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Ardantis
2011-08-20, 05:17 PM
I finally finished it! Here is my official Alternate Fighter class build.

Thanks to Draz for "Veteran's Grit," and thanks to everyone who contributed on the last thread to give me ideas! Now let's tear it apart.

Alignment: any.

Hit Die: d10.

Class Skills: The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (architecture and engineering) (Int), Knowledge (local) (Int), Perform (weapon drill) (Cha), Profession (soldier) (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).


Skill Points at 1st Level: (4+Int modifier) x4.

Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+Int modifier.

Level
Base Attack
Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special

1st +1 +2 +0 +0 Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Feat Mastery, Bonus Feat
2nd +2 +3 +0 +0 Bonus feat
3rd +3 +3 +1 +1 Reduced Nonproficiency Penalties -1
4th +4 +4 +1 +1 Reduced Nonproficiency Penalties -2, Bonus Feat
5th +5 +4 +1 +1 Reduced Nonproficiency Penalties -3
6th +6/+1 +5 +2 +2 Exotic Weapon Proficiency (all), Improvised Weapon Proficiency, Bonus Feat
7th +7/+2 +5 +2 +2 Improvisational Aptitude
8th +8/+3 +6 +2 +2 Bonus feat
9th +9/+4 +6 +3 +3 Mobile Full Attack
10th +10/+5 +7 +3 +3 Bonus feat
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +3 +3 Mettle
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +4 +4 Bonus feat
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +4 +4 Veteran's grit
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +4 +4 Bonus feat
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +5 +5 Improved Opportunity, Combat Terrain Proficiency
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +5 +5 Bonus feat
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +5 Increased Opportunity
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +6 Bonus feat
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +6 Ignore Hardness
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +6 Slay, Bonus feat

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats

A fighter gains bonus feats as per the fighter class table. For each level, he may take any feat designated as a fighter bonus feat, or he may instead choose any three fighter bonus feats from the Player’s Handbook I (3.5). If the fighter decides to choose three, he gains one for which he qualifies immediately, the second for which he qualifies two fighter levels later, and the third for which he qualifies two fighter levels after that. Should the fighter not qualify for the second and third feat he has chosen at the time he would normally gain it, he instead gains the feat when he qualifies for it.

Any class which grants access to fighter bonus feats stacks with levels of fighter for determining access to previously chosen PHB feats.

Improved Unarmed Strike

At 1st level, the fighter gains Improved Unarmed Strike, regardless of whether or not he qualifies.

Weapon Feat Mastery

The fighter has a special relationship with the feats Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization. Weapon Focus grants +1 to attack with the chosen weapon plus an additional +1 for each five levels of fighter. Greater Weapon Focus grants +1 to attack and replaces the +1 every five levels from Weapon Focus with +1 for every three levels of fighter. Weapon Specialization grants +1 damage per two levels of fighter, and Greater Weapon Specialization replaces this bonus with +1 damage per level of fighter.

Note that other classes or prestige classes which grant or require these feats stack with levels in fighter to determine feat benefits.

Reduced Nonproficiency Penalties

At 3rd level, the fighter reduces the penalties associated with wielding a weapon with which he is not proficient. The penalties are reduced by one per level at 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

Exotic Weapon Profieciency (all)

At 5th level, the fighter gains proficiency with all exotic weapons.

Improvisational Aptitude

At level 7, the fighter may apply any feat or class ability to all weapons of the same type (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, ranged) even if the ability is normally restricted to a single weapon (Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Lightning Maces).

Mobile Full Attack

At 9th level, the fighter may make a full attack as a standard action rather than a full-round action.

Mettle

At 11th level, the fighter gains Mettle as the feat.

Veteran's Grit [Ex]

At 13th level, the fighter is able to partially shrug off many negative effects. When he is subjected to one of the following conditions, replace his condition with the condition one cell to the right.
Condition
... Becomes
... Becomes
... Becomes

Blown away Knocked Down Checked none
Cowering Frightened Shaken none
Panicked Frightened Shaken none
Paralyzed Stunned Dazed Dazzled
Fascinated Dazed Dazzled none
Blinded Dazzled none
Nauseated Sickened none
Exhausted Fatigued none
Slowed Entangled
Ability Drained Ability Damaged


Improved Opportunity

At 15th level, a fighter threatens an area equal to his speed plus his reach. When an opponent incurs an attack of opportunity, the fighter may, as an immediate action, move to a space in which his weapon threatens the opponent before making his attack of opportunity. After this ability has been used for the turn, the fighter threatens his normal area. The fighter incurs any attacks of opportunity his movement would normally incur during this move, unless he only moves five feet.

With ranged weapons, a fighter threatens an area equal to his range for the purposes of making attacks of opportunity. He still incurs attacks of opportunity for making a ranged attack in a threatened square.

Combat Terrain Proficiency

At 15th level, a fighter ignores the penalty from difficult terrain in combat. This ability does not apply to overland travel.

Increased Opportunity

At 17th level, opponents in the fighter’s threatened area incur attacks of opportunity for attacking the fighter or his allies.

Ignore Hardness

At 19th level, the fighter ignores nonmagical hardness and DR.

Slay
At 20th level, the fighter may, for each of his attacks in a full attack or as part of a charge, attempt to slay the opponent. For each successful hit, the opponent must make a Fortitude save equal to half of the damage dealt, ignoring multipliers for a critical hit or precision damage.

This effect may be applied once per day for each 10 levels of fighter.

Edit: How do you guys get those nice tables to work?

Dusk Eclipse
2011-08-20, 05:19 PM
Shouldn't this be in the Homebrew board?

Ardantis
2011-08-20, 05:33 PM
Maybe. I used this board to flesh out the ideas for improvement, though, so I think it works here, too. It's a 3.5 build.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-08-20, 05:35 PM
No, sorry; but no. This is not a build is a complete rewrite of the Fighter class, so I think it should be moved to homebrew, ask a mod to do it. I am sure they won't mind.

Ardantis
2011-08-20, 05:40 PM
I may well. How do I do that, and how do I convert all of my level tables to handy dandy charts?

Dusk Eclipse
2011-08-20, 05:45 PM
I can't help you with that; but I think there is an sticky for that in the Board and Site issues forum

herrhauptmann
2011-08-20, 05:47 PM
If you have this moved to the homebrew board (ask a mod to move it), you should add PEACH (please evaluate and critique). It seems to be a magical phrase, without it, people seem less likely to look at it. (As determined by me with a set of classes I was trying to create a while back)
Table:

{table=Head]Level |Base Attack Bonus |Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1|+1|+2| +0|+0|Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Feat Mastery, Bonus Feat
2|+2|+3| +0| +0| Bonus feat
3|+3 |+3| +1| +1| Reduced Nonproficiency Penalties -1
4|+4 |+4| +1| +1| Reduced Nonproficiency Penalties -2, Bonus Feat
5|+5|+4| +1| +1| Reduced Nonproficiency Penalties -3
6|+6/1| +5| +2| +2| Exotic Weapon Proficiency (all), Improvised Weapon Proficiency, Bonus Feat
7|+7/2| +5| +2| +2| Improvisational Aptitude
8|+8/3| +6| +2| +2| Bonus feat
9|+9/4| +6| +3| +3| Mobile Full Attack
10|+10/5|+7| +3| +3| Bonus feat
11|+11/6/1| +7| +3| +3| Mettle
12|+12/7/2| +8| +4| +4| Bonus feat
13|+13/8/3| +8| +4| +4| Veteran's grit
14|+14/9/4| +9| +4| +4| Bonus feat
15|+15/10/5|+9| +5| +5| Improved Opportunity, Combat Terrain Proficiency
16|+16/11/6/1| +10| +5| +5| Bonus feat
17|+17/12/7/2| +10| +5| +5| Increased Opportunity
18|+18/13/8/3| +11| +6| +6| Bonus feat
19|+19/14/9/4| +11| +6| +6| Ignore Hardness
20|+20/15/10/5|+12|+6| +6| Slay, Bonus feat
[/table]
Class Features
All of the following are class features of the fighter.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency

A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).

Bonus Feats

A fighter gains bonus feats as per the fighter class table. For each level, he may take any feat designated as a fighter bonus feat, or he may instead choose any three fighter bonus feats from the Player’s Handbook I (3.5). If the fighter decides to choose three, he gains one for which he qualifies immediately, the second for which he qualifies two fighter levels later, and the third for which he qualifies two fighter levels after that. Should the fighter not qualify for the second and third feat he has chosen at the time he would normally gain it, he instead gains the feat when he qualifies for it.

Any class which grants access to fighter bonus feats stacks with levels of fighter for determining access to previously chosen PHB feats.

Improved Unarmed Strike

At 1st level, the fighter gains Improved Unarmed Strike, regardless of whether or not he qualifies.

Weapon Feat Mastery

The fighter has a special relationship with the feats Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization. Weapon Focus grants +1 to attack with the chosen weapon plus an additional +1 for each five levels of fighter. Greater Weapon Focus grants +1 to attack and replaces the +1 every five levels from Weapon Focus with +1 for every three levels of fighter. Weapon Specialization grants +1 damage per two levels of fighter, and Greater Weapon Specialization replaces this bonus with +1 damage per level of fighter.

Note that other classes or prestige classes which grant or require these feats stack with levels in fighter to determine feat benefits.

Reduced Nonproficiency Penalties

At 3rd level, the fighter reduces the penalties associated with wielding a weapon with which he is not proficient. The penalties are reduced by one per level at 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

Exotic Weapon Profieciency (all)

At 5th level, the fighter gains proficiency with all exotic weapons.

Improvisational Aptitude

At level 7, the fighter may apply any feat or class ability to all weapons of the same type (bludgeoning, slashing, piercing, ranged) even if the ability is normally restricted to a single weapon (Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, Lightning Maces).

Mobile Full Attack

At 9th level, the fighter may make a full attack as a standard action rather than a full-round action.

Mettle

At 11th level, the fighter gains Mettle as the feat.

Veteran's Grit [Ex] You'll have to alter this one yourself, I've no idea what it's supposed to look like

At 13th level, the fighter is able to partially shrug off many negative effects. When he is subjected to one of the following conditions, replace his condition with the condition one cell to the right.
Condition
... Becomes
... Becomes
... Becomes

Blown away Knocked Down Checked none
Cowering Frightened Shaken none
Panicked Frightened Shaken none
Paralyzed Stunned Dazed Dazzled
Fascinated Dazed Dazzled none
Blinded Dazzled none
Nauseated Sickened none
Exhausted Fatigued none
Slowed Entangled
Ability Drained Ability Damaged


Improved Opportunity

At 15th level, a fighter threatens an area equal to his speed plus his reach. When an opponent incurs an attack of opportunity, the fighter may, as an immediate action, move to a space in which his weapon threatens the opponent before making his attack of opportunity. After this ability has been used for the turn, the fighter threatens his normal area. The fighter incurs any attacks of opportunity his movement would normally incur during this move, unless he only moves five feet.

With ranged weapons, a fighter threatens an area equal to his range for the purposes of making attacks of opportunity. He still incurs attacks of opportunity for making a ranged attack in a threatened square.

Combat Terrain Proficiency

At 15th level, a fighter ignores the penalty from difficult terrain in combat. This ability does not apply to overland travel.

Increased Opportunity

At 17th level, opponents in the fighter’s threatened area incur attacks of opportunity for attacking the fighter or his allies.

Ignore Hardness

At 19th level, the fighter ignores nonmagical hardness and DR.

Slay
At 20th level, the fighter may, for each of his attacks in a full attack or as part of a charge, attempt to slay the opponent. For each successful hit, the opponent must make a Fortitude save equal to half of the damage dealt, ignoring multipliers for a critical hit or precision damage.

This effect may be applied once per day for each 10 levels of fighter.



Critiques:

I think the reduced nonproficiency penalties should be spread out a bit. Most classes have some sort of 'progression' for these types of penalties or reduction thereof, even if that progression doesn't make much sense.
Increased Opportunity:
Perhaps shift it to just when the enemy attacks the fighters allies. You want to make the fighter a tank, part of that includes punishing the enemy for ignoring the fighter. Plus, if the fighter is making that many AOOs, a few mooks could get him to waste his AOOs, then the big bad saunters up and slaughters everyone else.
Perhaps give the fighter some sort of point pool. At low levels, it's 1 free AOO per round. Then increment it as the fighter levels. This pool is in addition to the AOOs that a fighter gets as normal (combat reflexes + high dex). Without letting it stack with combat reflexes, you've turned this into either a useless ability, or one that requires combat reflexes (which I don't think you give as a free ability).
Ignore hardness
What does it work on? DR 5/silver? DR 5/Lawful? DR 3/-?
Combat Terrain Proficiency
As written, I can't help but imagine two munchkin fighters "sparring" as they traverse their way through swamps and over mountains, at full speed.
Improved Opportunity
Not a fan of this one. It's pretty much: I've charged and taken my turn. Now it's your turn, and you move. I run over and hit you before you finish your move.
Even if it's a 1/round, it seems a little odd to me.
Improvisational Attitude
You're pretty much just recreating the rules for Weapon Groups. I think they're in Unearthed Arcana, perhaps the srd as well.

Greenish
2011-08-20, 05:47 PM
You report the original post. There's the triangle with exclamation mark down below your portrait, next to the "online/offline" light. Click it.

Here's your table:
{TABLE]Level |Base Attack Bonus|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Feat Mastery, Bonus Feat
2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Bonus feat
3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Reduced Nonproficiency Penalties -1
4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Reduced Nonproficiency Penalties -2, Bonus Feat
5th|+5|+4|+1|+1|Reduced Nonproficiency Penalties -3
6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Exotic Weapon Proficiency (all), Improvised Weapon Proficiency, Bonus Feat
7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Improvisational Aptitude
8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Bonus feat
9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3|Mobile Full Attack
10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Bonus feat
11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Mettle
12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Bonus feat
13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4|Veteran's grit
14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Bonus feat
15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Improved Opportunity, Combat Terrain Proficiency
16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Bonus feat
17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5|Increased Opportunity
18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Bonus feat
19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Ignore Hardness
20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Slay, Bonus feat[/TABLE]

Runestar
2011-08-20, 07:07 PM
I like it. The abilities seem to fully capture the flavour of what a fighter ought to be capable of. Though slay seems pretty weak as a capstone. Even when you are dealing 50 damage per hit, the DC is a crummy 25, most monsters will make that with ease.

Ardantis
2011-08-20, 07:49 PM
Thanks for the help with the tables. I may well move this over to the homebrew, but I'll take what critique I can get from here for now.

Herrhauptmann~

I really dislike AoO "points" and other ways to mess with Combat Reflexes. I don't give it, although it's pretty likely to be taken with the way my bonus feats work.

Fighters are not tanks. They haven't been since the beginning of 3.0, and even then, they were terrible at it. Giving the AoO only for attacking allies would be a tank "thing." I'm merely looking to give the fighter access to lots of AoOs at high levels, something he should be taking massive advantage of. Note the ability is not accessible until level 17, and should be fairly ridiculous. It synergizes with Improved Opportunity by allowing the fighter to "come to the rescue" of nearby allies by using an AoO to hop over and lay the hurt on threats. This is what melee should do- damage threats.

I don't know about Unearthed Arcana, but I'm trying to make it so fighters can combine feats in unusual ways with different equipment. For example, Brutal Strike + Snap Kick + Roundhouse Kick means a bludgeoning fighter makes a lot of attacks a turn which can each cause sicken, using either a big hammer or his bare hands.

Runestar~

Thank you for the compliment. I am also extremely upset with the capstone for the same reasons, although with the amended Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization, the fighter should be achieving significant damage per hit. Should I make the attack DC equal to damage dealt? I was considering that, but worried that it would be too high. Then again, what is "too high" against Epic level threats?

I considered a mage slayer ability, but that is too restricted, and also considered a "buff" like Barbarian Rage, but it seemed derivative and kind of stupid. I'd like to give the fighter a capstone "attack," but still can't figure out what kind to give him.

137beth
2011-08-20, 08:11 PM
It still seems rather underpowered. Using 4 feats for +1 damage/level and +1 attack/3 levels ain't much. Also, how often are nonproficiency penalty reductions going to come into play, since you'll mostly be using your primary weapon?
...That is, until the improvements to AoOs start rolling in, and the ignoring DR. Perhaps it would be better to spread the powerful features out more, rather than keeping it weak until high levels where it suddenly becomes quite powerful.

Runestar
2011-08-20, 09:11 PM
Also, now that I have had some time to think over it, I am not really comfortable with the ability to full-attack as a standard action. I know casters (and to a certain extent, martial adepts) do this, but I believe implementing it like manyshot (where the more attacks you make, the greater the attack penalties incurred) might be a better alternative. This way, attacks retain some degree of planning (do you want more attacks but each is less likely to hit, or fewer more accurate strikes?).

Improvisational aptitude is just begging to be broken, such as keen falchions with lightning mace. :smallamused:


Also, how often are nonproficiency penalty reductions going to come into play, since you'll mostly be using your primary weapon?

The bigger question is since the fighter is already proficient with martial weapons, and this extends to exotic weapons at 5th lv, what other weapons would apply? This weapon would be worthless! :smallconfused:

Ardantis
2011-08-20, 09:16 PM
137Ben

You called it underpowered! I love you, man.

But in all seriousness...

From levels 1-high, the character gains a number of powerful abilities:

- 3 PHB feats per Bonus Feat. While the PHB feats are relatively weak, they are the prerequisites for a LOT of other feats.

- The reduced nonproficiency penalties are designed to lead into Exotic Weapon Proficiency (all) and Improvised Weapon Proficiency. A fighter is potentially deadly with each and every item he holds. Weak?

- They can apply feats to weapons they're not normally allowed to. For example, Weapon Focus (longsword) applies to all slashing weapons, so it's not just "your primary weapon." The character is designed to use lots of different weapons, or be able to use whatever he comes across (within your damage type, unless you take Focus and Specialization for multiple types). That means that the character may switch it up in combat to gain different advantages from Exotic or other weapons, and will be more likely to be able to wield that awesome weapon of awesomeness the party encounters.

- Full Attack as a standard (lvl 9)... maybe fighters should get this anyways...

An attack bonus every three levels with every slashing weapon seems pretty good for the price of a feat or two. Do you think that it should apply to all weapons, instead? If so, it should probably just be a class feature.

How do you feel that these abilities are underpowered? I appreciate your honest opinion. I was, in all honesty, trying to keep dippers from getting too big a boost from the first four levels of the class. Maybe this kept me gunshy until higher levels. I hope not.

Runestar-

I really do believe that fighters should be able to full-attack as a standard action at higher levels.

Improvisational Aptitude IS begging to be broken, but I was aware of people using Aptitude Weapon enchantment on kukris with Lightning Maces, which is why I made the feats only cross over to weapons of the same damage type (with the rationalization that the powers would be more complementary). What I've discovered is that bludgeoning weapons (with their lower crit range) have a lot of abilities which add status effects or extra attacks, while slashing weapons tend to have feats which add flat damage. Piercing weapons have less feats, although I suppose the archery feats count (although those apply to all bows anyways).

I WANT fighters to have an ability which can be optimized and offers a lot of potential in this vein.

Greenish
2011-08-20, 09:27 PM
A fighter is potentially deadly with each and every item he holds. Weak?Yeah, well, that's just more of the same old "poking enemies with sharp stuff". :smallamused:

Draz74
2011-08-20, 09:28 PM
Thanks to Draz for "Veteran's Grit," and thanks to everyone who contributed on the last thread to give me ideas! Now let's tear it apart.

Heh, wish I could say it was an original idea when I used it. I'd seen it on other Fighter fixes before mine -- I think it was most closely based on Bears With Lasers' fix.

But it looks like you also cribbed the Class Skills list from my Fighter fix, and that, I will take credit for.

herrhauptmann
2011-08-20, 11:09 PM
I suggested the AOO pool for one main reason:
Without combat reflexes, that ability is essentially useless. It's 1 AOO per round.
You're pretty much telling someone, if they want to take advantage of a class ability, they have to take combat reflexes.

Also, the level 15 ability: Is that a charging attack? A move+single attack? Move+full attack?
For the ranged fighters, they 'threaten their range,' do you mean one range increment? So 10ft for thrown weapons? Or the max distance they can shoot/throw with their ranged weapon? So 5 range increments for thrown weapons, and 10 increments for things like bows and crossbows?

Anyways, those are my opinions, and where I think you could use some clarification. Take them or leave them.