Proper party for ToH?

[Rossebay]

DON'T SPOIL ANY OF IT.

Again, DON'T SPOIL ANY OF IT.

Thank you.


Now, we've brought Tomb of Horrors to our DM's attention, and I was wondering what a good 4 to 5 man spread would look like for a party doing the Tomb run.

Don't tell me why I'll need anything in a way that'll ruin anything, or what I'll need to look at where, or whatever. All I know is something about command in the last room or against a boss or SOMETHING, and I'm going to tell the DM to change that about the boss because I don't want to have an easy escape ticket.

So, be concise and realistic: What's a good 4-man squad look like for Tomb of Horrors? I'll be optimizing these guys, if that helps.

[RaggedAngel]

You need a Factotum.

I repeat. You need a Factotum. Or, well, an Artificer, but both would be even better.

The reason you need a Factotum is because Trapfinding is utterly essential; in fact, the Trapfinder in your party is going to end up doing a lot of the work. Rogues are simply not versatile enough for the ToH, and Factotums can also provide backup healing, which you will quickly be thankful for. And by 'quickly', I mean right away.

[Vandicus]

I'd recommend someone able to use summons. Or a thrallherd or something along those lines. Disposable minions are always a good way to deal with traps.

[Fouredged Sword]

Caster with the summon elemental reserve feat. Make it touch everything and walk over every square. Don't touch anything until the elemental has touched it. In fact don't touch anything... Period. The elemental can do all the touching and door opening you need.

[RaggedAngel]

Caster with the summon elemental reserve feat. Make it touch everything and walk over every square. Don't touch anything until the elemental has touched it. In fact don't touch anything... Period. The elemental can do all the touching and door opening you need.

This. Do this. Just note that some traps reset immediately, and the elemental may bring an entire hallway down on your head. So, watch out for that too.

[Acanous]

Wizard; Focused specialist (Conjurer) with Abrupt Jaunt. Go into Master Specialist and then Malconvoker.

Factotum is a very good idea.

Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Variant Barbarian with Trapkiller from Dungeonscape, into Grapple-focus fighter with Dungeoncrasher, also from Dungeonscape.

DMM Cloistered Cleric.

[Fouredged Sword]

Also get the reserve feat that lets you do endless sonic rays. Just drill through anything that looks suspicious.

[HalfDragonCube]

Caster with the summon elemental reserve feat. Make it touch everything and walk over every square. Don't touch anything until the elemental has touched it. In fact don't touch anything... Period. The elemental can do all the touching and door opening you need.

Or alternatively just have a barbarian with you and a decent bluff check.

[Kalirren]

Give every PC 6 clones, joke names, and a arbitrarily chosen security clearance.

Oh, just for kicks, throw in a pair of googles of trapfinding painted white.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Doesn't matter what the party is, as long as you're equipped for everything except negotiations. Especially traps. Get your saving throws as high as possible.

[Whisper rider]

You need this:
1-cleric
2-a tank, HUGE AC
3-wizard
4-rogue, huge AC, lots of spot/Disable device/search
5- FACTATUM, you need to be able to stand alone...
6- DREAD NECROMANCER, get the rod of undead mastery from libris mortis, and get twice your undead minions..
I got 2 PCs in my ToH, one is a factatum, the other one a dread necro with 198HD of undead minions

[Coidzor]

I'd recommend someone able to use summons. Or a thrallherd or something along those lines. Disposable minions are always a good way to deal with traps.

First man to survive was Lord Robilar, thanks to the power of the really cheap orcs he'd hired.


6- DREAD NECROMANCER, get the rod of undead mastery from libris mortis, and get twice your undead minions..
I got 2 PCs in my ToH, one is a factatum, the other one a dread necro with 198HD of undead minions

Heh. A Necromancer would have some fun and be useful in places, though there's a chance they'd need to go on a... shopping trip even with the dread necromancer's expanded control getting filled up with 1-HD or less skellingtons. I think there's some great treasure for one in this module, though being able to actually get it is the tricky part.

[Rossebay]

I was actually thinking of playing some combo of Paladin/Cleric/Bone Knight... But I can't figure out the proper combination of levels to do this with.
And I have no idea what the rest of the party is going to be doing right now, but so far my general idea is:

1. Tank.
2. Healbot.
3. Skillmonkey/Trapmonkey.
4. Spellcaster.

Now, with my combo I can sort of (hopefully) play a good tank, and with undead summoning business, we should be able to flush out traps (again, we should be hitting hard enough on whatever the enemies are anyway, especially with some PA/Leap Attack fun. Ring of Jumping, anyone?)

[Greenish]

I was actually thinking of playing some combo of Paladin/Cleric/Bone Knight... But I can't figure out the proper combination of levels to do this with.Cleric 6/PrC Paladin1-3/Bone Knight.

Also, if you have a "healbot" instead of "spellcaster in plate", you're doing it wrong. :smalltongue:

[Rossebay]

Cleric 6/PrC Paladin1-3/Bone Knight.

Also, if you have a "healbot" instead of "spellcaster in plate", you're doing it wrong. :smalltongue:

What do you mean by that? (healbot thing, I was using it as a blanket term for someone to heal/control undead/cast divine)

Cleric 6, huh?
I was thinking Cleric 4/Pally 1/Bone Knight 4.
BAB 8, CL 7?
Or Pally2/Cleric3/BoneKnight4
But that's BAB 8 CL 6, and while my saves will boost, not by much...
Hell, Cleric 9 is BAB 6 CL 9, and I have access to Divine Power and Raise Dead, and of course all the Cleric necromancy goodies that come with it...

[Greenish]

What do you mean by that? (healbot thing, I was using it as a blanket term for someone to heal/control undead/cast divine)I mean that using the term "healbot" means you're not really grasping what's the cleric's real role.

[Rossebay]

I mean that using the term "healbot" means you're not really grasping what's the cleric's real role.

Oh, yeah, I know. Clerics are useful for a lot more than that.

[Redshirt Army]

You need:

Disposable Minions.
Trapfinding.
Dispel Magic at will.
Arcane Sight constantly active.
More caution then you know what to do with.

Send a minion into a square. Check to see if it's alive/magically enchanted.
Observe the square to see if it's magical. If it is, use Dispel Magic until it isn't.
Check for mundane traps, taking 20. Proceed to next square. Everything will kill you. Even that.

[Ason]

While this is not a party recommendation per se, I would recommend the rather mundane item of a 10 foot pole. It can be used for all sorts of things, is cheap and may save your butt more than once. As for how it could be used, well, I won't spoil anything. :smallwink:

[Rossebay]

Alright. Basically, the message is "find some way to leap before you leap."
Gotcha.



Now, will an Aasimar Cleric 9 focused on Necromancy and having an At-Will 30 ft. teleport ability fare well in the tomb?


EDIT: With access to Deathbound and Undeath domains, of course.


EDIT 2: Actually, that's a bit unrelated, so I'll start a new thread on the effectiveness of the build.

[Fouredged Sword]

Undead are useful. You can tell when you loose control of them so you can use them like cannaries. If you must go somewhere you can't see you send a skeletal monkey first and if you lose it you can tell without having to see it.

This may be important at some point.

[Elboxo]

Archvist with Alacritous Cogitation and the feat that lets you cast full-round spells as a standard action. All casting is pretty much covered
A Crusader with all the AC and HP, he can also heal you
A factotum for disable device and general helpfullness
A druid/wizard for battlefield dominance
A Bard with the dragonfire inspiration and Words of Creation, along with the spell that gives you +1 on bardic music. Your teammates get something like 4d6 extra damage as long as the music lasts, and you get all the usual sexy bard stuff

[Fouredged Sword]

warforged bard - never stop singing. EVER!

This is the song that never ends, it just goes on and on my friend! Some people started singing it not knowing what it was, and they just kept on singing it forever just becuse, this is the song that never ends!

Wizard - ok, now I want to rock at combat just to get that idiot to stop SINGING!

[Psyren]

Check out Jack_Smith's Trapsmith Wizard or Disassembler Druid. Send one of them in with 4 commoners for backup. Congratulations, you've cleared ToH.

[Chess435]

Archvist with Alacritous Cogitation and the feat that lets you cast full-round spells as a standard action.

What feat is that, and where can I find it?

[Tyndmyr]

DON'T SPOIL ANY OF IT.

Again, DON'T SPOIL ANY OF IT.

Thank you.


Now, we've brought Tomb of Horrors to our DM's attention, and I was wondering what a good 4 to 5 man spread would look like for a party doing the Tomb run.

Don't tell me why I'll need anything in a way that'll ruin anything, or what I'll need to look at where, or whatever. All I know is something about command in the last room or against a boss or SOMETHING, and I'm going to tell the DM to change that about the boss because I don't want to have an easy escape ticket.

So, be concise and realistic: What's a good 4-man squad look like for Tomb of Horrors? I'll be optimizing these guys, if that helps.

You *must* have a trap checker. The class need not be rogue, but someones gonna have to screw with traps. A good search check is pretty useful.

Healing of some sort is certainly desirable. Some sort of solid combat utility is needed. Won't come up much, but you'll want some options.

But, honestly...it's a lot more about playstyle than composition. I've seen it two-manned with a Samurai and a Factotum.

[Coidzor]

warforged bard - never stop singing. EVER!

Now with lyre of building (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#lyreofBuilding)action.

[enderlord99]

4 Factotums. All with maximum ranks (and preferably skill focus) in all trap-related skills.

EDIT: Pun-pun, Pun-pun, Pun-pun, and Pun-pun is pretty much the only party GUARANTEED to make it through, though.

[Chess435]

EDIT: Pun-pun, Pun-pun, Pun-pun, and Pun-pun is pretty much the only party GUARANTEED to make it through, though.

What if they got in a fight? :smalleek:

[Coidzor]

What if they got in a fight? :smalleek:

Then the Tomb and all of its guardians would be bystanders caught in the cross-fire and destroyed.

[Psyren]

What feat is that, and where can I find it?

Rapid Spell (CDiv) - it's metamagic though.

[Andorax]

Two things not explicitly mentioned here:

Telepathy, and time.

Rary's Telepathic Bond comes highly recommended here. Bonus points for shelling out the cost to make it permament.

TAKE YOUR TIME. No DM I have ever talked to has ever made someone clear the Tomb of Horrors on a deadline, and unless yours is an exception, take this fact to heart. Be patient and paranoid to the point of absurdity. Discuss EVERYTHING before acting unless an obvious danger is about to eat your faces (one thing the Tomb is not is subtle).

Check your assumptions at the door. Don't take anything at face value. Cast sending to dictate your will to a recognized barrister in a major city.

And write a journal in character. It'll make for a fun memento, and possible DM handout for the next party to try.

[TwylyghT]

Give every PC 6 clones, joke names, and a arbitrarily chosen security clearance.

Oh, just for kicks, throw in a pair of googles of trapfinding painted white.

Attn: Citizen Kalirren

While computer appreciates the efforts of citizens to assist and cooperate with each other, duty demands I remind you that you do not have sufficient clearance to offer assistance on these forums.

Computer understands you only did this in an honest effort to better your community, so it is granting you a pardon on this specific transgression, and has decided in fact to reward your initiative. If you look to the wall opposite this terminal, a doorway has opened. You can identify the correct doorway by the label "Incinerator Depository" placed above it. You may enter the doorway to claim your reward now.

Thank you again for your service citizen.

[RedWarrior0]

If you think you're being cautious enough, you're not.

Oh, and when you reach, [REDACTED], just remember: [DATA EXPUNGED].

[JaronK]

While this is not a party recommendation per se, I would recommend the rather mundane item of a 10 foot pole. It can be used for all sorts of things, is cheap and may save your butt more than once. As for how it could be used, well, I won't spoil anything. :smallwink:

This is terrible advice.

You need a 20' pole.

JaronK

[Elboxo]

What feat is that, and where can I find it?

Alacritous Cogitation lets you swap out a prepared slot for any spell of equal level or lower. As an archivist with it's huge list of spells, this will be your saviour for those " I don't know what to do " moments, ask your DM if he'll let you prepare ALL your slots like this ( 99% expecting he won't xD ) But if he DOES, then take the rapid casting feat, there's a better one somewhere that just straightup decreases casting time for no extra spell level... somewhere. If he doesn't then don't take rapid casting, but Alacritous Cogitation will still have it's uses, take it for a flaw, don't focus on it

[Kenneth]

Did Tomb Of Horrors somehow become like.. a bazillion times deadlier in 3rd ed? I guess so since everybody is telling you to cheese it up with hordes of undead and random weird classes .i.e factotums and saying such things as 'rogues are worthless and healbots are doing it wrong"


I know that in 3.5 healing is bad compared to other thingsbut.. this was a 1st ed adventure.


I have only ever done Tomb of Horrors in 1st and 2nd ed and my party went like this.

1st: Fighter, Rogue, cleric, Wizard

2nd: Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, fighter/wizard.

but If you wanna cheese it 3 wizards+cleric, or 4 wizards, or 2 wizards+druid+cleric. Would be your best bet.

of course by wizard I mean arcane caster, such as dread necromaster, etc.

[OrzhvoPatriarch]

I just ran the Tomb of Horrors, I killed 9 characters, I gave my party the ability to respawn their characters because we where not running it as part of a campaign, but simply to see what all the fuss was about. Death, as it turns out.

I am going to keep my suggestions to Core rule books.

Frist off, you need a frontline martial character. A paladin would be a good choice. Not to spoil anything, but magic will not be able to serve as your primary source of damage most of the time.

A rouge, of course, to disarm traps. Bonus points for an elf or half-elf to sense hidden doors.

A caster who can take detect magic. Detect magic is going to be very, very helpful spell. As I saw other people mention while skimming this thread, summon monster is a very helpful spell as well for checking out the ground ahead of you.

A cleric would also be nice, for healing and the removal of curses and poisons. Curses and poisons can be very nasty.


So, looking at my suggestions.....its the standard dnd party, with the broad archtypes all having something to do. Guess that Gary whats-his-name knew what he was doing.:smallbiggrin:

As for general suggestions, just take it slow and be careful. This dungeon is a death trap, but it is (largely) a fair death trap that you can figure out. You don't have a time limit, so just think it out.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Did Tomb Of Horrors somehow become like.. a bazillion times deadlier in 3rd ed? I guess so since everybody is telling you to cheese it up with hordes of undead and random weird classes .i.e factotums and saying such things as 'rogues are worthless and healbots are doing it wrong"

Random weird class? Factotum? And the hordes of undead are trapfinders. And who said rogues are worthless?

And yes, it is super deadly. I saw a guy nearly killed soon after the start of the adventure.

Edit: And yes, healbots are doing it wrong.

[TheOasysMaster]

So, looking at my suggestions.....its the standard dnd party, with the broad archtypes all having something to do. Guess that Gary whats-his-name knew what he was doing.

As for general suggestions, just take it slow and be careful. This dungeon is a death trap, but it is (largely) a fair death trap that you can figure out. You don't have a time limit, so just think it out.
Genius.

I think you'll have more fun if you simply make an interesting character and play smart.
:smallsmile:
The basic four classes will do: Rogue, Warrior, Wizard and Cleric.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I think you'll have more fun if you simply make an interesting character and play smart.
:smallsmile:
The basic four classes will do: Rogue, Druid, Wizard and Cleric.

FTFY.

Druids: outfighting fighters since 3e.

[Chess435]

It was Gary Gygax, by the way. This guy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0536.html)

[OrzhvoPatriarch]

It was Gary Gygax, by the way. This guy. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0536.html)

I know, I was making a joke by using "whats his name", in retrospect it should have been something like. "I guess that Gary....whats his name, right, Gygax knows his stuff. I think he has done a few other things in this line of work too:smallwink:"

[Coidzor]

Did Tomb Of Horrors somehow become like.. a bazillion times deadlier in 3rd ed? I guess so since everybody is telling you to cheese it up with hordes of undead and random weird classes .i.e factotums and saying such things as 'rogues are worthless and healbots are doing it wrong"

Factota are not random or weird. And healbots are doing it wrong. That's just the nature of the beast that is 3.X.

And hordes of undead are easier to get approved than hiring an army of orcs to act as cannon fodder for you for some reason. Which is how the Tomb was first beaten. By Rob whatshisname's character Lord Robilar.

[Chess435]

I know, I was making a joke by using "whats his name", in retrospect it should have been something like. "I guess that Gary....whats his name, right, Gygax knows his stuff. I think he has done a few other things in this line of work too:smallwink:"

Oh, okay then. :smallredface:

[137beth]

How much cheese is allowed? A wizard specializing in divination could blow through most of the traps/puzzles.

[Kenneth]

Yes the factotum is a random and wierd class, to me at least.

actually I feel that the majority of the classes oTC came out with are random and wierd. I just tend to acept classes based on an archetype than getting into more specifics such as with the beguiler or swashbuckler.

anyways I am pretty sure that going with the typical 4 man party make up would be suffiecent as I know for myself that is all it took. again though that was 1st and 2nd ed. so in 3rd it might be completely different. anyways just roll 4 wizards, or 3 wizards and a cleric, or 2 wizards a druid and a cleric. and proceed to win.

[Draz74]

I've never played the module in any edition, but I hear a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept (for constant flight and the ability to hit inanimate objects with ranged energy attacks infinite times) can come in handy.

Also, seconding the suggestion for the Summon Elemental Reserve Feat.

Also, I'm guessing having Mountain Hammer for breaking walls is a good idea.


I have only ever done Tomb of Horrors in 1st and 2nd ed and my party went like this.

1st: Fighter, Rogue, cleric, Wizard

2nd: Fighter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard, fighter/wizard.

That's a filthy lie.

Rogues and Wizards didn't exist in those editions. :smalltongue:

[Greenish]

Yes the factotum is a random and wierd class, to me at least.What's "random" or "weird" in factotum?


I just tend to acept classes based on an archetype than getting into more specifics such as with the beguiler or swashbuckler.Are you saying "swashbuckler" isn't an archetypical adventurer? :smallconfused:


I've never played the module in any edition, but I hear a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept (for constant flight and the ability to hit inanimate objects with ranged energy attacks infinite times) can come in handy.At-will detect magic should help, too.

[Grendus]

Hmm, given four characters I'd take the following:

Cleric/Church Inquisitor/Ordained Champion: divine tank, with decent HP and access to various healing spells. Most healing will be done with wands, but with full access to the cleric spell list you can use those scrolls of Cure Blindness, Remove Curse, etc. Should grab Summon Elemental reserve feat.
Wizard/Malconvoker: Minion spawn and general magic. Might go with Elf Generalist ACF, for increased flexibility and automatic search checks (since, le gasp, you'll be a. Should also grab Summon Elemental reserve feat.
Rogue/Duskblade/Chameleon: Striker gish with more flexibility than you can imagine. As a chameleon, he has to have Able Learner, so he can max out his search score. I'd probably make him an elf too, for the automatic hidden door checks.
Warlock: At will SLA's and infinite blasting. I'd nab The Dead Walk as well, and bring along a Handy Haversack full of dead chickens (you can get 50 for 1gp, they're dirt cheap). While undead chickens aren't that useful, you can animate them for free and use them as a secondary method of setting off traps.

[Kenneth]

I've never played the module in any edition, but I hear a Warlock or Dragonfire Adept (for constant flight and the ability to hit inanimate objects with ranged energy attacks infinite times) can come in handy.

Also, seconding the suggestion for the Summon Elemental Reserve Feat.

Also, I'm guessing having Mountain Hammer for breaking walls is a good idea.



That's a filthy lie.

Rogues and Wizards didn't exist in those editions. :smalltongue:

actually wizard exists in 2nd and yes they were called magic-users in 2st and rogues were known as theives. I was just trying to make it easier for people to understand.

and You are not getting my point all a swashbuckler is to me is a fighter who is more Errol Flynnish, It to me is more about Roleplaying than having to take a base class for it.

[Draz74]

actually wizard exists in 2nd and yes they were called magic-users in 2st and rogues were known as theives. I was just trying to make it easier for people to understand.
The main name of the class was "Mage," not "Wizard," in 2e. Also, you're taking my comment awfully personally, considering it was a joke.


and You are not getting my point all a swashbuckler is to me is a fighter who is more Errol Flynnish, It to me is more about Roleplaying than having to take a base class for it.

I wasn't involved in this part of the conversation earlier ... but the thing is, a Fighter who just tries to play with a more Errol Flynnish style just isn't going to be very effective. He won't do significant damage at higher levels, because he can't utilize Power Attack or any of the Fighter's other good tricks very well, has to take tons of cross-class skills, and so on.

Better to have a class that is actually good at emulating the archetype.

[Rossebay]

Alright, if we're not going to cheese it up, how important will healing be?

[RaggedAngel]

Alright, if we're not going to cheese it up, how important will healing be?

One Wand of Lesser Vigor will not be enough. At all. You need multiple sources of healing, because everyone is going to go down at least once. You also need ways to heal ability damage/drain, blindness, and all kinds of nasty curse/poison effects.

Don't expect to rest often.

[JaronK]

Binder would be a great class, since Malphas birds might be able to trigger some of the traps for you starting at level 1, while Buer and Zceryll can provide all day healing. Not a bad combo.

JaronK

[Togath]

Looking at the malphas bird ability, they may not be heavy enough to set off pressure plates, but they can scout or set off traps triggered by passing through, also Buer would be a pretty good vestige for helping with healing, you can get both by 7th level as a binder(also I can't find zceryll anywhere in ToM, is it from a web enhancement or 3rd party book?)

[JaronK]

Looking at the malphas bird ability, they may not be heavy enough to set off pressure plates, but they can scout or set off traps triggered by passing through, also Buer would be a pretty good vestige for helping with healing, you can get both by 7th level as a binder(also I can't find zceryll anywhere in ToM, is it from a web enhancement or 3rd party book?)

Yeah, I was thinking the birds would be good at triggering many traps, but weight based ones wouldn't do it. Still, it would help, and those birds are free.

Zceryll is an online vestige, but it is official. And it's crazy powerful. In this case, it would handle all your trap and healing needs entirely in addition to all your divination needs and darn near everything else too.

JaronK

[Greenish]

I can't find zceryll anywhere in ToM, is it from a web enhancement or 3rd party book?She's here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070718), and boy is she silly.

[137beth]

Yes the factotum is a random and wierd class, to me at least.

actually I feel that the majority of the classes oTC came out with are random and wierd. I just tend to acept classes based on an archetype than getting into more specifics such as with the beguiler or swashbuckler.

anyways I am pretty sure that going with the typical 4 man party make up would be suffiecent as I know for myself that is all it took. again though that was 1st and 2nd ed. so in 3rd it might be completely different. anyways just roll 4 wizards, or 3 wizards and a cleric, or 2 wizards a druid and a cleric. and proceed to win.
The 3rd edition version is much, much easier. Really, some of the traps allow saving throws.

[Rossebay]

Just how difficult is it, though?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Just how difficult is it, though?

I saw a guy nearly die shortly in from hit point damage. And he was the tank/DPS.

[JaronK]

My perfect party for it would probably be Crusader, Binder, Factotum, Archivist (or possibly Cleric). That should handle things nicely enough.

JaronK

[Rossebay]

My perfect party for it would probably be Crusader, Binder, Factotum, Archivist (or possibly Cleric). That should handle things nicely enough.

JaronK

We'll have a DMM: Persist Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor as healbot, tank, and secondary caster, a Collegiate Wizard, a Rogue/Swashbuckler/Invisible Blade for Trapmonkey and DPS purposes, and a Fighter/Barb/I don't know what else as an Ubercharger.

[Rising Phoenix]

Warlock: At will SLA's and infinite blasting. I'd nab The Dead Walk as well, and bring along a Handy Haversack full of dead chickens (you can get 50 for 1gp, they're dirt cheap). While undead chickens aren't that useful, you can animate them for free and use them as a secondary method of setting off traps.

"Garry, is that our lunch?! Why is it walking? It doesn't even have legs anymore!"

http://www.sogoodblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/roast-chicken.jpg

"Shhh quiet Sue. You will be thanking me when-" BOOOM!

Sorry couldn't resist

[Rossebay]

Hahahaha.


Anyway, isn't there a Cleric ability that lets overflow healing turn into temporary hit points?

[huttj509]

Just how difficult is it, though?

Attempting to quantify the difficulty in any version really depends on a lot of things, such as:

What version (duh)?
What party?
How cautious?
Are they forewarned about the tomb at all (tossing it unannounced into a normal game is a good way to get a lot of annoyed players)?
How strict? Can the trapfinder roll a search check, or does the player need to describe searching the west wall specifically, at which point he gets a description of the mural on the wall, and figures out that the switch to disable is in the eye of the dragon in the mural, but pressing the tooth will trigger a separate trap (made up, I've avoided reading details in case I encounter it someday)?

Heck, just from glancing at it, if you aren't careful, some versions it's basically something out of Foxtrot's Jason Caverns. Rocks fall, everyone dies, your party remains undiscovered for *roll* 87 years. If 3.5 allows you a saving throw to avoid the rocks, does it now count as "easy"? EasiER, maybe, but you can still be $%^&ed.

[Draz74]

My perfect party for it would probably be Crusader, Binder, Factotum, Archivist (or possibly Cleric). That should handle things nicely enough.

JaronK

From what I've seen you post in lots of threads over time, I have to ask:

Is that actually any different from your ideal party in any other situation, JaronK? :smallwink:

[Rossebay]

Attempting to quantify the difficulty in any version really depends on a lot of things, such as:

What version (duh)?
What party?
How cautious?
Are they forewarned about the tomb at all (tossing it unannounced into a normal game is a good way to get a lot of annoyed players)?
How strict? Can the trapfinder roll a search check, or does the player need to describe searching the west wall specifically, at which point he gets a description of the mural on the wall, and figures out that the switch to disable is in the eye of the dragon in the mural, but pressing the tooth will trigger a separate trap (made up, I've avoided reading details in case I encounter it someday)?

Heck, just from glancing at it, if you aren't careful, some versions it's basically something out of Foxtrot's Jason Caverns. Rocks fall, everyone dies, your party remains undiscovered for *roll* 87 years. If 3.5 allows you a saving throw to avoid the rocks, does it now count as "easy"? EasiER, maybe, but you can still be $%^&ed.

Version: 3.5
Party: Decently optimized bunch of chaps. The Cleric is the most powerful, followed by the Wizard, then the Rogue (or maybe the other way around) then the tank.
Caution: Quite cautious, I guess.
Forewarned: We requested it.

[JaronK]

From what I've seen you post in lots of threads over time, I have to ask:

Is that actually any different from your ideal party in any other situation, JaronK? :smallwink:

Normally I'd want a Beguiler in there. That is, however, my default "deadly old school D&D dungeon party" which does get asked about a lot.

JaronK

[Greymane]

Everyone has offered some pretty solid advice. If you play cautiously and intelligently, your group sounds like it might do alright. Though, the first time I did it, it was TPK in the second freakin' room.

Our successful run involved me using a Wizard/Fiend Binder (ToM). And what the Cohort Rogue couldn't find, the bound Babau demon was pretty dang awesome for being resistant or outright immune to everything we came across. Had a Succubus too, but she was only useful on rare and speedy uses of her Etherealness. She was great eye candy, though.

Spoiled because it mentions part of the Tomb.
We only had trouble when we walked into the Anti-Magic Field room, and my ability to command my Babau was suppressed. He caused a bit of trouble for us before we could drag him out.

[sreservoir]

Normally I'd want a Beguiler in there. That is, however, my default "deadly old school D&D dungeon party" which does get asked about a lot.

JaronK

adding a beguiler there isn't necessarily a bad idea. trapfinding, after all.

well, apart from party space.

[JaronK]

Exactly. Party Space is too much of an issue there. If anything, it's better to have people doing double duty... a pumped up version of that group would be Cleric/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vidicator, Binder/Archivist/Anima Mage/Tenebrous Apostate/Tainted Sorcerer, Factotum (hey, it works well pure), and Beguiler/Earth Dreamer/Shadowcraft Mage/Mindbender. Unfortunately, the Factotum ends up a bit underpowered in that group, but you need his trapfinding. Still, that party could likely steamroll through the ToH.

JaronK

[Draz74]

As Trapfinding classes go, it seems like Beguiler is normally a little more powerful than Factotum, and Artificer is potentially much more powerful than either of them; but in a lethal one-shot trap-filled dungeon like ToH, things kind of get reversed, since the Artificer won't have down time for crafting, and the Beguiler won't find much use for its social skills.

In fact, I might take a Rogue over a Beguiler or Artificer (but not a Factotum), in this situation.

[Analytica]

Four liches (wizard, beguiler, cleric and druidarchivist) who leave their phylacteries outside and try every combination out piece by piece, over a long period of time... :smallredface:

[JaronK]

As Trapfinding classes go, it seems like Beguiler is normally a little more powerful than Factotum, and Artificer is potentially much more powerful than either of them; but in a lethal one-shot trap-filled dungeon like ToH, things kind of get reversed, since the Artificer won't have down time for crafting, and the Beguiler won't find much use for its social skills.

In fact, I might take a Rogue over a Beguiler or Artificer (but not a Factotum), in this situation.

The main thing here is the Factotum gets Int to Dex based skills... with the Tactile Trapsmith feat, that could be Int + Dex to Search and Disable Device. That's pretty damn helpful. Also, the bit about spending Inspiration for boosted saves could be VERY helpful with traps.

JaronK

[sreservoir]

Four liches (wizard, beguiler, cleric and druidarchivist) who leave their phylacteries outside and try every combination out piece by piece, over a long period of time... :smallredface:

liches cannot normally be within the level range expected for ToH.