[3.5ish]Fiends Falling Up?

[CockroachTeaParty]

Angels falling from grace is a common theme in fiction and fantasy. In most D&D cosmologies, 99.9999% of a given group of outsiders follow a specific alignment, usually the one that dominates the outer plane in which they live. For these outsiders, its less of a conscious choice, and more of an innate part of who and what they are.

It's relatively easy to understand celestials falling from grace, whether through temptation, corruption of their ideals, or any number of things.

What I'm interested in is the opposite event. What might make a fiend 'fall from grace,' as it were, into the good alignments?

I'm interested in examples within published adventures and works within D&D worlds, as well as similar cases elsewhere.

Perhaps even more so, I'm interested in hearing your thoughts and ideas on the subject. What could make a creature such as a demon, a being composed almost entirely of capricious malice and depravity, switch teams? Would it happen more or less often than celestials turning evil?

[Aldizog]

I think it would happen far less often, as I'd imagine the Upper Planes forgiving minor lapses and even trying to redeem those in the process of falling, but the Lower Planes instantly turning on anybody who shows any sign of weakness or being less than 100% devoted to Evil. And the corrupting nature of power isn't a two-way street; a Pit Fiend does not get corrupted towards good by his power. Still, the fact that Good tries to redeem Evil might mean there are some successes.

In the printed WotC material, it's vanishingly rare but not impossible. I'd run it as truly impossible for the True Demons and Greater Devils, such that a Balor is in fact a creature of hate, rage, and evil personified. Its very essence is comprised of Evil, and if it ceases to be those things, its substance withers away. Of course it has free will and a choice; it can choose to stop doing evil, which would make it gradually fade into nothingness (if it is not destroyed by its peers for its weakness). I am in favor of at least some things in the multiverse being truly alien and not just humans in funny makeup.

But in the literature, I'm still kind of partial to Crowley from Good Omens. He didn't exactly fall upwards, but he kind of mellowed out from his time on earth.

[Saintheart]

In terms of concept and how often angels fall as opposed to devils falling up, I actually think the old "Express Elevator to Hell" versus "Stairway to Heaven" is apt: it's easy to get down there, but it's a long, exhausting, and hard road to go in the other direction. Thus, more falls down than falls up.

[Gensh]

Generally speaking, it just doesn't happen. Note how the succubus paladin remained a succubus despite being the exact opposite of her default alignment. Really, I think it has a lot to do with common conceptions of "perfection," that letting a former fiend join the angelic ranks would somehow make them "dirty." After all, it's a lot harder to change to good than to evil, so why aren't those who succeed in doing so rewarded? Incidentally, there's also the Sanctified template in BoED, but that's terrible, and it's never used.

[Vemynal]

this is a very specific case from a book series called the Nightside by Simon Greene.

Its in the 4th book; one of the character that John Taylor teams up with is a man with a Succubus that follows him around.

His back story:
During his life he sells his soul to a devil for true love. He has his wish granted and meets a beautiful woman. They buy a house, have wonderful children and he lives happily ever after until his death 20 years later in a car accident.

When he dies and is sent to Hell the devil (not Satan) reveals that his "true love" was really a succubus who never loved him and in fact was only with him to fulfill the pact as she was instructed to do. Their children weren't real and his whole life had been a lie.

The man had been conned into thinking he'd been happy and had been loved. They revealed this to him after his death as part of his torment he was to receive in Hell.

This didn't break him or make him hate the Succubus. He kept on loving her, through the years of torment and torture until finally Hell itself rejected him because of his love. They couldn't hold him. But because of his pact with devils he was unable to enter heaven. So he was sent back to the mortal world again (alive I believe).

The succubus follows him back to earth, trying to understand his love for her. The entire concept was foreign to her. She was evil made whole, all she knew was of lust and corruption. Not love.

Throughout the book the Succubus character proceeds to repeatedly place herself in danger for the man who loves her and she serves him. In truth she's simply trying to corrupt him because the moment he hates her he will fall back to hell.

At the end of the book when their group is faced with a force that would TPK the lot of them, the Succubus steps in front of the man who loves her. Willing to die to defend the life of the man who loves her. To protect his love for her.

This redeems her and she ascends to heaven as an angel (in this series, all the devils were fallen angels originally). Making her the "Devil that Ascended" or "the Angel made whole"

This was because she learned to love again, from this mortal man who would not give up his love for her.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

The problem is in the D&D cosmology, love is not a good alignment specific trait. A devil who loves a mortal might sacrifice her/himself and still return to their plane from which they came. They wouldn't necessarily ascend.

In any event, its the only story of a Devil ascending to the upper planes that I know of so I thought I'd share it. Hope it helps!
And sorry for the lack of names, its been like 2 years since I read the book.

[CTrees]

I love this inversion of the normal Fall. I just... do, to the point that good-aligned tieflings/half-fiends are common character concepts I at least look at.

Also, I'll point out Fall-From-Grace, the succubus cleric in Planescape:Torment.

[Aldizog]

I love this inversion of the normal Fall. I just... do, to the point that good-aligned tieflings/half-fiends are common character concepts I at least look at.

Of course, tieflings and half-fiends aren't necessarily evil to start with, but it is a strong possibility, so I see your point there.

Though, for me, the hellbred is very compelling -- started as a human, did some really bad things, and found redemption not quite in time, but not quite too late. I have not yet had the opportunity to play one, though.

[NecroRick]

Niven and Pournelle did a modern rewrite of Dante's Inferno that is about people being redeemed from hell. Contrast that with what D&D's fiend folio (or whatever the 3.0/5 equivalent is) says about what happens to lawful evil people when they die.

As for the 'falling up' thing, I believe quite a few made up mythologies have angles and demons battling, but they are actually different expressions of the same race, Diablo and Warcraft have themes along those general lines.

There is a small but statistically significant number of movies about angels coming down from heaven and duking it out on earth. In one of them one of the angels is going up against lucifer, but lucifer just laughs at him, because by rebelling against God's orders not to try to end the war between heaven and hell prematurely in that fashion, he has actually come under lucifer's authority, because rebellion _is his_ domain...

Similarly, in a scenarios where devils are angels who fell from grace, perhaps the harder the devil's try to rebel against satan, the more they come under his power. Wars inn hell might be common. Satan might even secretly encourage them, in order to increase his power over his underlings...

There is a recent TV show where the boys parents sold his soul to the devil, and now he has to do supernatural errands for him. In it they have a group of reformed "demons anonymous" ex-angels who believe they can regain God's favour by killing off the devil.

In Christian theology, God's grace is reserved for humans. Demons are unable to be redeemed from their fallen state because they have fallen much further than humans, and their consciences are much too seared. Besides, with the demons it is not a matter of convincing them that Jesus is the Son of God - they know it better than anyone. Read through the gospels and you will see that whenever Jesus comes into contact with demons they totally lose their **** and beg him not to lay the smack down on their candy asses. Really interesting stuff.

[Drachasor]

Eh, I'd say if anything there's more incentive to fall up than down. Life is a lot less brutal.

Honestly, I don't think either one is talked about much. I'd imagine if falling from good is talked about more, it is just because that creates enemies for the PCs to fight.

[Kenneth]

Yes a fiend can be redeemed ( or fall up as you put it) just as often as a celestial can have a fall. The difference is as one has said already celestials are more forgiving so whne one starts to slide a bit, they do not do the whole instantly turn on and kill said individual like a fiend would.


Love is really the only thing (in my opinion) that would make a fiend be redeemed. the example Vemynal gave was the best ever! BUt iw oudl have to disagree with his love isn't a good only emtion. It is. what you see as love coming form a fiend isn't true love its greed, jealousy, lust and maybe 1 or 2 other emtions that budnled together resemble love. (you can look at real life mayhaps even your own and find where you thought you were in love and in relaity it was a mixture of some other emotions disguising itself as love)

Real, true honest down to your very core Love is in actuallity pure good ( at least to me) thought I cannot think of any specific D&D redeemed fiend examples there are litteraly uncountable examples of love overocming and uplifitng an evil person in fantasy and sci-fi literature.


anyways I just wanna give another AWESOME EXAMPLE shout out to Vemynal for being so fully awesome.

[CockroachTeaParty]

anyways I just wanna give another AWESOME EXAMPLE shout out to Vemynal for being so fully awesome.

I'll second that notion.

It's always been my understanding that the most needed resource for a fiend to ascend is time. As many of you have said, of course, that is not a resource easily attained in the blood-soaked, carnage-laden lower planes. A fiend on their way to redemption will likely be destroyed by his fellows before he even has the time to realize what's happening to him.

Here's a thought (minor spoilers):

In the Savage Tide adventure path, one of the later adventures features an Abyssal prison. Inside, the characters meet a few angels and archons who were imprisoned there. They have been imprisoned there so long, that the chaotic and evil nature of the Abyss has seeped into their beings, and corrupted them. Originally Lawful Good, by the time the characters find them they are Chaotic Neutral, leaning towards Evil.

Are there any celestial prisons to mirror this phenomenon? Could an imprisoned fiend slowly be 'corrupted' by the philosophical essence of an upper plane? Although it was primarily a venue for torture and depravity, the very existence of an Abyssal prison would imply that the upper planes likely have prisons as well; I imagine such places to be much less harsh, of course. Again, an imprisoned fiend would have lots of time to 'absorb goodness,' and experience things like honor, decency, compassion, etc.

[nyarlathotep]

I believe there was one Planescape story of an ultraloth that was eventually redeemed. It was imprisoned by other fiends for some failing and through centuries of sensory deprivation sort of just resigned itself to never getting out as it had no leverage, nothing to offer to people who could free it. So one day some mortal adventurers do free him despite knowing what he is because they think that even for a field being locked up while conscious for eternity is too much. Being stripped of most of his power he follows them to find out what could have motivated them to free him, and he gradually learns how a good creature is motivated and ends up ascending to be some form of celestial.



Are there any celestial prisons to mirror this phenomenon? Could an imprisoned fiend slowly be 'corrupted' by the philosophical essence of an upper plane? Although it was primarily a venue for torture and depravity, the very existence of an Abyssal prison would imply that the upper planes likely have prisons as well; I imagine such places to be much less harsh, of course. Again, an imprisoned fiend would have lots of time to 'absorb goodness,' and experience things like honor, decency, compassion, etc.

I once played a modron that was corrupted this way into becoming a paladin, but that was just because the seas of Celestia were the battleground for part of the modron civil war in this campaign.

[Lord_Gareth]

I do find it curious to note that no one makes the argument that Celestials shouldn't fall because they're made of good, but many people claim Fiends shouldn't rise because they're made of evil. Does this not seem kinda hypocritical to you?

[Shadow Lord]

I do find it curious to note that no one makes the argument that Celestials shouldn't fall because they're made of good, but many people claim Fiends shouldn't rise because they're made of evil. Does this not seem kinda hypocritical to you?

Yup, as well as the people saying love is OMGETFBBQ GOOD. I might go more in depth later, but suffice it to say, love is something that is, if anything, pure neutral.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Are there any celestial prisons to mirror this phenomenon? Could an imprisoned fiend slowly be 'corrupted' by the philosophical essence of an upper plane? Although it was primarily a venue for torture and depravity, the very existence of an Abyssal prison would imply that the upper planes likely have prisons as well; I imagine such places to be much less harsh, of course. Again, an imprisoned fiend would have lots of time to 'absorb goodness,' and experience things like honor, decency, compassion, etc.
That's sort of the backstory for Fall-From-Grace in Planescape: Torment. She's a succubus, but shortly after she was created she was sold to devils, and her nature changed because she'd spent so much time in Hell.

It's not exactly falling up, but it's close.

I think there's also a Forgotten Realms book series about a half-fiend who turns to good after getting stuck in the House of the Triad and meeting her half-drow son, who is a paladin.

[Sarco_Phage]

I do find it curious to note that no one makes the argument that Celestials shouldn't fall because they're made of good, but many people claim Fiends shouldn't rise because they're made of evil. Does this not seem kinda hypocritical to you?

Yes. Yes, it does.

Several of the 9 are former top-rank angels. If they could fall so far and so hard, can't a devil similarly rise?

I dunno about Demons rising though, they seem too... ravenous.

[Lord_Gareth]

I dunno about Demons rising though, they seem too... ravenous.

Most Eldarins have Barbarian levels. Also, succubi, full stop, what with their 'not killing people' method of accomplishing Evil. See also Adarus, which might rise into Robin-Hood like beings.

[peacenlove]

In the old 2nd edition Book of Celestials (don't remember exact name) you could see a picture of a redeemed osyluth. The book tackled tis concept simply by saying that the rise of fiends was as common as the fall of angels, and the risen fiends changed their appearance to match their new alignment. Lastly the fiends are under strict supervision, since the celestials have been tricked before by false redempion.

Since fiends and angels are created by mortal sins and virtues in a D&D cosmology, the possibility for a fiend to embrace another way of life and alignment and to serve under a different cause is not unreal. However for this to happen, he must be removed from the influence of his home plane, since it influences even creatures of different alignment.



I dunno about Demons rising though, they seem too... ravenous.

Depends on edition.
3rd: Chaotic ~= warlike (eladrins were also shown to be sword diplomacy guys/gals, and don't get me started on the slaad, of which the gray one, the personification of pure chaos, is shown to be evil rather than neutral "by the corruption of pure chaos").
In pathfinder however there are many demon lords that are indifferent or even disdainful of combat or savagery (Nocticula and her brother/lover, Abraxas, who is an oddity since he hoards knowldge and even promotes the production of more, etc).

[Sarco_Phage]

Most Eldarins have Barbarian levels. Also, succubi, full stop, what with their 'not killing people' method of accomplishing Evil. See also Adarus, which might rise into Robin-Hood like beings.

Their ravening is a different kind of ravening than a Barbarian might do, though. Many demons seem to be innately skewed towards breaking things (which is not necessarily evil), and depending on which version of 3.X's creation myths you believe, one of the reasons Asmodeus fell in the first place was due to the whole "corrupted by fighting demons" thing.

Would such a primeval evil have redemption as part of its options? I'd say yes - but it'd be even harder.

[Moginheden]

looking for a good-aligned prison? try the Blessed Fields of Elysium:

from the DMG:

Entrapping. This is a trait unique to Elysium (although Hades
has a similar entrapping trait). A nonoutsider on Elysium experiences
increasing joy and satisfaction while there. Colors
become brighter and more vivid than on the Material Plane,
sounds more melodious and soft, and the nature of others
seems more pleasant and understanding. At the conclusion of
every week spent on Elysium, any nonoutsider must make a
Will save (DC 10 + the number of consecutive weeks on
Elysium). Failure indicates that the individual has fallen under
the control of the plane, cannot leave the plane of his or her
own volition, and has no desire to do so. Memories of any previous
life fade into nothingness, and it takes a wish or miracle spell
to return such characters to normal.

Now it does specifically exclude outsiders from the entrapping effect, but a similar good-aligned plane could easily re-word this effect to work on anyone. Then a devil/demon who goes there to try to corrupt the inhabitants might end up corrupted himself by the forces of good and accend.

[Sarco_Phage]

Elysium is a good-aligned afterlife realm. And devil who goes up there to try and snatch souls is probably violating the pact - and probably also so desperate for currency that he's screwed with his superiors anyway. He'll probably get his devil butt smited out of existence before something like Elysium can convert him.

[Lord_Gareth]

Their ravening is a different kind of ravening than a Barbarian might do, though. Many demons seem to be innately skewed towards breaking things (which is not necessarily evil), and depending on which version of 3.X's creation myths you believe, one of the reasons Asmodeus fell in the first place was due to the whole "corrupted by fighting demons" thing.

Would such a primeval evil have redemption as part of its options? I'd say yes - but it'd be even harder.

Trust me, the Champion of Stars does some serious ravening of her own. The only thing separating an angry eldarin from a demon is target discretion.

[Moginheden]

Elysium is a good-aligned afterlife realm. And devil who goes up there to try and snatch souls is probably violating the pact - and probably also so desperate for currency that he's screwed with his superiors anyway. He'll probably get his devil butt smited out of existence before something like Elysium can convert him.

That plane in particular won't work true, but I was just saying that's the type of thing a good-aligned prison would do. Rather than walls, make people not want to leave.

If you made a demi-plane with a similar trait, (or a full plane if you are making a whole cosmology) it could work for devils/demons acceding.

[Sarco_Phage]

Trust me, the Champion of Stars does some serious ravening of her own. The only thing separating an angry eldarin from a demon is target discretion.

I don't know too much about the Eladrin, to be honest. All I know is they're essentially angelic fae, which is bad news enough on its own.

On the other hand "target discretion", you must admit, makes a world of difference.

[Lord_Gareth]

I don't know too much about the Eladrin, to be honest. All I know is they're essentially angelic fae, which is bad news enough on its own.

Eldarin are champions of freedom. They uphold ideals of personal responsibility, individual ethics, freedom of choice, righteous fury, personal justice, freedom from oppression, valor and courage. They are the patrons of good-aligned barbarians, chaotic sorcerers, gods like Kord and just simple free souls alike. Many of them are polygamous and almost all are shape-shifters of one sort or another, turning into such diverse things as balls of light, whirlwinds, pillars of flame and nests of stars. Gentle and forgiving of good-aligned beings, they quickly quicken to wrath when confronted with evil and oppression and are often the first to lead the charge deep into the heart of evil's domain. Sadly, they're not normally the brightest bulbs in the box and are often immature or rash.

[Vemynal]

anyways I just wanna give another AWESOME EXAMPLE shout out to Vemynal for being so fully awesome.

lol can I sig this?

[mucco]

The Book of Exalted Cheese details how to redeem an evil being through sweet talking and Diplo checks against Will save... yeah. Though, it specifically says that [Evil] creatures can't be redeemed. Fiend redemption requires plot power (as it should be - every angel's fall has been an exceptional plot-related event).

[hamishspence]

Not every Fallen Angel falls all the way to fiend though.

In Elder Evils, the obyrith Sertrous's main minion Avamerin, is an evil-aligned planetar- but it retains the Good subtype and most of its abilities.

[Cruiser1]

Yup, as well as the people saying love is OMGETFBBQ GOOD. I might go more in depth later, but suffice it to say, love is something that is, if anything, pure neutral.Alignments such as "good" and "evil" and what composes them can be interpreted in many ways, however I would definitely say Love is not only good, but is the primary component of good! Note love sometimes means just desire, which is indeed more neutral, and usually self-centered as well. True Love is compassion, which means understanding another's situation and empathizing with the causes that brought them there, which motivates altruism and service. Love and hate are opposites of each other, where Love is accepting and unifying, and hate is rejecting and separating. A parent Loves their child, even if they misbehave and need disciplining. Good and Love don't have to be weak, and can still fight if necessary, although they usually don't relish it. (Some forces of good in D&D define their love to include appreciation of battling evil too! :smallwink:)

Demons (chaotic evil) are definitely selfish. Devils (lawful evil) work together, but are still inherently self-centered, and seek their own advancement and to overthrow their superiors. Only the celestials truly work together, and focus on the needs of others or the whole instead of separate selfish ambitions. Sometimes good seems dumb (because unlike evil they restrict their actions) but evil eventually turns on itself, which is why the devils or demons haven't been able to conquer the forces of good.

[Chilingsworth]

See also Adarus, which might rise into Robin-Hood like beings.

Sorry, but who/what is an Adarus?

[hamishspence]

Alignments such as "good" and "evil" and what composes them can be interpreted in many ways, however I would definitely say Love is not only good, but is the primary component of good! Note love sometimes means just desire, which is indeed more neutral, and usually self-centered as well. True Love is compassion, which means understanding another's situation and empathizing with the causes that brought them there, which motivates altruism and service. Love and hate are opposites of each other, where Love is accepting and unifying, and hate is rejecting and separating.

That said, while opposite, they can coexist in the same person- someone who might hate their enemies (for one reason or other) but love everyone else.

"Don't give in to hate. That leads to the Dark Side."

may be something those who seek to stay Good must remember.

[Kenneth]

lol can I sig this?

of course!

also WTF cruiser1 getting all super awesome as well!!

this thread is officially made of win!

[Drachasor]

The Book of Exalted Cheese details how to redeem an evil being through sweet talking and Diplo checks against Will save... yeah. Though, it specifically says that [Evil] creatures can't be redeemed. Fiend redemption requires plot power (as it should be - every angel's fall has been an exceptional plot-related event).

Or a Helm of Opposite Alignment. You know, whichever.

[TheGeckoKing]

I'd say it depends on the creature in question. Anything that was "made" from a mortal soul, like a soul being turned into a mane/lemure, could be redeemed. They had the capacity for good in mortality, and surely there's someone nice/deluded enough to try and see if it stuck. Stuff with more freaky or primordial origins like an Ancient Baatoran, an Obyrith, or a Loumara? I don't think anyone would touch that with the obligatory 10ft pole, and good reason too.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I'd say it depends on the creature in question. Anything that was "made" from a mortal soul, like a soul being turned into a mane/lemure, could be redeemed. They had the capacity for good in mortality, and surely there's someone nice/deluded enough to try and see if it stuck. Stuff with more freaky or primordial origins like an Ancient Baatoran, an Obyrith, or a Loumara? I don't think anyone would touch that with the obligatory 10ft pole, and good reason too.

This makes sense to me. Things like the obyriths existed before mortal sin; the tanar'ri have a link to mortals, depraved though they might be, which in my mind makes them slightly more likely candidates for redemption.

What of the planes themselves, though? The Great Wheel seems to depend on a sort of balance. It even auto-corrects things that might otherwise disrupt said balance (see the creation story of the Loumaras, for instance).

Does every fallen angel or redeemed fiend subtly disrupt the balance of power within the outer planes? I somehow doubt one lost demon among countless millions would make much of a difference, but still...

[TheRinni]

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a
That link contains a page that discusses a (presumably Lawful Good) Succubus Paladin. While not quite the same, I thought it'd be worth mentioning that creatures who are listed as "always evil," in the MM, are really 99.9% always evil. You can have a creature of that type who is outside of that alignment; it is just very, very rare. I believe this is either stated in the MM or DMG, towards the back of the book. Alas, I do not have my copies on hand, so I cannot list a specific page number.

Taking that into account, I can see how a demon can "fall upwards."

[nyarlathotep]

Alignments such as "good" and "evil" and what composes them can be interpreted in many ways, however I would definitely say Love is not only good, but is the primary component of good! Note love sometimes means just desire, which is indeed more neutral, and usually self-centered as well. True Love is compassion, which means understanding another's situation and empathizing with the causes that brought them there, which motivates altruism and service. Love and hate are opposites of each other, where Love is accepting and unifying, and hate is rejecting and separating. A parent Loves their child, even if they misbehave and need disciplining. Good and Love don't have to be weak, and can still fight if necessary, although they usually don't relish it. (Some forces of good in D&D define their love to include appreciation of battling evil too! :smallwink:)

Demons (chaotic evil) are definitely selfish. Devils (lawful evil) work together, but are still inherently self-centered, and seek their own advancement and to overthrow their superiors. Only the celestials truly work together, and focus on the needs of others or the whole instead of separate selfish ambitions. Sometimes good seems dumb (because unlike evil they restrict their actions) but evil eventually turns on itself, which is why the devils or demons haven't been able to conquer the forces of good.

I dare say part of this argument comes from English sadly having a very broad definition for love. Perhaps a better word would be compasion?

Even so good can hate and evil can love, and just as hate is what leads to most falls from grace I think love would help with most moves in the opposite direction in one way or another (not specifically romantic love, but deep kindness of any kind).

[Reaver225]

I would definitely say Love is not only good, but is the primary component of good! Note love sometimes means just desire, which is indeed more neutral, and usually self-centered as well. True Love is compassion, which means understanding another's situation and empathizing with the causes that brought them there, which motivates altruism and service.
"I would die for her. I HAVE died for her. I have rent my soul asunder to learn how to bring her back, and I have used the blood of an entire race to prepare for her to return to this plane. If it was necessary, I would drag each angel from the celestial planes down to the darkest pits of the inferno amidst the demon bodies I have already destroyed and render their souls as spell parts. She would hate me for this, of she knew. She would say I am a murderer, genocidal and mad, and vow to undo me entirely. If my heart was not already dust it would break to hear this."

"But none of this matters! Nothing does, except for one thing! That she returns! That SHE WILL BE BROUGHT BACK!!!"

Love? Check. Altruism? Very specific, but check. Service to another at personal cost? Check.

Good? Love ain't good. Not by a long shot. It might predispose people to good acts more often, but in the end it's but another motivation - neither good nor evil in its actions.

Now, the moral relativity of actions is something for an entirely different discussion.

[Kenneth]

almost had it there Reaver225.


but I would wager that what you put up is obsession Not love, and I shall use some of the owrds you did to make a point .

"She would hate me for this, of she knew. She would say I am a murderer, genocidal and mad, and vow to undo me entirely. If my heart was not already dust it would break to hear this."


If He felt actual Love and not misguided obsession he would no be doing those things that would make his ex love feel that way towards him. It is very very easy for one to turn love into obession and this is indeed a perfect example.

[Reaver225]

If He felt actual Love and not misguided obsession he would no be doing those things that would make his ex love feel that way towards him. It is very very easy for one to turn love into obession and this is indeed a perfect example.Sometimes, doing something for people that they would hate - for a good example donating your organs to someone you love even though they don't want you to (as doing so obviously is detrimental to yourself), not giving your child every little thing they want.

If there is a net gain for one you love, it's perfectly logical. What's the line between obsession and love, and why don't the above examples fall into it?

What's the line between stealing a loaf of bread to ensure your children don't suffer hunger, and sacrificing 3/4 of all life in the planes to drag your children out of a hell they were cursed into? Why is one declared as obsession and one as love?

[Kenneth]

if you do not understand the difference between love and obsession in the very example you gave then I will concede my point as I know that I will never be able to show you.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

This makes sense to me. Things like the obyriths existed before mortal sin; the tanar'ri have a link to mortals, depraved though they might be, which in my mind makes them slightly more likely candidates for redemption.

What of the planes themselves, though? The Great Wheel seems to depend on a sort of balance. It even auto-corrects things that might otherwise disrupt said balance (see the creation story of the Loumaras, for instance).

Does every fallen angel or redeemed fiend subtly disrupt the balance of power within the outer planes? I somehow doubt one lost demon among countless millions would make much of a difference, but still...
The jury's likely out on this. Not all cosmologies depend on this balance. I know in Pathfinder the fallen celestial issue isn't the origin of all fiends.

Demons were created when daemons (neutral evil fiends) experimented with the Abyss, and "taught" it how to create life from mortal sin. The demons drove the original Abyssal beings, the qlippoth, into the lowest reaches of the plane. Theoretically a demon could rise, though because all demons are birthed when a soul with a lot of a particular sin arrives in the Abyss, it'd take a lot of work. Qlippoth could never be redeemed. They basically loathe everything and constantly work towards a single goal: the eradication of mortal life, thus destroying the source of sin and putting an end to the constant birthing of demons. This would allow them to finally make an effort to reclaiming their home from the usurpers. Only the most deranged spellcasters dare to try and summon qlippoth, and even then, qlippoth don't normally answer since they hate mortals. If they do, there's only one reason: they expect to be allowed to sow as much destruction and chaos as possible.

Devils were created by Asmodeus to be his divine servants in the perfect order he wanted to create after murdering his brother god Ihys, creator of free will and the only being Asmodeus ever loved. There ARE devils that were fallen angels. The erinyes and their Whore Queens are the most obvious example, but devils don't necessarily rise because they're not necessarily fallen angels. To them, rising would mean defying the will of Asmodeus, and if a devil isn't already broken on the Prince of Darkness' will, then it at least knows that betraying Asmodeus would be incredibly dangerous, and if caught (which'd most likely happen) they'd be in for a whole lot of pain.

Daemons aren't likely to be redeemed either because they eat the souls of mortals and aren't likely to give that up any time soon, and most are the harbingers of one of the Four Horsemen. Where they appear, War, Famine, Pestilence or Death follow. Kind of hard to convince beings whose sole purpose is to spread misery among mortals to give that up too.

In summary, most Pathfinder fiends aren't likely to seek redemption due to the fact that most of them either aren't born from mortal souls or have other obligations. Devils who were fallen angels and demons are probably the best bet. The qlippoth and daemons have nothing to redeem, and their reasons for being are antithetical to peaceful coexistence with mortals, which is somewhat required for such redemption (being willing to not abuse and cause trouble among mortals being a true test of character).

[Sarco_Phage]

Hmm, so Pathfinder's Asmodeus is a god himself?