WBL for Monster NPCs?

[Drakevarg]

So, I asked this on the Simple Q&A thread, but it's starting to look like it's not going to get answered and I'd prefer to figure this out sooner rather than later:

When determining the NPC gear value for a monster with class levels, do you use their class level, CR, HD, or ECL? For example, I'm trying to figure out the gear value for a Bearded Devil with class levels. So for each of the options:

Class Level- Fighter 1, meaning 900gp worth of gear. Rather paltry for a CR 6 encounter.

CR- CR 6, meaning 5600gp. Seems the most logical of the choices to me, since it's the same as a Human Fighter 6.

HD- 7 HD, which might be a bit sharp at 7200gp.

ECL- ECL 13, which while a literal reading of the rules I can find on it seems the most accurate, handing out 35000gp worth of gear for every slain mook is patently ridiculous. Might be a case of RAWtarded, so I thought I'd ask anyway.

[Antonok]

I'd do it by CR like normal, maybe switch some things out for stuff that a PC would normally use like a magic sword or armor, possably even a couple potions.

[That_guy_there]

I'd do it by CR like normal, maybe switch some things out for stuff that a PC would normally use like a magic sword or armor, possably even a couple potions.

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This is how the DMs (including me) in my group do mooks and stooges of the BBBEG. Instead of the standard gear the bearded Devil has switch in gear appropriate to his class levels.

For higher ranking mooks (those that should be more of a threat) I tend to equip them with gear equal to NPCs of their Class Level + base CR.

[Moginheden]

The creature will have built in abilities to make it a specific CR even naked, (unless the monster description or stat block mentions specific gear.)

Most of the time I give my non-humanoid-type mooks nothing at all in gear, (except that given in the monster's description.)

If you give your mooks gear it messes with their CR. Your standard Bearded Devil encounter is a lot harder if that devil is carrying around a vorpral weapon or has +5 AC due to armour he's wearing.

Now having said that I do often give humanoid-type mooks gear worth looting... I just adjust the CR of the creature to account for it, (so your party of level 6 adventurers might find a CR 4 encounter, but it's gear makes it an even fight so for XP it's counted as CR 6.

A bearded devil I would count as non-humanoid since it's an outsider. Even though it's physically capable of wearing gear, outsiders tend not to.

[peacenlove]

By CR.
Note that some class levels are non-associated and may influence the final CR, and that an creature with class levels automatically gains the elite array for his ability scores.


The creature will have built in abilities to make it a specific CR even naked, (unless the monster description or stat block mentions specific gear.)

Depends on optimization level. Umd'ed scrolls may counter dangerous spells (scinnitilating scales vs shivering touch or touch of idiocy for example)


If you give your mooks gear it messes with their CR. Your standard Bearded Devil encounter is a lot harder if that devil is carrying around a vorpral weapon or has +5 AC due to armour he's wearing.

Unless I am missing something a Vorpal sword doesn't cost 5.600 gp, the standard treasure for the example barbazu fighter 1. If you decide to outfit him with significantly more, you should raise his CR by 1 or more.


A bearded devil I would count as non-humanoid since it's an outsider. Even though it's physically capable of wearing gear, outsiders tend not to.

The succesful ones survived millenia in a universe that hates them just because they are opposed by 8 other alignments by being versatile and resourceful. Items give that versatility and are a chance to keep your PC's on their toes.

[Urpriest]

It's odd. Having looked at the section for adding class levels to monsters, it really does look like they expected ECL to be used. CR of course makes the most sense, and I know of no support for doing it by HD. I've also run into some support (while writing my monster guide) that monsters keep both their standard treasure and their NPC gear, but this seems excessive and ambiguous. It's really quite poorly thought out.

[tyckspoon]

I've also run into some support (while writing my monster guide) that monsters keep both their standard treasure and their NPC gear, but this seems excessive and ambiguous.

This is how I'd do it, actually- standard treasure (so randomly rolled crap, a large portion of which is going to be redundant or of not much use to anybody) for its base CR, and then real gear for however many class levels it has aimed at properly equipping it for that role. So the mentioned Bearded Devil would own 1,600 GP worth of normal treasures, as determined by the treasure tables (note that not all of it is likely to be carried around to be looted after encountering it, and the PCs may never actually find some portion of this stuff.. which helps make up for the fact that it also has..) plus NPC wealth as per a 1st level Fighter, so it'll have decent armor, probably a Masterwork weapon, maybe a useful 1st-level potion or 3.

[peacenlove]

Level Adjustment and Effective Character Level
To determine the effective character level (ECL) of a monster character, add its level adjustment to its racial Hit Dice and character class levels. The monster is considered to have experience points equal to the minimum needed to be a character of its ECL.
If you choose to equip a monster with gear, use its ECL as its character level for purposes of determining how much equipment it can purchase. Generally, only monsters with an Advancement entry of “By character class” receive NPC gear; other creatures adding character levels should be treated as monsters of the appropriate CR and assigned treasure, not equipment.

By the SRD (thanks urpriest).

Its kinda confusing but since the barbazu doesn't normally advance by levels, he gets treasure as a CR 6 challenge (2000 gp).
If he had advancement with class levels he would get treasure as a 13 level NPC (6 HD + 6 LA + 1 Fighter), way higher than expected.
RAW but I would still houserule it IMO. It produces some ... weird results.

[Flickerdart]

CR makes sense - but then adding a class level to a CR20 and then giving it an Epic NPC's WBL for that one level is ridiculous, as that much money far outstrips the CR increase it would get.

Encounter rewards have no connection to the amount of money the enemy actually has. Too much money? He owns a house, he loaned some to the butcher's boy, he drank some potions and broke some magic arrows during the battle, he owns a stock of paintings by an artist that's no longer in vogue. Too little? The monster's scales are worth their weight in gold, the sheriff has put a princely bounty on the bandit's head.

[Thurbane]

By the SRD (thanks urpriest).
Thanks for quoting the relevant section, I knew I'd seen it somewhere.

As I pointed out in the Q&A thread, using ECL means in some cases (creatures with low CR but high LA, and/or non-associated class levels) you end up with a relatively low CR opponent with quite quite high NPC WBL.

The first time I really noticed this was when I was creating some vampire NPCs in an EtCR game I was running. When using ECL and NPC WBL for vampires, you'll end up with an enemy toting NPC gear 6 levels above his CR. Imagine, for example, a Vampire Medusa Sorcerer 6. Her CR would be 12 (7+2 for vamp, +3 for non-associated class levels) while her ECL would be 20 (6 racial HD + 6 class levels +8 LA). 220,000gp!

...speaking for myself, I reserve NPC wealth by level for "special" NPC encounters, not just every Tom, Rick and Harry that happens to have class levels.

[Coidzor]

The real problem is determining the adjusted CR after factoring the gear back into the monstrosity.

[Flickerdart]

...speaking for myself, I reserve NPC wealth by level for "special" NPC encounters, not just every Tom, Rick and Harry that happens to have class levels.
Well, they kind of need the equipment to be relevant threats. Any non-caster with mundane equipment is basically never a threat above level 6 or so, excluding people like Totemists and Binders that don't care too much. Unless "special" means "not a complete joke".

[Thurbane]

I'm mainly referring to monsters with some class levels, not creatures like Drow or Hobgoblins, who only get class levels. For those encounters, I generally use NPC WBL.

But something like a Medusa can still be a significant threat even with only monster treasure...

[Runestar]

I noticed they seem to get somewhere in between the treasure typical for a monster of that EL, and an npc of that cr. I guess at this juncture, you need to play it by ear. High-HD monsters tend to come with significant physical stat bonuses, which replicate the benefits of gear rather well, so they may not need as much gear. Or rather, too much gear may further bump their cr to higher than the guidelines suggest.

For instance, 1 lv of fighter lets a monster wear heavy armour (+8AC) and wield weapons (granting iterative attacks), which can be a pretty huge boost for monsters which do not normally wear them.

For example, consider an elder elemental. Give it a few lvs in a fighter-class such as warblade. Suddenly, it can wield weapons (and make 4 attacks, potentially doubling its damage output (4 from say longsword, extra 4 from slam+improved rapidstrike). :smallcool:

[Saph]

Remember that at least 75% of the time, a monster NPC's eventual destiny in life is to get killed and looted by the PCs.

So the best way to decide a monster's wealth by level, IMO, is to ask "how much treasure do I want to give the party?"

With that in mind, I usually base it off CR, then scale it based on the party's power level. If I want to make the fight easier, I have the monster keep its wealth in gold, jewellery, or other items with high value but low combat effectiveness. For an average-difficulty fight, I have the monster use permanent magic items. For a high-difficulty fight, I'll have the monster spend a certain fraction on its wealth on consumables (potions, scrolls, etc) and have it buff pre-combat. (A simple 50 gp potion of mage armour can make a stock monster a lot more dangerous.)