Wow! Blackguard is terrible even by DMG prc standards!

[deuxhero]

I never really looked at the class beyond the requirements (which were utterly stupid), and wow it's bad. I can understand the thought process that lead to Dwavern Defender (Monsters will attack fixed in place PC with no ranged abilities over squishy team mates) but this?

Even past the requirements (Let's replace hide with intimidate and the feats with "any 3 feats from the Combat Expertise, Power Attack or Mounted Combat trees, including the listed 3") a lot of issues are clear and it wouldn't even be viable by core/SRD melee standards.


Most abilities (smite, spells, command undead) scale with BG level but are based on abilities meant to scale with the level of a base-class.

Poison Use works, but is gained right when poison is no longer that useful. You don't even get an easy poison making method (you don't get any venomous options for your companion!). Assassin gets it at 5 (still in its useable phase), you get it at 9.

Command Undead is done as a level 1 cleric at ECL 9. Your PC race skeleton will uh... hmm... I guess the opponents will need to blow a secondary attack or be flanked I guess.

Spell list is terrible, made up mostly of save based spells that won't work when you get them. Only worthwhile spell here is CLW, and only for use of Wands of CLW if your party lacks someone else to do it (then how did you get to ECL 7?) and possibly freedom of movement. SpC improves this a LOT, but in core... Even then your spells/day are tiny and un-moving. Shameful this is right next to the Assassin (who has a bunch of utility spells useful for his work and better progression).

Smite... OK, it works only slightly less well than the Paladin's (not that it was that good an ability in the first place). Still scales based on BG level.

The one ability that scales with class level is still under-powered by a stupid amount (at ECL 11/12, you get a 6 HD mount with DR Magic, useless at this stage, 5 resistance to cold and fire, not enough to stop even mundane fire, a whimpy smite, and some dinky spell resistance. I guess Dark Vision has its uses). If this creature were expendable (you're Evil after all), it might have some use, but it takes a year or a level up to get back when it quickly dies. Oh and to further add to my "this wasn't really playtested even under WoTC's bad assumptions", I think the SR gained at PC level 19 doesn't work with the SR it has from the fiendish template...

2nd half is barren of any abilities. Dead levels, ho!

In the end it seems only Aura of Despair (And ammusingly, only if you have allies, as you don't have anything of value that gets saving throws), Sneak Attack and Dark Blessing are the only useable abilities here.


Unlike it's companion prcs (Duelist gets Swashbuckler, DD gets DSS), I don't know any class that does its abilities "right". Is there one?

[Morph Bark]

Unlike it's companion prcs (Duelist gets Swashbuckler, DD gets DSS), I don't know any class that does its abilities "right". Is there one?

Hexblade, except it is arcane rather than divine.

[JaronK]

Paladin of Tyranny is the base class version of this, and it does work better. The nice thing is stacking those save debuffs... a Hexblade 4 (Dark Companion ACF)/Blackguard or PoT 3/Binder X that's an Unseelie Fey can really hammer enemy saves down to nothing.

JaronK

[Greenish]

Unlike it's companion prcs (Duelist gets Swashbuckler, DD gets DSS), I don't know any class that does its abilities "right". Is there one?If you're going to fall as a paladin, the best PrC to salvage those levels would probably be Bone Knight.

[deuxhero]

But that would require taking Paladin levels!

[Fox Box Socks]

Yeah, Bone Knight is basically non-terrible Blackguard.

[Greenish]

But that would require taking Paladin levels!No, it doesn't. I'm just saying that if you're a paladin and you fall, that's your best option (short of retraining) of putting the paladin levels to work.

But you can enter Bone Knight without paladin levels.

[Popertop]

Ya, bone knight is better with cleric entry, but that's a whole other issue.

I was never really inspired by blackguard, I really like Oskar's fix.

[Piggy Knowles]

If you start right at level 11, Ex-Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 is a solid option, for a core campaign. (Yeah, yeah, damning it with faint praise.)

At that level, everything you'd get from it is actually better than what you'd have gotten from taking 11 levels as a paladin (yeah, there I go with the faint praise again). So, for the only core way to do "fallen paladin," I guess it makes sense. Your smite is just as good, your mount is as good or better, your spellcasting is better, you get all the same or better class features.

The problem is, that one little sweet spot is brief and fleeting. A regular paladin could continue scaling her abilities; you unfortunately cannot. And if you step even slightly out of core, you'll feel woefully underclassed. Also, it's a pretty impossible place to get to organically - I have never even once played a campaign where such a dramatic shift in the mid-levels like that would have been appropriate. A gradual shift in outlook, sure, but not "11 levels as one extreme and then - BAM! All the way to the other!"

[TroubleBrewing]

Ya, bone knight is better with cleric entry, but that's a whole other issue.

"EVERYTHING is better with Cleric entry" is the other issue, isn't it? :smalltongue:

EDIT:
If you start right at level 11, Ex-Paladin 1/Blackguard 10 is a solid option, for a core campaign.

How are you getting BAB +6, 5 ranks in Hide, and 3 feats (with a non-fighter chassis) at level 1? :smallconfused:

EDIT: Totally forgot about that "evil gods are jerks" part. NVM.

[Greenish]

And if you step even slightly out of core, you'll feel woefully underclassed.Or, well, if you play with other people who've picked some of the core classes. :smalltongue:

[stainboy]

Wow, I'd never noticed it gave you paladin class features without boost to make up for lost scaling.

One big fail you didn't mention is the prereqs. Blackguard is supposed to be what you do when you fall from Paladin, right? But paladins aren't allowed to plan to be blackguards, and how many paladins just happen to have Cleave and Improved Sunder and cross-class ranks in Hide?

[Greenish]

One big fail you didn't mention is the prereqs.Let's take a look at the original post again, shall we?


I never really looked at the class beyond the requirements (which were utterly stupid)…

:smallamused:

[Zherog]

How are you getting BAB +6, 5 ranks in Hide, and 3 feats (with a non-fighter chassis) at level 1? :smallconfused:

EDIT: Totally forgot about that "evil gods are jerks" part. NVM.

Not sure if your edit actually applies to the question, but...

You're not. You're converting your paladin levels into blackguard levels.


Fallen Paladins

Blackguards who have levels in the paladin class (that is to say, are now ex-paladins) gain extra abilities the more levels of paladin they have.

A fallen paladin who becomes a blackguard gains all of the following abilities that apply, according to the number of paladin levels the character has.

1-2: Smite good 1/day. (This is in addition to the ability granted to all blackguards at 2nd level.

3-4: Lay on hands. Once per day, the blackguard can use this supernatural ability to cure himself or his fiendish servant of damage equal to his Charisma bonus x his level.

5-6: Sneak attack damage increased by +1d6. Smite good 2/day.

7-8: Fiendish summoning. Once per day, the blackguard can use a summon monster I spell to call forth an evil creature. For this spell, the caster level is double the blackguard's class level.

9-10: Undead companion. In addition to the fiendish servant, the blackguard gains (at 5th level) a Medium-size skeleton or zombie as a companion. This companion cannot be turned or rebuked and gains all special bonuses as a fiendish servant when the blackguard gains levels. Smite good 3/day.

11 or more: A fallen paladin of this stature immediately gains a blackguard level for each level of paladin he trades in.

The character level of the character does not change. With the loss of paladin levels, the character no longer gains as many extra abilities for being a fallen paladin.

[TroubleBrewing]

Yeah, my edited edit applies to it. I should really learn to read before asking stupid questions.

[Piggy Knowles]

Or, well, if you play with other people who've picked some of the core classes. :smalltongue:

Well yeah. It's still underpowered compared to, say, 11 levels of almost any other core base class. What I mean is that basically every single supplement outside of core gave you a way to play the fallen goody-goody better than Blackguard did, so even the excuse of "it's the only way to properly get across my concept!" stops working.

[TroubleBrewing]

"You can't be a paladin without Paladin levels". I'd love to see someone try that with Blackguard.

"You can't be a blackguard without Blackguard levels."

"Really? All of the Hexblades, evil Warblades, Bone Knights, melee-oriented Ur Priests, Malconvokers, and Paladins of Tyranny would like to have a word with you."

Just to name a few.

[deuxhero]

I was never really inspired by blackguard, I really like Oskar's fix.

Links plz?

[Runestar]

The designers seem to think that 4 lvs of blackguard is a good threshold, netting you that debuff aura, cha to saves, sneak attack +1d6 and few divine spells (I see quite a few monsters statted with blackguard lvs). Pity qualifying for it is so tedious. :smallconfused:

But again, the builds that can take advantage of all these benefits are quite few also. Perhaps dragons?

[deuxhero]

Nope, Dragons get cleric spells added to their list automatically, even though they are physically hardy and some get hide as a class skill.

It's usable, gains proficiencies, the aura of despair, cha to saves (and your cha is very good) and sneak attack make it workable, but compared to advancing, it isn't much.

[Greenish]

Links plz?Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=193554).

[deuxhero]

Hmm... Not really what I was looking for. Feels more like a new class than a fix (and is a base class).


Hmm. Quick and dirty "fix" for Blackguard PRC I'd say is something like...

Requirements: As said in first post, 5 ranks in intimidate instead of hide, any 3 feat from the Power Attack, Combat Expertise or Mounted Combat trees (including the base 3).

Increase skill points to 4/level and add Bluff, Disguise and Move Silently.

Smite and Command undead add half your non-BG levels to the level check.

3rd smite is at level 8 (and Smite is /encounter if such things are applied).

Dead servant is regained after resting.

Add the following ability on a dead level

Implacable Man (EX): You are immune to fatigue, and anything that would cause you to become exhausted makes you fatigued instead. At (2nd formerly dead level) you also become immune to any penalties based on injuries (such as a Wounding weapon) as well.


Add various spells to list (enlarge person? Unholy Sword?), key spells off Cha.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Requirements: As said in first post, 5 ranks in intimidate instead of hide, any 3 feat from the Power Attack, Combat Expertise or Mounted Combat trees (including the base 3).

Intimidate is cross-class.

[deuxhero]

Paladins, if you read the RAW in a way, automatically qualify without feats or skills as is. Intimidate is for non-Paladin entries ANYWAYS (if not, add that to the basic changes).

[gallagher]

if you want, you can qualify with a ranger/paladin build, so you can get hide on your list.

imagine like a ranger 3/pal 2 who commits an evil act and needs to make the most of his levels that are now useless?

i mean its bad, but it isnt pointless

[deuxhero]

Hmm, Ranger/Blackguard if devoted tracker is allowed to work...

[Acanous]

Blackguard's not all bad. You get a Fiendish Servant that works like a mount (Which, by Paladin RAW, should be CR 2-3 levels below you, and scales with your CR, not your class level) some nifty immunities, and if you went Paladin 10 before going blackguard, you get to keep Cha to saves and get some bonus sneak attack dice and smites.

What I'd LIKE to see is "Paladin levels count as blackguard levels for any ability based on class level". That'd be nice.

[deuxhero]

Except that this servant, as mentioned above, has the stats of a disposable minion, but isn't disposable.

Immunity to what? You're still subject to fear and poison. The only thing you are "immune" to is falling.

[Acanous]

Thought you gained poison immunity, but apperently that's only to your own poisons.
waaah waaaah

[Saintheart]

Not sure if your edit actually applies to the question, but...

You're not. You're converting your paladin levels into blackguard levels.

And if you start as a Paladin of Tyranny, by RAW you become Heisenberg Cheeseguard: you can fall and thus become a blackguard, thus picking up all those neat abilities for an ex-paladin, but since as a Paladin of Tyranny you've never committed a good act or disobeyed your code of conduct, so you keep all your paladin of tyranny abilities as well.

[T.G. Oskar]

Hmm... Not really what I was looking for. Feels more like a new class than a fix (and is a base class).

Well yes, it is a base class. Mostly because the Paladin is a base class as well. So yeah, not really intended as a fix, but as a class on its own.

Still; if you're interested, the Prestige Paladin could be combined with the Blackguard and get something interesting out of it. Most people say the Prestige Paladin is pretty good, so the same would be for Blackguard, and gained at a much earlier level.

In fact, seeing this little tidbit...


Hmm. Quick and dirty "fix" for Blackguard PRC I'd say is something like...

Requirements: As said in first post, 5 ranks in intimidate instead of hide, any 3 feat from the Power Attack, Combat Expertise or Mounted Combat trees (including the base 3).

First, the term "blackguard" applied in real life applies to braggarts and undesirables (such as those who insult ladies; while a chivalrous man would respect them, a blackguard would do the opposite). So, they tried to retain that "flavor" by making them part-rogues. Hence, why the sneak attack and the poison use and the need for stuff like Hide.

Still: if you're intending it for Paladin entry (amongst others)...they don't get Intimidate either. Unless you add a fix in which Paladins get Intimidate (I don't see why they can't, since Intimidate is no "evil skill" any more than Bluff is a "chaotic skill" or Diplomacy is a "good skill").

I'd also reduce the access to feats, or add something that allows Paladins easier entry. Any three feats from feat trees, including the base three, will be deadly for a Paladin because they get so few feat slots (namely, they'd only be able to enter after 7th level if they use all their feats for something else entirely). In fact, a Fighter could enter even faster (at 5th level, because they get all they need by that level), and still have spare feats to work with.


Increase skill points to 4/level and add Bluff, Disguise and Move Silently.

Pretty obvious. The more skill points, the better; also, it fits well with the villain who wants to "blend in".


Smite and Command undead add half your non-BG levels to the level check.

3rd smite is at level 8 (and Smite is /encounter if such things are applied).

Reasonable enough, but still kinda meh. You don't use Rebuke Undead for commanding the undead; you use them to power divine feats (much like Paladins do).

As for the Smite, I'd make it usable per encounter (as I did on Project Heretica, but mostly because it is a general fix that most people can agree with, unless you're playing Pathfinder), which will deliver some impressive returns. Blackguards gain their smites much faster this way, so they'll be capable of using them almost every battle. If they can combine it with their sneak attack, they get a very useful way to deal solid damage without the need to expand their static damage.


Dead servant is regained after resting.

The Fiendish Servant is akin to the Wizard's familiar, the Paladin's special mount or the Druid/Ranger's animal companion. It's nothing easy to get, even if the servant itself is kinda weak. Making it easy to regain would feel a bit wrong when the other classes get so many penalties for losing them (the paladin, for example, can't call a new special mount for 30 days or after getting a new paladin level), so I can't really vouch for this. Slain or dismissed familiars can't be replaced for a year and a day, which is even worse, and the blackguard recovers this a day after resting...again, not very reasonable when the other pets are a pain to get.

I'd recommend an alternative to the fiendish servant (maybe access to some of the paladin's ACFs, using the same methodology as the smites and rebuke in case character level is needed) for those blackguards who aren't interested in summoning one. Not everyone wants to have a small servant or a mount; some prefer working alone. Also, an ACF similar to the Thayan Knight PrC for those blackguards that serve as henchmen for wizard BBEGs.


Add the following ability on a dead level

Implacable Man (EX): You are immune to fatigue, and anything that would cause you to become exhausted makes you fatigued instead. At (2nd formerly dead level) you also become immune to any penalties based on injuries (such as a Wounding weapon) as well.

I dunno; fatigue is a condition that has quite a few automatic applications, but for the cases where this doesn't happen their insane Fort save should be enough. Plus, you'd need something for the creatures who are already immune to fatigue.

The second, though, is quite abusable. That would neglect stuff such as energy drain (most of the energy drain stuff is based on slams or similar abilities), most of the ability drain of undead, as well as any spell that delivers a status effect alongside damage (not Enervation, but some spells are akin to that).

Also, bonus feats. I can't stress this enough; a dirty fix I usually vouch for with core PHB Paladins is that they should replace their uses of Remove Disease for bonus feats (Fighter, divine, domain, perhaps a few more). Likewise, adding at least one or two bonus feats to the Blackguard will make them a bit more robust, better in combat.


Add various spells to list (enlarge person? Unholy Sword?), key spells off Cha.

Using the Prestige Paladin trait, I'd suggest something different. Instead of giving them a spell list, I'd do the following:

First, I'd make the list go "+1 to existing divine spellcasting ability". Thus, if you made an entry as a Cleric (or better, as a Favored Soul), you keep your spellcasting intact. But, to make it less of a boon, I'd remove a few of those levels (maybe 1st, then two or three more). Then, on those levels, I'd add "see text".

Second, if you enter as a Fighter, for example, or wish to advance your spellcasting as a (former) Paladin (much like Bone Knight does), I'd make an expansion to that list. A class that provides no spellcasting ability would gain the spellcasting ability of a Favored Soul (so they get Charisma to spellcasting) one level lower; thus, they get access to all the nice Cleric spells (and progress nine levels of spellcasting, not six or eight). If they enter as a (fallen) Paladin, they advance their spells as usual, but gain CL equal to their class level (and progress their spellcasting EVERY LEVEL) AND get their spell list replaced with the Cleric spell list (so they can prepare Cleric spells). Finally, allow a few exceptions and additions; reduce some spells from their levels, add a few spells from Sorc/Wiz spell list that would fit the Blackguard, etc. While something I did when handling the Blackguard (and you could get some ideas from what I did there), the idea is that the spells the Blackguard get aren't enough, and some Cleric spells are very good for the aspiring Blackguard; furthermore, you'd be recovering to an extent your old Paladin spellcasting ability but further improved, so it would seem like a vast improvement to become a Blackguard rather than a loss (better spellcasting ability than a non-Paladin Blackguard, as well as that of a Blackguard with existing spellcasting ability).

While not exactly a "quick" fix, and pretty dirty as it seems, the idea is that it will serve as a boon for any divine spellcaster, provide some solid spellcasting for those classes that have none, and most importantly advance the old spellcasting ability of a Paladin to a quite competitive level. The latter choice needs something else to compete (probably add one extra spell per level if making the change into Blackguard), but it would be pretty thematic.

Still, even with all the choices done, I'd consider expanding the class as per the Prestige Paladin. It would really make justice to the Blackguard without making it a full class (though I believe that, if the Paladin IS a full class, a Blackguard SHOULD be a full class as well; that's just me, tho).

[wuwuwu]

Wow, I'd never noticed it gave you paladin class features without boost to make up for lost scaling.

One big fail you didn't mention is the prereqs. Blackguard is supposed to be what you do when you fall from Paladin, right? But paladins aren't allowed to plan to be blackguards, and how many paladins just happen to have Cleave and Improved Sunder and cross-class ranks in Hide?

I think a lot of people are getting a misconception that you're supposed to plan or want to be a blackguard while you're still a paladin. I feel the intention when writing the class, and the spirit of the game the designers were going for was that a paladin would fall, then go crazy and evil, work his way to the pre-reqs, become a blackguard, and trade his paladin levels away.

This has, for the most part, not been the case with most of the game, where people are planning builds from level 1 to level 20 and optimizing. This isn't a bad thing, just not what I think the designers were designing for.

It's my belief that the designers were thinking players would do a more "d0 wats rite" level-by-level as you adventure approach than a "I want to one day be an X" plan it all at the beginning approach to character creation.

There is definitely nothing wrong with either approach (I personally try to keep pre-planning to a minimum, UNLESS it's the character planning to join an organization represented by a class or something. Or if a barbarian dreams of becoming a wizard or something.)

[Midnight_v]

Blackguard 10/Ex-paladin1 seems pretty good if you're fighting good.
3d6 sneak attack and Spells.
Smite good is pretty bad unless of course you're actually ... fighting good.
Like attacking the church of the god that "Betrayed you" or whatever.
Further you do get spells and a flanking partner.
You're definately going to have to do more than just take the class itself for it to be optimized. Nar Demonbinder seems a go to choiced for continuing its progression. That keeps you oddly somewhat level appropriate.

Still though... there are somethings that are wrong there.
Iconically I feel it should get a better companion, ideally a lesser Nighmare. That scales to be 2hd below you like a cohort.
Also it should likely have
Smite any like the crusader has... etc. Its really wierd the things they do get, also they're not really supported out side of an occasional spell here and there, but they DO qualifiy you for things that have a prereq of sneak attack.

[Knaight]

It's my belief that the designers were thinking players would do a more "d0 wats rite" level-by-level as you adventure approach than a "I want to one day be an X" plan it all at the beginning approach to character creation.

Without the long list of prerequisites everywhere, from classes to feats, the gradual development method would work a lot better. That may have been their intention, but it wasn't their design - though this may well be due to incompetence.

[MeeposFire]

The only thing I like about blackguard is that it allows me to make a character with no base class levels (eventually).

[Darthteej]

I think a lot of people are getting a misconception that you're supposed to plan or want to be a blackguard while you're still a paladin. I feel the intention when writing the class, and the spirit of the game the designers were going for was that a paladin would fall, then go crazy and evil, work his way to the pre-reqs, become a blackguard, and trade his paladin levels away.


I remember planning to be a blackguard when I was still a paladin. Made things interesting...

[Hazzardevil]

I remember planning to be a blackguard when I was still a paladin. Made things interesting...

Any sane DM would make you fall if he knew, as in in character planning on eventually falling.

Also, I would like to present a build that truly represents the paladin to climb so high, then fall even further so fast he left skid marks on the alignment chart.

Crusader 1, gives the nice paladin feel.
Dread Necromancer 8, to represent that the paladin isn't quite so nice anymore.
RKW, it's like the blackguard if you use it to represent the paladin falling.
Dread Witch, because fear sums up how the blackguard controls his minions.

[ericgrau]

Well besides spells a paladin gets smite evil and remove disease at later levels. The blackguard gets a weaker smite but some minor sneak attack makes up the difference. The aura of despair is helpful too. Anything on top of that is gravy compared to paladin levels, and as minor as they are the other abilities do help. I mean you could say a class is bad b/c it gets a bonus to craft(basketweaving), but in fact that is not so: the bonus does not help nor hurt the class.

[deuxhero]

The Fiendish Servant is akin to the Wizard's familiar, the Paladin's special mount or the Druid/Ranger's animal companion. It's nothing easy to get, even if the servant itself is kinda weak. Making it easy to regain would feel a bit wrong when the other classes get so many penalties for losing them (the paladin, for example, can't call a new special mount for 30 days or after getting a new paladin level), so I can't really vouch for this. Slain or dismissed familiars can't be replaced for a year and a day, which is even worse, and the blackguard recovers this a day after resting...again, not very reasonable when the other pets are a pain to get.

Note that the Druid's AC does something useful and while the Familar is a walking/flying/hopping EXP bomb, it does have uses (and the Ranger/Druid ones ARE expendable to some degree, requiring only 24 hours of work to restore if killed). The fiendish servant is at best a beast of burden that beats mundane beasts only because it can see in the dark and speak with you. It's utterly useless at combat. A Ranger's can at least scout, but a fiendish animal is obviously fiendish and has no ranks in hide/move silent.

Additionally, it's thematically fitting for an evil class to have disposable minions (unlike protectors of nature sacrificing animals)


Also turning=divine feat thing is iffy for a class's usablity when the class is core and the feats are not.


As I mentioned before, ex-Paladins seem to qualifiy regardless of requirements and if not should.

[Darthteej]

Any sane DM would make you fall if he knew, as in in character planning on eventually falling.


You misunderstand, I was planning the character arc in addition to the mechanics, a trick a friend of mine taught me. Basically I knew that at some point he was going to fall, but the character didn't.

[Knaight]

You misunderstand, I was planning the character arc in addition to the mechanics, a trick a friend of mine taught me. Basically I knew that at some point he was going to fall, but the character didn't.

I assume the GM has been made aware of this character arc, to some extent? It tends to work much better that way.

[T.G. Oskar]

Note that the Druid's AC does something useful and while the Familar is a walking/flying/hopping EXP bomb, it does have uses (and the Ranger/Druid ones ARE expendable to some degree, requiring only 24 hours of work to restore if killed). The fiendish servant is at best a beast of burden that beats mundane beasts only because it can see in the dark and speak with you. It's utterly useless at combat. A Ranger's can at least scout, but a fiendish animal is obviously fiendish and has no ranks in hide/move silent.

Additionally, it's thematically fitting for an evil class to have disposable minions (unlike protectors of nature sacrificing animals)

As far as I can see, bats, cats, dire rats (particularly dire rats), and to an extent toads (Hide only) HAVE ranks in Hide and Move Silently. The toad alone has a whopping 21 ranks in Hide, mostly because of its size. That alone could make a few of them decent scouts.

Second, the fiendish servants already have a template tacked upon, which while not the best, it's still pretty decent (energy resistance, free DR, and while questionable, an extra use of smite good per day). An animal companion doesn't get a template, a special mount doesn't get a template, and a familiar doesn't get a template; if it does, it generally adds a penalty to the progression (such as familiars, which while not exactly a penalty, they DO require you to be of higher level and essentially waste you a feat for them). So, you get an animal turned into a magical beast via a free feat.

Third, it all depends on what you want. Generally you'll want the horse, since it's better (and progresses slightly faster) than the paladin's special mount (the only difference is 1-3 points of natural armor, and the abilities between each other (command creatures and improved speed vs. blood bond and speak with master); however, the blackguard's horse WILL get a free template, AND will retain most of its benefits compared to the other mounts a paladin can get (they can get stuff like hippogriffs, griffons and pegasi, but each such animal entails a penalty to the paladin's effective level, so in exchange you deny your mount some abilities gained through progression or delay their access). The paladin and the blackguard have similar spells they can use to improve their mounts, and the share spells ability means that any spell you have, your mount will also have.

If what you want is a scout, though, the bat is pretty decent. It has ranks in Hide and Move Silently alongside Listen and Spot (all four classical scouting abilities), it can communicate with you, and its slightly more resilient than the wizard's familiar, albeit not as much as the druid's animal companion. It can fly with good maneuverability and it also has darkvision AND blindsense, so it can see quite a bit actually. The raven likewise has flight, but no ranks in Hide and MS, so it's mostly your choice.

The dire rat is mostly a nuisance rather than an effective combatant. You can't really compare a dire rat with, say, a wolf or a bear (which are pretty strong, actually) but you CAN make it pretty annoying as a villain, if only because of the infectious bite.

The thing is, it depends on what you wish to compare it. As much, the fiendish servant is essentially a familiar that progresses as a special mount; if what you want is the latter OR an animal companion, what you need is mostly boosting them to that level, not making them expendable. You're dealing with fiendish creatures with a larger measure of intellect; at some moment, having killed so many because of being "disposable" will make them deny your call. Plus, unlike with animals, you can't easily call (not summon, there's a BIG difference) a fiendish animal unless you have a 24/7 (or 24/10 if on Faerun, IIRC) portal to the Lower Planes. As it stands, unless it's a horse (or a pony, but that's debatable), you treat the fiendish servant as a familiar; not an extremely valuable asset, but neither expendable nor disposable.


Also turning=divine feat thing is iffy for a class's usablity when the class is core and the feats are not.

Speaking of core...you do know that turn and rebuke undead on clerics lose their potential after a few levels, right? At first levels it works great, but it's that diminishing return (you can turn one extra HD per level instead of several) which makes them pretty weak. You need to heavily boost your turning/rebuking check and THEN your turning/rebuking damage for the ability to work as intended. As it stands, it's better to use the feats as they provide you with extra abilities. Plus, if you're playing with a Blackguard, you'll most likely find yourself facing good creatures; a Blackguard used as a villain will rarely find spare undead to use rebuke, and if it does it probably already has them manipulated as part of the encounter. It really matters most if you wish to build an undead army, and in that case you should have more than one book open to find the best, cost effective undead around. Even then, you'll rarely find yourself controlling more than one undead, and rarely one of your actual HD (even as a cleric, you'll usually find yourself with a bunch of undead servitors of much lower CR than your HD because of how HD scales regarding CR).

Divine feats, on the other hand, are a bit more extensive. Divine Might, for example, adds quite a bit of punch to your attacks, lasts for several rounds (half your character level, so when you get it you already start with a very decent boost), adds your Charisma to damage (which is almost a must for a fighting class) and can be used every time you enter combat. Rebuke Undead is far too specific (you can only use it when you find independent undead, as undead under control of a necromancer or cleric are usually off-limits), and you could do better using Animate Dead to create custom-made undead under your control. And Animate Dead is a core spell, even if it's not on the Blackguard's spell list; then again, consider that you were seeking to expand the spell list, and that is an excellent spell to add.


As I mentioned before, ex-Paladins seem to qualifiy regardless of requirements and if not should.

As it stands, a Paladin should be at least 7th level before entering. That is because they need 5 ranks on Intimidate, which is a cross-class skill for them; hence, they need to expend 10 skill points to do so, and they can only get 5 ranks at 7th level. They also need three feats, which because of their feat starvation means you have to focus on one of the three lines, instead of, say, getting something that could provide them a bit more punch. Certainly Power Attack is great, but not much else and you don't have enough feats to get into Shock Trooper as the fighter would; Mounted Combat would be the usual suspect, but you'd be missing your mount for several levels once you fall, and then you'd be hard-pressed to choose a horse as your fiendish servant to compensate. And Combat Expertise requires investing far too many points (or getting a good score) in a dump stat. Even then, you'd get all your feat requirements at 6th level, and you're forcing someone to adopt one of three specific feats (which aren't so bad, but if you're dumping Int, not using a two-handed weapon and not seeking to use a mount, you're not so pressed into taking them).

But, I have good hope on the "if not, they should". They certainly CAN, but if you want an early entry method, you should play with a special requirement that "fallen paladins may ignore the requirements to enter so as long as they make peaceful contact with an evil outsider". Since most times that "meeting" will be an evil outsider tempting them into falling, they could enter extremely early, but you as a DM could control that into the range of 5th level; if you were to need MORE requirements, the Knowledge (religion) requirement should be enough. However, it's odd that the class that would fit the entry into Blackguard (a fallen Paladin) enters a bit later than another class. As it stands, a Fighter could easily enter at 5th level if you replaced the Hide requirement for Intimidate so as long as it can peacefully meet an evil outsider, and that's not necessarily the idea.

[stainboy]

Well besides spells a paladin gets smite evil and remove disease at later levels. The blackguard gets a weaker smite but some minor sneak attack makes up the difference.


Smite Good is a whole different problem, and that one got copied to Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter. In D&D you fight evil stuff about half the time so an anti-Evil ability works. Smite Good is worthless unless you are a DM-controlled monster. It also just hurts my head thematically because it implies that everyone evil plays for the same team.

Antipaladin types should get Smite Mortal, or Smite Anything that can Feel Pain.

[deuxhero]

doesn't get a template

The problem is the small bonuses aren't worth half its HD.\



Familars can activate wands (action economy, ho!), give skill bonuses, and some other stuff like SLAs for improved familiar stuff. The feindish companion can... uh...

[Douglas]

Blackguard is good for one thing: going Paladin 20, and then becoming Blackguard 21 one level later. Boom, 11 levels of epic progression on a PrC when you're only 1 level into epic. Sadly, Epic Blackguard is bad enough that the only really notable benefit is the number of epic bonus feats you get to pick up right away.

[Prime32]

One big fail you didn't mention is the prereqs. Blackguard is supposed to be what you do when you fall from Paladin, right? But paladins aren't allowed to plan to be blackguards, and how many paladins just happen to have Cleave and Improved Sunder and cross-class ranks in Hide?One of the "extremist paladin" PrCs (either Grey Guard or Shadowbane Inquisitor) conveniently gives you the prereqs for blackguard as part of its progression.

But I agree that it's silly. Ex-paladins should be able to ignore the skill/feat prereqs.

[Doug Lampert]

One of the "extremist paladin" PrCs (either Grey Guard or Shadowbane Inquisitor) conveniently gives you the prereqs for blackguard as part of its progression.

But I agree that it's silly. Ex-paladins should be able to ignore the skill/feat prereqs.

Agreed, I don't think Sabine even ASKED about any of that stuff in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0419.html) comic.

[Grendus]

Miko was high enough level she could have had the skill ranks cross class, so it could be a moot point. Considering that we've only seen like three prestige classes in the comic so far (Shadowdancer, Mystic Theurge, and Dashing Swordsman), it's quite possible the entry requirements aren't really well understood. Or Rich could be following the logic that ex-paladins qualify automatically.

[wuwuwu]

Or maybe Sabine was going to recruit her, send her to Blackguard Bootcamp, where she would gain the feats/skills to qualify.

There are a lot of ways to interpret that strip :smalltongue:

[Douglas]

Or maybe all Paladin-turned-Blackguard falls are planned out of character far enough in advance to "coincidentally" have the prereqs at the critical moment. Wise Paladin orders give special attention to members who take Cleave, Improved Sunder, and ranks in Hide, guarding against the high likelihood of those members going evil.:smalltongue: