So my lvl 3 players decided to raid a Mind Flayer cult....[3.5] [Archive]

Godskook

2011-08-20, 12:32 AM

So yeah, I was taken quite by surprise last session cause my players(or rather, the party leader) decided, instead of doing any of the expected things, that they would satiate a Troll(Campaign-established henchman to the Mind Flayers; Also self-admitted) by giving up an Ex-PC to him, and then convince him to give up the location of a Mind Flayer camp. The party then goes off to 'rescue' their friend from the Flayers. At the mouth of the cave, the party makes a listen check to hear something right on top of them saying 'they're here', and instead of running like hell, they proceed towards the entrance as if to siege the place. As they do, 20 trolls spring up around them and begin to block off their retreat from the cave(the circle was not yet closed), and in a panic, the party now runs dead on into the cave, where they are greated by a Flayer who dominates the party leader and begins to inform them of their new fate.

I left things very open-ended, but I'm at an entire loss for how to proceed from here without writing it off as a TPK.

Zaq

2011-08-20, 12:38 AM

If they don't have a way to run like hell (and it sounds like that ship has sailed), pretty much the only way to proceed from here on out is to have them try to escape from slavery. This will be very hard, what with the whole mental thralldom thing, the resonance crystals replacing their every emotion with helplessness and despair (read Lords of Madness, if you haven't . . . mind flayer lairs are goddamn NASTY), the trolls guarding them, and all those inconvenient little details.

Depending on your group, you might run a one-shot where a bunch of bigger and stronger adventurers clear out the illithids, freeing the main party in the process. Some players would find that to be fun, and some players would find it to be kind of cheap and unsatisfying. Obviously, you know your group better than I do.

Overall, though? Yeah, charging headfirst into an illithid encampment does kind of lead to TPKs, and it's kind of hard to feel too sympathetic.

Silva Stormrage

2011-08-20, 12:41 AM

Ya I can't see how they get out of this. Mind flayers are particularly protective with their thralls.

You COULD have the ithilid camp raided by drow or some other threat during which the pc's can escape. But ya right now if they don't spontaneously learn to teleport they are screwed.

Talbot

2011-08-20, 12:42 AM

Fiat. Fiat like Hell. Turns out the Mindflayers pissed off some Drow, who chose exactly that moment to attack.

OR

Turns out the Mindflayer dominating the party has an ulterior motive of his own (being one of those rare individualistic Mindflayers) and wants to use the party as part of some elaborate scheme against the OTHER Mindflayers.

OR

They get imprisoned, enslaved, but NOT mind controlled as they're not really worth the effort. Then they can figure out how to escape.

OR

TPK. Sometimes they deserve it. Honest.

Alaris

2011-08-20, 12:45 AM

Well, depends. Is this a high-power game? Are there a lot of level 3 adventurers in the world? Or are adventurers more rare.

If they are more rare, the Mindflayer could find a use for them, other than just killing them. While what they did was incredibly stupid, you don't need to just TPK them.

Is the party predominantly good? I'm assuming yes, because they were trying to stop the Mindflayer. Esentially, you can make them free-willed, but only to a certain point. So while they are forced to go on missions for the mindflayer for a time, they can choose how to do them, they just DO have to do them.

All the while, they CAN try to figure out a way to get free from his control, while gaining levels, becoming more powerful, and eventually have a real confrontation with the Mindflayer.

Godskook

2011-08-20, 01:21 AM

Some campaign setting facts:

1.The world is generally a bit more powerful than 'standard', with level 3-4 PC classes being almost expected of anyone noteworthy. Moreover, there's an entire city where the standard was set quite a bit higher cause it was founded by a large group of heroes, anti-heroes and 'lesser' villains(As in, "some of my best evil was done in this world, I don't want to watch it get destroyed") who all banded together to take down the Tarrasque. The originals all have extended(to immortality probably) lifespans, and many of their descendants are quite powerful.

2.There's quite a few factions already noted during gameplay that are within the right power bracket to be able to threaten the Flayers, or at least pull off a hit-n-run on one of their bases without suffering a similar TPK. To list, there's
-the Dragons(they're busy power leveling via the Xorvintaal so that they can actually defend themselves if/when the Tarrasque is released from its cage),
-the Kintarrans(The aforementioned city-state of high-powered NPCs),
-the Harpers(have 007-style agents of up to ~3rd level spells and about 8th or 9th level),
-clones(simulacrums, technically) of a time-traveling ex-PC(the possibilities are endless here, as the ex-PC is the only currently known character in the setting to have achieved 8th level spells or higher, and his clones 'might' have such access in scroll or wand form),
-A meglomaniacal gnollish necromancer cleric(with 4th level spells) who wants the party dead, but is quite capable of fielding a large enough undead horde to raid a Flayer's base of operations.

All of the above are listed for completeness sake. All have other priorities and none are aware of the party's current predicament. The party is also on very poor relations with all but the Kintarrans(the only one they don't get along with is the one that would actually be of most help, and he'd actually help if he knew) and the clones, of whom 99.99% are completely oblivious as to what century it currently is.

3.The Mind Flayers have not yet attempted serious mental control on the party, and I'm not sure what they'd want to do with them. I'll read some LoM. At present, the party is in a pit with some ~300 other slaves. Similar pits honeycomb this rather large open cave area.

4.The party practically needs 3 weapons that they had on them when they were captured. These weapons are keys made by the time-traveler and double as keys to a dungeon crawl the party really should be investigating.

5.It has been prophesied that at least one member of the party will live long enough to see someone cast a 9th level spell again.

Sarco_Phage

2011-08-20, 01:23 AM

Godskook

2011-08-20, 01:26 AM

Have the Flayer put them under an old-fashioned geas. You know, arm-twisting. After all, a few more minions capable of intelligent thought can't hurt... although you'd be hard pressed to explain why a Flayer would prefer to put its trust in independent minds rather than its own potent brain.

Problem with this is that Void Mind has already been established as a common practice for their minions, especially their non-Troll minions.

Talbot

2011-08-20, 02:38 AM

Suggested Solution: One of the other prisoners is a Harper, so Harpers come to save him. Saving the PCs is incidental. Heck, they don't even need to save them; they just cause enough problems for the Flayers that the PCs can make their own escape.

LaughingRogue

2011-08-20, 03:36 AM

I'm going to second the "mind flayers pissed off a drow city" and now they chose to attack

I would have the group be found by some not too friendly drow and have to somehow come up with a reason for why they are of more use to the drow alive than dead --- Possibly they will align and help with the invasion?

If the party refuses to align themselves with the Evil drow in the name of self preservation then TPK them on the spot

If they decide to align themselves with the drow -- have some of the mindflayers escape the invasion (the drow win) and have their be real consequences to their complete stupidity

The mindflayers know that you are in league with the drow that tried to wipe them out and that you escaped captivity --- they actively hunt the party when they get to higher levels that it would actually be a fight/they could escape --- they come in at inconvenient times for the PCs throughout the game etc.

darksolitaire

2011-08-20, 04:15 AM

So my lvl 3 players decided to raid a Mind Flayer cult....

And this, my friends, is why not all metagaming is bad.

Suggested Solution: One of the other prisoners is a Harper, so Harpers come to save him. Saving the PCs is incidental. Heck, they don't even need to save them; they just cause enough problems for the Flayers that the PCs can make their own escape.

^That would be the best solution if you just want to get the situation back to normal. Give the PCs circumstances in which they can escape, rather then busting them free, so they feel like they have accomplished something. If they decide not to escape, but stay and try to cause trouble for the cult, leave monster manual in some visible location, page conveniently open in mind flayer section.:smallbiggrin:

Skaven

2011-08-20, 04:37 AM

Turns out the Mindflayer dominating the party has an ulterior motive of his own (being one of those rare individualistic Mindflayers) and wants to use the party as part of some elaborate scheme against the OTHER Mindflayers.

I love this one. Play the EVIL part of the Lawful evil. Treachery and a pursuit of power! I love that stuff and it can make for some really interesting stories.

HunterOfJello

2011-08-20, 05:17 AM

Make sure the PCs face some serious consequences if they aren't flat out going to die because of their bad decisions. Whether it's the loss of items, some of the party dies, ability changes from being dominated so long that they're all forced into the next age category, or strange magical experimentation penalties (like having monster parts grafted on to them and taking penalties to skill checks, hp, or ability scores because of it).

I think it could be a good opportunity to kill the entire party, but you screwed up that option when you had 20 trolls show up out of nowhere, preventing their exit. If at the time you looked up the Troll entry in the Monster Manual and saw that Trolls have the organization entry of "Solitary or gang(2-4)" then set up 4 Trolls there then that would be justifiable. However, you screwed the pooch by arbitrarily putting 20 trolls there and forcing them to move in one direction.

It could be a good idea to not force a level 3 party into an illithid cult if you don't the entire party to die by having their brains eaten.

Godskook

2011-08-20, 05:29 AM

I think it could be a good opportunity to kill the entire party, but you screwed up that option when you had 20 trolls show up out of nowhere, preventing their exit. If at the time you looked up the Troll entry in the Monster Manual and saw that Trolls have the organization entry of "Solitary or gang(2-4)" then set up 4 Trolls there then that would be justifiable. However, you screwed the pooch by arbitrarily putting 20 trolls there and forcing them to move in one direction.

It could be a good idea to not force a level 3 party into an illithid cult if you don't the entire party to die by having their brains eaten.

1.I didn't 'screw the pooch', or do anything 'arbitrarily'. Trolls are *NOT* as-flavored in the monster manual, and are well established in my campaign setting to exist in large groups as minions to the mind flayers.

2.I didn't 'force' the party to do anything. I didn't even know something like this was going to happen. I had 4 trolls tracking the same quarry the PCs were tracking, and assumed the PCs would take their normal route, and kill the trolls(they were capable of either killing or outrunning the trolls and hand their option at that time). From there, the PCs chose to give the ex-PC to the trolls, then the PCs chose to assault a Mind Flayer base that knew they were coming. Then, when it became clear that the enemy both knew they were there and had superior numbers, the PCs chose to try running into the cave rather than fighting their way out(which, due to the wide circle the Trolls were making, combined with the many AoE spells the party had, was quite possible). My plan was for the PCs to run from 4 trolls after finding their old friend and return to other plot already in progress.

Fitz10019

2011-08-20, 06:05 AM

Old_Nemrod

2011-08-20, 06:07 AM

I might have misread, but your party has some sort of relationship with a time traveler? Why not pull a Bill and Ted. They find all the items they need plus some powerful scrolls to help them break out along with a note from their future selves. Then all they have to do later is travel back and leave the items for their past selves to use.

This lets you keep the party alive, give them new(temporary) toys to play with, and the note allows you to drop more hints so that the party can get back on track.

rgd20

2011-08-20, 06:13 AM

Have the Flayer put them under an old-fashioned geas. You know, arm-twisting. After all, a few more minions capable of intelligent thought can't hurt... although you'd be hard pressed to explain why a Flayer would prefer to put its trust in independent minds rather than its own potent brain.

This sounds like what I'd do. As to the reason, maybe it needs them to infiltrate a place/ organization where domination would be detected, but the Flayer has perfected his own kind of domination that wont be detected, but unfortunately leaves a bit of free will floating around.

Yahzi

2011-08-20, 06:16 AM

Honestly, TPK is the only viable alternative here. Your players attacked a Mind Flayer camp at level 3? They will never respect you or your world unless they all die.

Time to start new characters!

Luckmann

2011-08-20, 06:40 AM

Make them Thralls. Make an elaborate story of how they labour for years under their Illithid masters. Strip them of relevant scores. Punish them.

Then have the whole place raided by Gith or whatever is appropriate. They are freed in the process, onward to new adventures. Planar piracy or whatever.

Basically, whatever plot you had, just throw it out and start anew. And make the players feel your pain.

Godskook

2011-08-22, 02:05 PM

Bump, if anyone has any other suggestions, thoughts or questions that'd help me prepare for session this week.

Zerter

2011-08-22, 02:24 PM

Kill them, anything else is a deus ex machina. You could also put them under slavery and build a number of sessions on them enduring it before they get chances to escape (unless someone comes up with something brilliant). I've done a campaign once with the players starting in slavery, it was good!

I've had a similiar situation as DM with someone that was trapped by a vampire and I wanted to keep him alive desperatly where he should have died right away. He eventually wrote four pages on this site calling me the worst DM in the world.

charcoalninja

2011-08-22, 02:27 PM

Do the whole escape from slavery deal. Have the mind flayers attacked by Githyanki. The players have an honest to goodness way out, the illithid are attacked by a credible threat, and you get to have the whole complex nuked by dragonfire. Everybody wins!

EDIT: Swordsaged!

Seriously use the Gith, they're awesome.

Piggy Knowles

2011-08-22, 02:55 PM

Play the combat through, mercilessly but with the mind flayers clearly intending to enslave, not kill, the party. Then go ahead and do it, resonance crystals and all. Make sure that the party is suitably aware of how friggin' deadly mind flayers are.

Have the mind flayers strip the party of items, and sell the party as slaves to another third party. Evil human slavers, maybe. Or heck, maybe to the necromancer. If he wants the party dead, then he might be willing to pay a decent amount for them. It will probably be much easier to escape from an insane gnollish necromancer than it will from a mind flayer cult, considering how insanely paranoid and security-conscious mind flayers are.

Jayh

2011-08-22, 04:03 PM

Doug Lampert

2011-08-22, 04:54 PM

Honestly, TPK is the only viable alternative here. Your players attacked a Mind Flayer camp at level 3? They will never respect you or your world unless they all die.

Time to start new characters!

Ditto. Your next session starts with "make new characters, and this time try to create characters who could plausibly have lived past age 5."

But in accordance with prophesy one of the characters survives long enough as a wretched thrall to be used as a sacrifice to power some hideous 9th level ritual magic.

You should salvage campaigns when possible, but if you make it OBVIOUS that nothing the PCs do will result in PC death then they'll continue to do **** like charge TOWARD the mindflayer cave when the circle of trolls is closing. If you want pure kick in the door gaming that may work, but that goes poorly with a world where their are people clearly more powerful than the PCs. Even the DMG recommends that about 5% of encounters should have the "solution" of "run away" or "negotiate and beg".

DougL

Talbot

2011-08-22, 05:18 PM

There also exists the middle ground of killing a couple of 'em to teach 'em a lesson, but not the whole group. Two die, the others need to be rescued by those players' new PCs.

Greenish

2011-08-22, 05:27 PM

I'll vote for "kill 'em all", too. They basically begged for it.

Amphetryon

2011-08-22, 05:29 PM

Kill them, anything else is a deus ex machina.
It could reasonably be argued that killing them is also deus ex machina, since their escape route was blocked by twenty CR 5 monsters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm). The party's exact capabilities are not explicitly laid out but, for most level 3 parties, trying to get through that gauntlet is an extremely tall order.

Fri

2011-08-22, 05:31 PM

Turns out the Mindflayer dominating the party has an ulterior motive of his own (being one of those rare individualistic Mindflayers) and wants to use the party as part of some elaborate scheme against the OTHER Mindflayers.

If you feel this isn't the group for a tpk, my vote is on this one too.

Doug Lampert

2011-08-22, 07:24 PM

It could reasonably be argued that killing them is also deus ex machina, since their escape route was blocked by twenty CR 5 monsters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm). The party's exact capabilities are not explicitly laid out but, for most level 3 parties, trying to get through that gauntlet is an extremely tall order.

No. From the FIRST message in the thread:

At the mouth of the cave, the party makes a listen check to hear something right on top of them saying 'they're here', and instead of running like hell, they proceed towards the entrance as if to siege the place. As they do, 20 trolls spring up around them and begin to block off their retreat from the cave(the circle was not yet closed),

From a later post:

Then, when it became clear that the enemy both knew they were there and had superior numbers, the PCs chose to try running into the cave rather than fighting their way out(which, due to the wide circle the Trolls were making, combined with the many AoE spells the party had, was quite possible).

They explicitly had time to retreat PRIOR to the trolls finishing closing them off and CHOSE to charge forward toward another known enemy so they could get hit from behind while fighting the half of the ambush ahead of them.

This is all on the party. And it all makes perfect sense if you assume that this party is CONVINCED that their GM will never TPK them, because in that case there's no downside to attacking gods straight up. If you lose the Drow will coincidently attack and incomprehensibly rescue the dangerous thralls.

Bah. The only story we have is the DMs story, and he's convinced it was suicide and that they jumped and were not pushed. He's listed half a dozen distinct spots where they could have done something else other than attack mind-flayers straight up. At this point if you let them live you're just reinforcing their bad habits.

Rocks fall. Everyone dies, start over at level 1 in a town falling to mind-flayer infiltration and assualt or something.

DougL

Amphetryon

2011-08-22, 07:37 PM

Doug Lampert

2011-08-22, 07:48 PM

Did they explicitly have cause to retreat? They heard "they're here" but they didn't know they heard 20 Trolls saying that unless there were actually 20 distinct voices saying it. Even in a setting like his where 20 Trolls aren't out of the ordinary, they hadn't seen 20 Trolls until they all jumped out. That's not on the party, but the DM. He could have just as easily had 2 - 4 of them at the door and more coming at an alarm call, or out hunting, or any other plausible reason why they weren't all waiting to leap out at the party. The number of them, and their location, and their tactics, are not, by my reading, "on the party" unless they were the ones that got the Trolls to organize that way.

Did they run from an overwhelming group of troll minions or did they attack something they expected to beat? Pick one please because your last post went one way and this goes the opposite.

If they don't know about the trolls they can't be running from them, if they do know about the trolls then they can SEE that the trolls are trying to herd them into the cave and that they can still avoid that!

PICK ONE and stick with it! Because last post you had them running and this post you're claiming they had no reason to run.

IF there HAD been four trolls outside the cave you could just as well say that they ran toward the smaller force! You'd still be wrong, but no more obviously so than you are now. In any case, when DMing I'm not required to stick a sign outside the cave saying "abandon all hope ye who enter here", and if I am required to do that I already did it when I said, "there are mindflayers there".

DougL

Amphetryon

2011-08-22, 08:21 PM

TurtleKing

2011-08-22, 08:44 PM

Did that prophecy say that one of the PCs is alive or just present when that 9th level spell is cast? Depending on how that prophecy was worded they can still fulfill it by being alive, dead, or undead, but all three involve being their with some not even requiring the entire person.

Two 9th spells that come to mind are True Resurrection and Awaken Construct (SpC). The Awaken Construct spell could because the necromancer used bits and pieces of them to make an enormous Flesh Golem along with many others. After that he sends his new "siege engine" at the rest of the world.

Sarco_Phage

2011-08-22, 08:52 PM

Yeah, I support the enslave option. Strip them of gear, put them in the gladiator pits. Have them do that for a session or two, then arrange an escape. Gith, drow, ithilid experiment, slave revolt, lot of options

This.

By stripping them of their gear they're penalized for their tomfoolery, and you could get some fun sessions out of it.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-08-22, 08:56 PM

This.

By stripping them of their gear they're penalized for their tomfoolery, and you could get some fun sessions out of it.

Except give those who use weapons and armor non-magical, non-masterwork versions of the same items.

Drachasor

2011-08-22, 09:00 PM

Apparently there was some confusion in how I phrased my last post, for which I apologize. Allow me to clarify, please.

The players did not decide who was in the cave, the DM did. The players did not decide the number of adversaries that were in the cave, the DM did. The players did not decide to keep that number constant when they charged into the cave (rather than adjusting it to a hard but winnable fight), the DM did.

The players who are relatively weak decided to attack a Mind Flayer base. It is NOT metagaming* for them to know that was a dumb idea -- anymore than it would be metagaming for people in reality to know that rushing a military base with a few friends is stupid.

I'm with the "kill them all" group, but by that I think we all mean "their characters are done." Obviously they are enslaved and so forth and not dead. However, I fully agree with the idea that if you toss a crazy way out, then they'll assume you'll ALWAYS give them an out no matter what they do.

Doing extremely stupid stuff should have consequences. It would be one thing if this was a really unlucky roll, or the DM making a mistake about an encounter difficulty, etc, etc. However, this is a problem ENTIRELY of the players' own making.

If the players at 3rd level decide to rush attack 1000 goblins that form an army, they should die.

If the players decide at 3rd level they should invade the Land of Evil and rush the Fortress of Ickiness, then their characters are done.

If the players decide swimming across lava at 3rd level is a great idea, then they should die.

And of course, if the players decide to try to take out a group of Mind Flayers + Thralls at 3rd level, then they should die (or otherwise fail forever).

There are many, many stupid things players can do to get themselves killed. The least you can do is maintain the believability of the world and have them utterly fail. Save the fancy rescues for when they DON'T do something really suicidal.

*I am not saying you think it is metagaming, but some people probably do.

Hiro Protagonest

2011-08-22, 09:25 PM

snip

And to make it more than just a minor setback, don't let them just roll up new characters. Start them over at level 1 or declare the campaign over and start working on the next one.

Porthos

2011-08-22, 09:37 PM

I'm going to dissent slightly from the RFaED crowd and give an alternative that doesn't involve a DeM. Fact is, people who are saying "Rocks Fall" are completely right. The PCs bit off waaaaaay more than they could chew here. On the other hand, you don't have to resort to a TPK.

What you could do is sit all of the players down (or discuss it via phone/email) and tell them just how utterly screwed they are. Let them know that, through their own actions, they are about 30 seconds from 4d6 time. Then tell them this. If they can come up with a plausible idea of how to get out of this mess, then you'll roll with it.

One example of plausible could mean that they try to offer the Mind Flayer/whoever captures them something that they would want. After all, everyone wants something in this world. Even if it is only seeing it all burn down. Maybe they'll think of something that they could offer to do for the Mind Flayer. And do and do and do and do.

This shifts the burden of finding a solution from you to them. It makes them clean up their own mess. And the good thing is, you don't have to accept it. If they can't think of something that would placate matters in the absolute slightest, throw the book at them.

Now the tricky bit in the above example would be for you to figure out just what the Mind Flayer (or whomever the PCs manage to talk to first) would want. Or what it would find acceptable. Yes, Mind Flayers are enormously intelligent. But they're also enormously egotistical. Factor that into your decision. Who knows, maybe it'll get some kicks with playing with its food for a few months. Decide what type of attitude the Mind Flayer has, and also factor that in. But also factor in that it has presumably seen this song and dance many many times before. So it is going to expect to be betrayed/have what ever promises the PCs make broken.

You can be up front about it and slap a geas as has been mentioned, or you can have the Mind Flayer, if the PCs can somehow come up with something that it might be interested in, monitor them from afar and deal with what it sees as the inevitable betrayal.

Anyway shifting the burden makes them earn their escape. And should deal with the whole "won't respect you any more" angle. Again, presuming they can actually come up with something. Which is not exactly given, considering they rushed into this situation in the first place. :smallsmile:

Yahzi

2011-08-23, 02:52 AM

Anyway shifting the burden makes them earn their escape.
That's a good plan, too.

But I still favor playing out the combat and letting them watch their characters die horribly. Just roll all the dice in the open.

Sure, they'll whine. But you know what? When their next characters are level 9 and come back and wipe out this camp, they'll love it.

darksolitaire

2011-08-23, 05:01 AM

If the players at 3rd level decide to rush attack 1000 goblins that form an army, they should die.

I disagree. This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)should happen instead. Makes much more memorable and epic then dying.

Sarco_Phage

2011-08-23, 05:16 AM

I disagree. This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)should happen instead. Makes much more memorable and epic then dying.

They're 3rd level. Belkar was 10+ in that fight. His level of killitude is so much higher than a 3rd level character's that it's not even funny. A 10+ level group of characters massacring their way through a vastly more numerous force is plausible - especially if more than one of them is a caster, and the force in question is composed of low-level threats like goblins and hobgoblins. A group of 3rd level characters doing so is... not so plausible.

Psyren

2011-08-23, 05:16 AM

5.It has been prophesied that at least one member of the party will live long enough to see someone cast a 9th level spell again.

I'm thinking this might be part of the problem - they take the Elayne approach to prophecy i.e. feeling immortal until it is fulfilled, resulting in pretty stupid behavior. You may want to downplay this person's "destiny" to keep them from taking more foolish risks.

But obviously, if you're dead set on this prophecy being accurate, a TPK is not the best course of action.

Personally, I support one or some combination of the "battle for our amusement, worms!" "OMG DROW ATTACK!" and "I'm not like the others" tactics.

You could have the mindflayer that found them secretly be a sorcerer, and the campaign's ultimate BBEG (or one of them), and seeking immortality by becoming an Alhoon (Mindflayer Lich). Illithid Sorcerers are hated by other Mind Flayers in the coven (and Alhoons a hundred times moreso) so it would have a reason to go against its fellows, as well as the power to do so successfully. There are rules for both of these variants in LoM.

More thoughts in the spoiler:
He could send the PCs to recover an item of some kind that he needs for his phylactery/apotheosis, under the logic that they are not nearly powerful or important enough for the other Illithidae - or even the Elder Brain(!), should you have one - to notice.

He would send them through a rathole that you conveniently staff with encounters just tough enough for them to handle. While inside, they can run into a Drow spy who is able to escape with their help (but who "betrays" them, in typical Drow fashion, by not taking them along and/or abandoning them to the flayers - maybe he enlists their help in reaching his pre-existing escape route, but seals it up behind him before the PCs can follow and laughs at them through the rubble before vanishing.

They acquire their objective, but learn of their benefactor's plans to dispose of them once it is retrieved. Just as despair sets in, the Drow attack - and this is no longer a DEM since it was foreshadowed by your conveniently-placed spy. In the midst of the chaos, the players escape - and they have the option of either abandoning the alhoon's item (resulting in its retrieval, and his ascension as the potential future BBEG) or of taking it with them to try and destroy it (causing him to chase them down as soon as the invasion is dealt with; a weaker, but more immediate, threat.)

You could even go with the gladiator part initially to gain them a level or two beforehand - and this would be their benefactor's way of determining if they are up to the task or how resourceful they are, before entrusting them with such a crucial endeavor - all under the guise of entertainment. And the players of course would be none the wiser until all this is actually underway.

There, you've now gotten several sessions and a plot hook out of a simple diversion, and that's all before they even escape - and none of it is an asspull.

You could also have it be an Ulitharid, though that could be more difficult as they tend to be highly-respected. It would still give him the necessary power and individualistic streak to act on his own though.

I disagree. This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)should happen instead. Makes much more memorable and epic then dying.

He was just a teensy bit higher than level 3 at that point.
(Ninja'd)

Killer Angel

2011-08-23, 05:54 AM

At this point if you let them live you're just reinforcing their bad habits.

Everyone dies, start over at level 1 in a town falling to mind-flayer infiltration and assualt or something.

Seconded.
If you fear to make them pay the right price now, that they're 3rd level, what will happen at 6th level, when the players will be even more attached to their characters?

edit: Psyren's idea is very good, but the issue still remains: will this reinforce their overconfident attitude?

Lady Serpentine

2011-08-23, 05:56 AM

Sarco_Phage

2011-08-23, 05:57 AM

But obviously, if you're dead set on this prophecy being accurate, a TPK is not the best course of action.

I HAVE A SOLUTION: The Mind Flayer is a 20th level rogue Alhoon.

He hits them with Meteor Swarm.

PROPHECY SOLVED.

Psyren

2011-08-23, 06:01 AM

I HAVE A SOLUTION: The Mind Flayer is a 20th level rogue Alhoon.

He hits them with Meteor Swarm.

PROPHECY SOLVED.

I have a tiny feeling there's more to the prophecy than that, and he only summarized it for us :smalltongue:

Lady Serpentine

2011-08-23, 06:06 AM

It would make things much simpler, but I have a feeling you're right.

Maybe have an aboleth come in, thus freeing them from the Mind Flayers, but still leaving them with some major consequences?

CTrees

2011-08-23, 07:02 AM

It would make things much simpler, but I have a feeling you're right.

Maybe have an aboleth come in, thus freeing them from the Mind Flayers, but still leaving them with some major consequences?

Aboleth mucus, forcing them to stay in water, and turning it into an aquantic campaign for awhile? Particularly doing the bidding of their new aboleth quest dispenser master?

Lady Serpentine

2011-08-23, 07:10 AM

Something like that, yes. Eventually the aboleth needs something from the surface, and sends his best slaves after it....

Drachasor

2011-08-23, 10:25 AM

Something like that, yes. Eventually the aboleth needs something from the surface, and sends his best slaves after it....

What exactly is the big negative consequence there that would make then want to play smart in the future?

A lot of these suggestions seem to be "and the campaign takes a very interesting turn"...which would probably not discourage them in the future. Even if they have to work to get "free" (a term of somewhat nebulous value by itself) for a few sessions that doesn't necessarily amount to a negative consequence from a player perspective.

I favor enslaved/dead and no longer PCs because it is a short solid negative kick to the head. Assuming they make new characters they like, then it won't hurt their fun in future sessions. It also avoids any real problems of figuring out a way to make future sessions both fun and negative, which is tricky with the same characters.

CTrees

2011-08-23, 11:46 AM

What exactly is the big negative consequence there that would make then want to play smart in the future?

That's why I was thinking use of Aboleth mucus (presumably with some means of making it endure longer - Aboleths are intelligent). "You lose the ability to breathe air, and must continue life underwater" hits a pretty big consequence, especially at level three. Have them act as the Aboleth's slaves for awhile - actually send them on an (underwater) quest or three, furthering this evil creature's goals (or die). They're alive, but they're sins against nature, living an existance horrible enough to make them question if they want to just kill themselves to be free. Then provide a hook for the PCs to escape, after waiting long enough to make them believe you won't.

Doktor Per

2011-08-23, 12:06 PM

Have the mind flayers look the party over for a bit (I'm imagining there is three of the aberrations.) The have a big laugh, not really taking them seriously, then one of the mind flayers challenges one of the party members in a one on one fight. "So it'll be fair."

Then just work down the line of characters until someone tries to run the hell out. (And tumble or dodge between the trolls, ha ha) If one of them survives by the skin of their teeth, it will not only let the campaign continue on course but you will have created a trio of cocky Antagonists that play with their food and giving your survivor a very real reason to run away or get revenge.

Amphetryon

2011-08-23, 12:27 PM

It would be one thing if this was a really unlucky roll, or the DM making a mistake about an encounter difficulty, etc, etc.We'll have to agree to disagree then, since I'd lump "blocking the escape [for a 3rd level party] with 20 Trolls" in with "making a mistake about an encounter difficulty".

Lady Serpentine

2011-08-23, 12:59 PM

Drachasor

2011-08-23, 01:02 PM

That's why I was thinking use of Aboleth mucus (presumably with some means of making it endure longer - Aboleths are intelligent). "You lose the ability to breathe air, and must continue life underwater" hits a pretty big consequence, especially at level three. Have them act as the Aboleth's slaves for awhile - actually send them on an (underwater) quest or three, furthering this evil creature's goals (or die). They're alive, but they're sins against nature, living an existance horrible enough to make them question if they want to just kill themselves to be free. Then provide a hook for the PCs to escape, after waiting long enough to make them believe you won't.

High chance of "cool underwater adventure that we wouldn't have otherwise gotten." Though, if it is too awful, then there's a high chance of "I hate this campaign" which isn't desirable either.

Is it impossible to find a balance here? No, but it is going to be extremely tricky, imho.

We'll have to agree to disagree then, since I'd lump "blocking the escape [for a 3rd level party] with 20 Trolls" in with "making a mistake about an encounter difficulty".

Frankly, at that point they had already signed their characters over. They KNEW the Mind Flayers used trolls. They KNEW trolls traveled in large groups in this world. They let the Mind Flayers know they were coming. Any idiot would know they couldn't handle Mind Flayers at level 3.

They spent a lot of time going in the "let's get ourselves killed/enslaved" direction and the 20 trolls were at the end of it.

Psyren

2011-08-23, 03:22 PM

You know, creativity isn't limited to the players. if the OP had really wanted to just break out the character sheets, this thread wouldnt even exist.

heavyfishcannon

2011-08-23, 03:27 PM

I would say have the mindflayers enslave the PC's into lapdogs (not brainwashed, maybe for espionage purposes?) and have the mind flayer force them to kill enough low-level enemies until they can revolt against their former master.

Drachasor

2011-08-23, 03:32 PM

You know, creativity isn't limited to the players. if the OP had really wanted to just break out the character sheets, this thread wouldnt even exist.

Never said it was limited. That doesn't mean new character sheets isn't the best move at this juncture.

Psyren

2011-08-23, 03:49 PM

Never said it was limited. That doesn't mean new character sheets isn't the best move at this juncture.

Meh, seems pretty boring to me. But he would know how his group would react to that better than we would.

Drachasor

2011-08-23, 04:04 PM

Meh, seems pretty boring to me. But he would know how his group would react to that better than we would.

No offense to the OP, but he clearly can't be sure of how they'll react. That's the cause of this whole mess to begin with. Not saying we can be sure either, but successfully making a good punishment in-game when players have been suicidally stupid while still making sure things are really fun, isn't easy.

It might be boring to go with new characters, but that's a firm and short punishment and the game can go straight to being really fun again.

Amphetryon

2011-08-23, 04:12 PM

No offense to the OP, but he clearly can't be sure of how they'll react. That's the cause of this whole mess to begin with. Not saying we can be sure either, but successfully making a good punishment in-game when players have been suicidally stupid while still making sure things are really fun, isn't easy.

It might be boring to go with new characters, but that's a firm and short punishment and the game can go straight to being really fun again.

"Punishment" is an interesting choice of term there.

Piggy Knowles

2011-08-23, 04:14 PM

What you could do is sit all of the players down (or discuss it via phone/email) and tell them just how utterly screwed they are. Let them know that, through their own actions, they are about 30 seconds from 4d6 time. Then tell them this. If they can come up with a plausible idea of how to get out of this mess, then you'll roll with it.

This is honestly the best advice I've seen in this thread. You don't want your characters to feel like you're constantly going to throw them a lifeline, but you also don't want them to feel like you've railroaded them into a hopeless situation. This is the best way to get across that their actions have consequences, and that they have more or less walked into a hopeless situation, without forcing them into something that might take away their fun.

Drachasor

2011-08-23, 04:20 PM

"Punishment" is an interesting choice of term there.

Seems accurate. It's a negative consequence for acting completely suicidal. I mean it in a psychological sense, and that's really what we're talking about here, I think. What to do to help ensure the players won't behave so insanely in the future. Ideally, I think, we want them to think a bit more if something like this comes up again.

Amphetryon

2011-08-23, 04:22 PM

Seems accurate. It's a negative consequence for acting completely suicidal. I mean it in a psychological sense, and that's really what we're talking about here, I think. What to do to help ensure the players won't behave so insanely in the future. Ideally, I think, we want them to think a bit more if something like this comes up again.

And if the players found their in-character actions fun? Should that be punished as well?

Drachasor

2011-08-23, 04:33 PM

And if the players found their in-character actions fun? Should that be punished as well?

If the players want a ROFL-stomp where they don't have to think and everything is killable at any level, and the DM is happy with that too, then that's alright for them.

The DM definitely isn't happy here, and I don't think I've ever met a player that really has wanted that -- tends to make player decisions mean very little. D&D of any flavor is probably a terrible system to use for such a game as well (levels, for instance, don't matter).

If any significant level of verisimilitude is desired, then the players essentially HAVE to be punished by bad decisions -- unless they are very lucky, but the worse the decision, the less likely luck will help. What we have here is a terribly, terribly, bad decision.

Psyren

2011-08-23, 05:48 PM

You can punish them without slaughtering them though, just like you can let them escape this without it being a "roflstomp." The aforementioned gladiator/slave ideas where they lose all their gear are plenty adequate here.

My point is that any hack DM can rocks-fall them; a believable escape is much trickier to craft. You could easily say that a bunch of level 9-12 clowns taking on an epic lich deserve a TPK too, yet we all know how that turned out.

Godskook

2011-08-23, 06:22 PM

And if the players found their in-character actions fun? Should that be punished as well?

What about my fun? I spend a lot of time generating a campaign setting from scratch with quite a bit of unique plot and a lot of homebrew. Its not fun when my only 'choice' is to gut a year's worth of campaign lore that's actually been spoken in-game as well as a huge amount of untold lore that basically tells me the motivations for the top 100 most notable NPCs in the game, when my players decide they want to 'raid' a mind flayer cult that I've spent countless hours of in-session time setting up lore around as stuff the party isn't supposed to be capable of fighting(it wasn't their current 'quest') so that they can have 'fun'. I'm sorry, but I'm not gutting that much work because I didn't use a neon sign and railroad tracks.

Amphetryon

2011-08-23, 06:36 PM

Psyren

2011-08-23, 06:39 PM

Drachasor

2011-08-23, 07:18 PM

You can punish them without slaughtering them though, just like you can let them escape this without it being a "roflstomp." The aforementioned gladiator/slave ideas where they lose all their gear are plenty adequate here.

Level 3...how is losing gear meaningful at all? (To say nothing of how at higher levels it can really imbalance the system).

My point is that any hack DM can rocks-fall them; a believable escape is much trickier to craft. You could easily say that a bunch of level 9-12 clowns taking on an epic lich deserve a TPK too, yet we all know how that turned out.

It isn't like the DM is 'making' rocks fall on them, they ran into the cave collapse. They spent time planning how they'd run into it, even! So yeah, a believable escape that also teaches them not to be complete idiots would be really hard to do.

Psyren, what would you advice if they had just had a really tough combat where everyone died due to bad dice rolls? Should they escape that too? Or do you think bad luck is more important to respect than bad decisions?

I don't immediately get your epic lich reference, but I imagine it isn't to a game but a film/tv show/whatever. That's not the same thing at all.

As far as talking to the players about this, I agree with that idea. It should be made clear that they effectively died because they made really, really bad decisions. It's possible that don't realize that for mysterious reasons. Also, it would be good to get some idea of what was going through their heads.

Amphetryon

2011-08-23, 07:38 PM

Level 3...how is losing gear meaningful at all? (To say nothing of how at higher levels it can really imbalance the system).

It isn't like the DM is 'making' rocks fall on them, they ran into the cave collapse. They spent time planning how they'd run into it, even! So yeah, a believable escape that also teaches them not to be complete idiots would be really hard to do.

Psyren, what would you advice if they had just had a really tough combat where everyone died due to bad dice rolls? Should they escape that too? Or do you think bad luck is more important to respect than bad decisions?

I don't immediately get your epic lich reference, but I imagine it isn't to a game but a film/tv show/whatever. That's not the same thing at all.

As far as talking to the players about this, I agree with that idea. It should be made clear that they effectively died because they made really, really bad decisions. It's possible that don't realize that for mysterious reasons. Also, it would be good to get some idea of what was going through their heads.
To the first point, hopefully the loss of gear is meaningful from the characters' perspective, regardless of big-picture, metagame understanding.

Epic Lich vs some "level 9 - 12 clowns" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html).

Drachasor

2011-08-23, 07:42 PM

To the first point, hopefully the loss of gear is meaningful from the characters' perspective, regardless of big-picture, metagame understanding.

Epic Lich vs some "level 9 - 12 clowns" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html).

OotS is NOT a game. It's a decidedly silly comic (with occasional bouts of seriousness). There's a huge difference.

Loss of easily replaceable gear shouldn't bother anyone. It's hardly metagaming to know that it won't be hard to get equivalent or better gear in the future. To say nothing of how this hurts some characters a lot more than others.

Amphetryon

2011-08-23, 07:51 PM

Loss of easily replaceable gear shouldn't bother anyone. It's hardly metagaming to know that it won't be hard to get equivalent or better gear in the future. To say nothing of how this hurts some characters a lot more than others.So are those characters who are attached to their stuff - perhaps their grandfather's sword, perhaps items they crafted at personal GP/XP cost themselves - doing it wrong, then?

Drachasor

2011-08-23, 07:54 PM

So are those characters who are attached to their stuff - perhaps their grandfather's sword, perhaps items they crafted at personal GP/XP cost themselves - doing it wrong, then?

I think that's fits under "it hurts some more than others." That said, heirloom gear is pretty rare in my experience, so it is very unlikely to be an issue here. As for items they crafted themselves, the magical stuff would be the "hardest" to replace, but at 3rd level this is NOT HARD AT ALL nor could they have made much of note.

If that's the best case you have for how losing gear at 3rd level is a fitting punishment for suicidal stupidity, then your argument is very weak.

Sarco_Phage

2011-08-23, 07:57 PM

Epic Lich vs some "level 9 - 12 clowns" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html).

I'm going with the theory that Roy rolled triple 20s in that fight.

Psyren

2011-08-23, 08:16 PM

Level 3...how is losing gear meaningful at all? (To say nothing of how at higher levels it can really imbalance the system).

I obviously can't answer that without knowing what they got and how they got it. It was a suggestion.

Psyren, what would you advice if they had just had a really tough combat where everyone died due to bad dice rolls? Should they escape that too? Or do you think bad luck is more important to respect than bad decisions?

Depends on the group, really.

OotS is NOT a game. It's a decidedly silly comic (with occasional bouts of seriousness). There's a huge difference.

"Decidedly silly with occasional bouts of seriousness?" Sounds like D&D to me.

Drachasor

2011-08-23, 08:17 PM

"Decidedly silly with occasional bouts of seriousness?" Sounds like D&D to me.

I guess Buffy The Vampire Slayer is also D&D. Or most any Sit Com for that matter.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that D&D is a game, and OotS is not.

Psyren

2011-08-23, 08:24 PM

You seem to be ignoring the fact that D&D is a game, and OotS is not.

I'm ignoring it? I'm the one coming up with interactive solutions to the problem here. Stomping all the players is a cutscene.

Talentless

2011-08-23, 08:24 PM

To the first point, hopefully the loss of gear is meaningful from the characters' perspective, regardless of big-picture, metagame understanding.

Epic Lich vs some "level 9 - 12 clowns" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html).

Um... correct me if i'm wrong, but

A) Said group is level 14 or above right? Since V regularly casted 7th level spells up till that fight.

And Exhibit B) Xykon was running a Xanatos gambit to deal with the wards on the gate at that moment, not actively trying to obliterate them, right?

Sarco_Phage

2011-08-23, 08:26 PM

I'm ignoring it? I'm the one coming up with interactive solutions to the problem here. Stomping all the players is a cutscene.

That's true, but in this situation a cutscene is no different than if they actually played out an encounter which pitted a bunch of 3rd level goofballs against a hundred trolls and a pissed off Mind Flayer.

Psyren

2011-08-23, 08:33 PM

That's true, but in this situation a cutscene is no different than if they actually played out an encounter which pitted a bunch of 3rd level goofballs against a hundred trolls and a pissed off Mind Flayer.

Indeed, but I didn't suggest that either.

Um... correct me if i'm wrong, but

A) Said group is level 14 or above right? Since V regularly casted 7th level spells up till that fight.

Huh? When? :smallconfused:
The highest level spell V used at that point in the story was Invisibility Sphere (third-level) or maybe Evan's Spiked Tentacles Etc., (which we don't have a number for, but given that Black Tentacles is 4th, couldn't be much higher than that.)

And Exhibit B) Xykon was running a Xanatos gambit to deal with the wards on the gate at that moment, not actively trying to obliterate them, right?

Exactly - plot. You can use it in all kinds of ways to prevent TPKs. In fact, "the bad guy needs them for something" was one of the suggestions presented above.

Amphetryon

2011-08-23, 08:40 PM

I think that's fits under "it hurts some more than others." That said, heirloom gear is pretty rare in my experience, so it is very unlikely to be an issue here. As for items they crafted themselves, the magical stuff would be the "hardest" to replace, but at 3rd level this is NOT HARD AT ALL nor could they have made much of note.

If that's the best case you have for how losing gear at 3rd level is a fitting punishment for suicidal stupidity, then your argument is very weak.
Ah. I thought we were debating the scenario, rather than disparaging others' arguments. I'll be going, then. Carry on.

Drachasor

2011-08-23, 08:48 PM

I'm ignoring it? I'm the one coming up with interactive solutions to the problem here. Stomping all the players is a cutscene.

When you start using a web comic as a serious argument for a how a game works, yeah, you're losing sight of things a bit.

There've had tons of interactivity that led them up to the essential TPK point. It isn't like Mind Flayers leave their victims in a decent state to resist. Even if they did, it isn't like 3rd level characters could do anything. Minions to accomplish a goal? The Mind Flayers already have better options.

Sure, there are tons of ways you could have the players survive. I'm not denying that. A good way that doesn't make it clear that the players will survive anything no matter how stupid they behave? I'm not seeing that. The suggestions so far have been very, very vague on how the players will see acting stupidly was a bad idea. Many and perhaps most or all have proposed really cool adventures that would probably encourage acting extremely rashly in the future.

Again, I do recommend the DM talk to the players about what was going through their heads. It would be good to know that.

Part of the DM's job is to provide a world where actions have consequences that are believable. That's important and shouldn't be ignored.

Ah. I thought we were debating the scenario, rather than disparaging others' arguments. I'll be going, then. Carry on.

I'm not sure "debate" means what you think it means.

Eldest

2011-08-23, 08:53 PM

[Wishes he ignored the last dozen posts or so]
Perhaps, to suggest something useful, go with
What you could do is sit all of the players down (or discuss it via phone/email) and tell them just how utterly screwed they are. Let them know that, through their own actions, they are about 30 seconds from 4d6 time. Then tell them this. If they can come up with a plausible idea of how to get out of this mess, then you'll roll with it.. Then, if this ends up with a TPK/thralldom, have your players start a second party with ties to the first (siblings, old friends, etc.) and add as one of their goals to free the first group, when they are powerful enough. You wouldn't be wasting the campaign setting, which would (understandably) cheese you off, and they would have a consequence from their action. Does that make sense?

Psyren

2011-08-23, 08:54 PM

When you start using a web comic as a serious argument for a how a game works, yeah, you're losing sight of things a bit.

Serious arguments about games? What a strange notion :smalltongue:

Part of the DM's job is to provide a world where actions have consequences that are believable. That's important and shouldn't be ignored.

Plenty of the suggestions above were believable to me *shrug*

Godskook

2011-08-23, 11:55 PM

Epic Lich vs some "level 9 - 12 clowns" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0105.html).

The distinct difference is that the 'DM' never hinted at Xykon's level in that part of the campaign, and later on, when he 'forced' the party to engage against Xykon's forces, he didn't really put them directly against him(Roy was stubborn in that regard, and died for it), and the others decidedly never 'had' to do that. They haven't had to directly deal with him since.

It sounds like you've answered your own question. Why then do you require our input?

All I've 'answered' is if I'm going to 'let this go', which I'm not. What I'm exploring is options that don't involve gutting the lore of my campaign setting, and do bring about logical consequences, but without ending in a TPK. Since the possibilities are rather confusing to come up with, I'm asking for help. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Fitz10019

2011-08-24, 12:34 AM

You have suggestions that will keep your campaign intact. If you think more punishment should be involved, roll randomly to see which PC's brain is consumed in front of the party (or make it the party leader). Then you should have at least one player who will argue against suicidal suggestions.

Killer Angel

2011-08-24, 01:59 AM

If you think more punishment should be involved, roll randomly to see which PC's brain is consumed in front of the party (or make it the party leader). Then you should have at least one player who will argue against suicidal suggestions.

Why roll randomly, when we already have a perfectly valid suggestion (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0031.html)? :smalltongue:

Talbot

2011-08-24, 02:22 AM

What about my fun? I spend a lot of time generating a campaign setting from scratch with quite a bit of unique plot and a lot of homebrew. Its not fun when my only 'choice' is to gut a year's worth of campaign lore that's actually been spoken in-game as well as a huge amount of untold lore that basically tells me the motivations for the top 100 most notable NPCs in the game, when my players decide they want to 'raid' a mind flayer cult that I've spent countless hours of in-session time setting up lore around as stuff the party isn't supposed to be capable of fighting(it wasn't their current 'quest') so that they can have 'fun'. I'm sorry, but I'm not gutting that much work because I didn't use a neon sign and railroad tracks.

I *hate* this kind of reasoning. If you can't have fun with the players you have... don't play with those players. But they made in-character choices, apparently, regardless of whether or not they fully understood the situation, and that's what the game is about. If it screws up your campaign (and your fun), there's about a 99% chance one of two things are the case:

1) It's your fault for creating/allowing that possibility in the first place.

2) Your campaign isn't very well built. "Players are unpredictable" may as well be rule -1.

Yes, there's a chance that neither are the case, but that probably means "find new players", and this doesn't sound like one of those cases. Basically, you tried to railroad them away from the Mindflayers, it backfired (because they ran from the Trolls instead of through them, which, to be fair, makes at least SOME sense; 20 Trolls > 1 Mindflayer under most circumstances), and now you're complaining because they didn't do what you wanted.

Your first post was a better one; "how do I fix this?" is good. "What about my fun?" is not ever the way to approach DMing. No, not even then. Or then.

Rogue Shadows

2011-08-24, 02:28 AM

T-P-K!
T-P-K!
T-P-K!
T-P-K!
T-P-K!
T-P-K!
T-P-K!

I *hate* this kind of reasoning. If you can't have fun with the players you have... don't play with those players.

I hate this responce. Players finding a new DM is easy. DMs finding new players is a chore and a half. It's the number one reason why, as a DM, if a player gets out of hand I deal with the problem in-game rather than in the real world (and why I'm not afraid of a good TPK, though I've yet to have the chance to make a real one in-game). Characters way easier to replace than players.

2) Your campaign isn't very well built. "Players are unpredictable" may as well be rule -1.

I usually had it as, "DM RULE -1: Even when they aren't, your players are always intentionally trying to ruin your campaign."

Followed by "DM RULE -2: Even when you think you are, you are never challenging your players enough. Go on, throw another Rancor into that pit! That'll learn 'em for ruining your campaign."

All I've 'answered' is if I'm going to 'let this go', which I'm not. What I'm exploring is options that don't involve gutting the lore of my campaign setting, and do bring about logical consequences, but without ending in a TPK. Since the possibilities are rather confusing to come up with, I'm asking for help. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Ever heard of an old 2nd Edition module called The Night Below?

Well. In The Night Below, the Party could come across a bunch of very evil illithids that nevertheless needed the PC's help to take down the Big Bads of the setting, the aboleths. The illithids negotiated in good faith and didn't typically try to eat the Party's brains.

Take that route, if you're dead-set against a TPK*. Have the illithid have bigger fish to fry.

Hell, that'd be a wake-up call for the Party. They're not even worth the illithid's effort to dominate and save for later eating. He just tells them to go away.

Then if they decide to stick around anyway...

T-P-K!
T-P-K!
T-P-K!
T-P-K!
T-P-K!
T-P-K!
T-P-K!

Killer Angel

2011-08-24, 05:55 AM

"What about my fun?" is not ever the way to approach DMing. No, not even then. Or then.

Well, an unhappy DM is a candidate to be an ex-DM...
But yeah, a DM must have fun, only, the fun should come automatically, when the players enjoy the adventure.
Having fun is not the objective of the DM; it's the consequence.

Elboxo

2011-08-24, 06:10 AM

Protection from Evil blocks mind control (including psionic control and geases), right? The Flayers figure that they now have the perfect team to go steal an artifact they've wanted (no voiding their minds, because their skill set as a team is what is needed). They send the PCs. The artifact is protected by a permanenced Magic Circle spell.

The PCs will enjoy getting to plot a heist, and they get to regain their self-control as soon as they reach their objective. The Flayers might keep the Ex-PC as a hostage, if you feel that they would anticipate this. The church that protects the artifact could be persuaded to loan it to the PCs, who now have the protection they need to make a better plan, or not, if you really want them to drop this.

Quoted from SRD "The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect."- Protection from evil, they'd have to stay in the area of the circle, i.e reach the artifact and not move... until dominate runs out......

Have them try steal an artifact maybe and have them knocked out by clerics/paladins on the way and then questioned, they realise the PCs are under mind control and so hold them in confinement/release them from the dominate somehow. Or of course have the old internal conflict in the mind-flayers thing going on. One guy in charge of a legion of trolls, sets out to kill higher ranked mind flayers to get more powerful. Troll/troll fights and mindflayer/troll fights. Include explosions and whatnot so they realise how strong the freakin mindflayers are so they don't mess with them again. Have whoever controls the PCs get killed, dominate ends on that group of prisoners, they escape during the fight, get chased out by hunting parties, PCs have to hide, strip them of ALL items, they live in the wild for a while, trying to escape. * This might be boring for a wizard/cleric you have if he loses his book, maybe he picks up someone elses?

Jornophelanthas

2011-08-24, 06:14 AM

Your first post was a better one; "how do I fix this?" is good. "What about my fun?" is not ever the way to approach DMing. No, not even then. Or then.

You are quoting the OP out of context. The OP was stating that the players' fun is no justification for having them get away with everything (which was actually suggested by someone else in this thread), because doing so might cause the DM (i.e. the OP) to not have fun any more.

All the OP was saying is that a DM is not the players' servant slaving away at providing them with fun; but that a DM is supposed to have fun too. And the OP has stated in his first post that he is not having fun bailing the players out of every single situation using bizarrely improbably deus ex machina devices, because it cheapens his own (and the players') emotional investment and suspense of disbelief in his painstakingly detailed gameworld.

However, you seem to misconstrue this statement to suggest that the OP only believes that the players should be there to amuse him. I'm sure the OP does not believe that.

Psyren

2011-08-24, 06:32 AM

Gwendol

2011-08-24, 06:33 AM

I find it extremly funny to talk about a "believable" way out of a confrontation with trolls and mind flayers, in a setting where combat is turn based, and magic works.

Just pick any of the excellent suggestions given and roll with it: you have a setting made, the illithids are worked out; use them! Figure out a way for both you and your players to have fun, because that is the purpose of the game: entertainment!

Yahzi

2011-08-24, 07:25 AM

What I'm exploring is options that don't involve gutting the lore of my campaign setting, and do bring about logical consequences, but without ending in a TPK.
I have some bad news for you then.

Either your players are complete idiots, in which case your campaign is screwed; or they aren't, in which case your campaign is still screwed. Because if they aren't idiots, they did this for a reason, and that reason was pretty clearly all your campaign lore.

A detailed, fleshed-out setting is great, right up until the point it becomes confining. It's fantastic to have the sense of a living world, that rolls on around you with its own logic. The desire is then to affect that world, to change its path in ways that reflect your own personal desires.

Unfortunately, your world revolves around the PCs, and requires them to change it in ways you have already decided. Hence... rebellion.

They are trying to break free of the chains of destiny you have laid upon them. The lesson is: if you want to railroad, you have to be way more subtle.

Airanath

2011-08-24, 07:29 AM

Tell your players to roll 4d6b3 again, they roll new characters, after enough gaming with the new characters, they reach lvl 20, and raid a illithid camp, where they free some delusional slaves talking about the plots by their previous foes. You show them consequences, and get to resume the old plot, not pumped up to epic scales.

Sarco_Phage

2011-08-24, 09:44 AM

I find it extremly funny to talk about a "believable" way out of a confrontation with trolls and mind flayers, in a setting where combat is turn based, and magic works.

No, dude, no, suspension of disbelief doesn't mean suspension of all disbelief. Logic must still have some place in the narrative, else it is not a narrative.

Fable Wright

2011-08-24, 10:39 AM

Hm... thinking about this, and all the arguments about why this would/wouldn't work, I think I have a decent solution for this.

The PCs are currently locked up in the slave pits, correct? When the Illithid masters go and try to pick out a good prisoner for a feast, they begin to read the minds of the prisoners, and find out who has had a life interesting enough to be used for a feast. When they do, they come across a strange thought- that one of the prisoners is going to live to see a 9th level spell. That experience is something that would be truly amazing. Something that would be beyond any mind any illithid in the last I-don't-know-how-long years would have experienced. That is an experience that they want to try to capture. So, they round up the PCs that might be the ones to see the actual 9th level spell- and then they give them a choice. Either consent to a process that will allow them to live their lives normally until they see that 9th level spell, at which point the enchantment will go off, they will all be stripped of their free will without a save, and be returned to the illithid camp to have their mind eaten and it's thoughts and experiences spread to the entire illithid race (with the illithids able to detonate it any time earlier, to prevent the party from wiping it out) - or, they can kill off all of them but one, and keep that one chained up in isolation for the rest of his life in the illithid experiment labs, so that they can guarantee that one of those illithids will develop a 9th level spell. This makes for an interesting twist, as the party lives their lives on a leash, until they see that spell and go catatonic until they get their brains eaten by illithids. The viewing of the 9th level spell is something both to be looked forward to and dreaded- but they can take precautions to make sure that the campaign stays on track. For example, by leaving blood samples at a temple, so that they can be ressurected once their brains have been eaten and they can share their experiences with the world- and then get revenge on the illithids for killing them and eating their brains. Just my 2 cents.

Fitz10019

2011-08-24, 11:46 AM

Quoted from SRD "The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect."- Protection from evil, they'd have to stay in the area of the circle, i.e reach the artifact and not move... until dominate runs out......

Have them try steal an artifact maybe and have them knocked out by clerics/paladins on the way and then questioned, they realise the PCs are under mind control and so hold them in confinement/release them from the dominate somehow.

Yeah, that is my suggestion. I didn't mean it would end the dominance. At the moment they attain the artifact, they will be free to decide to ask for help or not.

Godskook

2011-08-24, 03:59 PM

@Jornophelanthas:

I should have you write all my responses for me. You summed up what I would've wanted to say perfectly.

Wait, are you reading my mind?

Then here's a straightforward question: Do you like any of the suggestions presented so far? If so, why, if not, why not?

Some feedback/guidance to the brainstorming session would help.

Allrighty:

1.I don't really like the idea of "group X" simply and coincidentally deciding to attack the mind flayers, such that the PCs 'happen' to get out. It's a Deus Ex Machina, but I'm using Hades instead of Zeus. It also gives no connection between 'logical consequence' and their choice(i.e., if I killed one of them in this option, it really wouldn't be connected with 'raid a mind flayer camp').

2.The Mind Flayer's know who and what the party is, and have 'debriefed' them enough to be aware of most of the things that would make 'treating the PCs as just another set of food-stock slaves' not make any sense.

3.It is however, possible to insert people into the slave pits whom the Mind Flayer's aren't fully aware of, at least without having gone too deep into psionics and/or mind flayers to know if there's an easy counter to it. A simulacrum or a Harper are both likely to have done so. They're also both likely to execute the party leader for setting this mess up. This is my currently favorite plan, but it leaves some to be desired.

4.As suggested by my roommate, I can do this. (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-04-08) The Mind Flayers already know enough that doing so would have purposes served for them by turning them into an amnesiac sleeper cell, but my biggest problems with the "you don't remember what happened, but you think you were never in a mind flayer camp" idea is that it avoids the "logical consequence" concept too hard, and thus, I could very easily be back in this same boat with them expecting another bail-out, and that's not healthy for the campaign. Something I'll definitely save for an occasion where the over CR'ed encounter is my fault.

Talbot

2011-08-24, 05:17 PM

You are quoting the OP out of context. The OP was stating that the players' fun is no justification for having them get away with everything (which was actually suggested by someone else in this thread), because doing so might cause the DM (i.e. the OP) to not have fun any more.

All the OP was saying is that a DM is not the players' servant slaving away at providing them with fun; but that a DM is supposed to have fun too. And the OP has stated in his first post that he is not having fun bailing the players out of every single situation using bizarrely improbably deus ex machina devices, because it cheapens his own (and the players') emotional investment and suspense of disbelief in his painstakingly detailed gameworld.

However, you seem to misconstrue this statement to suggest that the OP only believes that the players should be there to amuse him. I'm sure the OP does not believe that.

I misunderstood the context. My bad. Objection cheerfully withdrawn.

Psyren

2011-08-24, 06:52 PM

1.I don't really like the idea of "group X" simply and coincidentally deciding to attack the mind flayers, such that the PCs 'happen' to get out. It's a Deus Ex Machina, but I'm using Hades instead of Zeus. It also gives no connection between 'logical consequence' and their choice(i.e., if I killed one of them in this option, it really wouldn't be connected with 'raid a mind flayer camp').

Fair enough, though I will point out there are ways to make it not be a coincidence. A slave or spy that the PCs help free could easily instigate the assault, and if they fail in doing so they're still stuck.

2.The Mind Flayer's know who and what the party is, and have 'debriefed' them enough to be aware of most of the things that would make 'treating the PCs as just another set of food-stock slaves' not make any sense.

This is actually a good thing - it leads to all sorts of reasons to keep the PCs alive. Perhaps the hive (or one very influential member, such as an Ulitharid/Elder Brain) could take interest in the prophecy you mentioned, for instance.

3.It is however, possible to insert people into the slave pits whom the Mind Flayer's aren't fully aware of, at least without having gone too deep into psionics and/or mind flayers to know if there's an easy counter to it. A simulacrum or a Harper are both likely to have done so. They're also both likely to execute the party leader for setting this mess up. This is my currently favorite plan, but it leaves some to be desired.

A Harper, likely to kill a member of the party? I'm not sure I read this one right.

4.As suggested by my roommate, I can do this. (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/2001-04-08) The Mind Flayers already know enough that doing so would have purposes served for them by turning them into an amnesiac sleeper cell, but my biggest problems with the "you don't remember what happened, but you think you were never in a mind flayer camp" idea is that it avoids the "logical consequence" concept too hard, and thus, I could very easily be back in this same boat with them expecting another bail-out, and that's not healthy for the campaign. Something I'll definitely save for an occasion where the over CR'ed encounter is my fault.

I'm not a fan of this one either, although there is one way it could be pretty horrific. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSeed.htm)

JonRG

2011-08-24, 07:26 PM

A Harper, likely to kill a member of the party? I'm not sure I read this one right.

You did. The OP said that the party royally pissed off all but one faction.

I only know the Harpers from BGII, but they were trying to execute my character at the time. So if the Party Leader screwed up their sting operation bad, I can see him being put to the sword for that.

I like the amnesiac sleeper cell idea. You could always have the mindflayer give a Hannibal Lecture on how ridiculously stupid this was. Basically a D&D version of this jerk (http://animalcrossing.wikia.com/wiki/Mr._Resetti). The PCs might not remember the lesson, but the players definitely will. :smallwink:

Godskook

2011-08-24, 11:12 PM

A Harper, likely to kill a member of the party? I'm not sure I read this one right.

When you're blowing your cover to get valuable people out from behind enemy lines, someone who is known for betrayal, and too dangerous to leave behind is also someone you can't allow to live.

Fitz10019

2011-08-25, 01:21 AM

1-4
Aw, my hiest suggestion doesn't even get a response. I'll go plan my own hiest and show you ALL! :smallbiggrin:

Drachasor

2011-08-25, 01:34 AM

Hmm.

Have them make new level 1 characters. At some point in the future reveal these ARE their original characters with their minds wiped and bodies altered by the mind flayers. They've been placed as spies and unknowingly have been passing information to the Flayers (like Garibaldi in Babylon 5).

This might come to a head in a future adventure where they have to track down an intelligence leak, and the evidence they find points to themselves. You'd have to spice that up a bit towards the end of their investigation with them remembering bits and pieces of leaking the info (otherwise they'll refuse to believe they are the leak).

Could be cool. Avoids the problem of the players being aware they are sleeper agents.

On the other hand, I still can't think of anything really cool to do with their characters that works as a great deterrence against stupidity without ending them in some way.

Though....I guess you could go with your friend's idea. Have them wake up from a horrible dream about being mentally assaulted by the flayers. They go on about their business. They'll need to get lost in caves or otherwise lose track of time at some point. Much later, they find out the Mind Flayer thing DID happen and they've been passing intel to them all along. Hmm, this is not that great to me though.

Godskook

2011-08-25, 02:40 AM

Aw, my hiest suggestion doesn't even get a response. I'll go plan my own hiest and show you ALL! :smallbiggrin:

See #2 on the list, which covers your heist idea. The mind flayers aren't going to treat them 'lightly' enough that anything short of #4 happens on their release.

CapnVan

2011-08-25, 08:05 AM

All I've 'answered' is if I'm going to 'let this go', which I'm not. What I'm exploring is options that don't involve gutting the lore of my campaign setting, and do bring about logical consequences, but without ending in a TPK. Since the possibilities are rather confusing to come up with, I'm asking for help. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Frankly, it seems the question you need to be asking is far simpler: why are spending all this time on lore and home-brewing when your players appear not to understand the basics of the game?

Either you've rescued them before, in which case they clearly feel un-killable, or they don't understand basic concepts like "Run away!" and "Don't go after monsters that will slaughter you!"

In short, you're asking them to read Ulysses when they can't read Run Spot Run!

If you don't want to lose all the work you've done, fine. Suspend the campaign for a while. Run some one-shots. Make sure they understand the basics. Take your time about coming up with an out for yourself in the current campaign. Come back to it when your players understand how to play.

MonarchAnarch

2011-08-25, 09:49 AM

Right off the bat of the next session, TPK. you have the whole rest of the session to re-roll and start over. They will respect you and your worlds from here on out.

My group hadn't killed any players for at least two years after we started gaming. DM always fudged a way out. My last game a player walked into an obvious trap and the two of three monsters landed crits. Nothing I could do so he died. From then on, they had the mindset that THE GAME JUST GOT REAL.

Fitz10019

2011-08-25, 11:39 AM

I don't know how I missed the connection. There's nothing 'light' about mental domination, and the MFs would be impassive. I think you're angry -- you want it to be heavy. If you want a pound of flesh, a harsh lesson to make the players more serious, kill one of the PCs, with lots of brain-chewing imagery.

Anyway, whatever sleeper instructions the MFs give the PCs, it could include something like "and under no circumstances are you to discuss your instructions with Baron Greenhilt." Make it sound like the MFs fear the baron getting wind of them, while he is actually one of their lackeys and functions as their error trap if the PCs regain their mental freedom.