Teir 0.5 (Really?!)

[Kansaschaser]

I've seen a post a long time ago (on here, but I can't seem to find it with a search right now) where someone was talking about the Teir system. Someone said something about a Teir 0.5 character. Is there really such a thing?

I'm assuming it's a Teir 1 class that has been optimized up to a 0.5 with a prestige class, feat, or some other combination I don't know about.

Can someone give me an example of a Teir 0.5 character at level 20? Also, could you explain why it's a 0.5?

[Curious]

An Arcane Swordsage.

[Arundel]

I want to say Psionic Artificer was also above tier 1, but I don't have to experience to explain it.

[Gnaeus]

Druid + Planar Shepherd wildshaping into outsiders to use their Wish SLA's at no cost, projecting bubbles of slow time or other planar traits, while retaining all the brokenness of the typical T1 Druid?

[Kansaschaser]

An Arcane Swordsage.

I've seen the "spellcasting" version of the Swordsage. They didn't seem all that powerful to me since they were limited to Abjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation spells. Unless I'm missing some really awesome spells with a range of personal/touch.


I want to say Psionic Artificer was also above tier 1, but I don't have to experience to explain it.

I didn't know they had a Psionic version of the Artificer. Wouldn't they just follow all the same rules of the Arcane version?


Druid + Planar Shepherd wildshaping into outsiders to use their Wish SLA's at no cost, projecting bubbles of slow time or other planar traits, while retaining all the brokenness of the typical T1 Druid?

Okay, that does sound like a teir 0.5 class. So it is done with a prestige class as I suspected, and not just a base class.

[Gnaeus]

Or a tainted scholar with a taint of 80 or so, treating that 80 as his spellcasting stat, getting bonus feats from it, and ignoring all negative effects from it because he is a necropolitan?

[Hiro Protagonest]

I've seen the "spellcasting" version of the Swordsage. They didn't seem all that powerful to me since they were limited to Abjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation spells. Unless I'm missing some really awesome spells with a range of personal/touch.

That's not a hard and fast rule. It's explicitly stated as a suggestion.

[Tavar]

Well, there are different tier systems. For instance, the Test of Spite's tier list went up to -1, if I'm not mistaken.

But, if you're talking about the more well known one...not entirely sure what classes qualify, but I think the Euridite/Spell-to-Power Eurdite made it into that category.

[Shadow Lord]

Spell to Power Erudite might be Tier 0.5, or is it just Tier 0?

Damn, Ninja'd by Tavar.

[Kansaschaser]

Or a tainted scholar with a taint of 80 or so, treating that 80 as his spellcasting stat, getting bonus feats from it, and ignoring all negative effects from it because he is a necropolitan?

Yikes! :smalleek: Alrighty then. That sounds really bad. There must be a lot more teir 0.5 class combos than I thought since you guys are comming up with them so quickly.


That's not a hard and fast rule. It's explicitly stated as a suggestion.

True. However, I can't see any DM allowing them access to any and all spells. Even if that were true, they have a very limited number of spells known. Their known spells would be much smaller than Sorcerers. Still not sure if this is a teir 0.5.

[Psyren]

I want to say Psionic Artificer was also above tier 1, but I don't have to experience to explain it.

Regular Artificer is T1, but cannot create psionic items. However, due to a rule from MIC, Psionic Artificers get to double-dip:


Many of the items in this book can also be created by a character with the appropriate psionic item creation feat.

For the purpose of meeting item prerequisites, a character who has the Craft Psionic Arms and Armor feat is treated as having Craft Magic Arms and Armor. Likewise, a character who has Craft Universal Item meets the feat prerequisite for items that require Craft Wondrous Item.

If an item includes a spell prerequisite, but the effect of the item does not directly implement that spell, then a psionic power of similar flavor can be substituted. If the item replicates a spell effect, then only the psionic version of that spell or a psionic power that replicates the same effect can be used to satisfy the prerequisite. For example, a character can create a helm of teleportation using psionic teleport as a power prerequisite, or energy burst as a power to create a necklace of fireballs.

The end result is that you have a character that can emulate every psionic power in the game, and on top of that mimic a large number (though by no means all) of the spells.

[Gnaeus]

I've seen the "spellcasting" version of the Swordsage. They didn't seem all that powerful to me since they were limited to Abjuration, Evocation, and Transmutation spells. Unless I'm missing some really awesome spells with a range of personal/touch.



True. However, I can't see any DM allowing them access to any and all spells. Even if that were true, they have a very limited number of spells known. Their known spells would be much smaller than Sorcerers. Still not sure if this is a teir 0.5.

Round 1 Time Stop
Round 2 Shapechange
Round 3 Recover maneuvers
Round 4 Time Stop
Round 5+ do whatever you want, for as long as you want, in the shape of almost anything you want.

[Kansaschaser]

Well, there are different tier systems. For instance, the Test of Spite's tier list went up to -1, if I'm not mistaken.

But, if you're talking about the more well known one...not entirely sure what classes qualify, but I think the Euridite/Spell-to-Power Eurdite made it into that category.

I think I might have seen it in the Test of Spite stuff. I don't remember the chart going down to -1 though, so I'm not too sure.

So, according to the Test of Spite, there are class combos down to -1?

Alright, let me compose myself here......

WHAT!!!! :smallyuk: You've got to be kidding me. There is no such thing as a teir -1 unless you stretch the rules to make Pun-Pun.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Druid. Full casting, melee brute, and a slightly weaker melee brute that doesn't change its CR at all. Get Leadership and get a druid cohort, and both of you take Wild Cohort. When your cohort is high enough level, have it take Leadership and get a druid cohort with Wild Cohort and Leadership, and so on.

[2xMachina]

Just need delayed spell. Or just spam Delayed Blast Fireball.

[Ernir]

I think I might have seen it in the Test of Spite stuff. I don't remember the chart going down to -1 though, so I'm not too sure.

So, according to the Test of Spite, there are class combos down to -1?

Alright, let me compose myself here......

WHAT!!!! :smallyuk: You've got to be kidding me. There is no such thing as a teir -1 unless you stretch the rules to make Pun-Pun.

See here for a summary of the ToS tier system. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6562949&postcount=1136) It does include a -1.



Druid. Full casting, melee brute, and a slightly weaker melee brute that doesn't change its CR at all. Get Leadership and get a druid cohort, and both of you take Wild Cohort. When your cohort is high enough level, have it take Leadership and get a druid cohort with Wild Cohort and Leadership, and so on.

Sounds like Tier one.

The leadership stuff isn't Druid specific.

[Morph Bark]

Pun-Pun is only Tier 0 if you go by the standard Tier system. Tier 1 is "I can break the game in many ways". Tier 0 would be "I can break the game in all ways and I'm not limited by spells per day". This also means that Pun-Pun is the only Tier 0 by that system.


See here for a summary of the ToS tier system. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6562949&postcount=1136) It does include a -1.

I see. The difference here is that JaronK's system is about class tiers. The ToS tiers are bout builds.

This is also why Pun-Pun is above Tier 1. He has transcended classes.

[2xMachina]

Thrallherd? In build free leadership. Slap on StP Erudite for more cheese.

[Drachasor]

Round 1 Time Stop
Round 2 Shapechange
Round 3 Recover maneuvers
Round 4 Time Stop
Round 5+ do whatever you want, for as long as you want, in the shape of almost anything you want.

Tier 2. It lacks the flexibility of a Wizard.

Seriously though, the book doesn't even treat the Arcane Swordsage as anything more than a half-formed idea. I'm surprised people act like it exists properly at all.

[Tavar]

I see. The difference here is that JaronK's system is about class tiers. The ToS tiers are bout builds.
Right. This is very important to remember; just because it's a tier list does not mean it is measuring the same things or calibrated the same way as another tier list. So, it's entirely possible someone lists Wizards as Tier 0. The question you need to ask is, what list is it, what is it measuring, and what is it calibrated by?

[TurkeyBlizzard]

I feel incredibly uninformed... what are these "tiers" you keep referring to?

[mootoall]

Beholder Mage? Illithid Savant? Slaad Brooder?

[CTrees]

I feel incredibly uninformed... what are these "tiers" you keep referring to?

They measure how much a given class can make the DM cry, given an average build.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I feel incredibly uninformed... what are these "tiers" you keep referring to?

It measures how much monks suck and druids rule (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0).

[Morph Bark]

Right. This is very important to remember; just because it's a tier list does not mean it is measuring the same things or calibrated the same way as another tier list. So, it's entirely possible someone lists Wizards as Tier 0. The question you need to ask is, what list is it, what is it measuring, and what is it calibrated by?

Considering that talk of Tiers is usually about classes, plus the fact that JaronK's system is more well-known (I honestly did not know of the ToS until now for one), it can generally be safely assumed that it's usually about that tier system. Exceptions may of course exist.

[stainboy]

I feel incredibly uninformed... what are these "tiers" you keep referring to?

People in this thread are talking about two different tier systems and confusing each other: JaronK's tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) and Doc Roc's Test of Spite tier system. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6562949&postcount=1136)

[Kansaschaser]

People in this thread are talking about two different tier systems and confusing each other: JaronK's tier system (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1002.0) and Doc Roc's Test of Spite tier system. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6562949&postcount=1136)

You are probably right. I don't tink I was talking about the Test of Spite teir system. I was talking about JaronK's teir system. That's why I was curious about a supposed teir 0.5. It just sounds like a super optimized teir 1 class using infinite combos or specific prestige classes.

[Eldariel]

WHAT!!!! :smallyuk: You've got to be kidding me. There is no such thing as a teir -1 unless you stretch the rules to make Pun-Pun.

By Test of Spite Tiers:

Pun-Pun = Tier -2. It's omnipotent, there's no way to challenge it no matter what anyone does and it can defeat anything else by simply willing it to be done.

Tier -1 = Unbeatable build; something that, quite simply, wins every time.

Tier 0 = "Effectively" unbeatable build. Basically, you need Tier -1 or higher level power build to beat it.

Tier 0.5 = Build that can only be beaten via. extremely specific preparation. See e.g. Initiate of Mystra Dweomerkeeper persisting immortality buffs as Supernatural Spells.

Tier 1 = Being able to defeat most encounters in a round while having unbelievable defenses. This would be run of the mill Wizard played to its potential.

[Big Fau]

There is no such thing as a teir -1 unless you stretch the rules to make Pun-Pun.

The strange thing is you don't have to stretch the rules to make Pun-Pun. It is entirely legal, just insanely overpowered and should never be used. Pun-Pun is an example of why RAW arguments do not work.

There's literally no room to misinterpret his abilities: Everything is spelled out and perfectly clear. The only thing that can prevent his ascension (barring the Omnificer) is the DM intentionally screwing with the first Wish granted by Pazuzu.

[Kansaschaser]

The strange thing is you don't have to stretch the rules to make Pun-Pun. It is entirely legal, just insanely overpowered and should never be used. Pun-Pun is an example of why RAW arguments do not work.

There's literally no room to misinterpret his abilities: Everything is spelled out and perfectly clear. The only thing that can prevent his ascension (barring the Omnificer) is the DM intentionally screwing with the first Wish granted by Pazuzu.

I've seen the creation process for Pun-Pun and there are several things I saw that don't follow RAW. I think the person that created Pun-Pun used a very loose interpritation of RAW to create.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I've seen the creation process for Pun-Pun and there are several things I saw that don't follow RAW. I think the person that created Pun-Pun used a very loose interpritation of RAW to create.

Are you talking about the 5 level version or 1 level version?

[mootoall]

What is unambiguous about Manipulate Form? That's the only thing you need to make it work.

[Drachasor]

I've seen the creation process for Pun-Pun and there are several things I saw that don't follow RAW. I think the person that created Pun-Pun used a very loose interpritation of RAW to create.

It was all RAW from what I remember. However, there are many places where a DM would stop it from working because the RAW is obviously leading to broken things.

[Gnaeus]

Are you talking about the 5 level version or 1 level version?

Or the 12 level version. There are a number of different builds that all use basically the same trick to get to the same place.

[Wings of Peace]

An Eidetic Wizard 1/StP Erudite 3/Cerebremancer 7/Mind Mage 10.

[Xtomjames]

I think I know of a way to make a -1 Tier spellcaster.

19 levels of Wizard 1 level of Arcane Swordsage.

Swap out maneuvers for Greater Spell Fusion, Time Stop, Permanency, Regeneration, Greater Teleport, and Greater Dispel Magic. Take braided spell, twin spell, Repeat Spelll, persistent spell, and Echo Spell (metamagic feats) Adaptive Style.

You can now supremely break the game. Using Spell Fusion as a maneuver it becomes a Supernatural ability swift or immediate action. You can now cast spells using the maneuver without taking up spell slots. Further, you can apply metamagic feats without taking up spell slots.

Use time stop as a maneuver, use the extra time to buff yourself (Blindsight, Tremorsense, Mage Armor, Shadow Armor, etc), with each one use Permanency as a maneuver making them all permanent affects. Use Spell Fusion to cast Level 7 or lower spells against enemies (like Disintegrate) and you can use the metamagic feats to cast more than one and get unlimited threaded repeats of a spell cast with Echo and Repeat spell.

**

You can do a straight up Swordsage, trade your maneuvers for: Time Stop, True Strike, Regeneration, Greater Mage Armor, Greater Invisibility, Blindsight, Tremorsense, Shadow Armor, and Greater Dispel Magic. Take Adaptive Style, Quick Draw, Various stances and general maneuvers as you see fit, use the rest of your feats to gain more maneuvers readied at one time.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think I know of a way to make a -1 Tier spellcaster.

19 levels of Wizard 1 level of Arcane Swordsage.

Swap out maneuvers for Greater Spell Fusion, Time Stop, Permanency, Regeneration, Greater Teleport, and Greater Dispel Magic. Take braided spell, twin spell, Repeat Spelll, persistent spell, and Echo Spell (metamagic feats) Adaptive Style.

You can now supremely break the game. Using Spell Fusion as a maneuver it becomes a Supernatural ability swift or immediate action. You can now cast spells using the maneuver without taking up spell slots. Further, you can apply metamagic feats without taking up spell slots.

Use time stop as a maneuver, use the extra time to buff yourself (Blindsight, Tremorsense, Mage Armor, Shadow Armor, etc), with each one use Permanency as a maneuver making them all permanent affects. Use Spell Fusion to cast Level 7 or lower spells against enemies (like Disintegrate) and you can use the metamagic feats to cast more than one and get unlimited threaded repeats of a spell cast with Echo and Repeat spell.

**

You can do a straight up Swordsage, trade your maneuvers for: Time Stop, True Strike, Regeneration, Greater Mage Armor, Greater Invisibility, Blindsight, Tremorsense, Shadow Armor, and Greater Dispel Magic. Take Adaptive Style, Quick Draw, Various stances and general maneuvers as you see fit, use the rest of your feats to gain more maneuvers readied at one time.

Doesn't work. A crusader 19/warblade 1 doesn't have a warblade IL of 20. Your caster level for swordsage is 10.

[SlashRunner]

I think I know of a way to make a -1 Tier spellcaster.

19 levels of Wizard 1 level of Arcane Swordsage.

Swap out maneuvers for Greater Spell Fusion, Time Stop, Permanency, Regeneration, Greater Teleport, and Greater Dispel Magic. Take braided spell, twin spell, Repeat Spelll, persistent spell, and Echo Spell (metamagic feats) Adaptive Style.

You can now supremely break the game. Using Spell Fusion as a maneuver it becomes a Supernatural ability swift or immediate action. You can now cast spells using the maneuver without taking up spell slots. Further, you can apply metamagic feats without taking up spell slots.

Use time stop as a maneuver, use the extra time to buff yourself (Blindsight, Tremorsense, Mage Armor, Shadow Armor, etc), with each one use Permanency as a maneuver making them all permanent affects. Use Spell Fusion to cast Level 7 or lower spells against enemies (like Disintegrate) and you can use the metamagic feats to cast more than one and get unlimited threaded repeats of a spell cast with Echo and Repeat spell.

**

You can do a straight up Swordsage, trade your maneuvers for: Time Stop, True Strike, Regeneration, Greater Mage Armor, Greater Invisibility, Blindsight, Tremorsense, Shadow Armor, and Greater Dispel Magic. Take Adaptive Style, Quick Draw, Various stances and general maneuvers as you see fit, use the rest of your feats to gain more maneuvers readied at one time.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm
Permanency has very specific guidelines as to what can be made permanent. None of the spells you want to permanency are allowed.

[Silva Stormrage]

Doesn't work. A crusader 19/warblade 1 doesn't have a warblade IL of 20. Your caster level for swordsage is 10.

Wait really? I always thought it did.

What would the IL be of a crusader 10 fighter 4 sword sage 6?
Crusader's IL = 12?
Sword Sage IL = 8?

[Morph Bark]

Wait really? I always thought it did.

What would the IL be of a crusader 10 fighter 4 sword sage 6?
Crusader's IL = 12?
Sword Sage IL = 8?

Crusader IL = 15
Swordsage IL = 13

[Silva Stormrage]

Crusader IL = 15
Swordsage IL = 13

Ah okay so the other initiator classes are treated as half for the others thanks that makes sense :smallsmile:.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Ah okay so the other initiator classes are treated as half for the others thanks that makes sense :smallsmile:.

All other classes except for PrCs that add maneuvers and stances add half to your IL. It doesn't have to be an initiator class.

[Ekul]

Really, all you need to know is that any arcane swordsage with timestop, permanency and Prismatic Wall can permanently cover the entire planet in Prismatic Wall at no cost in no time at all, and everybody who isn't him dies or is planeshifted before long. Anything that remains probably has spell immunity or really high spell resistance or something- and need I remind you that an Arcane Swordsage can also temporarily grant himself any maneuver he has the prerequisites for with Heroics, up to three times- so he can still probably fight the beasts that are left with no problem

[Drachasor]

Really, all you need to know is that any arcane swordsage ...

It's easy to say a made-up class is broken.

[Arundel]

I think I know of a way to make a -1 Tier spellcaster.

19 levels of Wizard 1 level of Arcane Swordsage.

Swap out maneuvers for Greater Spell Fusion, Time Stop, Permanency, Regeneration, Greater Teleport, and Greater Dispel Magic. Take braided spell, twin spell, Repeat Spelll, persistent spell, and Echo Spell (metamagic feats) Adaptive Style.

You can now supremely break the game. Using Spell Fusion as a maneuver it becomes a Supernatural ability swift or immediate action. You can now cast spells using the maneuver without taking up spell slots. Further, you can apply metamagic feats without taking up spell slots.

Use time stop as a maneuver, use the extra time to buff yourself (Blindsight, Tremorsense, Mage Armor, Shadow Armor, etc), with each one use Permanency as a maneuver making them all permanent affects. Use Spell Fusion to cast Level 7 or lower spells against enemies (like Disintegrate) and you can use the metamagic feats to cast more than one and get unlimited threaded repeats of a spell cast with Echo and Repeat spell.

**

You can do a straight up Swordsage, trade your maneuvers for: Time Stop, True Strike, Regeneration, Greater Mage Armor, Greater Invisibility, Blindsight, Tremorsense, Shadow Armor, and Greater Dispel Magic. Take Adaptive Style, Quick Draw, Various stances and general maneuvers as you see fit, use the rest of your feats to gain more maneuvers readied at one time.

Even if this worked (and the TOB veterans say nay) a wizard19/* supremely breaks the game. Heck, even a wizard19/truenamer1 or a wizard19/CWSamurai1 breaks the game.

Have we determined what system we are talking about yet? People keep submitting builds when I thought we were talking about class tier system as proposed by Master Jaron K.

[Morph Bark]

It's easy to say a made-up class is broken.

Commoners are broken.

What? All classes are made-up.

[Ekul]

It's easy to say a made-up class is broken.
The arcane swordsage may be a thought experiment- but it's a thought experiment that the Wizards staff explicitly mentioned in their books.

And since they did not suggest any counterbalance, what they suggested is broken.

[Drachasor]

The arcane swordsage may be a thought experiment- but it's a thought experiment that the Wizards staff explicitly mentioned in their books.

And since they did not suggest any counterbalance, what they suggested is broken.

It's an idea for a class at best. There's no reasonable way to read the "adaption" section for the Swordsage and think the Arcane Swordsage is remotely fleshed out.

Yet some people still act like a half-formed idea is somehow a real class. It's sillier than Pun-pun, who at least follows the rules.

[Shadow Lord]

Commoners are broken.

What? All classes are made-up.

I see what you did there! And you're correct! Commoners are the most broken thing in the entire game of D&D! They shouldn't ever be allowed in games, with all their brokenness!

[Hiro Protagonest]

I see what you did there! And you're correct! Commoners are the most broken thing in the entire game of D&D! They shouldn't ever be allowed in games, with all their brokenness!

Yeah! They have Handle Animal AND Craft (Underwater Basketweaving)!

[Xtomjames]

Doesn't work. A crusader 19/warblade 1 doesn't have a warblade IL of 20. Your caster level for swordsage is 10.

Except for Time Stop, the rest are available as maneuvers still. Permanency can be applied to any spell, it's up to the DM to decide. More importantly an Arcane Swordsage stacks his caster level with other Arcane caster levels, so the character's total caster level is 20. If we really wanted to we could go to Wizard 14 take 6 levels of Arcane Swordsage givng the sword sage a level 13 caster.

Doing this build as a gestalt character construction would be more suitable though.

[Wings of Peace]

I see what you did there! And you're correct! Commoners are the most broken thing in the entire game of D&D! They shouldn't ever be allowed in games, with all their brokenness!

This is why whenever my Wizards see a commoner they light them on fire.

[Ekul]

It's an idea for a class at best. There's no reasonable way to read the "adaption" section for the Swordsage and think the Arcane Swordsage is remotely fleshed out.

Yet some people still act like a half-formed idea is somehow a real class. It's sillier than Pun-pun, who at least follows the rules.

I'm not disagreeing with you- I'm merely pointing out that if you interpret the variant as a rule, which many people have, you can do some hilariously broken things.

If what they suggested had not been broken, people would more strongly argue that it was a complete class even despite the small amount of explanation they gave it.

[Shadow Lord]

Yeah! They have Handle Animal AND Craft (Underwater Basketweaving)!

That's nothing! They actually get Craft (Horrible Mental Picture), too! It's terrible!

[Kansaschaser]

Are you talking about the 5 level version or 1 level version?


Or the 12 level version. There are a number of different builds that all use basically the same trick to get to the same place.

All of them don't work. Using the trick to get your stats up to unimaginable levels does not work for one, and I think it's strange that people think it works.

[Shadow Lord]

All of them don't work. Using the trick to get your stats up to unimaginable levels does not work for one, and I think it's strange that people think it works.

Incorrect. It does in fact work as written.

[Abies]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm
Permanency has very specific guidelines as to what can be made permanent. None of the spells you want to permanency are allowed.

There is no logical or rational reason to interpret the list of spells provided in the published rules for Permanancy as all-inclusive.

The fact that one can do "XYZ" in no way indicates that "XYZ" is/are the only option/s.

[Kansaschaser]

Incorrect. It does in fact work as written.

Sure, as long as you "bend" the RAW rules just a little.

[Hiro Protagonest]

All of them don't work. Using the trick to get your stats up to unimaginable levels does not work for one, and I think it's strange that people think it works.

It's not intended to work. But it does. That's why there's a difference between RAW and RAI.

[Drachasor]

I'm not disagreeing with you- I'm merely pointing out that if you interpret the variant as a rule, which many people have, you can do some hilariously broken things.

If what they suggested had not been broken, people would more strongly argue that it was a complete class even despite the small amount of explanation they gave it.

Yeah, if you interpret something that goes along the lines as "here's an idea and maybe you can do this or that with it." as a rule....it's insane. It doesn't even qualify as a proper optional rule.

This is a personal pet peeve of mine.

See, they don't even suggest one thing. They have an idea, and then have some vague idea about maybe putting some restrictions on it (or maybe not or maybe you should do something else). None of it is firm. Now, if there was something there that was balanced, then people advocating that idea as balanced would be fine, imho. That wouldn't make it an official variant though, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be a balanced one.

[Shadow Lord]

There is no logical or rational reason to interpret the list of spells provided in the published rules for Permanancy as all-inclusive.

The fact that one can do "XYZ" in no way indicates that "XYZ" is/are the only option/s.

Read the following, sir.


You can make the following spells permanent in regard to yourself.

Nowhere does it state that there are other spells that can be made permanent; therefore, there are not.


Sure, as long as you "bend" the RAW rules just a little.

I'm sorry, sir, but it does not involve bending the RAW rules in the slightest; it is a purely functional build that works, following RAW to the letter.

[Tavar]

I'm sorry, sir, but it does not involve bending the RAW rules in the slightest; it is a purely functional build that works, following RAW to the letter.

In fact, bending Raw even a little is a way to make the build not work.

[Kansaschaser]

I'm sorry, sir, but it does not involve bending the RAW rules in the slightest; it is a purely functional build that works, following RAW to the letter.

Maybe the version I saw was not the one you saw. :smallmad:

In one of the steps, Pun-Pun turned his familiar into a Giant, then copied the stats of the giant to himself. According to the rules on magic, you wouldn't copy the "enhanced" stats. You would copy the base stats of the creature. Copying the enhanced stats is like copying the stats of some that was wearing a magic item that gave an enhancement bonus.

[Arundel]

Except for Time Stop, the rest are available as maneuvers still. Permanency can be applied to any spell, it's up to the DM to decide. More importantly an Arcane Swordsage stacks his caster level with other Arcane caster levels, so the character's total caster level is 20. If we really wanted to we could go to Wizard 14 take 6 levels of Arcane Swordsage givng the sword sage a level 13 caster.

Doing this build as a gestalt character construction would be more suitable though.

After yet another arcane swordsage post, I went and looked up the relevant text (I never remember reading it the first time through).

Are you kidding me? People are basing an entire alternate class on a whimsically written pair of sentences? Which is prefaced by "in general". I have just as much evidence to say he can turn his blade into a unicorn that tap dances animals to death while whistling dixie. I-

I just had the most fabulous idea for a themed summoner.

[Drachasor]

Maybe the version I saw was not the one you saw. :smallmad:

In one of the steps, Pun-Pun turned his familiar into a Giant, then copied the stats of the giant to himself. According to the rules on magic, you wouldn't copy the "enhanced" stats. You would copy the base stats of the creature. Copying the enhanced stats is like copying the stats of some that was wearing a magic item that gave an enhancement bonus.

Polymorphing into a giant doesn't give you +X strength, it CHANGES your strength score.

[Shadow Lord]

Maybe the version I saw was not the one you saw. :smallmad:

In one of the steps, Pun-Pun turned his familiar into a Giant, then copied the stats of the giant to himself. According to the rules on magic, you wouldn't copy the "enhanced" stats. You would copy the base stats of the creature. Copying the enhanced stats is like copying the stats of some that was wearing a magic item that gave an enhancement bonus.

Oh, I get what you're not realizing; it's a size bonus that allows it to be made permanent, if it was an Enhancement bonus, then I believe that you would be correct. Instead, it's a size bonus, which can be made permanent using Manipulate Form. A more experienced optimizer could probably give you a better answer, but I believe that you were just misinformed.

[Kansaschaser]

Polymorphing into a giant doesn't give you +X strength, it CHANGES your strength score.

It's still magical. You would put that into the Temporary Score box on your character sheet, not your original score. It just happens to be untyped, so it stacks, that's the only difference.

[Drachasor]

It's still magical. You would put that into the Temporary Score box on your character sheet, not your original score. It just happens to be untyped, so it stacks, that's the only difference.

You are making a distinction where the rules do not.

[mootoall]

... No ... Please read Enlarge Person. You gain that +2 to strength, as a result of changing size. It actually changes your base strength.

[Hiro Protagonest]

It's still magical. You would put that into the Temporary Score box on your character sheet, not your original score. It just happens to be untyped, so it stacks, that's the only difference.

That doesn't mean it's an enhancement bonus.

[Arundel]

From the PHB


The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form

Enhancement (or any bonus) means they change your scores. Reading the text of polymorph, it tells us that you get a new score. It is as if you rerolled your score and have a totally new and unrelated score.

[Shadow Lord]

Here's what you want, and it explains why it works.

Ability Scores: Pun-Pun grants himeslf the Wu-Jen spell Giant Size as a spell-like ability at-will. He casts it on his familiar through the Share Spells ability. This increases the viper to colossal size, granting the viper a +32 size bonus to strength. For the average tiny viper, that means his sterngth score went from 4 to 36. Using the Manipulate Form ability, the viper then increases Pun-Pun's strength score permanently, up to a maximum of 36 (the viper's own strength score). This is not a size bonus to strength. The viper is using the ability of Manipulate Form to increase and decrease a creature's ability score. No bonus is being given. Pun-Pun's base strength score, with no bonuses of any sort, is now 36. Pun-Pun dismisses the spell effect on the familiar and it goes back down to tiny size. The familiar's strength score goes back to 4. Pun-Pun uses Giant Size on himself, growing to colossal size and gaining a +32 size bonus to strength. His strength score is now 68. Pun-Pun uses the Manipulate Form ability to directly increase his familiar's strength score up to 68. Again, this isn't a size bonus that he is giving the familiar, he is actually increasing the base score to match his own. Pun-Pun dismisses his Giant Size effect, and he goes back to a small size with strength 36. The viper is still tiny size, with strength 68 now. The viper repeats the process of growing to colossal size and increasing Pun-Pun's strength score. Pun-Pun does the same. This process is repeated until Pun-Pun decides he is satisfied with his current strength score.
1. Cast Giant Size on familiar. Familiar becomes colossal and gains +32 size bonus to strength, giving the viper a total strength score of 36.
2. The viper uses Manipulate Form to increase Pun-Pun's strength score up to a maximum equal to the viper's strength score. In this case, 36. (This is not a bonus of any kind, he is augmenting Pun-Pun's original strength score.)
3. Pun-Pun dismisses the Giant Size effect on the viper. The viper goes back down to tiny size and 4 strength.
4. Pun-Pun casts Giant Size on himself. His strength score is 36 from step 2, now he goes colossal and gains a +32 size bonus to strength. His strength is 68.
5. Pun-Pun uses Manipulate Form to increase the strength of his tiny viper familiar. To match Pun-Pun's strength score, the viper's strength score is permanently increased from 4 to 68.
6. Pun-Pun dismisses the Giant Size effect on himself. He goes back to small size and 36 strength.
7. Pun-Pun casts Giant Size on his familiar. The viper becomes colossal and goes from 68 strength to 100 strength.
8. The viper uses Manipulate Form to permanently increase Pun-Pun's strength to 100.
9. Repeat process.

[tyckspoon]

From the PHB



Enhancement (or any bonus) means they change your scores. Reading the text of polymorph, it tells us that you get a new score. It is as if you rerolled your score and have a totally new and unrelated score.

It doesn't actually matter. Your score is your score; how you came by that score- whether it's your native score or modified with bonuses from magic or items- doesn't matter unless something specifically calls out the difference (such as how a Headband of Intellect specifies that it does not affect skill points.) It's the same misunderstanding as when people claim that the RAW says you can't qualify for feats or prestige classes with items. You won't actually find language stating that anywhere in the books.

[mootoall]

What was that quote again? "These people spent thousands of hours digging through books, without food, drink or sex, to figure this out. You have not just found the one thing that proves them wrong."

[Ekul]

Are you kidding me?
Yes, the class is a joke after all. That's why it's fun to experiment with it.

And you CAN actually do what you've said- Polymorph-Any-Object+Dominate Monster :smallbiggrin:

[Abies]

Read the following, sir.
{RULES}
Nowhere does it state that there are other spells that can be made permanent; therefore, there are not.

Nowhere does it state other spells can not be made permanent. Again, no rational or logical reason to believe otherwise.

The "Logic" you utilise forbids the use of anything but the DMG and PHB. If that is the ruleset you are comfortable with, so be it. Others are less restrictive.

[Drachasor]

Nowhere does it state other spells can not be made permanent. Again, no rational or logical reason to believe otherwise.

The "Logic" you utilise forbids the use of anything but the DMG and PHB. If that is the ruleset you are comfortable with, so be it. Others are less restrictive.

Permanency explicitly states what spells it works on and how much experience each spell costs. You can't use it on anything else by RAW. A DM might come up with house rules to allow other spells and have their costs listed, but that's a house rule and not RAW.

[wuwuwu]

Nowhere does it state other spells can not be made permanent. Again, no rational or logical reason to believe otherwise.

The "Logic" you utilise forbids the use of anything but the DMG and PHB. If that is the ruleset you are comfortable with, so be it. Others are less restrictive.

It states that only certain spells may be made permanent using the spell, then gives a list of spells, which it says can be made permanent. Even if you use the list as guidelines, it would cost an ungodly amount of XP and require an insane minimum caster level to make those buffs mentioned permanent. It also doesn't give any form of formula (although one may be reverse engineer-able) so that's just a pain in the neck.

So, how much XP do you think it costs to make Time Stop permanent?

[Hiro Protagonest]

It states that only certain spells may be made permanent using the spell, then gives a list of spells, which it says can be made permanent. Even if you use the list as guidelines, it would cost an ungodly amount of XP and require an insane minimum caster level to make those buffs mentioned permanent. It also doesn't give any form of formula (although one may be reverse engineer-able) so that's just a pain in the neck.

So, how much XP do you think it costs to make Time Stop permanent?

The abuse is that they count as Su abilities. No XP cost.

[wuwuwu]

Well then, Permanency flat out doesn't work for this by RAW. It only makes spells permanent, without DM deciding it doesn't.

[Drachasor]

The abuse is that they count as Su abilities. No XP cost.

Indefinite Time Stop would be pretty awesome in a more technological campaign if you are immortal. You get ambushed, cast time stop, build a tank from scratch and place explosives everywhere, and a year or two after the time stop starts, you end it (well, with fabricate it would be a lot quicker than that).

Of course, it is impossibly by RAW (well, excluding pun-pun like antics).

[Arundel]

Permanency also gives very clear guidelines for using any of the non listed spells in conjunction with permanency. The PHB basically says the list can only be expanded by DM fiat, which the player can only know by researching and failing.

[Lord.Sorasen]

Tier 1 is breaking the game in many ways, right? So I'd say by that definition, tier .5 would be destroying the game irredeemably. It's the only thing I can really see as being higher. Therefor tier 0.5 would include such classes as a player losing his character sheet (even a one level dip can eliminate a level 20 wizard from the game!), pizza showing up, inter-table break-up, and "Hey guys I have an idea let's try a serious campaign".

[Dusk Eclipse]

The level 1 version of Pun-pun is completely RAW legal and foll proof, if you go LG paladin (FCI states that Pazuzu doesn't bend Paladin wishes so they will call him later) :smalltongue:

[Silva Stormrage]

The level 1 version of Pun-pun is completely RAW legal and foll proof, if you go LG paladin (FCI states that Pazuzu doesn't bend Paladin wishes so they will call him later) :smalltongue:

What were they thinking when they made that anyway? I mean most blackguards start out as paladin... If I was a blackguard right before I fell I would just summon pazuzu 2 times and get a free six wishes before advancing into blackguard...

[Hazzardevil]

Regular Artificer is T1, but cannot create psionic items. However, due to a rule from MIC, Psionic Artificers get to double-dip:

What does that mean?


By RAW I think a psionic artificer can emulate arcane, divine or psionic spells.
I'm told there's something in dragon that lets you turn divine spells into powers.
[QUOTE=Gnaeus;11668132]Or a tainted scholar with a taint of 80 or so, treating that 80 as his spellcasting stat, getting bonus feats from it, and ignoring all negative effects from it because he is a necropolitan?

I thought you couldn't do that because you lose 1 con and 1 wis for every taint point. So you'd die after 20 taint points or so.

[molten_dragon]

As others have said, it really depends on how you're ranking your tiers. If you use JaronK's tier system (which is the most common) paired with Suzerain's PrC tier system (which is the only one for PrC's that I know if) you can get tier results between 8 and -1. And this is ignoring obviously broken cheese like Pun Pun.

Using this system, an example of a tier -1 class would be a wizard/shadowcraft mage who uses metamagic reducers and earth spell to mimic spells using a spell slot one level lower than the level of the spell being mimicked.

[McQ]

I know the Teir system can be important for balance in a party and discerning a more reliable method of determining a character's power beyond their simple ECL or CR.

However, is there a level of expertise as a player needed to merit using this system as a DM? I'm working with beginner initially, and am doubtful any have figured out any loop holes or exploits, nor have I had to make elaborate configurations of classes to pose more a challenge. Seems if I just stick to picking classes and PrCs based on fluff and mild mechanics, I'll do well.

Is there a level at which I should consider paying more attention to Teirs? 10? 15? Should I be concerned that at some point one character will be overpowered compared to another?

[Gnaeus]

I thought you couldn't do that because you lose 1 con and 1 wis for every taint point. So you'd die after 20 taint points or so.

Evil Subtype and undead are immune to "any negative effects from taint" "they take no penalties due to these taint scores".



Is there a level at which I should consider paying more attention to Teirs? 10? 15? Should I be concerned that at some point one character will be overpowered compared to another?

Any druid who realizes that having his animal companion fight is good, is much stronger than any fighter or monk of relatively equal optimization level, starting at level 1, with the difference in power increasing rapidly by level 6..

[darksolitaire]

As others have said, it really depends on how you're ranking your tiers. If you use JaronK's tier system (which is the most common) paired with Suzerain's PrC tier system (which is the only one for PrC's that I know if) you can get tier results between 8 and -1. And this is ignoring obviously broken cheese like Pun Pun.

Using this system, an example of a tier -1 class would be a wizard/shadowcraft mage who uses metamagic reducers and earth spell to mimic spells using a spell slot one level lower than the level of the spell being mimicked.

What tier would Wizard/Shadowcraft Mage/Incantatrix be? -1, -2 or -3?

[mootoall]

Paladins can't do Pun-Pun without Sword of the Arcane Order or something. You need a familiar to pull it off. Lightning Warrior = underpowered.

[dextercorvia]

I thought you couldn't do that because you lose 1 con and 1 wis for every taint point. So you'd die after 20 taint points or so.

HoH has updated the Taint rules. That isn't in there any longer.

[Psyren]

What does that mean?

It means that while regular artificers are restricted only to magic items, psionic artificers can make both. Therefore, Psionic Artificers are more powerful than their T1 equivalents, because there are several powers that can do things that spells cannot do. (For instance, Metafaculty is the only way pre-epic to remotely detect someone under Mind Blank, Psychic Reformation is the only way to rebuild your character without PHB2 etc..)


By RAW I think a psionic artificer can emulate arcane, divine or psionic spells.
I'm told there's something in dragon that lets you turn divine spells into powers.

If both variants are allowed then yes, the Psionic Artificer can create every item in the game. Even if they aren't, he can simply cooperate with a spellcaster and craft everything anyway.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Paladins can't do Pun-Pun without Sword of the Arcane Order or something. You need a familiar to pull it off. Lightning Warrior = underpowered.

Pazuzu can give up to 6 free no-strings atached wishes to a paladin, more than enough to start a wish loop. (your first wish should be "I want a LE candle of invocation, then gate in an efreeti and wish for a simulacrum of an efreeti... wish loop archieved)

[mootoall]

The wish loop is easy. Anyone can do the wish loop. Pun-Pun's biggest trick, besides Manipulate Form, is arbitrarily high stats through familiar abuse.

[sreservoir]

it doesn't need to be a familiar, just a scaled one of toril that will follow orders unquestioningly. such as a simulacrum.

it'll be slower if you can't share spells, but it's still doable.

and anyway, once you get manipulate form, you just grant yourself a familiar anyway. it's a class feature.

[Arundel]

it doesn't need to be a familiar, just a scaled one of toril that will follow orders unquestioningly. such as a simulacrum.

it'll be slower if you can't share spells, but it's still doable.

and anyway, once you get manipulate form, you just grant yourself a familiar anyway. it's a class feature.

Can you manipulate your own form? I am not TOO familiar with the ability or the source, but I thought it was a cornerstone of the build that the first thing you do is grant manipulate form to your familiar as well.

[mootoall]

I'm pretty sure there was something about sharing spells with your familiar in there.

[tyckspoon]

I'm pretty sure there was something about sharing spells with your familiar in there.

Mostly makes it more efficient, because there are some reaaallly powerful buffs (so they loop up your stats faster) that are either Personal or type-limited such that they can't normally be applied to your helper. The Share Spells feature gets around that, but having the familiar is not required- once you have Manipulate Form yourself, you an use it to turn any random snake/lizard/other qualifying Scaled One into your assistant (find critter, Manipulate Form to make it loyal and obedient to yourself, Manipulate Form to give it a sufficient Int score, Manipulate Form to give it Manipulate Form, proceed with ascension.)


Can you manipulate your own form? I am not TOO familiar with the ability or the source, but I thought it was a cornerstone of the build that the first thing you do is grant manipulate form to your familiar as well.

The only real limits on Manipulate Form are that you can't do it to a Sarrukh, and you can't raise a creature's ability scores past your own. 'course, if you go with the open-ended version where you can write your own abilities, that doesn't really matter; once you have an assistant with Manipulate Form, you just have him grant you a new version of Manipulate Form with those restrictions removed. Still need an assistant for those first few steps, tho.

[Kansaschaser]

Mostly makes it more efficient, because there are some reaaallly powerful buffs (so they loop up your stats faster) that are either Personal or type-limited such that they can't normally be applied to your helper. The Share Spells feature gets around that, but having the familiar is not required- once you have Manipulate Form yourself, you an use it to turn any random snake/lizard/other qualifying Scaled One into your assistant (find critter, Manipulate Form to make it loyal and obedient to yourself, Manipulate Form to give it a sufficient Int score, Manipulate Form to give it Manipulate Form, proceed with ascension.)

I think you also need to remember that this teir 0.5 or 0 class is only available in Forgotten Realms. What if you were playing in other settings, such as Grayhawk, Ebberon, or Ravenloft(shudder)? You wouldn't have access to Manipulate Form then.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think you also need to remember that this teir 0.5 or 0 class is only available in Forgotten Realms. What if you were playing in other settings, such as Grayhawk, Ebberon, or Ravenloft(shudder)? You wouldn't have access to Manipulate Form then.

So you're saying to be an artificer, you have to play in Eberron?

[2xMachina]

Wish: Planeshift to FR.

Proceed with ascension.

[Kansaschaser]

Wish: Planeshift to FR.

Proceed with ascension.

Sorry, but if the setting of the game is not Forgotten Realms, Plane Shift can only take you to an Inner Plane or a Transitive Plane. Not another setting.

You would need to cast "Settingshift". Which has an expensive material cost. Namely, you need to bribe the DM to run his/her game in Forgotten Realms. Even then, it may fail due to your poor real life diplomacy skills.


So you're saying to be an artificer, you have to play in Eberron?

No, I was saying that to have access to the "Manipulte Form" ability, you would need to play in the Forgotten Realms setting since that's where that ability originates from. Pun-Pun is only playable in Forgotten Realms.

He can't be made in a different game setting as far as I know.

As for Artificers, they may be playable in other settings. I guess that would be up to the DM.

[9mm]

I've seen a post a long time ago (on here, but I can't seem to find it with a search right now) where someone was talking about the Teir system. Someone said something about a Teir 0.5 character. Is there really such a thing?

I'm assuming it's a Teir 1 class that has been optimized up to a 0.5 with a prestige class, feat, or some other combination I don't know about.

Can someone give me an example of a Teir 0.5 character at level 20? Also, could you explain why it's a 0.5?

there have been 2 teir systems that have been made: the classic tier 1-5 system everyone is familiar with and the ToS tier system that gauged raw character power that went -2 to 5. so a tier .5 under the ToS system would be an enemy that you needed to be completely ready for, but it's few weaknesses would be either conditional or obscenely difficult to exploit. Think the Cube, which when first built could only be reliably taken down with creative uses of mindrape and loves pain.

[Shadow Lord]

Sorry, but if the setting of the game is not Forgotten Realms, Plane Shift can only take you to an Inner Plane or a Transitive Plane. Not another setting.

You would need to cast "Settingshift". Which has an expensive material cost. Namely, you need to bribe the DM to run his/her game in Forgotten Realms. Even then, it may fail due to your poor real life diplomacy skills.



No, I was saying that to have access to the "Manipulte Form" ability, you would need to play in the Forgotten Realms setting since that's where that ability originates from. Pun-Pun is only playable in Forgotten Realms.

He can't be made in a different game setting as far as I know.

As for Artificers, they may be playable in other settings. I guess that would be up to the DM.

Sir, your remarks are hypocritical; if the Artificer is in the Eberron books, and you say they may be able to be used in other settings, why then can the Sarukkh be used in any setting? Also: Planescape and Spelljammer would both like a word with you, as well as Dragonlance and Greyhawk if you accept some of the stories from Dragon, when it was published under Wizards of the Coast. Namely, the one that had Raistlin, Elminister, and that one guy from Greyhawk having a meeting or some such.

[The Rabbler]

Sorry, but if the setting of the game is not Forgotten Realms, Plane Shift can only take you to an Inner Plane or a Transitive Plane. Not another setting.

You would need to cast "Settingshift". Which has an expensive material cost. Namely, you need to bribe the DM to run his/her game in Forgotten Realms. Even then, it may fail due to your poor real life diplomacy skills.

No, I was saying that to have access to the "Manipulte Form" ability, you would need to play in the Forgotten Realms setting since that's where that ability originates from. Pun-Pun is only playable in Forgotten Realms.

He can't be made in a different game setting as far as I know.

As for Artificers, they may be playable in other settings. I guess that would be up to the DM.

The problem with this argument is that it implies that there's a DM present.

Pun-Pun was originally created as a thought experiment to push the boundaries of TO. It's a build designed to see exactly how far the rules would go and how powerful a single character could get. Pun-Pun was never intended to be used by anyone in any game ever and he was built using a pure RAW interpretation of all of the rules.

In arguments around Pun-Pun, the idea of DM fiat invariably arises and is subsequently ignored because, although Pun-Pun's only real weakness is the DM, Pun-Pun was never intended to be in the same multiverse as a DM. Rule 0 is powerful, but Pun-Pun can't feel it's sting in a setting where DMs aren't present.

In any given campaign, a DM decides what is and is not present in the setting. For the purposes of the thought experiment of Pun-Pun, there's nobody to ban any material and that train of thought amounts to "It doesn't work because a DM wouldn't let it work."

EDIT: Forgot to make my point.

[tyckspoon]

No, I was saying that to have access to the "Manipulte Form" ability, you would need to play in the Forgotten Realms setting since that's where that ability originates from. Pun-Pun is only playable in Forgotten Realms.

He can't be made in a different game setting as far as I know.

As for Artificers, they may be playable in other settings. I guess that would be up to the DM.

Artificers are quite playable in other settings; none of their rules reference Eberron-specific things, like the Action Point rules or dragonmarks. The only problem there is DMs who are of the mindset that "printed in a setting book" is the same thing as "setting specific rule" (in which case all of the Completes, for example, are unusable unless you're playing Greyhawk, because that's the assumed background if none is mentioned.)

Manipulate Form/the Sarrukh is different- it does specifically place Sarrukhs as being important to the mythology of the Forgotten Realms, and the Manipulate Form ability calls out 'Scaled Ones native to Toril', which is meaningless unless you are in fact playing in Forgotten Realms. It invokes the one major exception to D&D's usual "everything can be somewhere" ethos- there is usually only one Prime Material, and some creatures are so linked to the nature of that one Prime that they just don't exist in other versions of it (unless you're playing Spelljammer, in which case all bets are off.)

[hamishspence]

It invokes the one major exception to D&D's usual "everything can be somewhere" ethos- there is usually only one Prime Material, and some creatures are so linked to the nature of that one Prime that they just don't exist in other versions of it (unless you're playing Spelljammer, in which case all bets are off.)

Manual of the Planes does mention the possibility of accessing multiple Prime Materials via the Plane of Shadow.

[Arundel]

Sir, your remarks are hypocritical; if the Artificer is in the Eberron books, and you say they may be able to be used in other settings, why then can the Sarukkh be used in any setting? Also: Planescape and Spelljammer would both like a word with you, as well as Dragonlance and Greyhawk if you accept some of the stories from Dragon, when it was published under Wizards of the Coast. Namely, the one that had Raistlin, Elminister, and that one guy from Greyhawk having a meeting or some such.

Until evidence is produced otherwise, I am running under the assumption that the meeting you described was a WoTC authorized slashfic.

[Kansaschaser]

Sir, your remarks are hypocritical; if the Artificer is in the Eberron books, and you say they may be able to be used in other settings, why then can the Sarukkh be used in any setting? Also: Planescape and Spelljammer would both like a word with you, as well as Dragonlance and Greyhawk if you accept some of the stories from Dragon, when it was published under Wizards of the Coast. Namely, the one that had Raistlin, Elminister, and that one guy from Greyhawk having a meeting or some such.

I don't think I was being hypocritical. If you are playing in a setting that does not allow you to cross setting, then you might not have access to the abilities needed to make Pun-Pun.

I know a great many DM's that paly in their own world that they created. That's what I end up being stuck in most of the time. I consider myself lucky when I get to play in an established setting. If I don't get to play in a setting such as Planescape, Spelljammer, or Forgotten Realms, then I couldn't do the Pun-Pun cheese.

As for the Artificier being available, that would be up to each individual DM. I know some DM's that don't allow the Artificer in their Forgotten Realms settings.


Manual of the Planes does mention the possibility of accessing multiple Prime Materials via the Plane of Shadow.

Yes, but it's only a possibility. Even then, as a DM, I normally make these extra planes just an alternate reality based in the same setting.


The problem with this argument is that it implies that there's a DM present.

Pun-Pun was originally created as a thought experiment to push the boundaries of TO. It's a build designed to see exactly how far the rules would go and how powerful a single character could get. Pun-Pun was never intended to be used by anyone in any game ever and he was built using a pure RAW interpretation of all of the rules.

In arguments around Pun-Pun, the idea of DM fiat invariably arises and is subsequently ignored because, although Pun-Pun's only real weakness is the DM, Pun-Pun was never intended to be in the same multiverse as a DM. Rule 0 is powerful, but Pun-Pun can't feel it's sting in a setting where DMs aren't present.

In any given campaign, a DM decides what is and is not present in the setting. For the purposes of the thought experiment of Pun-Pun, there's nobody to ban any material and that train of thought amounts to "It doesn't work because a DM wouldn't let it work."

EDIT: Forgot to make my point.

You are correct.

However, for this thread, I'd like to see character builds that could be used in any setting, including ones that don't have access to the Manipulate Form ability. It just doesn't exist in every setting, especially player made settings.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I don't think I was being hypocritical. If you are playing in a setting that does not allow you to cross setting, then you might not have access to the abilities needed to make Pun-Pun.

Thank you for your insight sir. I now see it is impossible to play an Artificer outside of Eberron, use an Eternal Wand outside of Eberron, play an Incantrix outside of FR, or play a warblade in any setting that doesn't have the Sunspire mountains. :smallannoyed:

[Shadow Lord]

Thank you for your insight sir. I now see it is impossible to play an Artificer outside of Eberron, use an Eternal Wand outside of Eberron, play an Incantrix outside of FR, or play a warblade in any setting that doesn't have the Sunspire mountains. :smallannoyed:

Unless it's Spelljammer or Planescape :smallannoyed:

[Drachasor]

Thank you for your insight sir. I now see it is impossible to play an Artificer outside of Eberron, use an Eternal Wand outside of Eberron, play an Incantrix outside of FR, or play a warblade in any setting that doesn't have the Sunspire mountains. :smallannoyed:

Technically, it is unless the setting has adaption for it and/or the GM doesn't ok it. Given that it is the same sort of technicalities that let Pun-pun exist to begin with, this seems like a perfectly reasonable comment for someone to make.

[mootoall]

From Planescape or Spelljammer's perspective, *everyone* is playing in that setting. It's just a matter of whether or not they're discovered Sigil/Spelljamming helms! You're always playing with the Lady, you just don't know it yet :smallwink:

[Drachasor]

From Planescape or Spelljammer's perspective, *everyone* is playing in that setting. It's just a matter of whether or not they're discovered Sigil/Spelljamming helms! You're always playing with the Lady, you just don't know it yet :smallwink:

Whether those perspectives are valid is entirely up to the DM.

Spelljammer certainly isn't true by default. Last I checked a given cosmology isn't certain across campaign worlds (Eberron being a great example of that).

[mootoall]

Guess you missed the joking bit of that.

[Graha013]

Druid + Planar Shepherd wildshaping into outsiders to use their Wish SLA's at no cost, projecting bubbles of slow time or other planar traits, while retaining all the brokenness of the typical T1 Druid?

Could you uhm, PM me or something the details on this build? I'm intrigued..

[Shadow Lord]

Spelljammer works in this way, and this is the way in which it works: Every setting ever is in it. Everything that could possibly be a setting is in it. Therefore, everything is in it.

That is all you need to know about the awesomeness of Spelljammer.

[Drachasor]

Spelljammer works in this way, and this is the way in which it works: Every setting ever is in it. Everything that could possibly be a setting is in it. Therefore, everything is in it.

Except Star Wars (or Star Trek).

[Shadow Lord]

Except Star Wars (or Star Trek).

Incorrect. Both Star Wars and Star Trek exist inside the Setting of Spelljammer.

[Drachasor]

Incorrect. Both Star Wars and Star Trek exist inside the Setting of Spelljammer.

I don't see how, the laws of reality aren't right.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Incorrect. Both Star Wars and Star Trek exist inside the Setting of Spelljammer.

Yeah, didn't you see that venerable goblin carrying around the force sword?

[Eldariel]

I don't see how, the laws of reality aren't right.

Spelljammer does that.

[Drachasor]

Yeah, didn't you see that venerable goblin carrying around the force sword?

Hilarious. :smallbiggrin:


Spelljammer does that.

Eh, since there are no Crystal Spheres in Star Trek or Star Wars...they really can't fit into Spelljammer.

[Shadow Lord]

Hilarious. :smallbiggrin:



Eh, since there are no Crystal Spheres in Star Trek or Star Wars...they really can't fit into Spelljammer.

Yes. They can.

[tyckspoon]

Hilarious. :smallbiggrin:



Eh, since there are no Crystal Spheres in Star Trek or Star Wars...they really can't fit into Spelljammer.

It just means they're in *very large* crystal spheres, suitable to contain the range of exploration achieved by the Star * civilizations.

[Shadow Lord]

It just means they're in *very large* crystal spheres, suitable to contain the range of exploration achieved by the Star * civilizations.

Quite. Words

[TroubleBrewing]

"That's no universe... That's a crystal sphere."

[Drachasor]

It just means they're in *very large* crystal spheres, suitable to contain the range of exploration achieved by the Star * civilizations.

A sphere as large as the visible universe is essentially a useless construct.

[Chess435]

Moving on...... could somebody link me to this infamous "Cube" build?

[Kansaschaser]

Moving on...... could somebody link me to this infamous "Cube" build?

Unfortunatly, it's not really a build.

It's just someone that takes the Landlord feat from the Strongholder Builders Guidebook. After you do that, then you spend your wealth on purchasing a small "box" or "cube", with prismatic walls on all sides and you give it the flying property. You then just fly your "cube" into opponents who then have to save 7 different times versus the prismatic walls.

You then just keep doing that until they perish.


Yes. They can.

If you want to state that a Spelljammer ship or a portal from Planescape can enter any game setting, even ones that are not directly related to D&D, then Pun-Pun is no longer the most powerful build.

[sreservoir]

If you want to state that a Spelljammer ship or a portal from Planescape can enter any game setting, even ones that are not directly related to D&D, then Pun-Pun is no longer the most powerful build.

really. because if it's in the setting, pun-pun certainly has the ability to gain every property they have that could be considered an ability.

[Xzeno]

Incorrect. Both Star Wars and Star Trek exist inside the Setting of Spelljammer.

Actually, those don't exist in Spelljammer. Only very similar things that constitute a legitimate work of parody. :smallbiggrin: It's a joke about international copyright law... yeah, I'll go back to lurking...

[molten_dragon]

What tier would Wizard/Shadowcraft Mage/Incantatrix be? -1, -2 or -3?

Beats me. I'd probably guess tier -2 though. It's definitely more effective than just a wizard/SCM, but probably not as much of a jump as straight wizard to wizard/SCM is. I don't think the prestige class tier system works all that well when you're talking about applying more than one prestige class to things though.

[Morph Bark]

Actually, those don't exist in Spelljammer. Only very similar things that constitute a legitimate work of parody. :smallbiggrin: It's a joke about international copyright law... yeah, I'll go back to lurking...


Actually, Star Wars does exist in it as normal. Star Trek only exists as legitimate work of parody. :smallwink: Forgot about Saga Edition, didya?