0d6?

[Loki Eremes]

Hi there Playgrounders.
wow... at least 6 months from my last post in the forum.

how are you doing? well, im fine but with a doubt. A BIG hipotetical doubt.


-Lets suppose im a lvl 5 rogue with 3d6 SNEAK ATTACK dice.
-Now add to that "Penetrating Strike" variant feature, which reduces your SA dice by half (rounded down i think)
-And finally take the marvellous "Craven" feat from Chapion of Horror.

with this when attacking a normaly immune creature to SA you deal WHILE FLANKING half your SA dice. This, then, not applies to the fixed damage done by Craven (5 in this situation)


I have no doubts with it. BUT...

What happens if something reduces your SA dice to 0d6 ???
Does the SA feature still works?


Mandatory Information:
Normal Logical Guy: how can you permanently reduce to 0d6 your SA feature without some crazy House Rule?
Loki: Simple, i dont.

We are houseruling (if that word exists) a Pact where you sacrifice Class features or part of them (as a dragonpact from Dragon Magic, but for Martial focused PCs) to obtain feats and/or spell-like abilities.
In my case i asked to sacrifice all of my SA dice with another roguish stuff in exchange for a feat i'll normally cant obtain due to the prerrequisites.

So well, there ya go. a +0d6 Sneak Attack.

Just try not to think about the home-made rule and tell me.
Is it possible to continue having a class feature like Sneak Attack without damage dice?

[Tebryn]

Yes. You just do no damage.

[Redshirt Army]

I'm not sure what you're asking. You'll still qualify for the Craven damage, if that's what you meant. 0+Character Level = Character Level

[Drachasor]

If your sneak attack produces some non-damage special effect though, that would still work even if you have no dice, imho. You are still sneak attacking.

Redshirt is right about the Craven damage.

[Loki Eremes]

Is it possible to continue having a class feature like Sneak Attack without damage dice?


I'm not sure what you're asking. You'll still qualify for the Craven damage, if that's what you meant. 0+Character Level = Character Level


let me put it this way:
Is a 0d6 Sneak Attack still a Sneak Attack? Continues to count as a class feature?



Yes. You just do no damage.

I think the same, but cant find any RAW's way to demonstrate it.

[Drachasor]

let me put it this way:
Is a 0d6 Sneak Attack still a Sneak Attack? Continues to count as a class feature?

I would say "yes."

Honestly, it is more like 0d6+5 in your case.

[0nimaru]

I would also say yes. I don't believe you'll find any RAW answer, as you are using a houserule to get your SA down to 0d6. Off memory, all of the Ambush feats from Complete Scoundrel which let you trade SA for effects require you to have one more D6 than the effect trades out. It seemed they may have wished to avoid the question of "is 0d6 still a SA?"

A dissenting (player restricting) view of it is that your SA doing 0d6 is like an attack completely negated by DR. Some effects I can't name off the top of my head mention failing if your attack is completely negated by DR, and in this case.. your craven wouldn't activate. I wouldn't personally go with this, but it may be the views of some.

[That_guy_there]

if your sneak attack damage is limited to 0D6 its still a sneak attack (and thus craven aplies), however if it never rises above 0d6 (due to the houserule) it limits your effectiveness and choices for Feats. Things like Penetrating Strike, and the feats that lower your sneak attack damage dice in exchange for an added effect are no longer viable for you (feats found in Complete Scoundrel).

I don't understand the purpose of having the class feature if it effectively does almost nothing for you. Aside from adding a damage bonus while flanking.

[Moginheden]

Personally I'd say to get the feat you'd have to give up the class feature of sneak attacking period, you don't reduce it to 0d6. But that's changing the houserule.

As you stated the houserule, you still do sneak attacks, they just don't do any damage.

[Kantolin]

In the races of the wild, there's a halfling rogue substitution level that reduces your melee sneak attack by 1d6. It says:


However, her melee sneak attack damage is reduced by 1d6 (0 points of damage at first level, an extra 1d6 points at 3rd level)

That implies that the 0 damage at first level is still, in fact, a melee sneak attack that does 0 damage, so craven would apply, as would anything else that occurs on a successful sneak attack.

[candycorn]

In the races of the wild, there's a halfling rogue substitution level that reduces your melee sneak attack by 1d6. It says:



That implies that the 0 damage at first level is still, in fact, a melee sneak attack that does 0 damage, so craven would apply, as would anything else that occurs on a successful sneak attack.

Correct. Sneak attack DAMAGE reduction doesn't change the fact that something is a sneak attack. Look at it this way.

I cast Melf's Acid Arrow, and shoot at someone with Acid resistance 10. The damage is reduced to zero. It is still, however, an Acid attack. A change to an attack's damage does not change the attack's descriptors.

[Godskook]

You sacrificed all your sneak attack dice, so I'd say you don't actually have the class feature anymore, and thus you don't even qualify for Craven anymore.

This is also distinctly different from exchanging sneak attack for other benefits ala the Ambush feats, where you actually have sneak attack dice as a class feature, but you're altering the effect they produce during your attack.

The inclusion of Penetrating Strike is misleading and immaterial, imho, as it doesn't deal with any 'new' case. There's still only two: Where you have sneak attack dice and where you don't.

[HunterOfJello]

My first reaction was to say 'yes', the attack is still a sneak attack even if the damage has been reduce from Xd6 to 0d6.

However, I then looked up the sneak attack damage reducers from a few books and noticed the Ambush Feats section in Complete Scoundrel. Different ambush feats each decrease sneak attack and can be stacked. Yet when used either alone or stacked, they are never allowed to reduce the sneak attack damage to below 1d6. (Two feats from Complete Warrior were also retconned to be counted as Ambush Feats from then on also.)

I think it was the intention of the developers of Complete Scoundrel that a sneak attack (or other type of precision damage) never be reduced below 1d6. However, they are never explicit about sneak attacks in general, only about the new Ambush Feats introduced in the books.

I don't see any problem with doing 0d6+craven as a sneak attack. Craven is an awesome feat and puts sneak attack back on par with how effective sneak attacks really should be.

[candycorn]

You sacrificed all your sneak attack dice, so I'd say you don't actually have the class feature anymore, and thus you don't even qualify for Craven anymore.

This is also distinctly different from exchanging sneak attack for other benefits ala the Ambush feats, where you actually have sneak attack dice as a class feature, but you're altering the effect they produce during your attack.

The inclusion of Penetrating Strike is misleading and immaterial, imho, as it doesn't deal with any 'new' case. There's still only two: Where you have sneak attack dice and where you don't.

It has been shown to be possible to have a Sneak Attack value of "0", which is different than not having sneak attack. Halfling substitution can get it permanently, and many ambush feats can do it temporarily.

Having the ability is not dependent on being able to roll extra dice of damage. If a class feature gives you an ability, you have that ability. If something else removes the ability, you don't. However, if something else merely removes the EFFECTS of the ability, you still have the ability... It just doesn't DO anything.

In this case, the ability's effects are being removed. The ability, however, is not. Since the ability has been granted by a class feature, and nothing has removed it, the character still has the sneak attack ability. Anything that requires "Sneak attack class feature" will still work. Anything that requires "Sneak attack +1d6" will not, as you don't have +1d6.

[Godskook]

It has been shown to be possible to have a Sneak Attack value of "0", which is different than not having sneak attack. Halfling substitution can get it permanently, and many ambush feats can do it temporarily.

Wrong on both counts, actually.

1.The halfling racial substitution differentiates ranged from melee, and cannot reduce his ranged sneak attack to that value, which is all that matters for feat qualification since the wording makes it equivalent to regular sneak attack. Thus, a halfling with this substitution would always qualify for Craven, and thus be able to reap the benefits of it. If it works at melee range at level 1 is an interesting question, but not one my previous post discussed.

2.Ambush feats don't allow that and never have.


In this case, the ability's effects are being removed. The ability, however, is not.

See, I disagree, but after consideration, this is a distinction that only the DM who offered the deal would actually know about, since the deal is homebrew in nature.

[mootoall]

Did you sacrifice the class feature, or just all of the dice? It matters.

[Loki Eremes]

Did you sacrifice the class feature, or just all of the dice? It matters.

Just the dice,
If i've sacrificed the class feature the answer would be simple :smalltongue:

[Vangor]

Because the table entry says "Sneak attack +1d6", I would say the dice are necessary to give access to the class feature. You do not gain "Sneak attack" first level and "+1d6" every other level after, only dice as the class feature. To me, the difference between gaining the dice as the class feature and gaining a bonus to the class feature are significantly different in a similar way to leveling a base caster compared to +1 level of spellcasting.

However, I would personally rule the dice are not necessary to perform a sneak attack because I doubt the intent was to tie the class feature to "Sneak attack +2d6" as opposed to "Sneak attack which has +2d6".

[pilvento]

Can i ask who got the crazy idea of that houserule?

I bet ur DM cant swallow sadness any more so it will be okay

[mootoall]

Just the dice,
If i've sacrificed the class feature the answer would be simple :smalltongue:

Well, the Sneak Attack description just says "If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage."

Says to me you keep that from Craven, even sans the dice.