Was this my fault? (Post-TPK Evaluation) [Archive]

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 06:03 PM

Probably. But I figured I should find out exactly in what way it was my fault.

Last weekend ended in a TPK. After escaping a "Hellcube" of lethal traps followed by continuous resurrection, the party found themselves in a dungeon of unknown purpose, which architecturally looked like a mix between the Forerunners from Halo and the Grid from Tron: Legacy. After spending about half an hour trying to force a large stone door open, the found themselves standing face-to-face with a Blade Guardian. The construct was unexpectedly proficient at handing their asses to them, nearly killing the Drow Sorcerer and bringing the Flind Barbarian within one attack of unconsciousness on several occasions.

Eventually the Flind stopped fumbling and killed the Blade Guardian in a single 50-damage crit, cutting it cleanly in half. After a few heals, they continued down the hall and up the stairs. After forcing open a second stone door, they found themselves in a 15 foot diameter, octagonal chute, with another Blade Guardian in the middle of the room. This one went much faster, the Flind using rage and Enlarge Person in tandem to land another crit.

At this point the last of the party entered the room (the Sorcerer had stayed in the hall because none of his spells were effective against constructs), and the floor beneath them revealed itself to be an elevator, beginning to move up the chute. At the top, it opened up beneath them into a 40-foot spiked pit. Everyone fell with the exception of the Wyrmling White Dragon, who simply flew. The Sorcerer got a feather fall off, but still took damage from the spikes.

At the top of the chute were four doorways. The 'ceiling' to the chute was actually a wall of force with four yellow beams of energy coursing through it, with the chute visibly continuing beyond that. The wyrmling affixed a rope to one of the doorways and the Flind climbed up and forced the door open.

At the top, a Canoloth was waiting for them. After trying and failing to throw the Canoloth down the chute, the Flind took the brunt of the Cano's cause fear power, and was sent fleeing down the rope. The Cano followed, managing to paralyze the Flind with its tongue, causing him to fall to the bottom. At this point, since the Cano couldn't get itself within melee range of the Kenku taking potshots at it, it retreated back down the hall and waited for its prey to come to it.

At this point the Wyrmling decided to begin hit-and-run attacks against the Cano by flying up, using his breath weapon, and flying back down to recharge. When he finally realized that his breath was little more than an annoyance due to the Cano's cold resistance, he opted to stay at the bottom of the chute.

Here there was a 30 second lull in the battle, as neither side took any action. At this point, the Cano lost patience and flung itself from the chute, dropping like a boulder on the Wyrmling's head and knocking him out (400 pounds of demon dog on a cat-sized dragon will do that). Then it turned to the Kenku, dropping her within a few attacks. Here, the Sorcerer grabbed the party's wand of cure light wounds (in the possession of the Wyrmling at the time) and healed the unconscious Wyrmling. The Cano, noticing the Wyrmling stirring beneath it, reached down and pulled an Ozzy Osbourne, biting off the Wyrmlings head and killing it.

After this the Sorcerer was taken out within a few rounds and with everyone either dead, unconscious, or paralyzed for the next several minutes, the Cano took its time to eat every last one of them.

----

Two major problems present themselves to me immediately:
-The only source of healing the party had was a single wand, juggled to whoever was otherwise the most useless at the time.
-The Sorcerer's spell selection was terrible. I've posted it in an earlier thread, so as soon as I fish that up I'll post it here. One major problem is that about half of his blasting spells required him to make physical contact with his opponents, which is a good way for a clothie like him to become a stain on the wall.

Anything else that could've been handled better? The thing that baffles me about this is that the entire ordeal was, theoretically, level-appropriate. The CR 6 Blade Guardians were a bit rough, yeah, but supposedly a CR 5 Cano shouldn't be able to utterly destroy a 5th level party with nary a scratch beyond the self-inflicted impact wounds of the dive bomb attempt.

[Edit]: The Drow Sorcerer's spell list:

Level 0-
Detect Magic
Acid Splash
Daze
Ghost Sounds
Message
Read Magic

Level 1-
Backbiter
Burning Hands
Jump
True Strike
Chill Touch
Feather Fall

Greenish

2011-08-18, 06:17 PM

The thing that baffles me about this is that the entire ordeal was, theoretically, level-appropriate. The CR 6 Blade Guardians were a bit rough, yeah, but supposedly a CR 5 Cano shouldn't be able to utterly destroy a 5th level party with nary a scratch beyond the self-inflicted impact wounds of the dive bomb attempt.CR isn't a very accurate method of determining how strong a monster is, and your party… well, they're not exactly optimization-minded. LA and RHD tend to be worse than class levels.

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 06:23 PM

CR isn't a very accurate method of determining how strong a monster is, and your party… well, they're not exactly optimization-minded. LA and RHD tend to be worse than class levels.

How exactly is CR determined, anyway? Do they just eyeball it? One of the encounters I have planned once they get out of this dungeon is a Remorhaz. Even though they'll be Level 7 by then, it still looks like it could very easily wipe the floor with them.

GoodbyeSoberDay

2011-08-18, 06:34 PM

tyckspoon

2011-08-18, 06:38 PM

There are three major things you're overlooking in saying 'this shouldn't have killed them'. The first is the party's already beat-up state, after going through 2 previous encounters and a fall into a spiked pit. The second is that battle conditions modifier Encounter Level, which is the overall measure of how hard a fight is; the Canoloth possessed a strong starting position that was hard for the party to approach. They might have been able to beat it if they were able to all fight it together (although I doubt it), but with the way that fight was set up they ended up basically attacking it in a series of one-on-one encounters. A *party* of level 5 characters is supposed to be able to handle a EL 5 encounter; a *single* level 5 character is quite likely to get killed by one, and the conditions of the fight mean it would be more fairly considered EL 6 or 7.

The third thing is that Outsiders, especially demons/devils/angels, are routinely under-CR for the threats they present. The Canoloth has DR 5/Good, energy resistances to the most common elemental damage types, and Spell Resistance 18. Your typical level 5 party will be very hard pressed to do significant damage to it. Offensively, it carries a good range at a decent attack bonus attached to a very potent status condition- it only takes a little bit of luck to put somebody out of the fight. This is very, very rough for a CR 5 critter.

(The 4th thing is of course that your party is lacking several of the key components that are assumed in a CR number- primarily, CR is based off the 'standard' Wizard-Cleric-Rogue-Fighter party or something that has reasonable analogues for those roles, which means in order to deal with the Canoloth they should have 3rd level Arcane and Divine spells to support them. Your party has no divine and only 1st level Arcane- it should not surprise you that they have significant trouble with any situation that is not 'there's a thing standing on open ground in front of you, go beat it up.')

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 06:39 PM

How was the wyrmling knockout and the biting head off stuff handled? Was it just "bam, you're knocked out" and then "bam, your head gets bitten off" or were there actual attacks and rolls with statistics? Rule 0 is rule 0, but this party doesn't need any new problems they can't handle.

No, the Cano did an attack roll to hit the Wyrmling and the damage was based on the falling object rules. (400 lbs. + 40 foot drop = 5d6 damage. The Cano takes damage too, but it can take quite a bit.)

The head-removed bit was the way I flavored the bite attack taking him from "just barely conscious" to "very very dead."

Also keep in mind that an unoptimized party should be treated like a lower ECL party as far as challenging them. Also, do they have proper WBL? Taken as a one-time thing, every party has TPKs, so this isn't a big deal. Considering the frequency with which you are at the helm of TPKs, however, one might want to consider lower-CR encounters... unless your group likes making new characters.

Hm. The coddling bit irritates me, since I like tough (but survivable if played smartly) encounters. Maybe it would be prudent to usher the party over to the Playground to get an understanding of how to not be completely inept. (The Flind Barbarian isn't a problem in my eyes, but the Sorcerer with spells that are useless in 90% of all situations definately is.)

There are three major things you're overlooking in saying 'this shouldn't have killed them'. The first is the party's already beat-up state, after going through 2 previous encounters and a fall into a spiked pit. The second is that battle conditions modifier Encounter Level, which is the overall measure of how hard a fight is; the Canoloth possessed a strong starting position that was hard for the party to approach. They might have been able to beat it if they were able to all fight it together (although I doubt it), but with the way that fight was set up they ended up basically attacking it in a series of one-on-one encounters. A *party* of level 5 characters is supposed to be able to handle a EL 5 encounter; a *single* level 5 character is quite likely to get killed by one, and the conditions of the fight mean it would be more fairly considered EL 6 or 7.

The beat-up state also occurred to me, since the party kept on trucking through the dungeon even after two very nasty fights against the Blade Guardians. As for the Cano's strong starting position, the Flind is literally the only character that made any attempt to actually climb the rope into the hallway the Cano had been waiting in (a 5x10 hallway about 50 feet long). And until it did the (quasi-suicidal) dive bomb thing, it had no way of reaching the party either.

Greenish

2011-08-18, 06:48 PM

Hm. The coddling bit irritates me, since I like tough (but survivable if played smartly) encounters.It's not coddling to act on the understanding that "tough but survivable" encounter for your party isn't the same as "tough but survivable" encounter on some other party. :smallamused:

Besides, your party doesn't seem to be going for the "played smartly" part, if their race/spell selections and preferred tactics (stroll up and beat everything on head) are any indication. Savvier individuals might've noted, for example, that Feather Fall can affect several characters.

tyckspoon

2011-08-18, 06:51 PM

How exactly is CR determined, anyway? Do they just eyeball it? One of the encounters I have planned once they get out of this dungeon is a Remorhaz. Even though they'll be Level 7 by then, it still looks like it could very easily wipe the floor with them.

Basically. There's a usable metric for telling if something is actually at the correct CR (a character of the same level should have a roughly even chance of going one-on-one with it), but assigning the numbers to hit that point is basically guesswork.

Incidentally, you've chosen another one of the notoriously vicious monsters there; it's got good damage output, and the really mean part is the weapon destruction. If the party composition stays the same, I'd expect another TPK- the wyrmling could kite it to death with flight and his breath weapon, but everybody else will get run down and eaten, and so will the dragon if it stays too close.

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 06:53 PM

Besides, your party doesn't seem to be going for the "played smartly" part, if their race/spell selections and preferred tactics (stroll up and beat everything on head) are any indication. Savvier individuals might've noted, for example, that Feather Fall can affect several characters.

I think in the feather fall case, it's more a matter of not having a thorough knowledge of the spell. I didn't even know that until you brought it up, mostly because it's never come up before (I don't particularly feel like taking the time to memorize every spell in the book. Just the ones that come up a lot). Now, you'd think feather fall would be a pretty common spell, but this Sorcerer might actually be the first straight arcane caster I've ever dealt with as a DM (all the previous ones were either Warmages or Warlocks).

Incidentally, you've chosen another one of the notoriously vicious monsters there; it's got good damage output, and the really mean part is the weapon destruction. If the party composition stays the same, I'd expect another TPK- the wyrmling could kite it to death with flight and his breath weapon, but everybody else will get run down and eaten, and so will the dragon if it stays too close.

I'll probably get something similar, but the Wyrmling at the very least I think has figured out that he's actually kind of useless in combat (both of the monsters they fought last time had DR, making every offensive power he had almost entirely worthless). I do intend to take the time to make sure they're at least something vaguely resembling optimized this time around though. I'm sick of them getting killed by what should be pretty standard fare.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-08-18, 06:56 PM

Terrain to the monster's advantage raises CR.

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 06:59 PM

Terrain to the monster's advantage raises CR.

But also very arguable. For example, I don't think the 40-foot high ground worked much to the Cano's advantage considering its tongue only had a 20 foot range and it can't climb. In fact, the dungeon had been mapped under the (apparently erroneous) assumption that the party would be smart enough not to split up and that half the team wouldn't be left at the bottom of the spike pit, thus removing the high ground from the equation entirely.

Greenish

2011-08-18, 07:15 PM

I think in the feather fall case, it's more a matter of not having a thorough knowledge of the spell.Exactly my point. Sorcerers, especially low level ones, get very few spells known. A 3rd level sorcerer player should know exactly what each of their spells does (or, at the very least, have a cheat sheet at hand).

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 07:18 PM

Exactly my point. Sorcerers, especially low level ones, get very few spells known. A 3rd level sorcerer player should know exactly what each of their spells does (or, at the very least, have a cheat sheet at hand).

I do think that the Sorcerer picked his spells entirely based on the short blurb on the spell list rather than actually looking at any of the spells. Hence why he tried using chill touch on a construct.

Tetrasodium

2011-08-18, 07:20 PM

I think the WBL question is a very good/important one... If your players are under equipped, it's going to severely reduce what constitutes an appropriate encounter. The rest of the problem, looks to have been a multi part thing. One paryt was already addressed when the players kept on trucking even after getting pretty well beat up by previous encounters/trap. The sorc's horrific spell selection was an issue. The sorc spells aren't great sure, but for the level there aren't many other options.I'm not botherintg to lookup the cano, but apparantly they have DR/good and cold resistance, at least one party member has a significant investment in cold damage (the wyrmling), did the barb have a good alligned weapon or reasonable chance to acquire one or believe he might need one previously? ... if no then I'd say it falls to you when combined with the cold resistance. Given the levels involved, they can't really be faulted for poor planning when it comes to things like gear beyond a simple +1 [weapon] due to the expense likely being more than any one character has

Greenish

2011-08-18, 07:22 PM

I do think that the Sorcerer picked his spells entirely based on the short blurb on the spell list rather than actually looking at any of the spells. Hence why he tried using chill touch on a construct.So is it any wonder they're struggling with encounters of nominally "appropriate" difficulty?

You could point them to the forums, but you might get more than you bargained for (or it might do nothing, that focused specialist conjurer/master specialist/incantatrix won't do much in the hands of someone who doesn't bother to learn what the basic, common spells do).

ZardozSpeaks

2011-08-18, 07:25 PM

Flinds are Monstrous Humanoids, and not eligible for the Enlarge Person spell.

TPK sounds clean, parties should die sometimes.

Safety Sword

2011-08-18, 07:27 PM

Exactly my point. Sorcerers, especially low level ones, get very few spells known. A 3rd level sorcerer player should know exactly what each of their spells does (or, at the very least, have a cheat sheet at hand).

How does a player select a spell without knowing what the thing does? :smallfurious:

Weird....

Edit: typos

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 07:31 PM

-run-on paragraph that I don't feel like dividing up-

They had standard WBL for a 5th level character, meaning 9000gp ea. (I had to point out EXACTLY 9000, not a copper more, to shut up the inevitable memestorm.) However, this wealth was not-infrequently spent idiotically, with the party Sorcerer blowing 8000gp on a +1 shock shortsword.

As for the DR for the Cano, align weapon is a 2nd level Cleric spell, which I'm rather baffled isn't available as an oil, scroll or wand. Bless weapon, a 1st Level Paladin spell, is available in item form, however. Either one could beat a Cano's DR, and the latter is readily accessible regardless of party setup.

Flinds are Monstrous Humanoids, and not eligible for the Enlarge Person spell.

Which is annoying and really kind of crippling to anyone playing a race outside of the PHB. Call it a house rule.

You could point them to the forums, but you might get more than you bargained for (or it might do nothing, that focused specialist conjurer/master specialist/incantatrix won't do much in the hands of someone who doesn't bother to learn what the basic, common spells do).

I'm willing to excuse the Sorcerer for youthful ignorance. :smallamused: This was his second character ever, his first being a Human Fighter.

Zarin

2011-08-18, 07:36 PM

But also very arguable. For example, I don't think the 40-foot high ground worked much to the Cano's advantage considering its tongue only had a 20 foot range and it can't climb. In fact, the dungeon had been mapped under the (apparently erroneous) assumption that the party would be smart enough not to split up and that half the team wouldn't be left at the bottom of the spike pit, thus removing the high ground from the equation entirely.

I think the terrain was extremely to the monsters advantage, the players could only approach it one at a time don't underestimate a bottleneck, and yes they were out of it's reach while it was in it's hiding spot it got to choose when to engage the players and how.

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 07:40 PM

I think the terrain was extremely to the monsters advantage, the players could only approach it one at a time don't underestimate a bottleneck, and yes they were out of it's reach while it was in it's hiding spot it got to choose when to engage the players and how.

That still only makes it a CR 6 encounter, of which the party had already cleared two.

Tetrasodium

2011-08-18, 07:42 PM

They had standard WBL for a 5th level character, meaning 9000gp ea. (I had to point out EXACTLY 9000, not a copper more, to shut up the inevitable memestorm.) However, this wealth was not-infrequently spent idiotically, with the party Sorcerer blowing 8000gp on a +1 shock shortsword.

As for the DR for the Cano, align weapon is a 2nd level Cleric spell, which I'm rather baffled isn't available as an oil, scroll or wand. Bless weapon, a 1st Level Paladin spell, is available in item form, however. Either one could beat a Cano's DR.

Which is annoying and really kind of crippling to anyone playing a race outside of the PHB. Call it a house rule.

I'm willing to excuse the Sorcerer for youthful ignorance. :smallamused: This was his second character ever, his first being a Human Fighter.

ick... sounds like you have a bunch of newbies that need a little more help and guidance:
"what are you thinking abut getting?"
"useless stuff"
"mmhmm..." why that stuff & how do you see it helping you as a [insert class]?"
"seems cool?"
"you know that as a sorc with 9 strength and 10 con you will have a heck of a time hitting anything with that sword & get raped if anything decides to look at you? Maybe just a masterworklight crossnbow you can plink at things from range would be better?

You don't have much room for spells as a sorc, so you need to make them count as things that you could see yourself using every day. maybe a cheap scroll/amulet/whatever of featherfall and on of these other spells would be a better choice?

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 07:48 PM

ick... sounds like you have a bunch of newbies that need a little more help and guidance:

The Sorcerer is definitely a newbie. Like I said, this was his second character ever. The Wyrmling and the Kenku have been playing with me for like a year now (Maybe two? I haven't been counting.), so they're running out of excuses, but the Flind seems to very nearly have his act together (not that there's much to learn when you're specialty is simply supplying large quantities of hurt using oversized chunks of sharpened metal).

tyckspoon

2011-08-18, 07:52 PM

but the Flind seems to very nearly have his act together (not that there's much to learn when you're specialty is simply supplying large quantities of hurt using oversized chunks of sharpened metal).

Aside from figuring out that an RHD/LA race is a terrible idea? That's a pretty key realization in putting together a mechanically sound D&D character.

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 07:53 PM

Aside from figuring out that an RHD/LA race is a terrible idea? That's a pretty key realization in putting together a mechanically sound D&D character.

And yet he was easily the best character in the party. And sometimes fun overrules efficiency.

King Atticus

2011-08-18, 07:55 PM

Ursus the Grim

2011-08-18, 07:55 PM

There is a pretty clear advantage when a party goes from a spiked pit to a rope to a tough encounter. Your melee members have to line up, and your ranged can't get a good shot. Support members are the only ones that could theoretically do anything. Its especially rough when you consider that there is no bottleneck on the mook's side, just him fighting the party one-by-one.

Two CR 6s just before a CR 5 definitely puts this into potential (but not certain) TPK range, and given the advantage the Canoloth had, its not really surprising.

Its a little rough to criticize a low-level sorcerer for not having any spells that can hurt one specific monster type. Given that he has LA, his spells aren't exactly going to be perfect, so picking up a good melee weapon isn't a terrible decision.

Finally, you mention Bless Weapon and Align Weapon to beat the Cano's DR. And yet, there was no cleric nor Paladin, and they had no such items. You knew this. Why, with a low-op group, would they metagame and plan on bringing them?

There are two things that are really digging under my skin.

First, is that in your OP, you seem to acknowledge that it was your fault, but so far, the entire thread has been you arguing with people that agree with that suggestion.

Second is that you seem to think that because you can't tailor your adventure to the group, that they should tailor themselves to your idea of optimization. A good DM knows his party and knows what they can handle. You knew they were low-op gamers and yet you're still surprised and almost offended that they had the gall to die in such a way?

Don't send them here to learn to power game. That's not addressing the problem.

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 08:01 PM

Finally, you mention Bless Weapon and Align Weapon to beat the Cano's DR. And yet, there was no cleric nor Paladin, and they had no such items. You knew this. Why, with a low-op group, would they metagame and plan on bringing them?

General-purpose paranoia, generally. I like to give my characters just the right sort of pointy murder tool to use against pretty much anything, instead of just one murder-tool that's really really good.

First, is that in your OP, you seem to acknowledge that it was your fault, but so far, the entire thread has been you arguing with people that agree with that suggestion.

I acknowledged that it might be my fault. My arguing as simply been me providing explanations for my design choices. Plus, I like arguing. It's fun.

Second is that you seem to think that because you can't tailor your adventure to the group, that they should tailor themselves to your idea of optimization. A good DM knows his party and knows what they can handle. You knew they were low-op gamers and yet you're still surprised and almost offended that they had the gall to die in such a way?

The problem is that the party seems to bounce all over the competency spectrum. One day they'll been one-shotting everything I throw at them, and the next day they'll be wiped out by an angry kitten.

Don't send them here to learn to power game. That's not addressing the problem.

I don't want them to learn how to power-game. I want them to learn how to play their basic character concept. (No more druids that don't cast spells.)

Greenish

2011-08-18, 08:02 PM

That still only makes it a CR 6 encounter, of which the party had already cleared two.CR means very little to nothing. Think of Large Monstrous Crab, Revived Fossil Baboon or MMII.

And your party isn't level 5. Their average level (in actual classes) is 2. They're very fragile. They're not using tactics of, well, any kind.

[Edit]: And Flind is humanoid, not monstrous humanoid (monstrous humanoids would at least have full BAB).

Baroncognito

2011-08-18, 08:03 PM

No, the Cano did an attack roll to hit the Wyrmling and the damage was based on the falling object rules. (400 lbs. + 40 foot drop = 5d6 damage. The Cano takes damage too, but it can take quite a bit.)

What type of attack roll do you use for jumping down an elevator shaft at someone? It's clearly not a melee attack, it's clearly not a ranged attack.

I'd say it's a jump check. The Canoloth can aim for a certain area and do damage to anything in those squares. So the Canoloth would see where the dragon is, and aim to land on those squares. If he makes a successful jump check, he lands in those squares. In that situation, I'd have given the dragon a reflex save, and if the dragon beat the save by a large margin, no damage, narrowly beats it, half.

tyckspoon

2011-08-18, 08:04 PM

And your party isn't level 5. Their average level (in actual classes) is 2. They're very fragile. They're not using tactics of, well, any kind.

Which, on reflection, makes me a little surprised the Blade Guardians didn't kill one or two of them. If something requires a crit to take down in a timely fashion, it's probably too strong for the party.

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 08:07 PM

What type of attack roll do you use for jumping down an elevator shaft at someone? It's clearly not a melee attack, it's clearly not a ranged attack.

I wouldn't say it's "clearly not a ranged attack," considering that ranged attacks are about aiming something, and even inanimate objects can use ranged attacks (like, say, a bunch of bricks falling from the ceiling and landing on your head).

Xtomjames

2011-08-18, 08:09 PM

From what I can tell the encounter, as described in whole, was incorrect in the challenge rating.

CR of an encounter is based on quite a few aspects, as have already been described.

In this case you had two prior encounters which were survived, but for each subsequent encounter after an initial CR equal to the party's level, you should add a +1 to the CR to take into account the damage already dealt from the first and previous encounters.

By the time they got to the Cano, based on previous encounters alone, it was already a CR 7 or 8.

But the fall trap and spikes also increases that CR again, for each trap that you have prior to an encounter, you should increase the next encounter by a +1 again (unless they're so minor that they were easily bypassable, but in this encounter ease of escape wasn't the case). With both a drop and spikes that's another +2 to the CR.

The Cano's CR was probably close to twice of what it should have been (CR 9 or 10). Not to mention what has already been said about the Cano's efficiency and over all build.

Tetrasodium

2011-08-18, 08:11 PM

I like to give my characters just the right sort of pointy murder tool to use against pretty much anything, instead of just one murder-tool that's really really good.

While I'm sure that a lot of people will agree with that being a good idea, at level2ish , that's pretty much "I have my masterword sword and this here club in case we face a skeleton" or "well I have my masterwork dagger & a shortsword(?) in case we case some zombies or something else that will be resistant to pierce" or.. "my caster has alight crossbow and a [melee weapon]"

If the GM isn't putting in threats that seem to suggest a need fora specific expensive thing like a good aligned weapon or adamantine weapon, don't expect them to go get one on a whim, or even think about them, if you haven't also included them in loot at all

Greenish

2011-08-18, 08:11 PM

CR of an encounter is based on quite a few aspects, as have already been described.Technically, encounters don't have CR. :smalltongue:

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 08:15 PM

While I'm sure that a lot of people will agree with that being a good idea, at level2ish , that's pretty much "I have my masterword sword and this here club in case we face a skeleton" or "well I have my masterwork dagger & a shortsword(?) in case we case some zombies or something else that will be resistant to pierce" or.. "my caster has alight crossbow and a [melee weapon]"

Or say, carrying around a silver weapon, a cold iron weapon, some magic weapon oil, some bless weapon oil, a slashing weapon, a bludgeoning weapon, an adamantine weapon if you feel like getting extravagant, a ranged weapon (with both silver and cold iron ammo)... look like a walking Cuisinart.

The Cano's CR was probably close to twice of what it should have been (CR 9 or 10). Not to mention what has already been said about the Cano's efficiency and over all build.

On the other hand, if the party had rested and healed after the elevator, wouldn't the CR have dropped back down to 6 (or 7 if you think the pit was that much of an issue)?

Safety Sword

2011-08-18, 08:23 PM

What type of attack roll do you use for jumping down an elevator shaft at someone? It's clearly not a melee attack, it's clearly not a ranged attack.

I'd say it's a jump check. The Canoloth can aim for a certain area and do damage to anything in those squares. So the Canoloth would see where the dragon is, and aim to land on those squares. If he makes a successful jump check, he lands in those squares. In that situation, I'd have given the dragon a reflex save, and if the dragon beat the save by a large margin, no damage, narrowly beats it, half.

If you jump AT someone it should be a charge. Sure it's a charge with a circumstance bonus, but you're leaping full into someone and trying to swat them.

If you rule it to be an object falling on someone they should receive the applicable Reflex save (at DC 15) to avoid it. To my mind this is the wrong call and the creature will probably be moving it's body to make contact with its foe not be a dumb rock falling from the ceiling.

Talbot

2011-08-18, 08:24 PM

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 08:29 PM

Let's simplify: you're expecting your party to think like you do. That's bad DMing 101. They were obviously outclassed by the time it bullied them back into the spike pit, and you had an easy out by having it wait at the top, and didn't take it; bad DMing 102. You're using CR as anything more than a very loose guideline, and not factoring in their, um, let's say "unique" builds/races/etc. Bad DMing 103.

So, yes, it's your fault.

I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but you asked a direct question; there's a direct answer.

To clarify, was it my fault in the sense that it would've happened regardless of my player's decisions, or was it my fault because I wasn't willing to give leniency to incompetence?

As a DM, it's kinda always my fault, what with me controlling the entire universe and all.

Edited to Reduce Snark

Now I want to see the snarktastic version.

Greenish

2011-08-18, 08:30 PM

Ursus the Grim

2011-08-18, 08:31 PM

General-purpose paranoia, generally. I like to give my characters just the right sort of pointy murder tool to use against pretty much anything, instead of just one murder-tool that's really really good.

I acknowledged that it might be my fault. My arguing as simply been me providing explanations for my design choices. Plus, I like arguing. It's fun.

No arguing with that. I tend to do the same thing.

The problem is that the party seems to bounce all over the competency spectrum. One day they'll been one-shotting everything I throw at them, and the next day they'll be wiped out by an angry kitten.

This is pretty much inherently an issue with monster characters. Less Defenses due to fewer HD, but more straight-up power in some cases.

I don't want them to learn how to power-game. I want them to learn how to play their basic character concept. (No more druids that don't cast spells.)

CR means very little to nothing. Think of Large Monstrous Crab, Revived Fossil Baboon or MMII.

And your party isn't level 5. Their average level (in actual classes) is 2. They're very fragile. They're not using tactics of, well, any kind.

Hence them being wiped, and cue a whole thread about the problems with LA. In theory, they would have picked good races for their class, such a Con boost for a brawler to compensate for less HD. Also, I would strongly recommend considering LA buyoff for this group, to bring them to a more balanced character spectrum.

Though, in theory, they are Effective Character Level 5. The issue is that ECL is flawed.

What type of attack roll do you use for jumping down an elevator shaft at someone? It's clearly not a melee attack, it's clearly not a ranged attack.

I wouldn't say it's "clearly not a ranged attack," considering that ranged attacks are about aiming something, and even inanimate objects can use ranged attacks (like, say, a bunch of bricks falling from the ceiling and landing on your head).

I've got to agree with Psucho on this. Traps use ranged attacks, though I would impose some major penalties. Have you tried to jump on a cat lately? Little blighters like to move.

From what I can tell the encounter, as described in whole, was incorrect in the challenge rating.

In this case you had two prior encounters which were survived, but for each subsequent encounter after an initial CR equal to the party's level, you should add a +1 to the CR to take into account the damage already dealt from the first and previous encounters.

On the other hand, if the party had rested and healed after the elevator, wouldn't the CR have dropped back down to 6 (or 7 if you think the pit was that much of an issue)?

Wait, what? I don't understand this. The DMG states that a party should be able to take on four encounters of their level, not that the difficult of each actually increases based on how many they've been through. Theoretically, a party will fight equal encounters and lose an equal amount of resources in each. A spellcaster should use about 1/4 his spells, a fighter should lose about 1/4 his hp each encounter. A party shouldn't be spending more resources on later encounters just because they're later encounters.

Is there a source for this time-dependent CR concept?

While I'm sure that a lot of people will agree with that being a good idea, at level2ish , that's pretty much "I have my masterword sword and this here club in case we face a skeleton" or "well I have my masterwork dagger & a shortsword(?) in case we case some zombies or something else that will be resistant to pierce" or.. "my caster has alight crossbow and a [melee weapon]"

If the GM isn't putting in threats that seem to suggest a need fora specific expensive thing like a good aligned weapon or adamantine weapon, don't expect them to go get one on a whim, or even think about them, if you haven't also included them in loot at all

Or say, carrying around a silver weapon, a cold iron weapon, some magic weapon oil, some bless weapon oil, a slashing weapon, a bludgeoning weapon, an adamantine weapon if you feel like getting extravagant, a ranged weapon (with both silver and cold iron ammo)... look like a walking Cuisinart.

One more thought. You've got a Flind Gnoll, a White Dragon, and a Drow. I'm going to venture a guess and say this was an evil-aligned party. While most groups can expect to fight some constructs or lycanthropes, I would suspect most evil groups would be more wary of good creatures, and thus more likely to carry unholy weapons rather than good ones.

Circle of Life

2011-08-18, 08:34 PM

I've followed enough of your threads to know that you seem to take a kind of pleasure out of picking apart what people say to try to help you, so instead of coming up with a detailed explanation of why things go so wrong so often (which someone else will invariably do anyway), I'm simply going to tell you this:

You routinely expect too much understanding of your reasoning from your group, a group which in turn routinely dies. This is something you have the power to change, or you can continue to make weekly threads explaining how your group had the nerve to die on you again.

Up to you, really.

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 08:37 PM

One more thought. You've got a Flind Gnoll, a White Dragon, and a Drow. I'm going to venture a guess and say this was an evil-aligned party. While most groups can expect to fight some constructs or lycanthropes, I would suspect most evil groups would be more wary of good creatures, and thus more likely to carry unholy weapons rather than good ones.

I don't enforce racial alignments, so I think the party was mostly neutral. The Drow was evil due to living in a society where people stab you in the back in order to say hello, so he's mostly just ruthless and paranoid (not that it came up much considering his short lifespan). The Wyrmling was probably True Neutral due to being only two months old and not having developed much in the way of quirks (I don't go with the whole "genetically evil" thing unless you're dealing with evil outsiders, and even then I allow for exceptions). The Flind... the Flind was essentially Johnny Knoxville. So Chaotic Neutral, probably.

That leaves the Kenku who I assume was True Neutral/Neutral Good due to the player just having an immensely non-confrontational personality.

or you can continue to make weekly threads explaining how your group had the nerve to die on you again.

You make it seem like I'm mad at them. Mostly I'm just annoyed, in equal measure at myself and at them. As for the changing the way I play... as mentioned they've been playing with me for a year or two now and haven't complained much, despite me openly requesting them to voice frustrations. They are, apparently, completely okay with my general attitude.

And I have been learning. I just want to find the balance between what is most efficient and what is to my taste. Things have certainly gotten easier since I dropped that low-magic stuff, that's for sure. On the other hand, using things other than humans with class levels means I need to deal with an entirely new set of problems.

Tetrasodium

2011-08-18, 08:38 PM

Or say, carrying around a silver weapon, a cold iron weapon, some magic weapon oil, some bless weapon oil, a slashing weapon, a bludgeoning weapon, an adamantine weapon if you feel like getting extravagant, a ranged weapon (with both silver and cold iron ammo)... look like a walking Cuisinart.

On the other hand, if the party had rested and healed after the elevator, wouldn't the CR have dropped back down to 6 (or 7 if you think the pit was that much of an issue)?

Add up the cost of all those weapons sometime.. Hell.. even I wouldn't buy all that on a new character if I say "is there anything specific I'm going to need?" or ask for info about the theme of the campaign. If the group is goiong to do something that gives the impression we are going to need specialized gear beyond 2ish+ damage types(i.e. B/S) and the GM doesn't give us any reason to suggest we are going to need it I'm going to assume I'm pretty good given the level we are talking about Are they even capable of making the knowledge checks needed to know they might need something special before they go to the hellcube? If not... was there any reason for them to visit [npc] to learn about what sort of preparations they might need to undertake in order to prepare themselves for the undertaking? Both of those are things you should have made sure happened when dealing with fragile newbies with little inexperience. If these were near-epic players on there way to face the dracolich and they didn't bother to think to prepare it would have been all them... but these were newbies that might not have even understood that preparing was really an option

Talbot

2011-08-18, 08:39 PM

To clarify, was it my fault in the sense that it would've happened regardless of my player's decisions, or was it my fault because I wasn't willing to give leniency to incompetence?

Was the specific monster in the specific location inherently "wrong"? Arguable; yes, it's a monster that's meaner than its CR indicates (against a party that's not particularly effective to begin with) with advantageous positioning and right after a trap, but it's by no means undefeatable. Was having it press the attack on an already battered party after wiping the floor with the dominant member of the party (the Barb) "wrong"? I suppose it depends on the type of game you're playing and how much you like re-rolling characters. There are high-mortality rate games and in those cases, sure, it's fine. But if these players and/or you as the DM weren't angling for a high likelihood of TPK, then definitely yes. Based on your first post, it doesn't sound like the TPK was your original plan, so yeah, I'd argue that once you made the thing jump into the pit with them the TPK was pretty inevitable, and that was easily avoidable without having to resort to fiat; let the thing stay in its lair waiting for them. If they chase it in without regrouping/strategizing a second time, then it's THEIR fault, not yours.

Either way, blaming the players for not buying the right stuff is usually pretty thin, unless there'd been in-game hints dropped about what kind of stuff they might need. No matter what your players spend their wealth on, there will always be stuff they're not well-prepared for, especially at lower levels.

Greenish

2011-08-18, 08:42 PM

Well, now they'll be making new characters (I assume), so you could try to steer them into taking useful stuff, and when they're done you should coddle them like they were eggshell porcelain of Ming dynasty. :smallcool:

Ursus the Grim

2011-08-18, 08:47 PM

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 08:50 PM

-snip-

So basically stop using strategy against players who don't do the same. Or at least reign it back.

Either way, blaming the players for not buying the right stuff is usually pretty thin, unless there'd been in-game hints dropped about what kind of stuff they might need. No matter what your players spend their wealth on, there will always be stuff they're not well-prepared for, especially at lower levels.

I'm not blaming them for lack of being prepared for everything. I'm blaming them for lack of being prepared for anything. They just don't put much thought into their gear at all. The Flind, for example, has a tendency to buy a wand of burning hands, which he openly considers useless and calls it his Zippo. The Sorcerer's gear just sucked altogether, and I don't think the Kenku even bought any gear beyond armor/weapon. The Wyrmling probably put the most thought into his choices, and even then they got kinda ridiculous, such as his hat of disguise. His usual disguise being a golden-haired cat wearing a fez (gold because he'd never seen a real cat in his life and was basing it off a statuette in his parent's horde).

Greenish

2011-08-18, 08:52 PM

There is a difference between coddling them and playing a storytelling game cooperatively.Usually, yes. :smallwink:

Antonok

2011-08-18, 08:52 PM

To clarify, was it my fault in the sense that it would've happened regardless of my player's decisions, or was it my fault because I wasn't willing to give leniency to incompetence?

This is my thought on it. You've summed it up nicely yourself.

Not trying to sound like an arse here, but every DM everywhere, imho, should go into a campaign or adventure EXPECTING your players to do stupid, self-maiming, and irrantional things. Thats why most (atleast near every person I've played with) play DnD is so they can do things, or think in ways outside the norm.

The way this is sounding though, is you were kinda wanting to kill someone off. And the best way to do that is by not giving them alternate options to fight an encounter, especially after weakining them to such a degree. I mean seriously, you stuck them in a tunnel, with a fall and pit on one end, with a strong monster on the other end, and made it to where they can basically only go up one at a time. (This actually reminds me of one encounter I made where there was a pit in the middle of the hallway the PCs had to jump over with a Bone Claw on the other side of the pit, which turned out with similair results.) Also taking into account the fact most parties aren't going to stop to rest in the middle of a dungeon full of monsters without a type of safe house...

All in all, yes, even if they had been a high-op party, I think it was a poor choice on your (the DMs) part.

Just my 2 coppers.

Talbot

2011-08-18, 08:56 PM

So basically stop using strategy against players who don't do the same. Or at least reign it back.

You can use strategy or strong monsters and consecutive encounters. Both is probably pushing it with this party.

I'm not blaming them for lack of being prepared for everything. I'm blaming them for lack of being prepared for anything. They just don't put much thought into their gear at all. The Flind, for example, has a tendency to buy a wand of burning hands, which he openly considers useless and calls it his Zippo. The Sorcerer's gear just sucked altogether, and I don't think the Kenku even bought any gear beyond armor/weapon. The Wyrmling probably put the most thought into his choices, and even then they got kinda ridiculous, such as his hat of disguise. His usual disguise being a golden-haired cat wearing a fez (gold because he'd never seen a real cat in his life and was basing it off a statuette in his parent's horde).

*Deity voice* DM... know thy party! */Deity voice*

Sarone

2011-08-18, 08:56 PM

Sounds like a bad group since they have no dedicated healer/crowd control, plus the fact that the encounter was screwed from the get go after the first two encounters and the trap. You had DR constructs where the sorceror felt useless, which took out one party member. Not to mention that the equipment should have been better looked at so they would be more balanced.

You're expecting you players to be able to handle a creature when they never had the means or abilities to take it on. As for having the CR5 charging the group because "it" was bored, that is a no go.

In the end, yes, it's your fault. No, you shouldn't coddle them, but at the same time you should have a reasonable expectation on what they can and can't handle.

If I was in your game/campaign, I wouldn't be spending too much time in it after rerolling characters and getting my head near stomped after every other encounter. It encourages bad roleplaying and leads to roll playing and munchkinism.

Tetrasodium

2011-08-18, 08:57 PM

I'm not blaming them for lack of being prepared for everything. I'm blaming them for lack of being prepared for anything. They just don't put much thought into their gear at all. The Flind, for example, has a tendency to buy a wand of burning hands, which he openly considers useless and calls it his Zippo. The Sorcerer's gear just sucked altogether, and I don't think the Kenku even bought any gear beyond armor/weapon. The Wyrmling probably put the most thought into his choices, and even then they got kinda ridiculous, such as his hat of disguise. His usual disguise being a golden-haired cat wearing a fez (gold because he'd never seen a real cat in his life and was basing it off a statuette in his parent's horde).

so your saying the problem is that you failed to look at their gear and tell them they should make adjustments for your campaign then pressed the advantage on a badly designed encounter you left the players unprepared for when they were forced to retreat...

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 08:59 PM

so your saying the problem is that you failed to look at their gear and tell them they should make adjustments for your campaign then pressed the advantage on a badly designed encounter you left the players unprepared for when they were forced to retreat...

I generally don't look at my party's gear except to make sure they don't exceed WBL. I try to assume (wrongly, apparently) that people will learn from their mistakes and buy better gear once their poor selection leads to their downfall.

If I was in your game/campaign, I wouldn't be spending too much time in it after rerolling characters and getting my head near stomped after every other encounter. It encourages bad roleplaying and leads to roll playing and munchkinism.

And hopefully if you were in my campaign, you'd take the time to point out that this is annoying, instead of acting like you're totally okay with me giving you continuous sink-or-swim lessons until you figure things out. If my party asked for help I would give it to them. They haven't asked, so I've gotta assume that they're okay with the School of Hard Knocks. Especially since they've been religiously attending my games long enough that they should've left by now if it was intolerable.

Greenish

2011-08-18, 09:01 PM

If I was in your game/campaign, I wouldn't be spending too much time in it after rerolling characters and getting my head near stomped after every other encounter. It encourages bad roleplaying and leads to roll playing and munchkinism.On the other hand, someone else might see it as a challenge and shape up.

Just from reading, I'm itching to try to make a factotum prepared for anything. :smalltongue:

Talbot

2011-08-18, 09:01 PM

I generally don't look at my party's gear except to make sure they don't exceed WBL. I try to assume (wrongly, apparently) that people will learn from their mistakes and buy better gear once their poor selection leads to their downfall.

You've been playing with them, by your own admission, for over a year.

Again: DM... Know thy party!

Baroncognito

2011-08-18, 09:02 PM

If you jump AT someone it should be a charge. Sure it's a charge with a circumstance bonus, but you're leaping full into someone and trying to swat them.

If you rule it to be an object falling on someone they should receive the applicable Reflex save (at DC 15) to avoid it. To my mind this is the wrong call and the creature will probably be moving it's body to make contact with its foe not be a dumb rock falling from the ceiling.

I'd say that, unless the creature has a jump attack, jumping to land on something should require a jump check.

I'm sure that the creature would be trying to steer to make contact with the target. In that case, I'd take the creature's attack bonus, divide by 4 and add it to the DC. Take the creature's ranks in tumble, divide by 2, and add it to the DC.

But traps and falling objects only make attack rolls if they're already falling in the square the player is in. The canoloth has to manage to get to that square.

Tetrasodium

2011-08-18, 09:03 PM

I generally don't look at my party's gear except to make sure they don't exceed WBL. I try to assume (wrongly, apparently) that people will learn from their mistakes and buy better gear once their poor selection leads to their downfall.

so next time they bring a good aligned weapon & you kill them with a troll because they lack a fire/acid weapon or something? was the last time a dr/elec critter?

Yes you fail;ed as a DM by not making sure your fragile low level group even had the skills/abilities/equipment needed to take on the encounter you threw at them.

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 09:11 PM

so next time they bring a good aligned weapon & you kill them with a troll because they lack a fire/acid weapon or something? was the last time a dr/elec critter?

Last time was an intentionally overpowering encounter (CR 7 against ECL 3 party), which they only encountered by poking around a piece of background scenery and was pretty blatantly meant to be run from (an instinct that I would've hoped they had learned during my early campaigns that were blatantly survival horror). Unfortunately their flight response seems to be specifically geared towards Kytons (long story), so they stayed and fought.

And despite what some people like to say, I don't cause TPKs on a weekly basis. That last one took six sessions to get them all killed, the only other deaths occurring at the hands of spike pits (specifically, by climbing all over them for several rounds until you fumble a Climb Check) or a boss fight (to be expected).

Tetrasodium

2011-08-18, 09:29 PM

Last time was an intentionally overpowering encounter (CR 7 against ECL 3 party), which they only encountered by poking around a piece of background scenery and was pretty blatantly meant to be run from (an instinct that I would've hoped they had learned during my early campaigns that were blatantly survival horror). Unfortunately their flight response seems to be specifically geared towards Kytons (long story), so they stayed and fought.

And despite what some people like to say, I don't cause TPKs on a weekly basis. That last one took six sessions to get them all killed, the only other deaths occurring at the hands of spike pits (specifically, by climbing all over them for several rounds until you fumble a Climb Check) or a boss fight (to be expected).

and over the course of those six sessions, did you give them reason to suspect they might need a good aligned weapon or way to alter the damage tye of their breath weapon?... or was there failure to predict the future instead of expecting to be able to rely on the GM knowing they he need to do things like point the party towards a way to be prepared for the hellcube you intend to send them to? as to the previous encounter, did they even understand that it was a very inappropriate encounter? did you tell them to roll knowledge skills and suggest that the results gives hem reason to suspect that it would be an extremely good idea to run so they know to use knowledge skills in the future?.. did you fail at being a GM and not put in some clue to warn them about a potential TPK style encounter because they failed to read your mind once again.

It looks like your players tried to make interesting characters with personality from what little you told us, but your failures as a GM are curbstomping them.

If I were in your game, there is a very strong possibility that I would privately talk to them without you and try to lead them into letting me GM so they can grow ar players and enjoy their characters rather than get slaughtered without even so much as a "crap I should have kept that instead of selling it"what & if they want you invited to those games or not.

Safety Sword

2011-08-18, 09:31 PM

I'd say that, unless the creature has a jump attack, jumping to land on something should require a jump check.

Jump check to make it to the square, sure. Has nothing to do with an attack.

I'm sure that the creature would be trying to steer to make contact with the target. In that case, I'd take the creature's attack bonus, divide by 4 and add it to the DC. Take the creature's ranks in tumble, divide by 2, and add it to the DC.

That seems rather arbitrary to me. If you can make the square and you've a standard action remaining, you're entitled to an attack roll

But traps and falling objects only make attack rolls if they're already falling in the square the player is in. The canoloth has to manage to get to that square.

Already agreed. I still don't think this should be handled as per the "big falling objects" rules or traps rules, at all.

Dublock

2011-08-18, 09:56 PM

Dming can be hard sometimes. When I DM, I do look over the character sheets and offer some advice and I do occasionally play Devil's advocate with them to see if they defend themselves (But if they are new I'll help them out with my reasoning or get someone else to do it, help build OCC trust)

Sometimes you have to make changes to the setting to account for the players. My first time playing (a player) we had a ranger who dealt the most damage, a blaster wizard who didn't do a lot, a druid who felt useless (changed from a Sorc due to that feeling but still felt useless as a druid), a bard, and a heal bot (myself) who healed and tossed out summon monster once in a few sessions. We were the same as your party in some ways, but not a single character death. Just a different game.

And despite what some people like to say, I don't cause TPKs on a weekly basis. That last one took six sessions to get them all killed, the only other deaths occurring at the hands of spike pits (specifically, by climbing all over them for several rounds until you fumble a Climb Check) or a boss fight (to be expected).

My first time Dming (4E too no less) the only reason why I didn't TPK the party in Kobold hall is I lied about a crit which let the party live. TKP happens, I have NO idea how I managed that one still, they don't either :smalltongue:

Talbot

2011-08-18, 10:10 PM

Just for reference; six sessions is not an impressive length of time to go without a TPK. Six sessions might be only six encounters, or eighteen. Going by the (admittedly often ignored, including by me) suggestion that -what?- 6-8 encounters per level would get your players all the way to level 3 or 4 before you whacked 'em.

Again, TPKs are not inherently bad, and I once ran a campaign that nearly depended on them, as its purpose was always (and the players knew this) to be an extremely challenging one as well as an excuse to try out any fun/risky character concepts they might have. But this doesn't sound like that sort of campaign; this sounds like a conventional campaign in which you refuse to adapt your style to your party, and they, for whatever reason, are not learning from their repeated TPKs. If I were either DMing or playing in a series of campaigns that averaged a TPK every six sessions, I likely wouldn't be having a lot of fun, what with being completely unable to get really invested into any of the characters or the plot, but that's just me. Ultimately, if your players, after the TPK, said "That was awesome! When can we play again?" then you're not doing anything wrong. If they were bummed out... somewhat less so.

Caveat: all things considered, sometimes TPKs do JUST happen (barring fiat). A monster gets on a crit streak, somebody can't stop rolling ones, whatever. But it seems to happen to you with alarming frequency, so you may want to rethink some of the things you're doing/expecting.

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 10:15 PM

But it seems to happen to you with alarming frequency, so you may want to rethink some of the things you're doing/expecting.

That'd be why I'm here, really. It may not seem like I'm learning from my mistakes, either, but I'm mostly just trying to see how far I can go before I **** up, and then taking one less step the next time. At the very least I make a different mistake each time.

And on the other hand, sometimes I forget the more basic lessons, like "the party is a pack of irrational morons. Even when they aren't."

Talbot

2011-08-18, 10:17 PM

"... pack of irrational morons. Even when they aren't."

It's pronounced "player characters". But yes.

Shadowbane

2011-08-18, 10:17 PM

That'd be why I'm here, really. It may not seem like I'm learning from my mistakes, either, but I'm mostly just trying to see how far I can go before I **** up, and then taking one less step the next time. At the very least I make a different mistake each time.

And on the other hand, sometimes I forget the more basic lessons, like "the party is a pack of irrational morons. Even when they aren't."

Try not going so far, then. Since that don't seem to be working, change it. Come on. And that second part? If you have to have it written on your hands and arms then by Crom do so.

DrDeth

2011-08-18, 10:39 PM

Talbot

2011-08-18, 10:44 PM

It's also the DM's job to know the rules, and not make crud up on the fly.

A lot of what you said is right, but this isn't. A DM's job is to do both, ideally, but not necessarily, in a complimentary fashion. Rule 0 is a rule for a reason.

Safety Sword

2011-08-18, 10:45 PM

A lot of what you said is right, but this isn't. A DM's job is to do both, ideally, but not necessarily, in a complimentary fashion. Rule 0 is a rule for a reason.

If you need to make it up it should still make sense. Crud is crud. And bad for business.

DrDeth

2011-08-18, 10:46 PM

A lot of what you said is right, but this isn't. A DM's job is to do both, ideally, but not necessarily, in a complimentary fashion. Rule 0 is a rule for a reason.

Yes, but constructs are still immune to crits. And, the falling damage thing really worked against the PC's and is not in the rules. It was a bad call. It also sounded like the DM did that as he was bored.

Talbot

2011-08-18, 10:48 PM

I'm not necessarily defending his specific decisions so much as his right to make them; IMO the falling damage thing is a reasonable judgment call if you don't know the rule off hand (and considering the amount of discussion in this thread about it, obviously a lot of people don't). Now, granted, I don't think the situation that necessitated making that call should ever have happened, but that's not really the point.

And I've had a DM who allowed crits on constructs (and some undead) before. Believe it or not, it didn't ruin the game.

Drakevarg

2011-08-18, 10:54 PM

Yes, but constructs are still immune to crits.

And had I remembered that at the time they would have died even sooner. I'm not shedding any tears over that one.

And, the falling damage thing really worked against the PC's and is not in the rules.

There ARE rules for damage dealt by falling objects. I just took those and extrapolated from them. The fact that it was a bad idea to do that to the players I do not dispute. How I did it I have zero issues with.

Tetrasodium

2011-08-18, 11:08 PM

And had I remembered that at the time they would have died even sooner. I'm not shedding any tears over that one.

You threw the unprepared players into a construct heavy dungeon without knowing what the constructs are capable of by virtue of simply have the construct subtype. How can you know if they are even appropriate to your players without knowing about them. If you had a party of 3 where the rogue did 90% of the damage and threw constructs at them expecting a similar level of DPR from the trio, you would probably tpk them as a result

Tvtyrant

2011-08-18, 11:44 PM

I think some of you guys are being a little abrasive.

My suggestion for Psycho is to use encounter levels that are a step below the party. Here (http://www.penpaperpixel.org/tools/d20encountercalculator.htm)is a source for calculating it; note that not using anything in the Monster Manual II or the Fiendish Codex will improve the viability of as is CR.

So taking a party of level 3s, an encounter of 5-6 basic goblins would be good considering the parties experience level.

Baroncognito

2011-08-19, 02:43 AM

That seems rather arbitrary to me. If you can make the square and you've a standard action remaining, you're entitled to an attack roll

I still don't think this should be handled as per the "big falling objects" rules or traps rules, at all.

I don't believe so either, but I also don't think that throwing your entire body at someone at the bottom of a hole should be handled just like any other attack.

Xtomjames

2011-08-19, 06:34 AM

Technically, encounters don't have CR. :smalltongue:

Not true, though it is called an Encounter Level, it is essentially the challenge rating of the encounter. The Book of Challenges defines EL of traps and total EL (or CR) of an encounter based on both the number of traps and monsters encountered. A dungeon's EL can then be defined by the total EL of traps puzzles and pitfalls plus the total CR of all the monsters averaged.

Thus the encounter as described to that point presuming it was a total and whole dungeon would have had a total EL of 6 in total.

**

On the other hand, if the party had rested and healed after the elevator, wouldn't the CR have dropped back down to 6 (or 7 if you think the pit was that much of an issue)?

Had they rested for 24 hours and got their spells back and had the chance to heal completely the CR might have been closer to 7. That's still way too high of a CR though for a party of level 5 characters.

At low levels things stack up really quick against them. A pit (without spikes) has an EL 5 on its own, with spikes the EL goes to 6, especially with the elevator as it was.

The thing is that in all of the description you gave, you didn't once mention rolls to notice the traps that existed. Spot and Listen checks can still be used to denote traps even for non-rogue classes.

Greenish

2011-08-19, 06:44 AM

Not true, though it is called an Encounter LevelQuite. :smalltongue:

Spot and Listen checks can still be used to denote traps even for non-rogue classes.Nope. Search is used to find traps, and you don't get an automatic check.

Xtomjames

2011-08-19, 06:49 AM

“After escaping a "Hellcube" of lethal traps followed by continuous resurrection,” Sounds like fun. Not.

“After spending about half an hour trying to force a large stone door open” more not fun.

“Eventually the Flind stopped fumbling..” no such thing as fumbles in the RAW.

4 “…killed the Blade Guardian in a single 50-damage crit”= constructs are immune to crits

“the Sorcerer had stayed in the hall because none of his spells were effective against constructs> Geez- the “not fun” never stops.

“the Cano lost patience and flung itself from the chute, dropping like a boulder on the Wyrmling's head and knocking him out” there’s no rule for this in the RAW. Falling damage? The Cano wasn;t falling he was trying to attack, a huge difference. What he was trying to do is covered in the rules- see "Bull Rush". How much damage does that do? If he had been a rock, figure it as follows a large dog sized creatures takes up maybe 6 sq ft, a cat sized dragon maybe 3 square feet, what's the chance of that 6 sq ft hitting those 3 sq ft in a 25 sq ft area? Less than 1 in five. And, why couldn't the dragon dodge a falling object?

“The CR 6 Blade Guardians were a bit rough, yeah, but supposedly a CR 5 Cano shouldn't be able to utterly destroy a 5th level party with nary a scratch beyond the self-inflicted impact wounds”. Umm, why is the 5th level sorc limited to 1st level spells? Well, becuase he's not a 5th level sorc, he's a 3rd level sorc. You selected a monster immune to two of the PC’s attacks. Later, you selected a monster immune to everyone's attacks- except the flind

It also looks like the party was low level but with scads of LA & racial HD- a Drow Sorc, Wyrmling White Dragon, a flind Barb, etc. LA doesn;t really work at such low levels. Also the monster had a large tactical advantage, which boosted it's CR.

LA & racial HD do not make a real good measure of the CR of the party. As you pointed out the Drow Sorc was more or less useless. His spell selection wasn’t that horrible. Let us assume he had Magic Missle for a whopping 2D4.Useless vs the constructs, and nigh useless vs the cano who has SR 18.

tyckspoon makes some excellent points. So does Sarone.

There's no reasonable assortment of spells that a 3rd level sorc could have taken that would have turned the tide. There's no reasonable equipt that would have turned the tide either. Sure, having a healer instead of the dragon would have been nice, that's about the only poor decision they made. Well, other than the dec to play high LA PC's, but that was your decision also.

So- your job as the DM is to throw challenging and fun encounters at the Players. In the encounters, 3 of 4 of the PC's were useless. Against the constructs, the sorc would have been useless no matter what spell or euipt he took, the kenku was useless (no sneak attack) , and the dragon was marginal. that left the flind.

In the cano encounter, the dragon was useless, the sorc was useless, and the kenku nearly so.

So- not "challenging", not 'fun"- just boring badly done and deadly.

It's also the DM's job to know the rules, and not make crud up on the fly.

Really, you need to apologize to your players, and tell them you'll do better. If they pick poor PC choices or poor equipt- help them. They were not inept.

It's not "coddling"- it's being a Good DM. Trust me, I have made the same mistakes you have. (not hard to do, I have been DMing for 0ver 35 years)

Couple of points; There are rules for falling objects, this includes monsters, NPCs, and PCs.

Two: Constant Resurrection would have caused permanent Con damage resulting in weaker characters (-2 each resurrection). If PCs each were resurrected by RAW rules more than three times they'd have been considered First Level again, more than that and they'd be inept.

Three: Not all constructs are immune to Crits. While the general construction of Constructs is that they are, I do believe the Blade Guardian is one of the few exceptions, further he might have been using the term Critical Hit as in reference to a Natural 20 being an automatic hit and thus being able to do damage (though how he was able to do 50 damage, if in fact the Blade Guardian is immune to Crits is another matter entirely)

ECL versus Actual Functionality is a farce (there is a reason why Pathfinder got rid of it). Hit Dice doesn't equate Capability, especially at low level level adjustments. Any creature with an LA of 3 or less don't even bother with the ECL in a game (RAW be damned in this respect). Base your CRs purely on class level.

Five: However, I will note this, there are plenty of First Level spells that could have been used by the Sorcerer had he known what was to come and had taken them specifically (Lesser Orbs for example), buffs and a personal healing spell. In this respect DrDeth's comment makes sense only if he were to state "...considering they didn't know what was to come..." There was plenty of reasonable equipment that could have turned the tide, plenty for their level. (Especially since ECL determines starting gold, not actual level.) Each of them could have had a wand of cure light or moderate wounds. The tank could have had a ring of fast healing or regeneration. Any or all of them could have had Mist Chain which grants Fly three times a day. If any of them had Adamantine weapons they could have attempted to sunder the Blade Guardian.

What it is, for the party type (meaning people who don't plan ahead and don't optimize) the CR/EL of the encounters were too great. The DM (OP) should have known this, is it completely his fault, no. The players should have though their characters out more.

Quite. :smalltongue:

Nope. Search is used to find traps, and you don't get an automatic check.

While search is used to find traps, and you're correct they don't get an automatic search, that does not mean the party can't try to search on their own accord. And since they had a Barbarian in the party which would have had Trap Sense by this point, it seems to me that a gentile nudge by the DM to get him to search for the Traps in question would have been a good idea.

ILM

2011-08-19, 07:12 AM

Out of curiosity, how did you manage the floor trap? Was is just "Oh guys, the floor suddenyl opens up beneath your feet and you FAAAaaaaaaaall!!" or did you have something more interactive? Reflex saves to grab the wall, Climb check to hold on? If the floor opened slowly (as opposed to snapping wide), a round to cast whatever could have been useful? Hell, Spot checks when they entered to see that the floor had a weirdly even or symmetrical crack running through?

It may not seem like I'm learning from my mistakes, either, but I'm mostly just trying to see how far I can go before I **** up, and then taking one less step the next time. At the very least I make a different mistake each time.
Have you tried the opposite? Starting low and then slowly heating things up until you reach something that feels like they're getting a challenge but aren't so obviously out of their depth? Added bonus: as you slowly adjust, they get time to learn how the game works.

Greenish

2011-08-19, 07:58 AM

Three: Not all constructs are immune to Crits.Yes, they are, except for Living Construct subtype.

I do believe the Blade Guardian is one of the few exceptionsThey're not.

And since they had a Barbarian in the party which would have had Trap Finding by this pointBarbarians don't get Trapfinding by default, and even if they had the savvy to go for the Dungeonscape ACF that grants it, that's at Barbarian 3, their barbarian was only 1st level.

Tyndmyr

2011-08-19, 08:49 AM

Probably. But I figured I should find out exactly in what way it was my fault.

Last weekend ended in a TPK. After escaping a "Hellcube" of lethal traps followed by continuous resurrection

What? This is a bit confusing...and yeah, I suppose any deaths in there are your fault...but what's the value in killing them all followed by continuous resurrection? I'm afraid I don't understand what purpose this serves.

Were they all fully healed as they left this? A wounded party crumples a lot faster than a healthy one.

, the party found themselves in a dungeon of unknown purpose, which architecturally looked like a mix between the Forerunners from Halo and the Grid from Tron: Legacy. After spending about half an hour trying to force a large stone door open, the found themselves standing face-to-face with a Blade Guardian. The construct was unexpectedly proficient at handing their asses to them, nearly killing the Drow Sorcerer and bringing the Flind Barbarian within one attack of unconsciousness on several occasions.

Drow sorc vs construct...yeah, thus is generally going to end badly at lower levels. LA + sorc hit die = squishy. Golems and constructs tend to be solid fights for their CR.

...next golem fight...Did they heal fully after this fight, and how low were their other resources(spells, etc?)

At this point the last of the party entered the room (the Sorcerer had stayed in the hall because none of his spells were effective against constructs), and the floor beneath them revealed itself to be an elevator, beginning to move up the chute. At the top, it opened up beneath them into a 40-foot spiked pit. Everyone fell with the exception of the Wyrmling White Dragon, who simply flew. The Sorcerer got a feather fall off, but still took damage from the spikes.

Well, that's an encounter in it's own right, of course. Did anyone have a search check to detect this trap?

Also, why does this dungeon have an elevator/spiked pit thing keyed to the exact number of people the party has? This seems a touch arbitrary.

Did they heal after this encounter/have adequate other resources left?

At this point the Wyrmling decided to begin hit-and-run attacks against the Cano by flying up, using his breath weapon, and flying back down to recharge. When he finally realized that his breath was little more than an annoyance due to the Cano's cold resistance, he opted to stay at the bottom of the chute.

So, you've got one extremely squishy party member, and another party member that's essentially ineffective against it. Ok. That's a bit of difficulty there, yes.

Two major problems present themselves to me immediately:
-The only source of healing the party had was a single wand, juggled to whoever was otherwise the most useless at the time.

In combat healing is terrible. Would a better heal than the CLW really have made the wyrmling more effective? No...the bite would still have either killed him or knocked him out.

Anything else that could've been handled better? The thing that baffles me about this is that the entire ordeal was, theoretically, level-appropriate. The CR 6 Blade Guardians were a bit rough, yeah, but supposedly a CR 5 Cano shouldn't be able to utterly destroy a 5th level party with nary a scratch beyond the self-inflicted impact wounds of the dive bomb attempt.

Favorable terrain adds a +2 CR. Ambushes are also typically considered favorable for what, another +2? These modifiers are in the DMG.

Additionally, if the trap encounter blended with the fight, they become one encounter and should be calculated as such.

Furthermore, even when following CR, you do need to compare monsters to the party. For instance, if it's a melee only party, then a shadow is a bad choice at level three, despite being an equal CR fight.

[Edit]: The Drow Sorcerer's spell list:

Level 0-
Detect Magic
Acid Splash
Daze
Ghost Sounds
Message
Read Magic

These are all good and useful choices. No problem here.

Level 1-
Backbiter
Burning Hands
Jump
True Strike
Chill Touch
Feather Fall

I'm not a big fan of Chill Touch, and backbiter isn't my personal style. Jump I also prefer expeditious retreat for(but that requires a bit of knowledge to sort out). The rest of these spells are on my routinely prepared list. This really isn't a bad selection at all.

No, his problem is mostly that he's a sorc with LA at level 5. That hurts. Sorc 4 is the weakest point of the class. *shrug* Every class has a different power curve, and it's important to know where your party's total power is, and what they can handle.

CR is a great start, but it isn't everything.

Tyndmyr

2011-08-19, 09:07 AM

Oh, also, in answer to your question, Yes, it is your fault.

I got so caught up in the why's and advice that I forgot to answer the question. Your players were not unreasonable. You built the encounters. TPK resulted from that. It wasn't due to extreme luck, but encounter design. Therefore, your fault.

This happens, though. Encounter design is not something people always get right at first, and you can easily improve it.

First off, I suggest putting aside your "carebear" concerns and lowering difficulty across the board. You've had a lot of TPK threads, so this is a recurring problem. An overall lowered difficulty level is almost certainly going to be helpful in avoiding this.

Andorax

2011-08-19, 12:37 PM

Are you trying to justify your marginally-within-the-rules slaying of the entire party as being fair within the rules?

Is a TPK fun? For anyone?

Just for a case-in-point, I had a situation recently come up that could well have come out as a TPK. Party fighting on the open-top surface of a tower against a Lamia Matriarch* Sorceror, and the fight wasn't going well. Multiple PCs teetering on the edge of negatives. 1 (of the 5) players out that evening, the party's Psion.

Party's knight sees where this is going, and seeking to pull the fight out, bull-rushes the Lamia Matriarch off the edge of the tower.

As the players saw it: Bull rush was successful, Matriarch received a grapple check to grab the knight with the tip of her tail and pull the knight down with her. Psion hits the knight with a psionic levitate and pulls her up to safety. A mystery remains, as there was no corpse when they got back down to ground level.

RAW: The Psion having a readied action to levitate the knight was pure DM-fudging. The Lamia had 80+ hps left and would have survived the 20d6 fall. Worst of all...unbeknownst to the players...the Lamia had Fly already cast...she should have laughed off the attempt, floated up the next round, and proceeded to puncture the rest of the PCs. I have no doubt it would have been a TPK.

Instead, it was a victory the likes of which the players will talk about for months, the missing player will regret having missed, and none the wiser that I pulled them out of the fire for the sake of telling a good story.

*Pathfinder #2. Short answer: half-snake woman with spellcasing and a nasty polearm for melee smack.

Setting aside expecting a morally-marginal party to have oil of bless weapon (the just-right preparatory item) and throwing a cold-resistant foe with a PC who's principle means of effectiveness is dealing cold damage. Setting aside the crippling effects LA has at low levels in terms of fragile PCs and poor role-coverage has on party endurance (yes, typically, a party can handle 4 level-appropriate encounters in a row. That's assuming normal composition and role coverage, which they seriously lack).

Even given all of that, you fudged rules in FAVOR of a TPK outcome, not in order to avoid it. The only effective PC was down, your leap-attack was horribly damning to the wyrmling that was doing little more than annoy the Cano. Alternate strategy might have been crouching at the edge and readying an action to tongue-attack anyone who comes over the lip, or even wandering off (they're not so bright, but they probably won't fling themselves into pits).

Ultimately, the big question in my mind is...at the moment when you decided to do your flying leap attack and come up with a rules interpretation to make it work, what were you thinking?

Were you still thinking "how do I beat these guys"? Or were you thinking "Ok, this situation is going downhill quick...how do I salvage it?"

Gnaeus

2011-08-19, 02:04 PM

Have the new clones enter play faster, and don't make them fight Can-O-MRF until they have visited R&D for some effective weapons. The sorcerer couldn't learn what his spells did before he used them, reading the books is treason!

Varil

2011-08-19, 02:47 PM

I think the biggest thing is how much advice are you giving players? Your play style is fine, I think. A little harsh, but if your players are having fun then that's mostly irrelevant.

My own group started out pretty incompetent, but they're starting to get better, at least in part because I tend to give advice and help them construct their characters. "You should try this, it'll bump up your damage and..." etc, etc. If a character is flagging I tend to try and figure out why and fix that.

Essentially, your characters are idiots, but do you bring it up with them? Maybe not like that. But the shocking-sword Sorcerer? Totally should have said something.

The spell selection was okay, actually, a low level sorcerer isn't going to DPS or even regularly pull of decent battle-field control, so the general support idea isn't a bad one. It may be why he went for the sword, so he had a 'backup plan'. If he wanted a more "gish" Sorcerer, you might have pointed him towards Duskblade, or the Sorcerer ACFs that make them more fighty. There are a couple, Stalwart Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer. I forget what books, though. One is probably in PHBII? Eh.

If he didn't want 'fighty' he just wanted 'backup plan', you could have pointed him towards crossbows(or bows? Are Drow proficient in bows? I forget.)

Mention to the Flind player that he needs to watch out for DR, and start by directing him towards special materials and ways to handle it.

In addition to giving advice, see if you can't find an opportunity to play alongside them. If one of them is interested in DMing, that'd be a good opportunity.

Even if not, try throwing more NPCs at them over monsters. Once they defeat them, feel free to show them what they were up against, taking it as an opportunity to discuss character design and tactics. Try to challenge them with lower level, under-equipped NPCs, in order to show case the advantages of a strong build instead of just overpowering them. Most importantly in this case, don't build the NPCs *just* to conquer them, build something a player could realistically be expected to build.

As an added bonus, equip it with the sort of things they *should* be buying, feel free to mention why the NPC had it, why it was useful to the build and how it could be used to overcome standard adventuring challenges.

I do agree that if you're using the falling damage rules for a monster attack, the players should get the reflex save instead of the monster making an attack roll, unless maybe the monster has some way to control its descent, but eh. Mistakes happen.

Baroncognito

2011-08-19, 05:36 PM

DrDeth

2011-08-19, 08:57 PM

Couple of points; There are rules for falling objects, this includes monsters, NPCs, and PCs.

l.

Five: However, I will note this, there are plenty of First Level spells that could have been used by the Sorcerer had he known what was to come and had taken them specifically (Lesser Orbs for example), buffs and a personal healing spell. In this respect DrDeth's comment makes sense only if he were to state "...considering they didn't know what was to come..." There was plenty of reasonable equipment that could have turned the tide, plenty for their level. (Especially since ECL determines starting gold, not actual level.) Each of them could have had a wand of cure light or moderate wounds. The tank could have had a ring of fast healing or regeneration. Any or all of them could have had Mist Chain which grants Fly three times a day. If any of them had Adamantine weapons they could have attempted to sunder the Blade Guardian.

What it is, for the party type (meaning people who don't plan ahead and don't optimize) the CR/EL of the encounters were too great. The DM (OP) should have known this, is it completely his fault, no. The players should have though their characters out more.

While search is used to find traps, and you're correct they don't get an automatic search, that does not mean the party can't try to search on their own accord. And since they had a Barbarian in the party which would have had Trap Finding by this point, it seems to me that a gentile nudge by the DM to get him to search for the Traps in question would have been a good idea.

1- Yes there are rules for what damage you take when you fall. There are no rules for a monster trying to fall on you.

2. Lesser Orb? Sure, 1d8 of elemental damage that the Cano was likely resistant to. But there’s also nothing that indicates that had any indication they knew what was coming (and PC’s don’t have that luxury very often). Sorc’s don’t have a personal healing spell of any real use.

3. Ring of fast healing is 300000, Ring of Regen is 90000. Only two of them could have used the wands- and that’s only with UMD maxed out.

4. How could they have know what Monsters were ahead?

5. I still don’t know how the Kenku rogue could have missed that trap.

And Psycho, I want to point out you just came from a game with a TPK due to “Everyone died when they were in that buried city of magic thing. Happened when I failed to consider that DR 10/Magic is going to play hell on a monster's CR when you pit it against an entirely nonmagical party.”

And again, you failed to consider monsters against whom the parties attacks would be mostly useless.

I understand- people are critizing you, some perhaps a tad too harshly. But you-wisely- came here and asked for help. Accept this help in the spirit in which it is offered, and try not to be too defensive.

You messed up, sure- but you're learning, and you thought enough to ask for help. Heck, I made the same mistakes some 20-30 years ago, but I wasn't wise enough to ask for help. You're already one leg up on an old grognard like me.

Drakevarg

2011-08-20, 02:21 AM

Not gonna bother backtracking to answer posts since I think I've already gleaned most of the useful advice, but I've fixed up the encounters for the dungeon for tomorrow's retry (or next weekends, if CharGen takes too long). I'll actually be guiding them through the process instead of my usual "try swimming it again, only this time drown less" approach, but this should be a handy buffer zone in case that doesn't work.

-All the Blade Guardians have been replaced with Warforged Fighter 5s (thus reducing the CR by 1), and removing the one on the elevator entirely (the spike pit is enough of an encounter).

-The Canoloths have been replaced with Hellhounds, once again reducing their CR by 1.

-The Barbezu, which the PCs didn't get far enough to meet, have been replaced with Canoloths. Since they don't start appearing until they get past the elevator puzzle, that should be an obvious place to rest before taking these on.

-The final boss of the dungeon was a Gloom Golem. Based on their performance so far, this would have utterly destroyed them since it was meant to be a really tough fight to begin with. It's been replaced with a Barbezu Fighter 1. (I want them to get used to the idea of Devils with class levels since they'll be the stock bad guy of the campaign, and this way I can just keep upping the class level instead of having them learn a new enemy type.)

Unfortunately, this also greatly reduces the total XP in the dungeon, meaning I'll have to recalculate the dungeon I'd mapped out after this one. It was explicitly intended to take them to Level 7 before they got out.

(They already reached level 6 by beating the Hellcube, but I houserule that they don't get the benefits of a new level until they have time to train and cement what they've learned on the road. I'm considering altering this so they get the new BAB and HD or whatever, but still don't get special abilities until they train for them. Still thinking that one over.)

Sarone

2011-08-20, 02:30 AM

Talbot

2011-08-20, 02:34 AM

-The Barbezu, which the PCs didn't get far enough to meet, have been replaced with Canoloths. Since they don't start appearing until they get past the elevator puzzle, that should be an obvious place to rest before taking these on.

The pluralizing worries me; one of those things completely dominated them last time; I'd start with just one to make sure their new builds/party dynamic can handle it. You can always throw in more later if the first one is too easy.

- (I want them to get used to the idea of Devils with class levels since they'll be the stock bad guy of the campaign, and this way I can just keep upping the class level instead of having them learn a new enemy type.)

That's good DMing, and understanding your party. Smart move.

Unfortunately, this also greatly reduces the total XP in the dungeon, meaning I'll have to recalculate the dungeon I'd mapped out after this one. It was explicitly intended to take them to Level 7 before they got out.

EXP is the single easiest thing to fiat away, and the one that influences the game the least. Make up the difference in RP bonus Exp or Teamwork bonus Exp or just lie to them; they're not gonna check your math, and there's no need to rebuild your next dungeon because you had to change the math a little.

(They already reached level 6 by beating the Hellcube, but I houserule that they don't get the benefits of a new level until they have time to train and cement what they've learned on the road. I'm considering altering this so they get the new BAB and HD or whatever, but still don't get special abilities until they train for them. Still thinking that one over.)

I would... completely do away with this, with these PCs, honestly. It's a cool idea and I get where you're coming from, but they seem to be struggling to begin with. Maybe wait till they actually finish a campaign, then institute it for the next one to make things more challenging?

Drakevarg

2011-08-20, 02:34 AM

I know this isn't our place, but I'm curious to what they'll be playing. If you have the time, and if it's ok with you and your players, can you post what they have as far as characters go?

This way, we can critique it before they go too far, highlight some glaring problems, and maybe even problems that you or them may not have noticed.

Sure, no problem. I'm guessing they'll play more or less the same stuff. (The Kenku, in every single campaign I've run with her, has ALWAYS been either a Rogue or Ranger. The Flind is more often than not a tank, and when possible a big badass wolf man (Gnolls are fluffed as lupine in my games). Wyrmling is usually some flavor of blaster.)

The pluralizing worries me; one of those things completely dominated them last time; I'd start with just one to make sure their new builds/party dynamic can handle it. You can always throw in more later if the first one is too easy.

They're spread throughout the dungeon; every single encounter in this particular one is a single monster.

EXP is the single easiest thing to fiat away, and the one that influences the game the least. Make up the difference in RP bonus Exp or Teamwork bonus Exp or just lie to them; they're not gonna check your math, and there's no need to rebuild your next dungeon because you had to change the math a little.

I generally do allow them to ding if the ammount of XP in a dungeon is "close enough" to the next cap. For example, I think even before my modifications this one landed about 50 xp short. I make up the difference in quest XP. However, I still like it to be ballpark, meaning roughly within a single level-appropriate encounter of leveling properly.

EDIT: Moot point anyway. The lowered difficulty is still sufficient to hit Level 7, as planned. This probably has something to do with miscalculations in the initial planning stage (which mostly consisted of scibbles in my pocket notebook). It was drawn as a profile of the entire dungeon (which is basically the elevator shaft with several surrounding hallways), which didn't take into consideration that the hallways always come in sets of four.

Sarone

2011-08-22, 05:57 PM

Any word on how the party is doing now?

Safety Sword

2011-08-22, 06:42 PM

Any word on how the party is doing now?

Dead apparently :smallbiggrin:

Drakevarg

2011-08-23, 01:21 AM

We'll find out tomorrow, after I get the rest of the group to finish their new round of CharGen. So far the Flind rolled another Flind Barbarian, the Kenku rolled a Shifter Ranger, and the Drow rolled a Human Cleric.

We'll see how the other three do. (There are actually six people in the group, but one was on vacation in Canada and the other was visiting his family on the res.)

Sarone

2011-08-27, 02:42 PM

Drakevarg

2011-08-28, 12:06 AM

Well, it's been a week. What's the latest?

Ah, right, I figured you'd stopped caring.

Anywho, ran a session today with zero deaths! [/sarcasticfanfare] Turns out Hellhounds are really, really weak.

The new characters are:

Flind Barbarian --> Flind Barbarian 1
Kenku Rogue --> Shifter Ranger 5
Drow Sorcerer --> Human Cleric 5
Wyrmling White Dragon --> Grey Elf Warmage 5

Plus an Elf Bard 5 from the guy who just got back from the res and had no character for the last run. Canadian vacation guy didn't turn up. Considering booting him, since he's missed every session since he joined with the exception of the CharGen ones.

All-in-all, they're performing well above my expectations. With heals coming from three different directions (the Cleric and the Bard both have healing spells, and the Cleric and Warmage both have wands of cure light wounds) the risk of fatalities seem pretty barring some impressive bouts of stupidity, and the Warmage and Barbarian are being fairly effective powerhouses.

My only issues would be that the Bard is almost entirely useless (partially because he spends most of the session spaced out) and the Ranger is almost as bad. She participates, but her damage output is simply terrible. 1d8+2 is rather paltry next to the hail of stone/scorching ray spamming Warmage and the Flind Barbarian with his Pyramid Head sword (Which just occurred to me should be doing 4d6+13 a pop, since it's already a Large Greatsword (Monkey Grip) and he habitually uses a wand of enlarge self).

Tetrasodium

2011-08-28, 09:51 AM

Ah, right, I figured you'd stopped caring.

Anywho, ran a session today with zero deaths! [/sarcasticfanfare] Turns out Hellhounds are really, really weak.

The new characters are:

Flind Barbarian --> Flind Barbarian 1
Kenku Rogue --> Shifter Ranger 5
Drow Sorcerer --> Human Cleric 5
Wyrmling White Dragon --> Grey Elf Warmage 5

Plus an Elf Bard 5 from the guy who just got back from the res and had no character for the last run. Canadian vacation guy didn't turn up. Considering booting him, since he's missed every session since he joined with the exception of the CharGen ones.

All-in-all, they're performing well above my expectations. With heals coming from three different directions (the Cleric and the Bard both have healing spells, and the Cleric and Warmage both have wands of cure light wounds) the risk of fatalities seem pretty barring some impressive bouts of stupidity, and the Warmage and Barbarian are being fairly effective powerhouses.

My only issues would be that the Bard is almost entirely useless (partially because he spends most of the session spaced out) and the Ranger is almost as bad. She participates, but her damage output is simply terrible. 1d8+2 is rather paltry next to the hail of stone/scorching ray spamming Warmage and the Flind Barbarian with his Pyramid Head sword (Which just occurred to me should be doing 4d6+13 a pop, since it's already a Large Greatsword (Monkey Grip) and he habitually uses a wand of enlarge self).

Tell us about the hellhound encounter, I have a feeling I know why yours were so "weak". and the mistake you might be making down the road because of it

The Glyphstone

2011-08-28, 09:59 AM

Ah, right, I figured you'd stopped caring.

It's the same reason people watch NASCAR - you know the massive crash is coming, and that's the funnest part?:smallcool:

LansXero

2011-08-28, 10:14 AM

the Ranger is almost as bad. She participates, but her damage output is simply terrible. 1d8+2 is rather paltry

Well, do remind her the range on her bow is like 110 feet so she doesnt really need to move and should be taking advantage of the free rapid shot from her ranger levels. Or suggest her to mix it up with scout levels, for skirmish damage when she does move more than 5 feet.

BlackestOfMages

2011-08-28, 10:21 AM

about the ranger, you have to remeber it's a class that's not entierly about dishing out damage, as opposed to the warmage/barbarian, which is pretty much all they have:smallwink:

also, what favoured eney did the ranger take, as that can make a big impact upon their performance (ok, not big, but you get the idea...)

don't forget the ranger is a usefull chaarcter in a non-combat situation, what with being one of two party memebrs capable of remaining un-noticed by opponents, which could be usefull for letting the PCs do the ambushing for once:smallbiggrin: and if you want to make him/her sefull, try suggesting a dip or two in rogue for some sneak attacks :smallbiggrin:

also, if you think about it, the hellhounds are 1 cr less than the fights from the last session/thingy, the party composition is a LOT better, and there's one more player than the was before, all of which will contribute to making it easier. considering there's now 5 of them, maybe reupgrading to the previous enemies may be a fair action.

Sarone

2011-08-28, 01:43 PM

It's the same reason people watch NASCAR - you know the massive crash is coming, and that's the funnest part?:smallcool:

Yeah, that's about it.

Also, while it sounds like they have the healing down, it doesn't sound like they have very much in damage prevention (Mage Armor, Shield of Faith, and the like).

Also, while the reanger may not be throwing out enough damage, consider this: the class is for those that like to do multiple things pretty decent. Unless you gave every one Spot/Listen/Search (or Perception if you're play PF) skills, the Ranger will have those and should max them out. Due to the animal companion she'll be getting later on, she can add numbers to the group as well as flanking buddies for the frontliners (as long as the healers heal it as well). Like the Bard, the Ranger is a force multiplier that shouldn't be considered to be weak because of "damage output".

As for the bard, it happens. But as long as he does his thing, healing, buffing, and debuffing, there's not a whole lot you can do with him.

Other than pull a Gamer's and give the group a staff or resurrection, then turn the bard into clone army and slaughter them all. :biggrin:

Drakevarg

2011-08-28, 08:21 PM

Tell us about the hellhound encounter, I have a feeling I know why yours were so "weak". and the mistake you might be making down the road because of it

They opened the door and spotted the Hellhound chilling in the hallway. The Warmage won initiative, and dropped a fell weaken hail of stone on its head. Drops the Hellhound down to 3 hp. Barbarian swings and misses. Hellhound uses breath weapon, only dealing 3 damage. Warmage drops another hail of stone on its head. Hellhound becomes smear on floor.

Well, do remind her the range on her bow is like 110 feet so she doesnt really need to move and should be taking advantage of the free rapid shot from her ranger levels. Or suggest her to mix it up with scout levels, for skirmish damage when she does move more than 5 feet.

Range is less than helpful in a dungeon made mostly up of narrow corridors that are 50 ft. long, max. Might come in handy later though. As for the Scout, it's not in my books (if I could find the remaining "Complete" books I'd buy them in a heartbeat, but I can't) so she's not allowed to use it.

also, what favoured eney did the ranger take, as that can make a big impact upon their performance (ok, not big, but you get the idea...)

No clue what her favored enemy is. Probably either something generic (animals, humans) or optimized to this particular dungeon (constructs or evil outsiders). Though she's not mentioned it in any of her attack/damage calculations, which means it's either not keyed to constructs/evil outsiders, or she just keeps forgetting it.

also, if you think about it, the hellhounds are 1 cr less than the fights from the last session/thingy, the party composition is a LOT better, and there's one more player than the was before, all of which will contribute to making it easier. considering there's now 5 of them, maybe reupgrading to the previous enemies may be a fair action.

Very possibly maybe. Though the Hellhounds are the weakest things in here, and there's only 3 more of them. I think the Canos still running around are a decent challenge, and I still think bringing the Gloom Golem back as the final boss would utterly destroy them.

Tetrasodium

2011-08-28, 11:03 PM

They opened the door and spotted the Hellhound chilling in the hallway. The Warmage won initiative, and dropped a fell weaken hail of stone on its head. Drops the Hellhound down to 3 hp. Barbarian swings and misses. Hellhound uses breath weapon, only dealing 3 damage. Warmage drops another hail of stone on its head. Hellhound becomes smear on floor.

In that situation You did something similar to the hellhound as you did to the party by throwing the cold resistant critter at a party with lots of cold based spells/abilities. The hellhound is dangerous not because of it's lack of ability to act as a doorguard/brute. In fact it would be massively overpowered if it could act as one given its other abilities... Specifically it has massive (for the level) hide/move silent skills and pretty high movement speed (40) allowing it (or a pack of them) to be far more powerful using hit & run guerrilla type tactics in environments more favorable than an empty well lit hallway. Had it not been behind the 9-ball from the get-go it could have attacked before anyone even knew it was doing so and started running off to lick any wounds it got from whomever it was unlucky enough to be in back blocking line of sight between everyone else and it... then doubling back unseen to repeat the process until it decided it had enough. Had you done it with three at once working as a pack like that, they probably would have mopped the floor with the party.

Sarone

2011-08-28, 11:35 PM

In that situation You did something similar to the hellhound as you did to the party by throwing the cold resistant critter at a party with lots of cold based spells/abilities. The hellhound is dangerous not because of it's lack of ability to act as a doorguard/brute. In fact it would be massively overpowered if it could act as one given its other abilities... Specifically it has massive (for the level) hide/move silent skills and pretty high movement speed (40) allowing it (or a pack of them) to be far more powerful using hit & run guerrilla type tactics in environments more favorable than an empty well lit hallway. Had it not been behind the 9-ball from the get-go it could have attacked before anyone even knew it was doing so and started running off to lick any wounds it got from whomever it was unlucky enough to be in back blocking line of sight between everyone else and it... then doubling back unseen to repeat the process until it decided it had enough. Had you done it with three at once working as a pack like that, they probably would have mopped the floor with the party.

Wow. The only way to make it easier is it was chained or caged.

But it happens.

Still, the fact the Warmage was able to get a surprise action is pretty good.

BlackestOfMages

2011-08-29, 04:01 AM

tetrasodium: Don;t give him ideas! he's only just getting used to the idea that the party shouldn;t TPK from every encounter :smalltongue: (I joke)

on an unrelated note, I believe Complete Adventurer is open source like the core rulebook? if so, I can send you the details of the scout class Psycho :)

look forward to reading more about your DMing :D

Alleine

2011-08-29, 04:06 AM

on an unrelated note, I believe Complete Adventurer is open source like the core rulebook? if so, I can send you the details of the scout class Psycho :)

For starters, Complete Adventurer is not open source. And second, Psycho has stated that he never allows material from a book that he does not have access to a physical copy of. It might kinda suck for players who like options, but makes great incentive for players to expand his library for him :smallwink:

Drakevarg

2011-08-29, 04:56 AM

And second, Psycho has stated that he never allows material from a book that he does not have access to a physical copy of. It might kinda suck for players who like options, but makes great incentive for players to expand his library for him :smallwink:

Indeedly so. The Warmage keeps hoping I'll stumble over a copy of Heroes of Horror in the near future, so he can play Dread Necro.

The Glyphstone

2011-08-29, 09:58 AM

Indeedly so. The Warmage keeps hoping I'll stumble over a copy of Heroes of Horror in the near future, so he can play Dread Necro.

Tell the Warmage to start doing his own book-hunting legwork.:smallsmile:

Greenish

2011-08-29, 10:57 AM

Tetrasodium

2011-08-29, 02:19 PM

tetrasodium: Don;t give him ideas! he's only just getting used to the idea that the party shouldn;t TPK from every encounter :smalltongue: (I joke)

Its not so much giving ideas as explaining another aspect of critters he's missing before he accidentally TPK's his party and wonders why again. He's had a few posts where he either put the party or the monster behind the 8-ball due to situations or monster choice in relation to the party's skills and wondered how it happened. Coincidentally 3 hellhounds in terrain favorable to them is quite a bit more thn a CR5 encounter (numbers and terrain both bump it quite a bit) just as the one hellhound in drastically unfavorable terrain is less than a CR5 (it's like 3 or 4 probably)

Sometimes you have to adjust things on the fly as well. Lets say you did do the three hellhounds like I described (horror situation) & were not too sure how well the party could do. Start with one and don't bring out the second/third depending on how badly it is tearing them apart at only 1 or 2 HH's.
Designing encounters with an optional difficulty hike you can keep off the table without making it obvious that you did lety you throw it out if it's going to be too much, or bump it up if it's obviously not going to be enough