Dual Finesse? :P

[ccjmk]

Hey everyone :3

I'm still hanging around trying to get to know the mechanics better and reading quite a lot, so i'm full of ideas -and probably failed concepts-

I was considering the idea of making some sort of elven meele fighter (i want to clear out i'm not specifically talking about a Fighter-class elf) dual-wieldings rapiers using both Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon fightning feats (and Elven's innate Rapier proficiency) for taking advantage of elven's high dexterity and using double rapiers for extra bonus damage on it.

I have several questions over this:

a) Rapier on my off-hand weapon counts as a light weapon? I can't seem to find anything about this.

b) Is the off-hand rapier also affected by Weapon Finesse?

c) Which class will be suitable for this kind of things?

d) And most importantly.. will it be wise to do something around this lines?

Thanks in advance!

[hamishspence]

The feat Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting allows you to downgrade a one-handed weapon to a Light Weapon (for dual-wielding penalty purposes).

[Zherog]

Hey everyone :3

I'm still hanging around trying to get to know the mechanics better and reading quite a lot, so i'm full of ideas -and probably failed concepts-

I was considering the idea of making some sort of elven meele fighter (i want to clear out i'm not specifically talking about a Fighter-class elf) dual-wieldings rapiers using both Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon fightning feats (and Elven's innate Rapier proficiency) for taking advantage of elven's high dexterity and using double rapiers for extra bonus damage on it.

I have several questions over this:

a) Rapier on my off-hand weapon counts as a light weapon? I can't seem to find anything about this.

No, a rapier is a one-handed weapon not a light weapon. It's just an exception to the Weapon Finesse rule.


b) Is the off-hand rapier also affected by Weapon Finesse?

Yes. Weapon Finesse applies to any weapon you're wielding.


c) Which class will be suitable for this kind of things?

d) And most importantly.. will it be wise to do something around this lines?

Thanks in advance!

I'll leave C for others. My opinion on D? Not without build tricks to reduce the penalties for having a one-handed weapon in your off-hand. It would depend on what sources you have available as to what ways you could do it. But without that, the penalties are too high.

[Yuki Akuma]

Just use a short sword. It's only 1 damage less than a rapier.

As for a good class for this, Rogue is always a favourite, as Sneak Attack counts for every attack that qualified. Bard can be good, too - although generally a melee Bard should use slashing weapons, because of Snowflake Wardance.

[Eledragon]

Hey everyone :3

a) Rapier on my off-hand weapon counts as a light weapon? I can't seem to find anything about this.

b) Is the off-hand rapier also affected by Weapon Finesse?

c) Which class will be suitable for this kind of things?

d) And most importantly.. will it be wise to do something around this lines?!

a) no. rapiers are not actually light weapons, they just qualify for Finesse.

b) yes.

c) Rogue in core. maybe ranger. dex is (usually) a main stat of rogues, and you get sneak attack.

d) you have to decide that! :smallwink:

not because i woulden't know, oh no

[subject42]

d) And most importantly.. will it be wise to do something around this lines?


What does the rest of your group look like? Also, what books do you have to available for source material?

[AmberVael]

a) Rapier on my off-hand weapon counts as a light weapon? I can't seem to find anything about this.

b) Is the off-hand rapier also affected by Weapon Finesse?

c) Which class will be suitable for this kind of things?

d) And most importantly.. will it be wise to do something around this lines?

Thanks in advance!
b) To be very specific, just to echo what everyone else said, Weapon Finesse may be applied when you're using "a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category." As long as any weapon you're wielding qualifies, you can use Weapon Finesse with it, even if you're somehow holding five.

c) Scout or Rogue, if you want your dual weapons to actually count for anything, or perhaps the Sneak Attack variant fighter. In short, you need an extra damage source for this to be worthwhile (particularly if you have low strength stacked on top of dual wielding). As Yuki notes, a melee bard build can be good too.

d) Define 'wise.' This is a fairly suboptimal concept right out of the box, but with sufficient optimization it can be okay at dealing damage... and with the right class picks, you can probably make the character decent with skills too. On the whole though, I'd personally just play a regular Swordsage instead- it'd be more effective, have more options, and require less work to make it okay.

[Psyren]

Jamaica, eh?



a) Rapier on my off-hand weapon counts as a light weapon? I can't seem to find anything about this.

Rapiers are one-handed, not light, but you can explicitly use weapon finesse (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#rapier) with them anyway. You'll still take increased TWF penalties though.

List of weapon types is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm) - note where rapier falls.


b) Is the off-hand rapier also affected by Weapon Finesse?

Yes - see above.


c) Which class will be suitable for this kind of things?

Tome of Battle classes are superior for melee, but if you don't have access to that you'll need a class with bonus damage (like Rogue) to get the most out of a TWF build. This is because, without strength to provide your damage, all you'll be able to do is hit a lot and pinprick the enemy, if you even do damage at all (past low levels that is.)


d) And most importantly.. will it be wise to do something around this lines?

That depends on a lot of factors, including the composition/power level of your group and what you expect to be up against. You have a lot of odds stacked against you though - in addition to the penalties you'll be taking and the weakness of elves in general, you're also dealing with the fact that Rapiers do the weakest damage type (piercing) - weakest, meaning that most DR protects against it.

[Vladislav]

Just use a short sword. It's only 1 damage less than a rapier.It's actually exactly the same damage as a rapier, except slightly worse crit range.

To answer the OP, two weapon fighting isn't viable without additional sources of damage. If you don't have additional damage sources like Sneak Attack or Skirmish, or at the very least, Swashbuckler's +Int to damage, two weapon fighting is always going to be less effective than just grabbing a Greatsword in both hands.

If you want an efficient Elf "Fighter" that fights with two weapons, there's no need to actually make him a member of the Fighter class mechanically. Mechanically, he can be a Rogue/Swashbuckler combination. That would work well. Don't forget to take the Daring Outlaw feat as soon as you qualify for it. Consider making him a Grey Elf for that Int bonus.

[Human Paragon 3]

a) Rapier on my off-hand weapon counts as a light weapon? I can't seem to find anything about this.

You can't find anything about this because it is not in the rules. Rapier is one-handed.

b) Is the off-hand rapier also affected by Weapon Finesse?

Yes!

c) Which class will be suitable for this kind of things?

What books are available to you? The best class for this trick is Warblade from Tome of Battle, but despite what others will tell you, the learning curve on that book is higher than that of the core books. If you are only using core classes, a mix of fighter and rogue is most likely your best bet. (Fighter lets you take weapon finesse and TWF at level 1 and rogue provides bonus damage via sneak attack). Ranger gets free two-weapon fighting feats, so that's an obvious choice, but I don't know if you wan't to be a nature guy. If not, there is an urban ranger that is more city-based in unearthed aracana (and available on the online SRD). Psychic Warrior is also on the SRD, though not core, and would make an OK two-weapon-fighter using psi-venom weapon and other powers that boost your weapons. Outside of core, Swashbuckler (complete warrior) is an OK choice because it gets INT to damage and weapon finesse for free. Once you get a few levels under your belt, consider the Dervish class, which really boosts two-weapon fighting. As stated above, Warblade is the very best choice for this if you are up to learning ToB material.

d) And most importantly.. will it be wise to do something around this lines?


There are those that will tell you no, that two-weapon fighting is a trap and that the only way to be effective in mele (outside of Tome of Battle) is through power attacking with a two-handed weapon, tripping with a spiked chain, or using a lance on a mount. You can't argue the numbers with these people, but two-weapon fighting can be somewhat effective and quite fun if you have a source of bonus damage (like sneak attack or skirmish). You will look especially good if A) your friends are also new and not well-optimized or B) you have a spellcaster friend who buffs you with haste and other strong effects. Hope this helped!

More specific build advice will come when you tell us what books are available and what level you are starting at.

[Yuki Akuma]

It's actually exactly the same damage as a rapier, except slightly worse crit range..

Really?

Wow, I was under the impression rapiers were 1d8.

Okay, so, yeah, short sword.

[Human Paragon 3]

But rapiers are cooler!

[Salanmander]

Really?

Wow, I was under the impression rapiers were 1d8.

Okay, so, yeah, short sword.

That one lower threat range can be pretty significant, especially if you plan to take improved crit. The difference between 15-20 and 17-20 is /very/ noticeable. That said, most dual-wielding builds don't get that much out of crits anyway, because most sources of extra damage don't get multiplied on crits.

[Talya]

Kukris. 1d4, same threat range, and already light.

Plus indian weapons are stylisticly great, even if D&D shortchanges the Chakram. :smallmad:

[Vladislav]

Kukris are great for an Improved Critical/Telling Blow build, by the way. But that can go with Rogue/Swashbuckler/Daring Outlaw too.

[darksolitaire]

a) Rapier on my off-hand weapon counts as a light weapon? I can't seem to find anything about this.


It's doesn't count as light weapon, but you can overcome this with feat Oversized Two Weapon Fighting.



b) Is the off-hand rapier also affected by Weapon Finesse?


Yes, because it says so in the Rapier.



c) Which class will be suitable for this kind of things?


You'll want good base attack bonus to get two weapon fighting feats early. You also need additional sources of damage to make it worthwhile. Usually this means sneak attack, so Sneak Attack variant fighter and Rogue (and perhaps Rokugan Ninja, if you can get it) could be useful.

Champion of Corellon allows you to add Dex to your weapon damage, but requires many useless feats to enter. There is also fighter ACF in Drow of the Underdark that allows you to add Dex to your weapon damage against flat-footed foes. Swashbuckler allows you to add Int.

Rapiers have 18-20 critical range, so you could go crit fishing with improved critical and bucket of attacks.

Someone will propably suggest Warblade or Swordsage from Tome of Battle, but I'm not as familiar with them as others are. At any rate, don't be afraid of dipping many classes and drawing out from multiple sources, as two weapon fighting style needs all power it can get. :smallwink:



d) And most importantly.. will it be wise to do something around this lines?


Rule of Fun is the reason for making this, so of course it is wise! :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, you are not as powerful as two-handed weapon users, and casters are farther ahead still. It depends how strong other members of your party are. You will not be the character who dishes out most damage, so you should utilize every trick your character can get it's hand on. Use your skills, both social and movement-related. Find traps. Find hidden doors. Prepare ambushes. Throw daggers and fill enemies with arrows when needed (and if you're into it, use poison). Grab that seemingly useless magic item, and later on save the day with it. Know everything your character is capable of doing, and which it it not. In short, play smart.

(And by the time I post this, I imagine it to be obsolete:smallbiggrin:)

[Nohwl]

rogue/swashbuckler going for daring outlaw for the build? swashbuckler gets weapon finesse as a bonus feat, and you'd have bonus damage from sneak attack to make two weapon fighting better. you'd want access to a lot of books to make it though.

[Flickerdart]

If you're going two-weapon fighting, you are going to need a way of getting to move and full attack in the same round, because your single attacks will suck. There are some ways of doing this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).

[fryplink]

Rule of Fun is the reason for making this, so of course it is wise! :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, you are not as powerful as two-handed weapon users, and casters are farther ahead still. It depends how strong other members of your party are. You will not be the character who dishes out most damage, so you should utilize every trick your character can get it's hand on. Use your skills, both social and movement-related. Find traps. Find hidden doors. Prepare ambushes. Throw daggers and fill enemies with arrows when needed (and if you're into it, use poison). Grab that seemingly useless magic item, and later on save the day with it. Know everything your character is capable of doing, and which it it not. In short, play smart.

(And by the time I post this, I imagine it to be obsolete:smallbiggrin:)

This ^
Games are meant to be fun, if you're so worried about being powerful that it stops being fun, then you are doing it wrong. If you are horribly weak and loving it, then you are doing it right.


That said, I have a soft spot for factotum, with their "not sneak attack" and +int to so many things. They aren't spectacular for a dual weapon build, but if you play human (for the bonus feat) you should probably be able to swing it. You could always dip a level or two of fighter for the feats before taking Factotum as well (this is assuming your party isn't full of playgrounders)

[Socratov]

ehm. it may depend on your DM, I know My DM talked me into dual wielding rapiers, treating the rapier as light thanks to weapon finesse.

However, else it's just a difference of -2 on both attacks. There are a lot of ways to improve your to hit (just take leadership with a bard cohort, improves in-game e-peen as well :smallwink: )

ofcourse a short sword should also do the trick, but hey, it's infinitely cooler fighting with 2 rapiers then a rapier and a short sword. And seeïng you are playing a martial character shoudl tell us you don't care about overpoweredness or game balance and just want to have fun by thinking up ridicilous concepts (join the club here :smallamused: ), so that extra -2 shouldn't matter that much, try enough and you'll hit for sure :smallbiggrin:

also, my DM granted me a dramatic entrance bonus: whenever I entered a fight either by a Dramatic entry (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DynamicEntry), or any appearance including a dramatic speech or gesture (bonus points for ropes or chandeliers) i would get +2 to hit because of style. It was actually the reason i got use rope, climb and balance on my dread pirate :)

[Darrin]

a) Rapier on my off-hand weapon counts as a light weapon? I can't seem to find anything about this.


No, it's still a one-handed weapon. However, there are several ways around this:

1) Oversize TWF feat, Complete Adventurer. Treats a one-handed weapon in your off-hand as a light weapon for the purposes of TWF.

2) Feycraft (DMGII p. 275) rapier would count as a light weapon, but damage drops to 1d4.

3) Use an elven lightblade (Races of the Wild) as your off-hand weapon.



b) Is the off-hand rapier also affected by Weapon Finesse?


Yep.



c) Which class will be suitable for this kind of things?


Barbarian 1/2: Spirit Lion Totem offers Pounce, and you can trade Rage for Whirling Frenzy (extra attack). If you go one more level, you can take Wolf Totem to swap uncanny dodge for Improved Trip, which is a nice debuff for melee.

Ranger 2/4: Pick up TWF and offers a very wide variety of ACFs, including Trap Expert (Dungeonscape) to pick up trapfinding, Spiritual Connection (Complete Champion) to trade wild empathy for speak with animals/plants 3/day, and Distracting Attack (PHBII) to trade your animal companion for a flanking effect. (I don't recommend the Champion of the Wild or Spiritual Guide ACFs). If you can get Mystic Ranger in there (Dragon #336), then Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor) can get pretty interesting.

Fighter 2: Mostly filler if you need to fill in some feats before you get into a PrC or get into a "candy shop crunch" at ECL 6.

Cloistered Cleric 1: gets you three domains, which can include Travel Devotion (move up to your speed as a swift action for 10 rounds 1/day), War domain (Weapon Focus: longsword), and Knowledge Devotion (free action to gain to +1 to +5 attack/damage with a Knowledge check). Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of elven deities with Travel and War (Sehanine Moonbow, yes, but favored weapon is longbow). Corellon Larethian isn't bad if you can get the Magic Domain (activate wands/scrolls as a wizard), War Domain, and use Improved Weapon Familiarity (Complete Warrior) to gain proficiency with elven thinblades/lightblades (which count as longswords for Weapon Focus purposes).

Warblade, Warblade, and more Warblade. Did I mention Warblade? Tome of Battle can be a little divisive on these boards, but if you're ProToB, it's awesomesauce on toast.



d) And most importantly.. will it be wise to do something around this lines?


TWF has two major problems:

1) All of those TWF feats are useless if you can't make a full attack, so getting some form of pounce or move + full attack is essential. Person_Man has a guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) for that, but Travel Devotion is usually the easiest method.

2) TWF needs some sort of bonus damage to keep pace with the two-handed Power-Attack/Shock-Trooper/Leap Attack uberchargers. The most popular methods include:

2a) Crit-fishing, usually with keen kukris or Aptitude weapons + Lightning Mace combat style. Aptitude enhancement is from Tome of Battle, which according to some readings lets you treat any weapon as a light mace for the purposes of Lightning Mace. Everytime you threaten a crit, Lightning Mace grants you an extra attack.

2b) Sneak attack, usually via the Daring Outlaw feat and either Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16 or Simple Fighter 3/Swashbuckler 17.

2c) Skirmish damage, usually with some sort of Swift Hunter build. The basic build is generally Scout 4/Ranger 16 or Scout 5/Ranger 15, but I like to throw in some Dragon Devotee, Unseen Seer, and Highland Stalker to get Skirmish damage up to 10d6.

2d) Forget about damage and focus on status effects or ability damage, such as Wounding weapons or Maiming Strike (Exemplars of Evil).

[Yuki Akuma]

If you can somehow get ability damage on every attack, that is pretty awesome. Even if it's just 1 per hit, it adds up.

There are a few ways to do it, but they escape me right now...

[Socratov]

also, dualwielding wounding rapiers works

[Lord Bingo]

I'm going to stick to D (the wisdom of things) as it seems the other questions have been taken care off... :smallwink:

The only characters that really stand to gain from TWF are those who rely on bonus damage to do the work for them, such as that gained from a Rogues sneak attack. As bonus damage does not multiply on a critical there is really little reason to choose a weapon that has a high crit-range other than style. If you are dead set on the rapier I would recommend you stick with it for your main hand but go with a dagger in your off-hand rather than burn a feat on the afore mentioned Oversized TWF feat.

If you want to go for combat effectiveness/versatility, however, you would be better served by two daggers as they can do both piercing and slashing damage rather than just the piercing damage of a rapier.

Furthermore you need to beware that there are lots of critters that are immune to sneak attack and so you need to have a strategy for dealing with these. Rogues have the greatest skill in the game for this eventuality: Use Magic Device, so you should put points into this and pack some wands.

Now, in the above I have assumed that you would choose the path of the Rogue, but a Swordsage would be a great choice for TWF too. IMO the choice between the two boils down to what you plan on doing outside combat. The Rogue wins for me because of adaptability and the usefulness of his/her skills outside combat where, IIRC, the Swordsage is somewhat challenged in the comparative utility market. You could multiclass between the two, though.

[koscum]

If your DM allows it, get somebody to craft you an item which grants continuous Wraithstrike to offset a penalty to hit for TWF and iterative attacks. 3/day should work as well. If those two fail, rank up your UMD (since base class is probably going to be a Rogue, this is a must anyway) and use Wand of Wraithstrike.

Since Rapiers have high crit range, you could consider getting Improved Crit. for them as well as Telling Blow.

You can also switch to Daggers and get Shadow Blade feat from ToB. Dex to dmg FTW!

Belt of Battle from MIC is a must. If you can get Pounce somehow, consider getting Boots of Battle Charger (also from MIC). Get 2x Greater Truedeath Crystal and/or 2x Greater Demolition Crystal to remain effective vs. Undead and/or Constructs. It's gonna be pretty expensive to properly equip yourself, though.



In one of the games I'm in, I have a non optimized high-Dex TWF Rogue 5/Swordsage 2/Good Assassin 4. Unless it's a boss fight ("immunity" to SA, but I'm working my way out of this one soon), I tend to dish out 200+ dmg per round without buffs. Nowhere near our Ubercharger, but at least I didn't kill 3 party members :smallsmile: (yay... I can has a 30+ Will save). Besides, it's more fun stalking your pray and jumping it when it least expects rather than..... well, whatever a Frenzied Berserker does in a crowded street.

[Vladislav]

Since Rapiers have high crit range, you could consider getting Improved Crit. for them as well as Telling Blow.By the time you qualify for Improved Critical (which is about level 9), you may find that you have enough cash to pay for the Keen weapon enhancement, which is better than spending a feat.

And yes, Telling Blow is a must.

[Xtomjames]

If you're going to do this build, I'd go with a Tengu (from Pathfinder, if you're allowed) instead. This gives you more pliability for which weapons you can use (any sword like weapon, as a Tengu you're proficient with all sword like and bladed weapons.)

Otherwise if you want to make your rapier a light weapon instead of a one handed weapon, get a mithral rapier. It's treated as half weight and thus qualifies as a light-weapon.

Also you could consider getting either an Elven light blade or Elven Thin-Blade. Both qualify for weapon finesse, and you could argue that the Elven Thin-Blade, while listed as one-handed should qualify as a light weapon (considering that it's only 3 lbs). Something to discuss with your DM.

You could also take the ambidexterity feat (even though it's 3.0 not 3.5, again discuss with your DM). The feat would reduce your TWF penalties greatly. See http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ambidexterity_(3.5e_Feat).

As for class, I'd go with Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) you gain Weapon Finesse automatically, and it's a D10 for HD. Taking levels in Exotic Weapons Master when you qualify will get you some fun tricks to use as well.

[kamikasei]

Otherwise if you want to make your rapier a light weapon instead of a one handed weapon, get a mithral rapier. It's treated as half weight and thus qualifies as a light-weapon.
Not so: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#mithral)

An item made from mithral weighs half as much as the same item made from other metals. In the case of weapons, this lighter weight does not change a weapon’s size category or the ease with which it can be wielded (whether it is light, one-handed, or two-handed).
Which makes some sense - a weapon's category isn't simply about its weight but about how its balanced and how it's wielded. A greatsword doesn't become a practical one-handed weapon just because it's made to weigh less - it's still built to be used with two hands.

[herrhauptmann]

Otherwise if you want to make your rapier a light weapon instead of a one handed weapon, get a mithral rapier. It's treated as half weight and thus qualifies as a light-weapon.

Fortunately, someone already covered this.


Also you could consider getting either an Elven light blade or Elven Thin-Blade. Both qualify for weapon finesse, and you could argue that the Elven Thin-Blade, while listed as one-handed should qualify as a light weapon (considering that it's only 3 lbs). Something to discuss with your DM.

The OP will be a bit low on feats if going rogue or swashbuckler. Suggesting to waste a feat on exotic weapon prof is a bad idea.
Now, I haven't read Races of the Wild in a while, but I don't believe there's a caveat that says "Elves receive a free proficiency with any weapon that has 'Elven' in the name." I believe that Pathfinder has the option, but in 3.5 I think only dwarves get it with the waraxe.

Also, as stated by kamikasei, weapon weight has no effect on whether it can be finessed. It might be a logical houserule at some tables, but that's still just a houserule.


You could also take the ambidexterity feat (even though it's 3.0 not 3.5, again discuss with your DM). The feat would reduce your TWF penalties greatly. See http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ambidexterity_(3.5e_Feat).

Ambidexterity was rolled into Two weapon fighting in 3.5 because it was seen as a needless feat tax. There's no reason to take it. If I could find the articles that gave guides on updating 3.0 characters for 3.5, I'd cite them on that issue.
And please don't link the dandwiki. Articles edited by the users are a great idea, when the users go the effort of making sure they have things correct. The dandwiki doesn't have that. The links are especially bad when an entry is nothing more than the feat name.


As for class, I'd go with Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) you gain Weapon Finesse automatically, and it's a D10 for HD. Taking levels in Exotic Weapons Master when you qualify will get you some fun tricks to use as well.
I assume the Exotic Weapon Master is for when the OP takes Weapon Focus: Elven thinblade, right? The tricks can only be used when the player is using a exotic weapon for which he has the feat Weapon Focus. (Though aptitude weapons might get around this. Ask your DM)

Also, rogue/swashbuckler with the feat daring outlaw. Pretty much redeems the swashbuckler class.

Finally, I suggest you take a gander at the Jack B Quick (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick) build.
As a base, it uses longsword/handaxe rather than dual rapiers. But if you make both your rapiers Aptitude weapons (ToB), you can suddenly use high sword/low axe, and all your other feats, with nonstandard weapons. It's the basis of using the lightning maces feat with kukris, for near infinite critical hits.

[Socratov]

yes and no... if it becomes lichter it will become easier to handle, you will be able to strike quicker, and you will tire out less. however, the weapon classes are not designed on weight, but on ease of handling. or instance, assuming you are proficient with both, handling a rapier is less difficult with one hand, then a greatsword in one hand. Armor type is designed on wieght, because let's be honest: if your armor is lighter in weight, it becomes easier to handle.

However, the feat weapon finesse is all about a different way of handling your weapon. Instead of strong strikes and brute forcing you will rely on agility and quickness of movement. Now we all know weapon finesse is only usable with light weapons and rapiers. The reason is the ease with which you can handle those weapons. Therefore it's my opinion that with weaponfinesse you actually use a rapier very much like a light weapon. Now I know it's not raw, but I think this actually follows logic. But as with every game, it's all up to the DM. The upside of this coin is: you can always ask. Especially with hard corecasters in the party (batwizard/CODzilla) you should have a decent angle.

[Flickerdart]

Now we all know weapon finesse is only usable with light weapons and rapiers.
Whip, spiked chain, elven blades of various stripe...I could go on.

[Thespianus]

To summarise a simple and decent TWF build:

4 levels of Rogue, the rest Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior, gives you weapon Finesse at Swashbuckler level 1)

always take the first Rogue level first, for the skill point boost, in these kind of builds, imho.

Use a rapier in your main hand and a kukri in your off hand (better crit range than dagger)

get the feat "Two weapon Fighting" at level 1 or 3 (it might not be very usable at level 1)
get the Feat "Daring Outlaw" at level 6, it will give you sneak attack as a Rogue of (Rogue+Swashbuckler) level.

get the feat "Telling Blow" (deals sneak attacks on your criticals)

get the feat "Craven" if you can get it pass your DM ( the book is Champions of Ruin, I believe ) to give a static damage bonus to your sneak attacks, +1/ character level. This should be multiplied on a critical Sneak attack, and arguably on a Telling Blow hit as well.

Then continue with the Improved TWF and Greater TWF if you feel up to it. You might find that you get very little mileage out of them, as you will miss alot as a TWF character, but it's not all bad.

Also, please note that there are Alternative Class features you might want to consider. The Rogue has and alternative class feature that lets you sneak attack creatures normally immune to sneak attacks when you flank them (for half sneak attack damage) You *want* this ACF, I believe it's at Rouge level 4. Not sure what book though.

There is also an ACF for the Swashbuckler called Arcane Stunt, which can come in handy. It gives you a few magical boosts a few times a day, like feather fall and expeditious retreat.

You can also look for the feat Quick Draw and then use a few Skill Tricks from Complete Scoundrel to hide weapons on yourself in order to deliver sneak attacks more often.

Also, boost your Use Magic Device skill and use wands etc to give you a more varied repertoire of fun things to do. :)

[Vladislav]

A solid build, but I would add to that a level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian and a level of Nightsong Enforcer. Doesn't hurt your sneak attack progression nor your BAB or skills, and gives you Pounce and Rage (better yet, Frenzy). Nightsong Enforcer only requires skills you're going to have anyway, and Improved Initiative, which is not a bad feat to have.

[Thespianus]

A solid build, but I would add to that a level of Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian and a level of Nightsong Enforcer. Doesn't hurt your sneak attack progression nor your BAB or skills, and gives you Pounce and Rage (better yet, Frenzy). Nightsong Enforcer only requires skills you're going to have anyway, and Improved Initiative, which is not a bad feat to have.

Definitely, adding the Barbarian helps, definitely, some may have fluff-issues with that though (mixing the Intelligent Swashbuckler with the raging Barbarian), but you're absolutely right. The Nightsong Enforcer dip is cool too, I haven't seen that as a dip-friendly prc before. Thanks.

[Flickerdart]

It could be worth replacing those classes with Ranger and Scout instead, for some sweet Skirmish action - instead of stalking around and stabbing people in the shins, you flit about the battlefield like a proper finesse fighter, leaving bodies in your wake.

Ranger 1/Barbarian 1/Scout 4 lets you grab Swift Hunter using the Scout's bonus feat. Then continue with Ranger to pick up its bonus TWF feats, and use your own actual feats for whatever you want. Everything else you can keep the same (Telling Blow, etc), get a stack of Chronocharms of the Horizon Walker to give you the movement you need for skirmish in rounds you don't charge. For extra damage dice, go into Unseen Seer (using Unseelie Dark Hunter (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030315a) if you dumped INT and CHA but not WIS, or any arcane class you care to name if you have other mentals). While you're there, use your Advanced Learning to pick up lots of super useful spells like Hunter's Eye (now you have Sneak Attack too!) or Grave Strike (now you can deal precision damage to undead!).

[Thespianus]

Given that Hunter's Eye is a Ranger spell, shouldn't he stay in Ranger, in that case? ;)

[herrhauptmann]

Don't the chronocharms state that while you can have multiple chronocharms at once, you can only use 1 of each type?

[Flickerdart]

Ranger only gets it at Ranger 8, so with the 5 other levels we're looking at ECL13 - with a CL of 4. Unseen Seer can be entered at 8th with this build, and gets Hunter's Eye at 9th with a CL of 3. By level 13, he has a CL of 8, twice that of the Ranger. He also gets more Skirmish damage - the standard Swift Hunter tops out at 5d6, while Barbarian 1/Scout 4/Ranger 4/Wizard 1/Unseen Seer 10 has 6d6, as well as 6th level spells. You do have substantially less AC when Skirmishing, though, and lose two of the TWF feats as well as some BAB (without UsS you end up at 19, with it at 17).

[Keld Denar]

Telling Blow is a trap. Barring a couple of VERY limited conditions (foe outside of 30', foe concealed, attacker has a REDICULOUS number of attacks/round), it is much better to spend part of your action to move into a situation where SA is applicable all of the time rather than gambling on a crit. Also, foes that are immune to SA are often immune to crits, so thats putting more eggs into a single basket that can be taken away. Also, focusing on crits on a SA build produces very little return on investment without Craven. SA damage doesn't multiply, so the only damage that would factor in is base weapon damage and enhancements on the weapon and any other static damage bonuses you may have.

So yea, it would generally be better to tumble into flanking to SA and get 1 attack garunteed than to gamble on getting crits. Everything else is a corner case that doesn't justify the feat expenditure on Telling Blow. Imp Critical is ok IF and ONLY IF you have Craven and/or Shadow Blade, but otherwise not worth it either.

[Thespianus]

Ranger only gets it at Ranger 8, so with the 5 other levels we're looking at ECL13 - with a CL of 4.
Fair enough, I was thinking about the Mystic Ranger, who, I believe, get 2nd level spells at level 4.

[Flickerdart]

Doesn't Mystic Ranger give up the combat style feats?

[Vladislav]

No, just delays them for a couple of levels.

[Keld Denar]

It doesn't give them up, just delays them a couple levels.

[Hanuman]

I'm actually having a bit of trouble picturing a TWF character with rapiers.

On the other hand I'd go with Jian as a re-flavoring of shortsword or rapier, as long as your DM allows the sword to deal slashing damage it should work as unlike rapiers jians have blades that can easily slice arteries or disembowel the stomach.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/10th_all_china_games_Jian_pair_406_cropped.jpg

[Greenish]

It doesn't give them up, just delays them a couple levels.And forces you to Ranged style, if my memory holds.

[Flickerdart]

Hm, you know, dropping Unseen Seer to 7 levels would give us 3 extra Ranger levels, giving us Improved TWF for free, as well as 1 more BAB and the same amount of Skirmish. You do lose three casting levels though. Dropping it by another 3 levels (for a total of 4) keeps Skirmish the same 6d6 (effective Scout level 14 for +4d6 and +2d6 from Unseen Seer). In fact, as long as you take Unseen Seer 1 (and thus, another 1 level in a casting class) you're ahead of the game, and you can snag all the combat style feats this way too.

[Thespianus]

So yea, it would generally be better to tumble into flanking to SA and get 1 attack garunteed than to gamble on getting crits. Everything else is a corner case that doesn't justify the feat expenditure on Telling Blow.
It does depend on the creatures they get to face and the level of the game, but sure. Relying on crits is a bad strategy, but think I'd rather take Telling Blow than Greater TWF

[Thespianus]

And forces you to Ranged style, if my memory holds.
Yeah, that would make it suck a bit. But there's some gloves or something that give TWF or ITWF, I believe?

EDIT: Anyway, judging from the OP, it seems that the player wants a fairly simple melee build, so maybe the casting classes should be kept to a minimum, inspite of this being 3.5 and all? :)

[herrhauptmann]

I'm actually having a bit of trouble picturing a TWF character with rapiers.


If you think of olympic fencing when someone says 'rapier,' dual wielding seems a little silly. Been looking for a video of SCA fencers going two sword, but my google-fu sucks. Also, most of what I'm finding, the fencers look to be either conserving their energy for a long fight, or it's the end of a long fight.
But, such fights are usually: Left sword binds/locks enemies sword (pull it sideways to foul enemies other sword), right sword stabs.
As enemy tries to disengage to free weapons, right sword sweeps enemy swords to the side, and left sword stabs.
Done well, it's extremely fast. Also extremely difficult to adjust force to not actually hurt the other fencer (it's only a game after all)


Yeah, that would make it suck a bit. But there's some gloves or something that give TWF or ITWF, I believe?

EDIT: Anyway, judging from the OP, it seems that the player wants a fairly simple melee build, so maybe the casting classes should be kept to a minimum, inspite of this being 3.5 and all? :)

Gloves of the balanced hand in the MiC.

[Darrin]

And forces you to Ranged style, if my memory holds.

Nope. Can still take either style.

And it's one level later, not a couple. Combat Style at Ranger 3, Ranger 7, and Ranger 12.

[ccjmk]

Wow, this has gone ages beyond my wildest understanding :P

Just for the record (and so that anyone can get me learning something new today), i originally thought about this for this reasons: (please, if i'm getting anything wrong somewhere please correct me! I'm brand new on D&D)

Elves get +2 DEX and Weapon Finesse allows me to exchange my STR modifier for my DEX modifier in attacks rolls (which is calculated on a +2 basis for being elf); As we will be playing with pointbuy, i can simply put a ****load of dex to the elf, which will grant me a high dex modifier; that, paired with the fact that TWF feat will lower my attack roll penalties to -2 (given that the DM agrees to consider Rapier as a light weapon when using Weapon Finesse) on each hand, each hand wielding a finesse-rolled rapier should give me quite a considerable attack rate, right? Oo

I can later take Weapon Specialization and Weapon Focus for further polishing my rapier techniches..

Something that worries me is how everyone notes that dualwielding deals poor damage; is it for something that i'm missing? or for the fact that regular penalties imply a high miss rate¿? Because, if i'm getting everything correctly, i seem to be lowering miss rates to a fairly reasonable minimun, hence dealing damage with both rapiers on each attack.

About the piercing damage, can someone explain me how damage types work? So far, thanks for everything! :D I got serious trouble understanding you guys, but i've been pushed to reading far more xD

[Flickerdart]

Yep, if you go 18 Dexterity and then take Elf, you'll get a Dex of 20 (Halfling's better for this, since you don't care about STR and get bonuses from small size). Even with the -2 from TWF, you'll have a pretty good to-hit.

However, your Dexterity bonus isn't doing anything for your damage. While the Human Fighter with 18 STR is whacking around with his Greatsword (+5 to-hit, 2d6+6 damage), you're two feats behind (TWF and his Human bonus feat), hit at a +4 and only deal 2d6 damage if both your attacks hit, because your damage stat is still Strength. And that's on a full attack - on a single attack, you deal 1d6. If he took Power Attack, he can lower his attack bonus to yours and get another +2 damage from it, meaning that on average he will do more than twice your damage despite having half the attacks. You need a way to add bonus damage to each attack - and you can't really do this at level 1 without Sneak Attack Fighter variant because Weapon Finesse has a prerequisite of BAB +1.

At later levels this gets worse because you have to pay for two magic weapons, which gets prohibitively expensive real fast.

Weapon Focus and Specialization suck horribly. Having a +1 to attack or a +2 to damage is not worth a feat slot. You get less feats than you do class levels, so each one should be extremely precious to you. There's a reason that Human is the best race for nearly every character build - that extra feat is just that good.

The three mundane damage types (piercing, bludgeoning and slashing) all work the same way. The only difference is against objects and some creatures (zombies, for instance, have DR/bludgeoning, so piercing and slashing weapons deal less damage to them).

[Greenish]

(skeletons, for instance, have DR/bludgeoning, so piercing and slashing weapons deal less damage to them).Fixed that for you. Zombies have DR/slashing.

[Fitz10019]

Wow, this has gone ages beyond my wildest understanding :P

Saying what books are allowed will do a lot to filter the advice down to viable options.

Also, what else do you want your character to do?

[Flickerdart]

Fixed that for you. Zombies have DR/slashing.
Well I'll be.

[Greyfeld]

If you can convince your GM to allow you to change the prereqs from Perform (singing or oratory) to Perform (any), you could make a sick Warchanter/Dervish build. Something like:

Bard3/Fighter2/WarChanter5/DervishX

Human - Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
Bard 1 - Combat Expertise
Fighter 1 - Two Weapon Fighting
Fighter 2 - Dodge, Snowflake Wardance
Bard 2
Bard 3
War Chanter 1 - Mobility
Dervish 1
Dervish 2
Dervish 3 - Open
War Chanter 2
War Chanter 3
War Chanter 4 - open
War Chanter 5
Dervish X

I don't know how others will see it in the way of being "optimized," but this build will give you the basic duel wielding build, increasing your damage with Snowflake Wardance and the Slashing Blades ability granted through the Dervish class. Inspire Recklessness and Inspire Courage can be activated at the same time with Combine Songs to shoot your attack bonus through the roof, and your Dervish Dance guarantees you get a full attack every round.

Personally, I'd like to see some levels of Scout added in for skirmish damage, but the Fighter levels are really needed for the extra feats early on, since the Dervish PrC is really feat-intensive. However, if you manage to get away with taking a couple flaws, you could probably drop those two levels in Fighter for a couple in Scout, but it would put your PrC back another level, since Scout is only 3/4 BAB.

[Greenish]

your Dervish Dance guarantees you get a full attack every round.Except that it can only be used 1/encounter.

Besides, Snowflake Wardance only boosts attack, which seems to have enough bonuses. DFI is a potent alternative.

[Ardantis]

Jeebus, guys! Give the OP the opportunity to respond.

That being said, (and I can't believe I'm saying this), listen to Flickerdart.

[Greyfeld]

Except that it can only be used 1/encounter.

Besides, Snowflake Wardance only boosts attack, which seems to have enough bonuses. DFI is a potent alternative.

Woops, thought it added to damage too. What is DFI? I keep seeing that abbreviation, but I don't know what it actually stands for.

As far as Dervish Dance, its duration is keyed off your Perform (Dance) skill. Having Snowflake Wardance means that the character is already guaranteed 3 rounds per dance, and if the player wants to use his War Chanter music, he needs at least 12 ranks, which means 6 rounds per dance.

[Talya]

DFI = Dragonfire Inspiration.

Nothing prevents a bard from using Snowflake Wardance, Inspire Courage, and DFI all at the same time. Wardance is even a free action to start and doesn't interfere with anything else.

[Psyren]

Something that worries me is how everyone notes that dualwielding deals poor damage; is it for something that i'm missing? or for the fact that regular penalties imply a high miss rate¿? Because, if i'm getting everything correctly, i seem to be lowering miss rates to a fairly reasonable minimun, hence dealing damage with both rapiers on each attack.

To make dual-wielding/finesse work, you need a high Dex - which means your stat points and buffs will go there first.

Hitting isn't a problem for you - the problem is that Dex melee does not add to your damage. So you'll be hitting a lot, but you won't have the Strength to make the attacks mean anything much. You also don't get much benefit from power attacking with these blades.


About the piercing damage, can someone explain me how damage types work? So far, thanks for everything! :D I got serious trouble understanding you guys, but i've been pushed to reading far more xD

Damage Reduction rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction)

The problem with rapiers is that they only do piercing, and piercing is unfortunately the damage type most resisted by monsters with DR (at mid/high levels, nearly all of them.) So you end up with the limitations of an archer (low damage with an unfavorable damage type) with none of the benefits (able to attack from afar.)

[Greyfeld]

To make dual-wielding/finesse work, you need a high Dex - which means your stat points and buffs will go there first.

Hitting isn't a problem for you - the problem is that Dex melee does not add to your damage. So you'll be hitting a lot, but you won't have the Strength to make the attacks mean anything much. You also don't get much benefit from power attacking with these blades.



Damage Reduction rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#damageReduction)

The problem with rapiers is that they only do piercing, and piercing is unfortunately the damage type most resisted by monsters with DR (at mid/high levels, nearly all of them.) So you end up with the limitations of an archer (low damage with an unfavorable damage type) with none of the benefits (able to attack from afar.)

Not to mention an archer can push through most DR by changing the type of arrow he uses, since there's an arrow for just about everything. (Even an arrow that deals slashing damage)

[Greenish]

Not to mention an archer can push through most DR by changing the type of arrow he uses, since there's an arrow for just about everything. (Even an arrow that deals slashing damage)Or nonlethal damage.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_aLzwvFGTR20/StOXNi058TI/AAAAAAAAAf4/qSC48x44apY/s320/250px-TrickArrow.jpg

[Thespianus]

The problem with rapiers is that they only do piercing
Which is why a Kukri in the other hand can be a lot better than a Short Sword. :)

But, yeah, you might wanna bring a light mace too, for bludgeoning fun. Get Greater Mighty Wallop on it from a friendly caster. It's even more fun. :)

[Lord Bingo]

For Bludgeoning fun you will want Morning Star -the king of simple weapons, it deals 1d8 piercing AND bludgeoning damage. No one-handed simple weapon can compete in terms of versatility as no monster that I am aware of is resistant to both Bludgeoning and Piercing damage.

[Greenish]

no monster that I am aware of is resistant to both Bludgeoning and Piercing damage.It seems the Zombie Awareness Week has not reached you, then. :smalltongue:

[Thespianus]

For Bludgeoning fun you will want Morning Star -the king of simple weapons, it deals 1d8 piercing AND bludgeoning damage. No one-handed simple weapon can compete in terms of versatility as no monster that I am aware of is resistant to both Bludgeoning and Piercing damage.
True, but it's not a light weapon and thus no good for your off hand when you are TWFing. ;)

[Hanuman]

Skeletons have DR5/B... no flesh or organs to bludgeon... lets chalk that one up to unholy bone strength.

As for why its not resistant let alone concealed to piercing damage, I haven't got a clue.


True, but it's not a light weapon and thus no good for your off hand when you are TWFing. ;)
Small morning star?

[Lyndworm]

Skeletons are resistant to Piercing damage... That's what DR/Bludgeoning means.

[Greyfeld]

Skeletons have DR5/B... no flesh or organs to bludgeon... lets chalk that one up to unholy bone strength.

As for why its not resistant let alone concealed to piercing damage, I haven't got a clue.


Small morning star?

You take a -2 penalty to your attack rolls with that weapon for using weapons inappropriately sized for your character.

If you really want a light off-hand blunt weapon, pick up a Light Mace or Light Hammer. The former deals 1d6 just like a Short Sword, but only crits on a 20. The latter only deals 1d4 damage, but has a x4 crit modifier.

[Thespianus]

Skeletons have DR5/B... no flesh or organs to bludgeon... lets chalk that one up to unholy bone strength.

As for why its not resistant let alone concealed to piercing damage, I haven't got a clue.
Damage Resistance works by listing the damage type that the monster is NOT resistant to. So DR 5/Bludgeoning means that all other damage types gets reduced by 5. Bludgeoning damage goes through the DR.



Small morning star?
Would mean a -2 size difference penalty on attack rolls.

There is no "light morningstar"

[Hanuman]

Skeletons are resistant to Piercing damage... That's what DR/Bludgeoning means.
Ah man I must be basic! -Bob

[herrhauptmann]

Skeletons have DR5/B... no flesh or organs to bludgeon... lets chalk that one up to unholy bone strength.

The thing listed after the slash, that indicates what bypasses the damage reduction.
So it's easy to bash a skeleton,that always does bone damage. So what there's no organs to rupture, you've crushed the pelvis so it can't walk. And shatter its arms, so it can't swing at you.
Stabbing and slicing, doesn't have much effect on animated bones. There's no muscle/tendon to sever, or vital arteries to lacerate.



As for why its not resistant let alone concealed to piercing damage, I haven't got a clue.
I've no clue what you were trying to say there. Maybe you forgot to type a word?



Small morning star?
You'll take penalties for using an improperly sized weapon. Which is what, a -2 or a -4? As bad, or worse than penalties for fighting with a one handed weapon

edit:
I gotta type faster, bloody ninjas...

[Xtomjames]

Not so: (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm#mithral)

Which makes some sense - a weapon's category isn't simply about its weight but about how its balanced and how it's wielded. A greatsword doesn't become a practical one-handed weapon just because it's made to weigh less - it's still built to be used with two hands.

I do believe I said, it's an arguable point to discuss with the DM. Since a rapier is functional with weapon finesse (as is the case with all light weapons) it should be on par with light weapons (logically) and the only thing separating it by designation is weight. It's a common houserule that by making a weapon lighter makes it a type lower. Yes in some cases, like a full claymore which is something like 6 feet in length halving it's weight wouldn't necessarily make it a one-handed weapon. On the other hand the only reason why a Long sword is a one-handed weapon and a short sword is a light weapon is weight. A short sword is all of two inches shorter than a longsword.

One of the major problems with combat and the categorical system of light weapon, one-handed, and two-handed, is that it doesn't logically fit to all weapons.

In real life an iron claymore compared to a steel claymore compared to a titanium claymore would have vast differences in weight and thus functionality. An iron claymore would weight nearly 50 lbs, a steel claymore is near 30, and a titanium claymore is near 15. I can wield one handedly without issue both a steel and titanium claymore, but an iron claymore I'd have problems with two handed, let alone one handed.

My point is that some of the rules (like making the weapon out of mithral not making a weapon change type category) is a bad rule. Now if we're going explicitly by RAW then yes, I agree with you, making it out of mithral won't change the category type. However, as always talking to the DM and explaining the point will probably help you out, and I'll stand by my point that making it out of mithral will change it's category to light.

[herrhauptmann]

In real life an iron claymore compared to a steel claymore compared to a titanium claymore would have vast differences in weight and thus functionality. An iron claymore would weight nearly 50 lbs, a steel claymore is near 30, and a titanium claymore is near 15. I can wield one handedly without issue both a steel and titanium claymore, but an iron claymore I'd have problems with two handed, let alone one handed.


15 pounds is absurdly heavy for a real life weapon. You're not Cloud with the Buster Sword. Nor are you Guts with the Dragonslaying Sword. The only blades that were heavy, were showpiece swords, or ones made so the smith could show off his skill. And those were intentionally made large in the process.

As for steel vs iron...
Steel is harder/stronger than iron, yes. That means you can make something from steel (iron and carbon alloy) that you can't make from regular iron. That's why swords from the iron age were small, they were iron, it wasn't possible to make a blade with a 3.5ft long (or longer) blade that wouldn't break.
But making a sword out of steel vs iron, doesn't halve the weight instantaneously.

[Thespianus]

On the other hand the only reason why a Long sword is a one-handed weapon and a short sword is a light weapon is weight. A short sword is all of two inches shorter than a longsword.
There's over a foot of difference between the longsword and the shortsword in the PHB.

And those are the rules we go by, I assume?

[Hanuman]

15 pounds is absurdly heavy for a real life weapon. You're not Cloud with the Buster Sword. Nor are you Guts with the Dragonslaying Sword. The only blades that were heavy, were showpiece swords, or ones made so the smith could show off his skill. And those were intentionally made large in the process.

As for steel vs iron...
Steel is harder/stronger than iron, yes. That means you can make something from steel (iron and carbon alloy) that you can't make from regular iron. That's why swords from the iron age were small, they were iron, it wasn't possible to make a blade with a 3.5ft long (or longer) blade that wouldn't break.
But making a sword out of steel vs iron, doesn't halve the weight instantaneously.
Real men, ones who lift the heavy buckets of water and plow the fields, they have 10str.
According to carry cap 10str == 1/3 18str, so personally I'd say a sword would be halved in difficulty of use depending on weight, maybe a third if he had Powerful Build.

Personally I prefer a straight sword over large amounts of metal for combat for the same reason we started using guns vs. cannons. But for theme sake I really prefer a heightened size greatmaul, kanabo or other such very very heavy trauma weapons. When I play a hammer wielder I usually stat my hammer around 20-35lbs and to be honest if you had a sword that heavy it's not going to be the sword that's blocking your ability to fight, your muscles will simply be too big to wield it. In the movie Conan the Barbarian, Arnold had to stop working out so hard and slim down because of the same problem-- his muscles were simply too big to use it properly.


Weapons deal high and low damage simply due to the bickering of nerds, personally I'd tend to think that a 10lb piece of sharp metal would be better at cutting through spines of large game than a 1/2lb piece of metal regardless if we are talking real life or in a simulation of real life.

[darksolitaire]

In real life an iron claymore compared to a steel claymore compared to a titanium claymore would have vast differences in weight and thus functionality. An iron claymore would weight nearly 50 lbs, a steel claymore is near 30, and a titanium claymore is near 15.


Claymore, as in, claymore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore)?



I can wield one handedly without issue both a steel and titanium claymore, but an iron claymore I'd have problems with two handed, let alone one handed.


Geezus, you're one strong fellow, I give you that.

[Thespianus]

Claymore, as in, claymore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore)?

Yeah, he's off with about a factor of 8. But I'm sure the discussion ought to be over anyway. The rules of the game are pretty simple in this case.

[Flickerdart]

In real life an iron claymore compared to a steel claymore compared to a titanium claymore would have vast differences in weight and thus functionality. An iron claymore would weight nearly 50 lbs, a steel claymore is near 30, and a titanium claymore is near 15. I can wield one handedly without issue both a steel and titanium claymore, but an iron claymore I'd have problems with two handed, let alone one handed.
Let us assume a two metre long weapon (which is at the extreme end of a two-hander's length). Let us furthermore assume a width of 10 centimetres, and a thickness of 1 centimetre (ridiculously thick for a sword). Such a sword would have a volume of 2000 cubic centimetres. A solid iron bar of this volume would weigh 34.7 pounds. A more likely blade thickness, 0.5cm (even then, more like a club, because a sword needs to have sharpened edges) gives us a blade weight of around 17 pounds for a very long, very wide, very thick weapon. In order to line up with your "statistics", the weapon would need to have a pommel that weighs 33 pounds - the weight of two adult badgers.

In order to have a claymore that weighs anywhere close to that, you would need to make it out of osmium or iridium, and then still have it be really freakin' oversized.

[Yuki Akuma]

In real life an iron claymore compared to a steel claymore compared to a titanium claymore would have vast differences in weight and thus functionality. An iron claymore would weight nearly 50 lbs, a steel claymore is near 30, and a titanium claymore is near 15. I can wield one handedly without issue both a steel and titanium claymore, but an iron claymore I'd have problems with two handed, let alone one handed.

Do you honestly think there were real weapons that weigh as much as a small child?

Fifty pounds is insane.

Fifty pounds is about the weight of a cannonball. You can not swing that around, no matter how good its balance is. You could barely lift it.

[Spiryt]

I'm more interested where one can find "titanium claymore" to wield without issue, personally.

That's some fascinating stuff. :smalltongue:


In the movie Conan the Barbarian, Arnold had to stop working out so hard and slim down because of the same problem-- his muscles were simply too big to use it properly.

That doesn't really make sense, people with muscles bigger than Arnold fight pretty easily, and he wasn't doing any actual fighting at all, he was acting... :smallconfused:

Bodybuilder muscles even back then were pretty much in definition muscles overbuild over the healthy level of persons skeletal & cardio frame, but by no means that detrimental to athletic stuff.


Fifty pounds is about the weight of a cannonball. You can not swing that around, no matter how good its balance is. You could barely lift it.

Eh, if you're one Behemot of a man, you can lift it and swing it around.

In such case you still obviously would want sword weighing ~ 10 pounds, because "swinging around" and "fighting" is not the same.

50 pounds would be in fact ridiculous even for sledghammer which only purpose is to deliver maximal impulse over some piece of stone or whatever.

[Yuki Akuma]

Bodybuilder muscles are generally mostly water and don't have much in the way of actual strength to them*.

There's a reason the strongest men in the world - the guys who can tow 747s - do not have particularly defined muscles.

*Note that a bodybuilder will still be stronger than a regular guy. Obviously, he exercises. But his huge muscles are not as strong as the regular guy's muscles, pound for pound.

[Spiryt]

Bodybuilder muscles are generally mostly water and don't have much in the way of actual strength to them.

There's a reason the strongest men in the world - the guys who can tow 747s - do not have particularly defined muscles.

:smallconfused:

All muscles are mostly water, and Arnold, out of all guys had pretty good strength results, in fact ridiculous ones compared to 'average Joe".

Guys who tow 747's usually have a whole lot of fat on them indeed, but that doesn't mean that their muscles are very different.

Difference is simply in methods of training and stuff, with different goal in mind - ridiculous physical strength & stuff in one case vs having muscles as visible and ripped as possible.

[Yuki Akuma]

Bodybuilder muscles are more mostly water than less defined muscles? :smalltongue:

That definition doesn't do much for actual strength.

Yes, Arnold is strong, but he's also pretty huge anyway.

[Spiryt]

*Note that a bodybuilder will still be stronger than a regular guy. Obviously, he exercises. But his huge muscles are not as strong as the regular guy's muscles, pound of pound.

Yes, they are stronger "pound for pound". Just not as strong as they could be if he was training for actual,say, static strength, instead of for covering himself in cacao and flexing a lot.


That definition doesn't do much for actual strength.

"Definition" is mostly just body fat percentage, so yes, it does nothing for strength directly.

Just most of powerlifters would have trouble trying to beas strong while trying to hold a sixpack at the same time.

Or it would be "just" so much additional effort in training, eating and roiding, that they don't find it worth it.

[herrhauptmann]

Claymore, as in, claymore (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claymore)?

Geezus, you're one strong fellow, I give you that.
Yeah, I'm actually going to call shenanigans on the claim of wielding a weapon that big.

Let us assume a two metre long weapon (which is at the extreme end of a two-hander's length). Let us furthermore assume a width of 10 centimetres, and a thickness of 1 centimetre (ridiculously thick for a sword). Such a sword would have a volume of 2000 cubic centimetres. A solid iron bar of this volume would weigh 34.7 pounds. A more likely blade thickness, 0.5cm (even then, more like a club, because a sword needs to have sharpened edges) gives us a blade weight of around 17 pounds for a very long, very wide, very thick weapon. In order to line up with your "statistics", the weapon would need to have a pommel that weighs 33 pounds - the weight of two adult badgers.

In order to have a claymore that weighs anywhere close to that, you would need to make it out of osmium or iridium, and then still have it be really freakin' oversized.
I'm totally with you there Flickerdart.
And I'll stick with my assertion that a 'iron' (not steel) sword could not be 6feet long. Especially when it weighs 50 pounds. It would deform under its own weight.

Do you honestly think there were real weapons that weigh as much as a small child?

Fifty pounds is insane.

Fifty pounds is about the weight of a cannonball. You can not swing that around, no matter how good its balance is. You could barely lift it.
Swords that size are why soldiers shifted to wearing two or three shirts of chainmail at once anyway. Which led to the evolution of the 60 pound claymore. :smallamused:
Or you know, people could start wearing plate, and suddenly they're nearly immune to a mere slashing weapon anyway. Making maces and picks suddenly so much more effective for war. While knights (social class, not character class) kept their swords to put down peasants and other unarmored rabble.


Ahhh, found a 46 pound sword. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un1M7xbCCIs
And a 54 pound sword. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNc7kHADtUw&feature=related

[Yuki Akuma]

Yes, they are stronger "pound for pound". Just not as strong as they could be if he was training for actual,say, static strength, instead of for covering himself in cacao and flexing a lot.



"Definition" is mostly just body fat percentage, so yes, it does nothing for strength directly.

Just most of powerlifters would have trouble trying to beas strong while trying to hold a sixpack at the same time.

Or it would be "just" so much additional effort in training, eating and roiding, that they don't find it worth it.

Maybe I'm just making it up, because I can't remember where I read this.

Oh well, I still say Arnold is strong because he's naturally huge. :smalltongue:

[herrhauptmann]

Maybe I'm just making it up, because I can't remember where I read this.

Oh well, I still say Arnold is strong because he's naturally huge. :smalltongue:

I think at his best, Arnolds benchpress put him at the 18/91-99, maybe even 18/00 strength in the 2nd edition strength charts.
That's ludicrously strong compared to the average man. But a serious weightlifter or bodybuilder can get to that point.

When I was still active duty, my department had 3 guys I saw that got to that point. Weightlifting while deployed required a roll of ducttape for them. Otherwise, they couldn't fit enough weights on the bar for it to be worth their time. :smalleek:

[Spiryt]

And I'll stick with my assertion that a 'iron' (not steel) sword could not be 6feet long. Especially when it weighs 50 pounds. It would deform under its own weight.

It all depends on "iron" but yeah, most iron swords weren't really longer than 3 feet at very top.

On the other hand, swords in general started to surpass those ~3 feet in long after anybody was really making any swords out of "pure" iron, so it's in no way anything what one would call "evidence". :smallwink:


Maybe I'm just making it up, because I can't remember where I read this.

Oh well, I still say Arnold is strong because he's naturally huge. :smalltongue:

I don't think he was really naturally huge, very few prof body builders are, as it's in fact detrimental in their job.

[Keld Denar]

Fifty pounds is about the weight of a cannonball. You can not swing that around, no matter how good its balance is. You could barely lift it.

OSHA has laws against people lifting that much weight unassisted in the workplace. Just an FYI.

[Yuki Akuma]

Mr. Schwarzenegger is 6'2". He is, in fact, pretty huge.

[Spiryt]

Mr. Schwarzenegger is 6'2". He is, in fact, pretty huge.

Well - that's tall and not even that tall, not huge. *

I know a guy who's ~ 6'4 and he's not huge as he's very lanky, and weights roughly the same as 5'9 me with similar levels of chub.

Height is by no means human only dimension. :smallwink:

And while Arnold build was pretty damn big, I wouldn't classify it as huge.... But that entirely depends on what one call huge.


*Aside from the fact that this height is probably grossly overstated. Most of actors, BB-ers, sportsmen and whoever height is "improved" by ~ 1 inch usually, due to some probably quite interesting ego/psychological/marketing reasons. People are probably writing their diploma thesis about it somewhere.


I think at his best, Arnolds benchpress put him at the 18/91-99, maybe even 18/00 strength in the 2nd edition strength charts.

Benchpress can't really give a good measure of whole static strength, leave alone D&D "Strength" which is also supposed to be about punching, swiming and other more dynamic power activities.

But for what it's worth he supposedly was bench pressing ~500 pounds and dead lifting 700 at his best.

EDIT: Oh, and:

http://gfx.mmka.pl/newsph/333036/502219.3.jpg

[herrhauptmann]

Benchpress can't really give a good measure of whole static strength, leave alone D&D "Strength" which is also supposed to be about punching, swiming and other more dynamic power activities.

But for what it's worth he supposedly was bench pressing ~500 pounds and dead lifting 700 at his best.

EDIT: Oh, and:

http://gfx.mmka.pl/newsph/333036/502219.3.jpg

Believe me, I understand that. But the benchpress was about the only aspect of the 2nd ed strength chart I could remember besides the 'bend bars/ lift gates' percentile.
Some of the activities that can be a measure of real life strength, they also rely on body mechanics as well. So a smaller guy with better technique can outperform one who's actually bigger/stronger.

To reiterate:
A 46 pound sword. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un1M7xbCCIs
And a 54 pound sword. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNc7k...eature=related

[Keld Denar]

That's it. I'm sick of all this "50 Pound Sword" bullsh*t that's going on in the d20 system right now. Buster swords deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.

I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine buster sword in Midgar for 2,400,000 Gil (that's about $20,000) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even cut slabs of solid steel with my buster sword.

Midgar smiths spend years working on a single buster sword and fold it up to a million times to produce the finest blades known to mankind.

Buster swords are thrice as sharp as European swords and thrice as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a buster sword can cut through better. I'm pretty sure a buster sword could easily bisect a knight wearing full plate with a simple vertical slash.

Ever wonder why medieval Europe never bothered conquering Midgar? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined SOLDIERs and their buster swords of destruction. Even in World War II, American soldiers targeted the men with the buster swords first because their killing power was feared and respected.

So what am I saying? Huge swords are simply the best sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for buster swords:

(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d12 Damage
19-20 x4 Crit
+2 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
2d10 Damage
17-20 x4 Crit
+5 to hit and damage
Counts as Masterwork

Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of 50 lb swords in real life, don't you think?

tl;dr = Buster swords need to do more damage in d20, see my new stat block.

[Thespianus]

That's so not enough...

Buster Swords should *obviously* give the wielder *at least* 10ft reach as well, and allow attacks at both 5ft and 10ft. They're HUGE! And Awesome!

The Two Handed version should also have 15ft reach and allow the wielder to bypass any DR, just because of the awesome weight and strength of the Buster Swords.

Apart from that, the meme has been translated beautifully ;)

[herrhauptmann]

I need a facepalm emote...

Though that was beautiful, just beautiful.

[Hiro Protagonest]

That's it. I'm sick of all this "50 Pound Sword" bull**** that's going on in the d20 system right now. Buster swords deserve much worse than that. Much, much worse than that.
I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine buster sword in Midgar for 120 Gil (that's about $1) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can't even cut wooden boards with my buster sword.
Midgar smiths spend years working on a single buster sword and fold it up to a million times to produce some of the biggest pieces of crap known to mankind.
Buster swords are barely half as sharp as European swords and half as hard for that matter too. Anything a longsword can cut through, a buster sword can't cut through at all. I'm pretty sure a buster sword would break trying to cut a knight wearing full plate with any kind of slash.
Ever wonder why Midgar never bothered conquering Europe? That's right, they were too scared to fight the disciplined Knights and their Oakeshott types X through XXII of destruction. Even in World War II, Midgar soldiers targeted the men with the mamelukes first because their killing power was feared and respected.
So what am I saying? Buster swords are simply the worst sword that the world has ever seen, and thus, require worse stats in the d20 system. Here is the stat block I propose for Buster swords:
(One-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d4 Damage
x2 Crit
-2 to hit and damage
Can never count as Masterwork
(Two-Handed Exotic Weapon)
1d6 Damage
x2 Crit
-1 to hit and damage
Can never count as Masterwork
Now that seems a lot more representative of the cutting power of Buster swords in real life, don't you think?
tl;dr = Buster swords need to do much less in d20, see my new stat block.

[Hanuman]

Fifty pounds is insane.

Fifty pounds is about the weight of a cannonball. You can not swing that around, no matter how good its balance is. You could barely lift it.
It'd be hard for a child to lift it, but 10STR assumes you are a medieval carpenter, not a medieval couchpotato. I can lift and carry readily 80+lb backpacks, I could probably go over a hundred if i tried. I'm a mesomorphic 23 year old male and I'm fit, that means I have about 10-11 str.



1) That doesn't really make sense, people with muscles bigger than Arnold fight pretty easily, and he wasn't doing any actual fighting at all, he was acting... :smallconfused:
Bodybuilder muscles even back then were pretty much in definition muscles overbuild over the healthy level of persons skeletal & cardio frame, but by no means that detrimental to athletic stuff.
2)Eh, if you're one Behemot of a man, you can lift it and swing it around.
In such case you still obviously would want sword weighing ~ 10 pounds, because "swinging around" and "fighting" is not the same.
50 pounds would be in fact ridiculous even for sledghammer which only purpose is to deliver maximal impulse over some piece of stone or whatever.
1) Said wield.
2) Sledgehammers are also not weapons, they are commercial-grade tools. If you didn't have to sacrifice size, safety and cost I could see a 40lb iron pole being used as a weapon, maximum leverage between 2 arms and a lot of conserved and easily applied momentum.


Bodybuilder muscles are generally mostly water and don't have much in the way of actual strength to them*.

There's a reason the strongest men in the world - the guys who can tow 747s - do not have particularly defined muscles.

*Note that a bodybuilder will still be stronger than a regular guy. Obviously, he exercises. But his huge muscles are not as strong as the regular guy's muscles, pound for pound.
Body builders generally trap a lot of toxins and fat in their muscles because of the lack of density and the lack of circulation and relaxation of the muscles, but they also tend to have the highest concentration of twitch fibers which while it would not be great for adding to Swim, it would def. make lifting things, smashing things, and swinging and stopping precisely with a sword in mid-swing much easier.

Of course the lack of density in the muscle fibers lets lactic acid build up more readily, so its overall a poor combat choice unless you are in a world of spirits and fairies.


Of course more relaxed muscles are healthier, and more effective in combat-- I'm training to be a military medic right now-- I wanted fire fighter but it's way too competitive right now. Military fire fighters are some of the most efficient and strongest people out there, they have a really really physically demanding job, http://www.cfpsa.com/en/psp/Fitness/doclib/FFPre-Entry.pdf

Again, if you require more information about how "strength" works I can suggest anatomy, physiology, kinesiology, martial arts and physical training texts. That is the most useful thing you can do to preserve the knowledge of strength, having non-cited neckbeardy arguments is not =P [/rant]

[Flickerdart]

It'd be hard for a child to lift it, but 10STR assumes you are a medieval carpenter, not a medieval couchpotato. I can lift and carry readily 80+lb backpacks, I could probably go over a hundred if i tried. I'm a mesomorphic 23 year old male and I'm fit, that means I have about 10-11 str.
Ok, now take that backpack, make it 2 metres long and try to use it as a weapon.

[Hanuman]

Ok, now take that backpack, make it 2 metres long and try to use it as a weapon.
That's insane! :smallbiggrin: