make much difference to it’s playability and/or power? I’m considering playing a Knight in an upcoming game, and was thinking of approaching the DM to see if he’ll let me have the skills of an Aristocrat (NPC class).

Frankly, no. Not even a little.

It might be nice for the player to actually have a couple things to do, but having two more skills in a mediocre list trained is not much of a power difference.

[Telonius]

I'd almost be in agreement with this. There are three skills on the Aristocrat list that don't sound very knight-ly to me: Appraise, Disguise and Forgery. I'd replace them with Balance (not easily knocked over), Craft (needs to be able to repair his own sword), and Jump (cruel to leap-attackers otherwise).

[Coidzor]

Wait. Knights got an exception to Craft is a class skill for everyone clause? :smalleek:

[Zaq]

Wait. Knights got an exception to Craft is a class skill for everyone clause? :smalleek:

The designers were kind of inconsistent about who didn't get Craft and Profession. There are plenty of classes out there who don't get either. It's really weird when you notice it. Normally people just don't even look for them on their character's skill list, but sometimes . . .

Anyway, yeah, the Knight's as-written skill list is shameful. The Incarnate's is worse, I think, but they're intentionally made to not NEED it.

[Cieyrin]

Anyway, yeah, the Knight's as-written skill list is shameful. The Incarnate's is worse, I think, but they're intentionally made to not NEED it.

But...but...I need my ranks in Craft(Basketweaving)! It's the lynchpin of Incarnum build! :smalleek:

[Frosty]

In a PF campaign, would a Cavalier with the Honor Guard archetype and choosing Order of the Dragon be a good Knight replacement? Being able to grant a +4 bonus to AC to an adjacent ally as an AoO at level THREE sounds like a really sweet deal, and you don't even need a shield to do it! The bonus only goes up from there.

[Greenish]

The Incarnate's is worse, I think, but they're intentionally made to not NEED it.Of course, skills wouldn't hurt… I'm thinking of Factotum//Incarnate gestalt, now.

[Zaq]

Incarnates do get Craft. This is actually relevant, since a pretty good PrC for them (Ironsoul Forgemaster) has it as a requirement.

Of the classes in PHB2, only the Beguiler gets Profession, and only the Dragon Shaman gets Craft. Yeah. Chew on that for a minute.

All three base classes in Complete Adventurer get Craft, but none of them get Profession. All three base classes in each of Complete Divine, Complete Arcane, Complete Psionic, and Complete Warrior get both Craft and Profession.

The Binder and Shadowcaster get both Craft and Profession. The Truenamer only gets Craft.

Everything in XPH, MoI, MH, and HoH gets both. DFAs only get Craft, not Profession. Crusaders and Warblades get Craft, but not Profession. Swordsages get both.

There's no consistency that I can find.

[Cieyrin]

Incarnates do get Craft. This is actually relevant, since a pretty good PrC for them (Ironsoul Forgemaster) has it as a requirement.

Of the classes in PHB2, only the Beguiler gets Profession, and only the Dragon Shaman gets Craft. Yeah. Chew on that for a minute.

All three base classes in Complete Adventurer get Craft, but none of them get Profession. All three base classes in each of Complete Divine, Complete Arcane, Complete Psionic, and Complete Warrior get both Craft and Profession.

The Binder and Shadowcaster get both Craft and Profession. The Truenamer only gets Craft.

Everything in XPH, MoI, MH, and HoH gets both. DFAs only get Craft, not Profession. Crusaders and Warblades get Craft, but not Profession. Swordsages get both.

There's no consistency that I can find.

WotC? Consistent? Perish the thought! :smalltongue: