CoDzilla

[Fitzclowningham]

Would reducing them to the wis/sorc BAB put them back into balance, or would they still be too powerful?

[AMFV]

Divine Might makes BAB pretty much irrelevant.

[Fitzclowningham]

I thought that was only vs. undead:

SRD:Divine Might
This material is published under the OGL
Divine Might [Divine]
Prerequisites

Str 13, turn or rebuke undead ability, Power Attack.
Benefit

As a free action, spend one of your turn or rebuke undead attempts to add your Charisma bonus to your weapon damage for 1 full round.


Yay, but give me BAB.

[Urpriest]

He means Divine Power.

[AMFV]

He means Divine Power.

Yep, my brain isn't working so well at the minute. It is entirely too late to be thinking.

[Morbis Meh]

Yeah, reducing BAB does absolutely nothing since they persist Divine power granting them full BAB and +6 to Str so once they actually get the spell at level 7 they are set anyways.

[Zaq]

The Cloistered Cleric has 1/2 BAB (like the Wizard) and is often considered to be STRONGER than the normal Cleric. (Yes, they get goodies in return, but the point is that the loss of BAB really doesn't hurt much.)

[Fitzclowningham]

Thanks!

So, nerf that too: bring it down to the regular cl/dr. Would that balance out the classes? Even then, I'm not sure.

[Drachasor]

It's the spellcasting that is overpowered more than anything. For druids wildshape is icing on the cake, for Clerics combat ability is even less important.

My only problem with flat-out getting rid of wild shape is that it is awesome flavor. I'd rather nerf it to a reasonable level and nerf spellcasting to a reasonable level.

[Talya]

Wildshape itself isn't overpowered. Proof? Wildshape Ranger/MoMF is a solid upper tier 3, the sweet spot for classes everywhere to aspire to. Wildshaping may make you the best melee type in the game, but it's an ability still based on melee, and therefore limited. The problem is druids have three class features that are each enough to base an entire class on.

Spellcasting (Tier 1 - by itself)
Wildshape (Tier 3 - by itself)
Animal Companion (Tier 5 - by itself.)

I'm of the opinion druid should have gotten bardic style spellcasting (but with nature-themed spells) which would have dropped it down to very high tier 3 range.

[Big Fau]

Wildshape itself isn't overpowered. Proof? Wildshape Ranger/MoMF is a solid upper tier 3, the sweet spot for classes everywhere to aspire to. Wildshaping may make you the best melee type in the game, but it's an ability still based on melee, and therefore limited. The problem is druids have three class features that are each enough to base an entire class on.

9th level Spellcasting with next to no spells known restrictions (Tier 1 - by itself)
Wildshape (Tier 3 - by itself)
Animal Companion (Tier 5 - by itself.)

I'm of the opinion druid should have gotten bardic style spellcasting (but with nature-themed spells) which would have dropped it down to very high tier 3 range.

Fixed. Spellcasting can be less than Tier 1, but the Big Fau (heh, couldn't resist) all have prepared spellcasting from what may as well be unlimited as-written. Even with the spellbook limitations on a Wizard/Archivist, you still have some serious power there.

[Midnight_v]

Divine Might makes BAB pretty much irrelevant.

I just wanted to pop in and say.... Bab makes bab irrelavant.

You kinda have to keep in mind that bab is what melee's get instead of spellcasting increases.


Thanks!

So, nerf that too: bring it down to the regular cl/dr. Would that balance out the classes? Even then, I'm not sure.

Also, no... even if you did that there are more spells than any other thing in D&D. There are more spell printed than there are monsters printed.

Even if you nerf everything until you reach the final destination of: Buff spells are not allowed on self.

God is still out there, controling the battlefield with his conjurations, and making reality cry and call him "daddy".
Further it's one less way someone can reach the archtype they want to play.

No. The proper way to "balance the classes" is to find a new monk, thats as strong as a "non-broken" melee cleric build, and start picking replacement classes from that point.
The issue is there are monsters out there who are CoDzilla strong too.
Super-strong infact, and they cast spells, so our heroes need somthing too, I think.

[Talya]

Fixed. Spellcasting can be less than Tier 1, but the Big Fau (heh, couldn't resist) all have prepared spellcasting from what may as well be unlimited as-written. Even with the spellbook limitations on a Wizard/Archivist, you still have some serious power there.

I'm specifically talking about druid spellcasting being tier 1 by itself, much like wildshape (tier 3) and animal companion (tier 5).

[Greyfeld]

I'm specifically talking about druid spellcasting being tier 1 by itself, much like wildshape (tier 3) and animal companion (tier 5).

I don't know that it would change much, but I always felt that the Druid and Ranger Animal Companion abilities should be flipped. That the Ranger should have the full progression pet, and the Druid's should be a nerfed version of the Ranger's.

[Talya]

I don't know that it would change much, but I always felt that the Druid and Ranger Animal Companion abilities should be flipped. That the Ranger should have the full progression pet, and the Druid's should be a nerfed version of the Ranger's.

I generally agree, except that the nerfed version of the AC shouldn't exist. Wild Cohort should be the weaker version. Half-level progression isn't useful at all.

[Greyfeld]

I generally agree, except that the nerfed version of the AC shouldn't exist. Wild Cohort should be the weaker version. Half-level progression isn't useful at all.

Yeah, half progression is pretty crap, outside of having a flying companion that can scout for you. Well, and the occasional riding companion (my last Ranger I played took a level of Beastmaster at level 6 so I could have an early animal companion mount). They're too easy to squish in combat, making them a bad choice as flankers, and they don't have the same ability to cast spells for you as a wizard's familiar does (though the ranger spell list doesn't lend itself much to this style of play anyway).

[Rogue Shadows]

You should run my cleric fix instead of the standard PHB one. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=211115).

That should at least plunge them down to mid-to-low Tier 2. At least Clerics, anyway. Druids I'm working up something else.

A big step towards fixing spellcasting in general, though, is splitting spellcasting power amongst two abilities. Every non-spellcaster is MAD. The spellcasters should be at least a little tee'd off.