Is there a way to undo lichdom?

[SoHardToRegiste]

Let's say the Lich wants to permanently be human again, which of these ideas would work:

-Wish spell
-Fates card from the Deck of Many Things
-Destroying his phylactery + True Resurrection

Although I think method #3 could end up being an accidental suicide. I'm not even sure if the Wish can pull it off, but I'm confident that method #2 would work.

Also, if the creature wants to remain a Lich, but also wants to put heirs on the throne of a country, can he cast Shapechange to temporarily return to its human form, procreate, then go back to his usual life a a Lich?

Would those offspring be 100% normal humans or would they have some weird template?

[Morph Bark]

Also, if the creature wants to remain a Lich, but also wants to put heirs on the throne of a country, can he cast Shapechange to temporarily return to its human form, procreate, then go back to his usual life a a Lich?

No. He's still an undead and the only undead capable of procreation with humanoids and the like are vampires who have fed a lot recently (which most likely means the vampire is male, because females would constantly need to be fed during pregnancy).

[Glimbur]

Resurrection says
You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed The trick is "destroying" a lich, which might require smashing its phylactery depending on how you read the entry on liches. I personally think you would need to break the phylactery and kill the lich, then rez it.

Polymorph is probably enough to be able to make babies, as it changes your type. Weird templates often come from magic, there are probably some suitable ones in Libris Mortis.

[Morph Bark]

Polymorph is probably enough to be able to make babies, as it changes your type. Weird templates often come from magic, there are probably some suitable ones in Libris Mortis.

Does Polymorph give an undead or construct creature a Con score though? If not, I don't think it would work.

[Alleran]

Weird templates often come from magic, there are probably some suitable ones in Libris Mortis.
Lich-loved had to come from somewhere, after all.

[Grendus]

No. He's still an undead and the only undead capable of procreation with humanoids and the like are vampires who have fed a lot recently (which most likely means the vampire is male, because females would constantly need to be fed during pregnancy).

...


Sounds like a good plot hook. A lich kidnapping townsfolk at an alarming rate to keep his pregnant vampire cohort from becoming too undead to sustain the baby. Gotta admit, the players would never see it coming.

As for the subject at hand - yes, True Resurrection would work if the lich was willing to be destroyed first. Alternatively, any Polymorph spell that changes your creature type would allow him to procreate, though I suspect a template would be involved somewhere (the Crystal Keep pdf's had a few templates that came from undead procreating with the living, IIRC).

[Fouredged Sword]

3.5 yes - you get a con score but no extra hp
pf i don't think so.

[peacenlove]

Does Polymorph give an undead or construct creature a Con score though? If not, I don't think it would work.

Yes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm)


The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

Also


Duration: 1 min./level (D)

So if you are quick you can also procreate with polymorph. However what would a half lich use for phylactery? :smallamused:

[Yorrin]

Dragon 313 has half-undead templates for Ghosts, Zombies, Skeletons, Ghouls, Ghasts, Lacedons, and Vampires. So evidently a Con score has nothing to do with procreation. Or even a corporeal body, though the article admits Fetch (half-ghosts) are a "logistical nightmare."

[Analytica]

See the Emerald Legion's use of the "spark of life" spell for temporary fertility in zombies. Should work on liches as well, assuming the proper fleshy bits are made to be present for as long as needed.

Two wishes in succession can raise someone, regardless of most circumstances. True Resurrection works as well. Better make then contingent...

[Morph Bark]

Yes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm)

The undead and construct types both say they don't have Con scores though. As far as I figure, that specific rule would override the general Polymorph rule. (Hence also why creatures of other types cannot Polymorph into undead or constructs.)


Dragon 313 has half-undead templates for Ghosts, Zombies, Skeletons, Ghouls, Ghasts, Lacedons, and Vampires. So evidently a Con score has nothing to do with procreation. Or even a corporeal body, though the article admits Fetch (half-ghosts) are a "logistical nightmare."

Apparently, according to Dragon you also don't need to have any necessary "parts" to procreate. (An incorporeal creature could at least still possess someone or the partner could become incorporeal as well.)


EDIT: However, if the corpse receives a gentle repose spell immediately upon death (or undeath), and it is kept up, it could work.

[Getsugaru]

Double Polymorph into the same thing, i.e. Polymorph into x and as x Polymorph into x, and it becomes permanent.

[peacenlove]

The undead and construct types both say they don't have Con scores though. As far as I figure, that specific rule would override the general Polymorph rule. (Hence also why creatures of other types cannot Polymorph into undead or constructs.)
EDIT: all wrong :smallannoyed:

Target: Willing living creature touched
I must learn how to read. However Shapechange (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shapechange.htm) ignores that limitation AND lasts longer so those pesky biofiliac liches can procreate should they desire to.


Double Polymorph into the same thing, i.e. Polymorph into x and as x Polymorph into x, and it becomes permanent.

You mean polymorph any object right? Polymorph does not have this ability.

[Morph Bark]

Bolded types can naturaly procreate with each other.
You gain the chosen type so undead rules no longer cover you. So no immunity to criticals or mind affecting etc.
Undead becomes humanoid (for example) so he picks up a constitution score. Also polymorph assumes standard array of ability scores before racial modifiers, so a lich polymorphed (with his own consent) into a human would have 10-11 constitution.

Now that you explicitly bold it like that, I see what you mean. However, by RAW, that would also mean undead creatures cannot Polymorph themselves, as they turn into "another form of living creature".

Personally I hate RAW, but there you have it.

[Adindra]

Immunities (ex): Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves) and mind-affecting attacks.


i opened up my mm1 and just typed it right from the book

[Fouredged Sword]

Following the chain of statements

Undead can breed if they have gental repost cast on them.
Otherwise they can't becuse they have no con score.
They also can't polymorph becuse polymorh specifies living creatures.
Litches can polymorph becuse they are specificly stated as beingable to do so.

Therefor a litch could polymorph into a person and procreate.
Corporial undead can be POA'd into freash versions of themselves to procreate.(turned into what that where just after death, still undead)

[Morph Bark]

Immunities (ex): Liches have immunity to cold, electricity, polymorph (though they can use polymorph effects on themselves) and mind-affecting attacks.


i opened up my mm1 and just typed it right from the book

Polymorph effects =/= Polymorph. The specific spell Polymorph cannot be used on a lich, but certain other spells of the Polymorph subschool may (or may not, depending on their own specific description).

[Dr.Epic]

Kill the lich, and use a resurrection spell.

[OrzhvoPatriarch]

Yes, using that one artifact or magic ritual created by the DM for that purpose to advance the story.

[Drachasor]

I'd say a limited wish would be sufficient (this is weaker than a clone spell).

[SoHardToRegiste]

This is all very interesting. I didn't think the living dead could be so fertile :D

I'm curious about the undead hybrid flavor cooked up by Dragon and Libris Mortis.

In any case, it seems I have overestimated the difficulty in undoing one's lichdom.

[Rossebay]

Actually, a Lich's body is treated as 'alive' for roleplaying purposes like that. As long as a Lich continues to feed, its body is sustained. Of course, the body of a lich is sort of like a puppet in that sense. They don't really feel the damage done to them by anything (hence obscene DR and their two immunities), so as long as they body can possibly keep living, it does. Once the body dies, though, it stays dead.

That's the usual take I've found on it, and by that logic they could procreate if they'd kept proper care of their living body. You may want to consult your DM on his approach to Lichdom, but the general consensus (and the line of thought that Pathfinder adopted) is given above.

[darksolitaire]

There is a goddess in the Book of Bad Latin, Evening Glory. She is known as the Deathless Beauty and the Eternal Lover. Her portfolios are love, beauty, and immortality trough undeath (http://romanticallyapocalyptic.com/).

So, undead can love too. :smallbiggrin:

[Jack_Simth]

Per the Undead Type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType):

Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.(Emphasis added)

If you apply the True Resurrection spell directly to the Lich, you don't even need to find the Phylactery....

[TheRinni]

Would those offspring be 100% normal humans or would they have some weird template?
So if you are quick you can also procreate with polymorph. However what would a half lich use for phylactery?
This strikes me as particularly curious. Would the offspring of a Lich need a phylactery? In fact, would he be undead at all? If he used some sort of polymorph/alterself ability/spell to become a human and mate with another human, would his genetic material be human - thus producing a purely human child?

[Ekul]

A quick note- the half undeads (including ghost) don't procreate, the mother becomes one before delivering the baby. I still don't get the skeleton one, but still.

[Morph Bark]

Actually, a Lich's body is treated as 'alive' for roleplaying purposes like that. As long as a Lich continues to feed, its body is sustained. Of course, the body of a lich is sort of like a puppet in that sense. They don't really feel the damage done to them by anything (hence obscene DR and their two immunities), so as long as they body can possibly keep living, it does. Once the body dies, though, it stays dead.

That's the usual take I've found on it, and by that logic they could procreate if they'd kept proper care of their living body. You may want to consult your DM on his approach to Lichdom, but the general consensus (and the line of thought that Pathfinder adopted) is given above.

No matter how much you feed a corpse, the lich would continue to rot. Hence why you need gentle repose to prevent that. One might also easily argue that without a heartbeat to pump the blood around the other organs won't function either, which would include the gonads. Hence why vampires could logically procreate, as they still have working hearts to pump around the blood they drink.

[Reaver225]

Per the Undead Type (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType):
(Emphasis added)

If you apply the True Resurrection spell directly to the Lich, you don't even need to find the Phylactery....

And if it weren't for the "has to willingly return" we'd have liches screaming for 10 minutes as adventurers shackle them in adamantium and hack away at them to stop spellcasting while the cleric casts true ressurection because they can't find the cleverly phylactery.

[Jack_Simth]

And if it weren't for the "has to willingly return" we'd have liches screaming for 10 minutes as adventurers shackle them in adamantium and hack away at them to stop spellcasting while the cleric casts true ressurection because they can't find the cleverly phylactery.
Well, now, that's when you get into an interesting rules quirk.

A golem is affected differently by certain spells, as part of it's magic immunity. Electricity damage, for instance, heals a Flesh golem (mostly for the "It's Alive!" moments). Normally, Lightning Bolt injures and kills things. For a Flesh Golem, it's a helpful effect.

In the case of Resurrection, the normal effect is as follows:

This spell functions like raise dead, except that you are able to restore life and complete strength to any deceased creature.

The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.) The creature can have been dead no longer than 10 years per caster level.

Upon completion of the spell, the creature is immediately restored to full hit points, vigor, and health, with no loss of prepared spells. However, the subject loses one level, or 2 points of Constitution if the subject was 1st level. (If this reduction would bring its Con to 0 or lower, it can’t be resurrected). This level loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means.

You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. You cannot resurrect someone who has died of old age. Constructs, elementals, outsiders, and undead creatures can’t be resurrected. (emphasis added)

The undead type, though, has something different to say:

Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.(emphasis added)

At first glance, they seem to be in contradiction. So which "wins"?

My take? Undead have their souls trapped in their forms. When you try True Resurrection (which requires no part of the body at all!) while the Lich is away, nothing happens (soul unavailable). When you try True Resurrection directly on the lich, you get the living person back (soul is right there). It's as consistent as anything is likely to get with D&D.

[Rossebay]

No matter how much you feed a corpse, the lich would continue to rot. Hence why you need gentle repose to prevent that. One might also easily argue that without a heartbeat to pump the blood around the other organs won't function either, which would include the gonads. Hence why vampires could logically procreate, as they still have working hearts to pump around the blood they drink.

It depends on how the DM rules the character in question becomes a lich. Some may rule that the ceremony doesn't kill the body, it only binds the soul somewhere else and changes the mystical way that the body runs.

Others may rule that the lich "dies" in the process, which would unavoidably cause their bodies to die off.

[Lappy9000]

...I don't understand this game sometimes.

[Zale]

...I don't understand this game sometimes.

Likewise.

I'm failing to understand why people feel the need to debate about the reproductive ability of an undead magic-user.

:smalleek:

[Reluctance]

It depends on how the DM rules the character in question becomes a lich. Some may rule that the ceremony doesn't kill the body, it only binds the soul somewhere else and changes the mystical way that the body runs.

Others may rule that the lich "dies" in the process, which would unavoidably cause their bodies to die off.

Undead == undead. They're very clearly described as being magically animated corpses. "living undead" is as much of a contradiction in terms than bludgeoning lightning damage.


Likewise.

I'm failing to understand why people feel the need to debate about the reproductive ability of an undead magic-user.

:smalleek:

I think the OP's intent was for the lich to reintroduce his seed into the bloodline every now and then. Personally I'd go for some custom baby-warping spell, just for the creep factor, but that's just me.

[darksolitaire]

Anyway, Lich can still be only resurrected if it wants to be resurrected. Other conditions do not remove this requirement.