The Shrieking Terror! Optimizing a Statless Wonder

[Urpriest]

A Ghost Brute Shrieker has nonabilities in Str, Dex, Con, and Int. It cannot make attack rolls, and takes -5 to Initiative. It has Wis 2 and Cha 9. It cannot have skills or feats. It has CR 3.

What can we do to make this thing worth it's CR?

Rules:

Must keep all four nonabilities
Can add templates, class levels (unless this is illegal for Int -, not sure of the applicable rules), even gear
Bonus points if you manage this with the lowest Wis and Cha possible


Allez Optimizer!

[Zaq]

I don't have a source on hand, but I'm pretty sure that you need INT 3 or higher to take class levels. Can anyone dig up a source to confirm or deny this?

[RaggedAngel]

Er.

What book is this in? What can it actually do? It's hard to optimize when all we know is what it can't do.

[Urpriest]

Er.

What book is this in? What can it actually do? It's hard to optimize when all we know is what it can't do.

Shrieker is in the Monster Manual and/or SRD. Ghost Brute was initially published in Savage Species and updated in Libris Mortis.

[RaggedAngel]

Hm. The thing about the Shrieker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fungus.htm) is that it doesn't hurt anything, it just makes a very loud noise that attracts other creatures. Additionally, it lives amongst Violet Fungi, which are actual dangers. A Ghost Brute Shrieker fungus is deadly because it can't be killed easily, so it just sits there, telling anything and everything nearby that there's a tasty treat waiting to get eaten.

[Urpriest]

Hm. The thing about the Shrieker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fungus.htm) is that it doesn't hurt anything, it just makes a very loud noise that attracts other creatures. Additionally, it lives amongst Violet Fungi, which are actual dangers. A Ghost Brute Shrieker fungus is deadly because it can't be killed easily, so it just sits there, telling anything and everything nearby that there's a tasty treat waiting to get eaten.

But the same thing can be done with a CR 1 Alarm trap, or CR 1 caster who can cast Alarm and also do something else. It's hardly a CR 3 threat.

Come on people, what can we do with this?

[Zaq]

Hmmmm. We can't get Ghostwalk involved, can we?

[Urpriest]

Hmmmm. We can't get Ghostwalk involved, can we?

I had the impression that Ghostwalk ghosts aren't really the same thing as real ghosts. The point of making this guy a Ghost Brute is to get rid of its Con score, and AFAIK Ghostwalk ghosts have Con scores. Still, if there are interesting options in there I'm all ears.

[awa]

it can take a blood curdling howl but with a dc of 10 it wont mean much its int is to low for feats or classes.
if we can give it gear give it an amber amulet of vermin, large scorpion which once a day lets it summon a cr 3 large scorpion
cr 3 right their

[0nimaru]

I don't see why you'd bother trying to do something legitimate with classes or templates. If you want to justify it's CR, just Brew something to further it's purpose onto it.

It makes noise and attracts dangerous things at base, roll with that and upgrade.
Give it Solid Fog or Entangle (Some racial DC boost) so that it can hold the tasty treats nearby.

You could accomplish this with Alarms and other spells, but I don't think the idea of the Shrieker is as a defensive emplacement. It sits in a bog or cavern, and symbiotically assists nearby non-caster mobs.

[awa]

i think it's just a thought experiment so just making up power would completely defeat the purpose

[mootoall]

Needs moar Trill.

[WinWin]

symbiotic creature template. Trying to find a creature with Dex - for the shrieker to plug in to is pretty difficult.

Go the other way to try and find a decent guest, you have to make sure it has int - and a low enough charisma to qualify for the ghost brute template.

Only thing I could find would be applying the Unseelie fey template to a formian queen, then the symbiotic creature template using the shrieker as a guest.

Write it off as an infection that killed the queen then spontaneously animated her as a ghost. End up with the same problem of having a creature under powered for it's CR, unless you buff charisma.

[mootoall]

symbiotic creature template. Trying to find a creature with Dex - for the shrieker to plug in to is pretty difficult.

Go the other way to try and find a decent guest, you have to make sure it has int - and a low enough charisma to qualify for the ghost brute template.

Only thing I could find would be applying the Unseelie fey template to a formian queen, then the symbiotic creature template using the shrieker as a guest.

Write it off as an infection that killed the queen then spontaneously animated her as a ghost. End up with the same problem of having a creature under powered for it's CR, unless you buff charisma.

Is an Elemental Wyrd a Dex - creature?

[Urpriest]

it can take a blood curdling howl but with a dc of 10 it wont mean much its int is to low for feats or classes.
if we can give it gear give it an amber amulet of vermin, large scorpion which once a day lets it summon a cr 3 large scorpion
cr 3 right their

Most such items are command-word based, though, and this thing can't talk, just shriek. Can an Int - creature activate something like that?

I do like the idea of using symbiotic...I think adding a useful enough guest would be the best option...we just need something with useful but not ability-based powers.

[CockroachTeaParty]

This reminds me of Metroid Prime for the Gamecube... Remember those invisible, floating platforms that you could only see with the X-ray vision? There were a lot of those in the area with the giant mutated mushrooms...

[Urpriest]

Symbiotic won't work, they have minimum Int 3. We could have them lose the Int again via another template I suppose. Come to think of it, Dex - is really the only one that you can't get with a template, in between Effigy and Ghost. It's a little tricky to get both though. Can a construct be a Phantom?

[WinWin]

The main issue with symbiont lies with the order of template stacking. Ghost Brute has a requirement of plant, animal or magical beast.

becoming a plant is fairly easy. Yellow musk creeper zombie template. Intelligence becomes 2 unless it was already lower. The Shrieker is normally ineligable for this template as it lacks a brain, this can be reconciled with other templates.

As ghost brute is being applied last, I would suggest YMCZ be applied second last. These 2 templates interact wierdly. Oddly, every time our ghostly fungus is destroyed, a yellow musk creeper will seed in an hour.

Other templates. Dustform. Any living corporeal creature. By itself, makes subject creature ineligable for GB and YMCZ, with Soulfused Construct, the subject is a living creature again. Unfortunately, this will raise the intelligence score to 3. The Arachnoid template would lower this back down to mindless, but then you would be applying an inherited template after aquired templates, technically possible though the use of spells like PaO, but otherwise not going to happen.

Another idea may be to place the Hivenest Monster template on the target creature. Only possible if the subject is of large size (see below). The bigger it is, the more swarms it can host.

Symbiont. Any two creatures of a short list. Includes fey and plant as allowable types. The fey and plant types can be bestowed on most creatures via the Unseelie Fey or Woodling inherited templates. Type changes to abberation. Main issue here is determining which creature is the host and which is the guest, as they have to be differing sizes. The dungeonbread template can also help here, by reducing the size of a creature.


Main issue with template stacking on a symbiotic creature is that there is no indication wher aquired templates effect both host and guest. I would assume the host is the 'base' creature, as it's attributes are referenced. Any subsequent template eligability should reference the host, but in a few cases you will want differing templates effecting the guest.

Interesting reading. Good study break. Now you're on your own.

[Urpriest]

Well we can switch ghost brute for ghost if we really need to apply this to an aberration, just need to buff the thing's charisma.

At this point I'm more concerned with things a creature with four nonabilities can do in combat. I'll take a look at Hivenest once I figure out where it is, but some sort of swarm might make a good base and/or symbiont. It would also want some way to hold things nearby though.

[Eurus]

Int -- means no feats or skills, so most of the obvious ways of giving it attack options aren't going to work. Although they are allowed bonus feats, hmm. I think it could also use spell-like-abilities, since there's nothing that says it can't. What about slapping Evolved Undead on it a few dozen times?

[Urpriest]

Int -- means no feats or skills, so most of the obvious ways of giving it attack options aren't going to work. Although they are allowed bonus feats, hmm. I think it could also use spell-like-abilities, since there's nothing that says it can't. What about slapping Evolved Undead on it a few dozen times?

Requires an intelligent undead. We'd have to turn it unintelligent again afterwards without killing off the special abilities.

[Eurus]

Requires an intelligent undead. We'd have to turn it unintelligent again afterwards without killing off the special abilities.

Ah, right. I don't have LM with me right now. Hmm... I still like the spell-like-abilities idea, it's just a matter of finding a template that doesn't specify intelligence.

[RedWarrior0]

Ghost Brute Monstrous Centipede Swarm, perhaps? That would be a hard thing to kill.

Edit: No, wait, that has a Dex score...

[Urpriest]

Ah, right. I don't have LM with me right now. Hmm... I still like the spell-like-abilities idea, it's just a matter of finding a template that doesn't specify intelligence.

Half-Fey can do it, their spell-likes are Wis or Cha-based and the template can be applied to mindless plants. A Ghost Brute Half-Fey Advanced Shrieker would be able to use sleep on people, then manifest on top of them. In order for it to actually be able to kill things we'd need a little extra though. If there's some way to give it Int - after it's been made symbiotic with a swarm with symbiotic creature, that would let it slowly kill anything in its space.

[Xtomjames]

Could we apply the Warlock class to this creature? It would seem to me the nature of the Warlock (Charisma based, naturally born with inherent magical power) could by pass the whole need for an Int score. It wouldn't have any other invocations but it could use the eldritch blast ability.

If we aren't limited to 3.5 but had access to the Munchinkin Manuals we could do some fun stuff with this, there are feats in them that don't require high Int scores (in some cases no Int score is better). We could make the Shrieking Terror an undead house plant shrieking terror. Still no Str, Dex, or Con, but a +4 to int (to later be removed). You could give it the feat I Can't See You (requires Int of 3 or less) where if it covers it's eyes it gains a +4 to it's hide check and it can hide in plain sight.

[RedWarrior0]

Could we apply the Warlock class to this creature? It would seem to me the nature of the Warlock (Charisma based, naturally born with inherent magical power) could by pass the whole need for an Int score. It wouldn't have any other invocations but it could use the eldritch blast ability.

Except that a) classes require an int score of 3 and b) How are we making a ranged touch attack with no dex score (not a dex score of 0, a nonability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities))?

[DeAnno]

Can we get an Antimagic field onto this thing somehow? Preferably cheaply? I think its going to have trouble being effective in combat on its own, but it could be a good supporter since with all those nonabilities its immune/50% miss to a lot of things, and we could add a whole ton of Plant HD at 4/CR to give it some hp I suppose (2*13 = 26 hp per CR, meh).

I think the problem isn't with the nonabilities, but the fact that Shriekers just aren't very useful.

EDIT: Elder Eidolon (Lords of Madness) is probably the best route we have to getting rid of con (it gets rid of int too, if we switch base creatures). Its only +3 CR, and we get immunity to magic and an insanity aura based on wis! Since we can add 4 HD for 1 CR, we can increase the DC of its aura by 2 per CR. An Elder Eidolon Shrieker is naturally CR 4, so at CR 20 it would have 66 Hit Dice, and with its Wis 11 from Elder-izing, it would have a DC 43 Insanity Aura, 381 hp, and immunity to magic.

The downside is the aura only goes 10 feet and it can't move, so it would still need some support, but I could at least picture it being useful.

EDIT2: Totally botched the hp by calcing at 20 HD, fixed it (wooo lots)

[RedWarrior0]

I think getting it to be an incorporeal swarm is the next part.

Another possibility for a 4-nonability creature exists, but only if there's a template that can make an intelligent construct mindless.

[mootoall]

Since we can add 4 HD for 1 CR, we can increase the DC of its aura by 2 per CR. An Elder Eidolon Shrieker is naturally CR 4, so at CR 20 it would have 66 Hit Dice, and with its Wis 11 from Elder-izing, it would have a DC 43 Insanity Aura, 381 hp, and immunity to magic.

Racial HD don't add stat boosts.

[DeAnno]

The Aura's DC is HD dependent. DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Wis mod. Wis is 11 due to applying the template, so 10 + 66/2 + 0 = 43.

[mootoall]

The Aura's DC is HD dependent. DC 10 + 1/2 HD + Wis mod. Wis is 11 due to applying the template, so 10 + 66/2 + 0 = 43.

Ooh. Didn't know that. Sexy.

[DeAnno]

I did some more research, and there's good news and bad news.

The good news is that it does actually gain a stat point per 4 advanced HD, as per here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm) under Ability Score Improvement (thanks to Ur-Priest's guide).

The bad news is that the Shrieker itself can only advance to 3HD total, and that Elder Eidolon's have Advancement -. Unfortunately, Ghost Brutes also have Advancement -, so by RAW we may have to go through some hoops to even be allowed to add hit dice to this thing. I'm currently researching along those lines.

[Eurus]

I think getting it to be an incorporeal swarm is the next part.

Another possibility for a 4-nonability creature exists, but only if there's a template that can make an intelligent construct mindless.

Apply Incarnate Construct to make it intelligent, then Effigy to make it mindless again? :smalltongue:

[CTrees]

Give it command based magic items. Lots of them. Have the command word for everything be shrieking in the manner of a shrieker.

Alt: Surround the shrieker with shrink item'd lava, burning oil+gunpowder/alchemist's fire, or similar. Again, command word, as set by the wizard who placed a few hundred castings worth shrunken items around our ghost brute shrieker, is shrieking. Kind of a one-shot, everything but our shrieker dies, but it's something.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Actually, I'd like to try and provide some sound amplification for this shrieker and see if we can get either Sound Burst or Shatter or something with it.

Can it use skills if it has no Int? I can see Intimidate-stacking coupled with some other things.

Perhaps apply a template that has Fear Aura? It requires no intellect to simply be a fearsome mushroom that inspires dread when one approaches. Make it lock you down, then alert anything in the area that it has something locked down here.

Combining it with something like brown mold which does area-effect cold damage is another option.

[subject42]

Apply Incarnate Construct to make it intelligent, then Effigy to make it mindless again? :smalltongue:

Incarnate construct also changes the type to Giant, so I don't think you could go back to effigy without levels in green star adept or something.

[RedWarrior0]

Ah well. Back to the undead shrieker, or whatever it is we're using.

[Cieyrin]

Actually, I'd like to try and provide some sound amplification for this shrieker and see if we can get either Sound Burst or Shatter or something with it.

Can it use skills if it has no Int? I can see Intimidate-stacking coupled with some other things.

Perhaps apply a template that has Fear Aura? It requires no intellect to simply be a fearsome mushroom that inspires dread when one approaches. Make it lock you down, then alert anything in the area that it has something locked down here.

Combining it with something like brown mold which does area-effect cold damage is another option.

No Int creatures have no skill points but I don't know whether that means no skill use at all, as constructs can still climb and jump. Unclear RAW area, that.

Brown Mold does nonlethal cold damage, IIRC, so it may not be the best option, especially given that it dies instantly if exposed to cold, which may not be desirable.

[Xtomjames]

The first thing I'm going to point out is that no where in the the core rule books does it say one must have an Int of 3 to have a class. It suggests that one have an Intelligence of 3 or higher and most humanoid creatures will have no less than an Int of 3, but this stringent rule that has been applied in this thread that one needs at least an Int of 3 to have class levels is bogus. There is no listed minimum intelligence required for any class except for spell casters that rely on it to have the knowledge to cast specific spells.

Secondly, In reply to the bit about my point of the Warlock. One does not need their own Dex score to make a ranged touch attack, it's just a plain old roll of a 20 sider to see if it hits or not against the target's touch AC. Since a Warlock's class is based on Charisma and no other ability score the class should be applicable to the Shrieking Terror. You won't have any skills, but you Will have other invocations as per the progression listed.

[RedWarrior0]

No Int creatures have no skill points but I don't know whether that means no skill use at all, as constructs can still climb and jump. Unclear RAW area, that.They can't have skill points, autofail a good chunk of the skills (nonabilities in Str, Dex, Con, and Int), but can use skills and even have racial bonuses.

[Andorax]

1) Have it simply not manifest. If it's indetectable on the material plane, then the PCs never encounter it. If they don't encounter it, they don't get XP for defeating it. Any CR at all is justified by a monster that uses it to deny the encounter, and thereby avoid giving up it's XP worth to the party.

2) Encounters are not always deadly...sometimes, they're about using up party resources. The first time a group of PCs encounter this, they're going to waste resources on figuring out what it is, and how to shut it up. Level-appropriate, there's not a lot of ways to even damage it, so they'll be burning up a lot of the wizard's magic missiles. Justified CR/EL of 3 by means of resource consumption.

3) Alarm spell trap is CR 1 (level of the highest-level spell used). Silent Image trap is also CR 1. Multiple independant magical effect traps combine using the rules for EL to come up with the CR. EL of 1+1 = 3.

So an intangible visible mushroom that screams its head off when anyone approaches it is arguably comparable to a combination Alarm/Silent Image magical trap, also CR 3.

[Cieyrin]

1) Have it simply not manifest. If it's indetectable on the material plane, then the PCs never encounter it. If they don't encounter it, they don't get XP for defeating it. Any CR at all is justified by a monster that uses it to deny the encounter, and thereby avoid giving up it's XP worth to the party.

If you don't encounter it, what's the point of statting it? It's a plot device at that point and about as ephemeral as flights of geese and other background details. Not really the point of the thread, really.