Spell-to-Power Erudite question

[Vemynal]

Is there a way to add Divine Spells to the StP Erudite?

I was also curious, because after doing *a lot* of research and reading up on the class I am under the notion that a Spell to Power Erudite can't learn all the Psionic Powers? Something about 9th level powers of a certain type being unavailable? If someone could explain this and any ways around this I'd appreciate it.

Also, do Powers (that you learned as spells) count towards your Unique Powers / day?

edit- And as a follow up, can someone explain to my why the Psion is considered more powerful then the Erudite? (not the Spell to power version. I mean the regular Erudite vs. the regular Psion)

[2xMachina]

Is there a way to add Divine Spells to the StP Erudite?

Not that I know off. Maybe look into Geomancer. They kinda mixed Divine/Arcane.


I was also curious, because after doing *a lot* of research and reading up on the class I am under the notion that a Spell to Power Erudite can't learn all the Psionic Powers? Something about 9th level powers of a certain type being unavailable? If someone could explain this and any ways around this I'd appreciate it.
9th lvl discipline powers cannot be gained. As are 9th lvl spells. (Before epic anyway) I'm not sure you can bypass the "1 lvl lower than you can cast" clause.


Also, do Powers (that you learned as spells) count towards your Unique Powers / day?
Yes. 1 reading makes it so big it doesn't matter anyway.


edit- And as a follow up, can someone explain to my why the Psion is considered more powerful then the Erudite? (not the Spell to power version. I mean the regular Erudite vs. the regular Psion)
Hmm, I'm not sure.

[Big Fau]

In all honesty, the only difference between an Erudite and a Psion is Discipline powers, and there are variants that make up for it.

That tier listing was prior to a proper reading of the Erudite's UPD, which revealed that it has 99 UPD at 20th level. This actually makes it a true Psionic Wizard, with the notable exception that it can choose UPDs spontaneously instead of preparing them.


The base Erudite is either on par with the Spirit Shaman (at the top of Tier 2, at the bottom of Tier 1), or is a true Tier 1.

[Gavinfoxx]

I think Alternate Spell Source, Geomancer, Southern Magician, etc. means that you can get all divine spells as arcane spells.

[Fouredged Sword]

reality revison yourself a powerstone of whatever spell->power you want. Learn it from the stone.

If it could theroreticly be make an arcane spell you are good. This includes any spell on a domian list (there is a feat for that), or anything castable by a divine caster 19th level 9 (basicly everything everywhere)

[FMArthur]

The Erudite almost has to be a Tier 1. It's wielding a tier 2's power with far, far more versatility. I would even say that the Unique Powers Per Day thing, where you prepare your spells at the moment you cast them, creates an even greater gap between the Psion and the Erudite than the one between normal spontaneous and prepared casters. You don't need to abuse the more thoroughly broken Unique Powers 'Per Level' RAW for this difference to separate the classes by a full tier.

Spell-to-power just makes Erudite the king of tier-1s, and some say it even promotes them to a new and special tier to share with the psionic artificer, which might be an important distinction if you're trying to figure out special game rules that work with the classes' tiers.

Anyway, you seem to be looking for a way to be a gestalt Archivist//Erudite, OP. Perhaps the Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b) would be of use to this end. I don't know of any way to get all the divine spells otherwise.

[Shadow Lord]

The Erudite almost has to be a Tier 1. It's wielding a tier 2's power with far, far more versatility. I would even say that the Unique Powers Per Day thing, where you prepare your spells at the moment you cast them, creates an even greater gap between the Psion and the Erudite than the one between normal spontaneous and prepared casters. You don't need to abuse the more thoroughly broken Unique Powers 'Per Level' RAW for this difference to separate the classes by a full tier.

Spell-to-power just makes Erudite the king of tier-1s, and some say it even promotes them to a new and special tier to share with the psionic artificer, which might be an important distinction if you're trying to figure out special game rules that work with the classes' tiers.

Anyway, you seem to be looking for a way to be a gestalt Archivist//Erudite, OP. Perhaps the Psychic Theurge (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040925b) would be of use to this end. I don't know of any way to get all the divine spells otherwise.

Wouldn't STP Erudite//Rainbow Warsnake be better for casting of every spell ever?

[Silva Stormrage]

Wouldn't STP Erudite//Rainbow Warsnake be better for casting of every spell ever?

Yes... all spontaneously...

On topic, I believe there is a dragon magazine feat that lets you take divine spells. Not sure what issue its in though.

[FMArthur]

Wouldn't STP Erudite//Rainbow Warsnake be better for casting of every spell ever?

It probably works out to be a stronger character (because list-wide spontaneity of the Cleric list is no joke obviously), but you don't nearly get all divine spells, which was sort of the point. Archivist does, and can theurge with Erudite in the same build for 9th/7th casting. And while I mentioned gestalt as a way of saying that you need both classes, gestalt isn't really what's being dealt with here and is basically a whole different game.

edit: Whoops, sorry for the ninja edit. I sometimes submit incomplete posts accidentally when I wanted to add more information.

[Shadow Lord]

It probably works out to be a stronger character (because list-wide spontaneity of the Cleric list is no joke obviously), but you don't nearly get all divine spells, which was sort of the point. Archivist does.

Ah. In that case, I suppose Archivist would be better.

[Silva Stormrage]

Wouldn't STP Erudite//Rainbow Warsnake be better for casting of every spell ever?

Yes... all spontaneously...

On topic, I believe there is a dragon magazine feat that lets you take divine spells. Not sure what issue its in though.

[Vemynal]

Thanks everyone. mainly the divine questions was just something I was curious about from a mechanics standpoint.

so:
~Erudite (StP) can't learn 9th level discipline powers *or* 9th level spells before epic levels. They get a few non-discipline 9th level powers and 8th level powers of all the disciplines (and arcane 8th level spells).

~The Erudite (w/ Mantels or w/ disciplines variant) can indeed get 9th level spells in that discipline (but not arcane spells due to StP and these variants having the same requirements to give up. You're first level bonus feat).

~So spells you've learned as powers count as unique powers and you can only learn 8th level spells prior to epic levels.

~And the Erudite should be considered either the top of tier 2 or a full fledged tier 1 class before the variants are used. Ie the Erudite is considered to be better to than the Psion for its spontaneous power use w/ access to learn all powers but gives up top discipline powers (til epic)



Here's a question. in the Complete Psionic the table lists "Unique Powers / Day" at level 20 as "11". Meaning you have 11 Unique powers / day.

What about non-Unique powers? I can still spend my PP on those at an unlimited amount right? (assuming I have PP left to spend on them).

Because in that case by level 20 I should have like 36 powers known outside of those 11 right?



Anyways, just wanted to check that I have the above right

[FMArthur]

Here's a question. in the Complete Psionic the table lists "Unique Powers / Day" at level 20 as "11". Meaning you have 11 Unique powers / day.

What about non-Unique powers? I can still spend my PP on those at an unlimited amount right? (assuming I have PP left to spend on them).

Because in that case by level 20 I should have like 36 powers known outside of those 11 right?



Anyways, just wanted to check that I have the above right

It sort of sounds like you don't think the Erudite's unique powers are your regular psionic powers. They are. All powers you manifest from your Erudite levels count toward your unique powers per day. :smallconfused:

You can manifest up to 11 different powers per day and choose which ones those are as you manifest them, but you can always manifest powers you've already used as long as you have the PP. You cannot manifest more than 11 different powers in a day. That's what the whole Unique Powers Per Day mechanic is.

Erudites have a mechanic for learning an unlimited number of powers and that's what makes them so good. Like a Wizard collects spells, Erudites collect various powers, and each day they choose a small selection of those powers they manifest. By level 20 you could know the minimum of 40 psion powers, or you could know every psion power ever printed, every discipline power below 9th ever printed and every arcane spell below 9th ever printed.

[Zonugal]

Erudites have a mechanic for learning an unlimited number of powers and that's what makes them so good. By level 20 you could know the minimum of 40 psion powers, or every psion power ever printed, every discipline power below 9th ever printed and every arcane spell below 9th ever printed.

Basically Erudites become Sylar from Heroes. Hunting down powers/spells and analyzing them.

[Flickerdart]

To be fair, a Psion with Psychic Chirurgery could get all the powers known - by tracking down psionicists with them, implanting Psychic Chirurgery into them and then having them use it to give him the powers he wants from them. The XP costs would be exorbitant, but then as a Telepath he would have the ability to force them to do it. Or just use Thrallherd to rotate Ardent thralls.

[Zaq]

Just spitballing here, but could an Erudite get into Shadowcraft Mage? Probably not, since if memory serves their powers don't count as "spells," but it makes me wonder. (Of course, since powers can't be heightened in the same way that spells can, it'd be harder to abuse them, but . . .)

[FMArthur]

Psychic Chirurgery is a 9th level Telepathy discipline power.

A lower-level way to do it that doesn't make you take on the discipline would be just to learn the powers through level-up, craft a bunch of power stones and then use Psychic Reformation (which is only a 4th-level Telepathy power) to reset the spells he knows to something else. He keeps the power stones of his old powers, and can learn the powers as normal from them. Every once in a while (like every two levels) he does this again, paying the smaller Psychic Reformation cost required for resetting only one or two levels of power choices.

I'm pretty sure this is cheaper XP-wise as well. You would only need to do this if your DM specifically gears the world against you by making you unable to acquire more powers in cities, though. By regular magic item rules it shouldn't be hard to find and purchase power stones in cities, and you could also seek out other psionic creatures and ask/pay them to copy their powers.

[Chess435]

To be fair, a Psion with Psychic Chirurgery could get all the powers known - by tracking down psionicists with them, implanting Psychic Chirurgery into them and then having them use it to give him the powers he wants from them. The XP costs would be exorbitant, but then as a Telepath he would have the ability to force them to do it. Or just use Thrallherd to rotate Ardent thralls.

Or use a Thought Bottle. :smallbiggrin:

[Big Fau]

Nitpick: The Erudite's UPD ability is 11 powers/power level/day. The middle part is easily overlooked, but it is RAW. In other words, 99 UPD at 20th level.


An erudite manifests psionic powers, paying for each manifestation with an expenditure of power points. Unlike a psion, an erudite is limited to manifesting a certain number of unique psionic powers of each level per day from the repertoire of powers he knows, according to his class level. Thus, a 1st-level erudite can manifest one unique power per day; however, the total number of powers he can manifest per day is limited only by his daily power points (that is, the erudite could manifest the unique power as many times per day as he has power points to pay for it). An erudite simply knows his powers; they are part of his repertoire. He does not need to prepare them, though he must get a good night's sleep to regain all spent power points the next day.

The example is misleading because a 1st level Erudite only has a single UPD anyway.

A 1st level Psion has a small bit more flexibility than a 1st level Erudite. This difference starts to fad as early as 4th level, and by the mid-levels the Erudite has far outpaced the Psion in flexibility, especially if Mantled Erudite or StP is beng used. The more psionic powers you can choose from, the more powerful the Erudite will be by comparison.


If you are playing in an Eberron campaign, you'd be better off using the Erudite because there's quite a bit more material for Psionics in the various Eberron splats. If StP is allowed, the Erudite is hands-down better than the Psion.

[Vemynal]

Basically Erudites become Sylar from Heroes. Hunting down powers/spells and analyzing them.

ok, this just made me want to play an Erudite even more...I kinda want to go cut some heads off people and play with their brains now =D (in game of course)

Thanks you for the clarification FMArthur, indeed I *was* confused at that point, that was the missing piece of the puzzle I've been trying to figure out. Now this whole business makes *a lot* more sense.

And Big Fau, I know that it says "per level per day" and maybe the able that was listed for the class was wrong. But either way I'm following the table. I feel an Erudite without the slow narrowing of his abilities throughout the day lacks any sense of the limitation as it was mentioned.

Being limited to only 99 different spells in a day isn't a limitation...I don't know if I could even manifest 99 different spells in a day if I knew all the spells =/

Making them able to only cast 11 different powers in a day, but giving them a *greater* range of powers to choose from I feel is an adequate exchange and one I'd personally be willing to make.

Especially if StP is being used lol

[FMArthur]

Nitpick: The Erudite's UPD ability is 11 powers/power level/day. The middle part is easily overlooked, but it is RAW. In other words, 99 UPD at 20th level.



The example is misleading because a 1st level Erudite only has a single UPD anyway.

A 1st level Psion has a small bit more flexibility than a 1st level Erudite. This difference starts to fad as early as 4th level, and by the mid-levels the Erudite has far outpaced the Psion in flexibility, especially if Mantled Erudite or StP is beng used. The more psionic powers you can choose from, the more powerful the Erudite will be by comparison.


If you are playing in an Eberron campaign, you'd be better off using the Erudite because there's quite a bit more material for Psionics in the various Eberron splats. If StP is allowed, the Erudite is hands-down better than the Psion.

It's not overlooked, it is just very, very obviously not intended to work the way it technically does. There is no trade happening when you pick an Erudite over a Psion if you do it that way. It's just gain. You don't need it to be powerful, your DM won't like you for using it, and it's just ridiculous in practically every way. It's like Monk unarmed strike nonproficiency, but gets more attention because it happens to be an accident that increases power instead of decreases it.

[Big Fau]

It's not overlooked, it is just very, very obviously not intended to work the way it technically does. There is no trade happening when you pick an Erudite over a Psion if you do it that way. It's just gain. You don't need it to be powerful, your DM won't like you for using it, and it's just ridiculous in practically every way. It's like Monk unarmed strike nonproficiency, but gets more attention because it happens to be an accident that increases power instead of decreases it.

The difference between the Monk's nonproficiency and the Erudite's 99 Powers is that one requires you to actively omit sections of the text, whereas the Monk is poorly written.

It isn't a technicality. RAW, the Erudite class gets 99 powers. The example follows RAW because the example is depicting a 1st level Erduite. They actually intended for this to happen because the original Erudite was written for 3.0 Psionics, which had 99 powers for the Erudite to pick from.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

And Big Fau, I know that it says "per level per day" and maybe the able that was listed for the class was wrong. But either way I'm following the table. I feel an Erudite without the slow narrowing of his abilities throughout the day lacks any sense of the limitation as it was mentioned.

While that's fine (the bolded bit, that is), it is contrary to the rules of the game. You are instructed to follow text over table (could someone source me on this? I can't seem to find it).

As to learning 9th level Discipline Powers pre-epic, one might find a 17th level Telepath with Psychic Chirurgery, manifest Metaconcert, have the Metaconcert-thingy manifest Psychic Chirurgery on you granting you Psychic Chirurgery as a power known, and then you just have to find Psions with the discipline powers you want, get them to join your Metaconcert, and Psychic Chirurgery yourself the powers.

I'm not sure if there's a similar method for getting spells known, apart from Metaconcert + Epic StP Erudites.

Edit: Oh, and Psyren came up with a trick for getting around the Unique Powers Per Day/Unique Powers Per Level Per Day argument - your Psicrystal gets feats, so have it take Wild/Hidden Talent which makes it able to join in a Metaconcert. Manifest Metaconcert, having your Psicrystal act as conductor. Stick your Psicrystal in your pocket. Bam, the Metaconcert-thing knows all the powers you know, and has no UPD to worry about, so you can have it manifest any and all the powers you know (as long as you've got PP).

[tyckspoon]

While that's fine (the bolded bit, that is), it is contrary to the rules of the game. You are instructed to follow text over table (could someone source me on this? I can't seem to find it).


It's a section on top of all the errata files explaining the 'primary source' rule, which has an example that text is primary over table, so if the text and the table disagree the text rules.