VOP's greatest flaw

[Kaeso]

No no no, before you go away this is not your average "VOP sucks" thread. In this thread we'll assume the opitmal situation for the feat: an E6 game (because it's better at low levels) where the DM is perhaps a bit stingy with magical items.

Let's assume our player is Charles the Brave, a fearsome knight (though his actual class is warblade) that has fought many a battle, he is the fear of all tyrants and the champion of the peasants. However, his altruistic attitude has a few major, major flaws.

1. Food. What exactly does a VOP character eat if he can't buy food? A VOP cleric, druid or favoured soul could get around this with "create food and water", and even then it's a third level spell, you can't take it from level 1. Rangers, druids and other nature-ish types can use survival, but that severely limits the classes VOP is good for, even under the most optimal of situations. So if our friend Charles takes VOP, is he supposed to beg for food? What if he leaves on a campaign that might last months, how is he supposed to survive if he can't hunt or forage, and isn't allowed to keep some trail rations with him?

2. Lodging. Where does a VOP character sleep? They're not allowed material possesions so they aren't allowed to have a house nor do they posses the funds to pay for an inn, they're not even allowed to own a bloody tent. Can you imagine this: Brave sir Charles, honourable knight Hospitaller, champion of the people, the knight who fought off hordes of orcs with nothing but a fruitknife and his bare fists, lives under a bridge in one of the nastier parts of town, not exactly the stuff an epic is made of, right? The only characters I can see pulling this off are wizards and sorcerers, and only because they 'cheat' with spells that actually produce a shelter for them, but even then they need to be at least level 5 to pull that off (with extend spell).

3. Basic hygiene. Even though the average medieval European was a lot cleaner than most of us would suspect (mostly due to stereotypes that were formed during the Enlightenment if I'm not mistaken), most of them were still limited to bathing in water. A VOP character could get this water from a well, but how does he wash himself with that water? You'd need a bathtub or at the very least a wooden bucket to properly wash yourself. What about oral hygiene? I don't know exactly how it worked in Europe but the Arabs (at least in the time of the prophet Muhammed) used to chew on a certain herb that kept their teeth relatively clean, and I assume most Arabs weren't expert hunters so you could probably buy those at a bazaar, but our friend Charles here can't. Charles the Brave won't woo that princess if he smells like a combination of mud, piss and dragon excrements.

These are often overlooked, but very vital problems VOP characters face, and I'm sure there's a handful more I've overlooked. I'd like to know how a VOP copes with these things, is there a clause I've missed or did WotC royally mess this up?

[Urpriest]

People with actual (not self-inflicted) poverty also have to face those concerns. Many of them survive.

[Ardantis]

Holy crap dude.

I agree.

Campaigns which aren't keeping track of these everyday concerns may not notice, mechanically, but wow does that add to the flavor of a VOP character.

Charles the Brave is WAY more interesting to me, the 3rd party viewer of his tale, now that he is malnourished, dirty and smelly.

Will the peasants trust him to fight their tyrant? What if he takes the throne? Imagine such a smelly ruler. We would be the laughingstock of the whole continent.

Better keep that violent sociopath in power by any means possible.

[Ernir]

Food: None but the lowest level VoP characters have to eat. Until then, they can forage, which is a ridiculously easy survival check. They can also accept gifts of charity/hospitality, and own up to one day's worth of food.

Lodgings: In barns offered by thankful peasants (or if you're so damn epic, feather beds offered by thankful kings), or, yes, under a bridge. Taking up a VoP means giving up most of your dignity.

Hygiene: Prestidigitation, and natural pools and rivers. Oral hygiene is slightly less of a concern once you stop eating.




EDIT: The idea of a kind but crazy hobo who sleeps under a bridge and gets called on whenever the village is in danger is kind of funny.

[awa]

it doesn't say he cant buy food he must donate the majority of his share not al of it (exalted deeds pg 31.) so he can get a night at an inn although it should probably be a really cheap one and he can buy a meal but again it should probably be pretty cheap. as for bathing he can jump in the lake like every one else.
also stuff like eating becuase less necessary as you gain levels

its not optimal but don't make it out to be worse then it is

[Greenish]

1. Food. What exactly does a VOP character eat if he can't buy food? A VOP cleric, druid or favoured soul could get around this with "create food and water", and even then it's a third level spell, you can't take it from level 1. Rangers, druids and other nature-ish types can use survival, but that severely limits the classes VOP is good for, even under the most optimal of situations. So if our friend Charles takes VOP, is he supposed to beg for food? What if he leaves on a campaign that might last months, how is he supposed to survive if he can't hunt or forage, and isn't allowed to keep some trail rations with him?They're supposed to beg, yeah, or to hunt and forage (which is only DC 10 survival check, so even with a Wis penalty, a single cross-class point in the skill would allow taking 10 and living comfortably out of the land).

They're also supposed to have a party who can feed them.


2. Lodging. Where does a VOP character sleep? They're not allowed material possesions so they aren't allowed to have a house nor do they posses the funds to pay for an inn, they're not even allowed to own a bloody tent. Can you imagine this: Brave sir Charles, honourable knight Hospitaller, champion of the people, the knight who fought off hordes of orcs with nothing but a fruitknife and his bare fists, lives under a bridge in one of the nastier parts of town, not exactly the stuff an epic is made of, right?You don't have to go to the nastier part of the town to sleep, and it seems about right for someone who has abandoned worldly wealth. He's not exactly a knight in shining armour, is he?


3. Basic hygiene. Even though the average medieval European was a lot cleaner than most of us would suspect (mostly due to stereotypes that were formed during the Enlightenment if I'm not mistaken), most of them were still limited to bathing in water. A VOP character could get this water from a well, but how does he wash himself with that water? You'd need a bathtub or at the very least a wooden bucket to properly wash yourself.A stream would do, or one could use the bucket usually hanging in most public wells.


What about oral hygiene?You won't be eating after level 5, you don't need teeth.


Charles the Brave won't woo that princess if he smells like a combination of mud, piss and dragon excrements.Why would he woo princesses? It's not like he could ever marry them, and in most pseudo-medieval settings people take offense at idle dalliance.

Problem might be that you're thinking of this hypothetical VoP character as a Knight in Shining Armour, when really, he is a beggar, dressed in rags, sleeping outside and washing maybe once a week (if that). That's what true poverty means.

[tyckspoon]

Lodgings: In barns offered by thankful peasants (or if you're so damn epic, feather beds offered by thankful kings), or, yes, under a bridge. Taking up a VoP means giving up most of your dignity.

VoP characters are not allowed to 'own or use' material possessions. Depending on strictness of interpretation, the best lodging you can accept under the terms of the Vow is a bit of floor space to collapse in. Maybe a lean-to shelter or a spot in somebody else's tent, assuming they put it up so you didn't personally 'use' it, but no bedding.



Will the peasants trust him to fight their tyrant? What if he takes the throne? Imagine such a smelly ruler. We would be the laughingstock of the whole continent.

I have some trouble imagining a Vow of Poverty character that would want to be in charge.. it seems to me more likely that Charles the Brave would go "I have vanquished the evil ruler, and I recommend you install This Guy as your next ruler. I know him to be a good man and wise, and he will lead you well. If he doesn't.. I'm watching."

[Talya]

2. Lodging. Where does a VOP character sleep? They're not allowed material possesions so they aren't allowed to have a house nor do they posses the funds to pay for an inn, they're not even allowed to own a bloody tent. Can you imagine this: Brave sir Charles, honourable knight Hospitaller, champion of the people, the knight who fought off hordes of orcs with nothing but a fruitknife and his bare fists, lives under a bridge in one of the nastier parts of town, not exactly the stuff an epic is made of, right?


Actually, i've always thought VOP meshes well, thematically, with Fist of the Forest's code of conduct for this reason.

[MammonAzrael]

VoP grants Sustenance at 5th level. Food no longer a problem. Before that, yes, you beg. Thats the point.
Endure Elements is granted at 3rd level for a reason. You took it, you're sleepin' outside. But you aren't uncomfortable. And its not like you have possession you have to worry about having stolen.
Yep, you're gonna be smelly. You wash in rivers. If you care about your teeth then you learn how to find various herbs and such, like any other beggar. And the entire spirit of the Vow is against taking up rule of a kingdom.


So basically, I disagree. All those "flaws" are either covered, or completely in line with the most basic concepts of the vow. The real great flaw is a lack of flight.

[JaronK]

VoP says you are allowed to have one day's worth of food at a time on your person, so what's the problem?

JaronK

[Big Fau]

People with actual (not self-inflicted) poverty also have to face those concerns. Many of them survive.

Actually, a lot of people would die if the government stopped some forms of welfare. And a lot people starve to death even with those, as some countries can't provide enough for everyone.

[Grendus]

For food, charity. Lower level they're allowed to carry up to a days rations, and between borrowing party rations, scavenging, and charity they should be fine. At higher levels, not needing nourishment is supposed to be a divine benefit of forswearing material possessions. It is EX, after all, extraordinary is supposed to be more powerful than the normal person.

For lodging... well, let's face it, most PC's sleep outside anyways, and later they can sleep in the Rope Trick or Secure Shelter. I'm honestly not sure if they're allowed to accept charity from party members or grateful clients, though I suspect the intent was that they could accept charity, so long as it's not a material possession.

As for cleanliness... Prestidigitation is a cantrip, and it can be cast by any gnome with above average charisma or a first level spellcaster of any class (and the feat explicitly allows him to receive beneficial spells from allies). They can also bathe in the river, or sponge bathe with water from the town well.

I think the point of a character with VoP is he's supposed to be humble, accepting charity and doing what he can for the world. You aren't supposed to be struggling with poverty, you've voluntarily forsworn rewards for your work and trust that those you help and the deity who's work you've sworn to do will meet your needs out of the goodness of their hearts. There's a reason that BoED has a mature tag - it's not the artwork, it's the subject matter.

[Kaeso]

For food, charity. Lower level they're allowed to carry up to a days rations, and between borrowing party rations, scavenging, and charity they should be fine. At higher levels, not needing nourishment is supposed to be a divine benefit of forswearing material possessions. It is EX, after all, extraordinary is supposed to be more powerful than the normal person.

For lodging... well, let's face it, most PC's sleep outside anyways, and later they can sleep in the Rope Trick or Secure Shelter. I'm honestly not sure if they're allowed to accept charity from party members or grateful clients, though I suspect the intent was that they could accept charity, so long as it's not a material possession.

As for cleanliness... Prestidigitation is a cantrip, and it can be cast by any gnome with above average charisma or a first level spellcaster of any class (and the feat explicitly allows him to receive beneficial spells from allies). They can also bathe in the river, or sponge bathe with water from the town well.

I think the point of a character with VoP is he's supposed to be humble, accepting charity and doing what he can for the world. You aren't supposed to be struggling with poverty, you've voluntarily forsworn rewards for your work and trust that those you help and the deity who's work you've sworn to do will meet your needs out of the goodness of their hearts. There's a reason that BoED has a mature tag - it's not the artwork, it's the subject matter.

I'm not trying to diss you or something but your response, like that of most people here, mostly comes down to "be a caster" which makes VOP's flaws even more appearant, especially since it was designed for monks.

Also, I'd like to adress the things like "sleeping in your companions tent/rope trick" and "borrowing his food/potions" and other stuff. From a meta perspective that's the best choice, but let's look at it from an in character perspective: Charles the Brave is travelling with his companions, fights with them and shares the loot with them. Wouldn't it be annoying for say, the sorcerer, if he had to deal with Charles asking him for stuff he could easily get on his own? In real life that kind of stuff would probably annoy me to the point where I'd yell "Get your own bloody tent!".

[Pigkappa]

if he had to deal with Charles asking him for stuff he could easily get on his own?

That "stuff" is a place in your tent at night and maybe some food during the day. And only at very low levels. If you are forming a party, you should try to be friends.

[Kaeso]

That "stuff" is a place in your tent at night and maybe some food during the day. And only at very low levels. If you are forming a party, you should try to be friends.

True that, but we're getting to the same problem as the 'fighter vs cleric' debate, there's a thin line between being good friends and being a leech.

[Murmaider]

If you get upset because someone is constantly depending on you outside of any combat situations, you probably shouldn't adventure with him in the first place. Because in combat he'll be even more annoying because you have to waste more of your precious spellslots, since Charles will contribute close to nothing to any battle.

[frasmage]

excuse the slightly off-topicness of this, but it appears to me you are saying that without shelter from the elements, food for sustenance or basic hygiene, VoP turns you into a super-calloused-fragile-mystic-vexed-by-halitosis?

Back to the on-topic, I've always assumed that basic survival abilities like scavenging, building makeshift shelters, etc. would be perfectly allowable. Even untrained, survival isn't particularly hard (DC 10 for foraging, 15 for shelter).

For lodging in town, perhaps the character exchanges small favor for a minimal stay at the inn (or what have you). You could offer to help clean the dishes in exchange for a little patch of floor next to the fireplace. VoP say nothing about bartering services.

For hygiene, the rain and bodies of water come to mind as an obvious option.

[Grendus]

I'm not trying to diss you or something but your response, like that of most people here, mostly comes down to "be a caster" which makes VOP's flaws even more appearant, especially since it was designed for monks.

Not really. They're allowed to eat regular food or scavenge food with the Survival skill. They're allowed to receive rations from the party members, and even allowed to carry up to a days rations with them until they receive the extraordinary ability to ignore the need for food. Will they go hungry? Maybe sometimes, if they don't have party members looking out for them and they're on a time limit (it's a DC 10 check to scavenge food in the wild, unless moving at full speed is crucial anybody without a wisdom penalty could, odds are, come up with food in the wild often enough to avoid starvation, especially if your party mates are also making the checks). Honestly though, if your party mates object to offering you their extra 5sp rations or spending an extra day or two in the wild, maybe the BoED isn't a good choice for you.

As for the tent, sleeping outside in calm weather isn't an issue. In harsh weather, even a neutral character wouldn't object to offering to let a companion who he routinely trusts in life or death situations share his tent/extradimensional sleeping bag with room for 8. Odds are he's not begging, he's humble enough to accept charity when offered and endure hardship when it isn't.


Also, I'd like to adress the things like "sleeping in your companions tent/rope trick" and "borrowing his food/potions" and other stuff. From a meta perspective that's the best choice, but let's look at it from an in character perspective: Charles the Brave is travelling with his companions, fights with them and shares the loot with them. Wouldn't it be annoying for say, the sorcerer, if he had to deal with Charles asking him for stuff he could easily get on his own? In real life that kind of stuff would probably annoy me to the point where I'd yell "Get your own bloody tent!".

Again, BoED has a mature tag. It's probably for the artwork, but the material requires some maturity as well. Charles the Brave, lawful good champion dedicated to justice, probably shouldn't be traveling with a party of selfish, chaotic neutral mercenaries (at least, not long term). Ideally he should be traveling with a group of somewhat like minded individuals who would willingly offer him help with his devotion. If you want to play an exalted character in a group of mostly neutral or evil characters, maybe you should come up with a different character concept, odds are that even without the Sacred Vow you would still run into alignment issues with them.

[Krazzman]

As far as I recollect from reading about that Vow...you can have an Armor, a Weapon, 1 or 2 Blankets and as said 1 day worth of food. The basic adventuring gear ( Rope + said Blankets + 1 sack and armor + food) are allowed for the vow of poverty.

Still I think this is a bit against that vow.

[Volos]

If you've taken VOP, it is because you are some holy sort of person who wants to be made humble before your deity. Oddly enough, temples/churches/cults that have such examples of pure humility tend to take care of said VOP individuals without asking for anything in return. And if you're out adventuring and making a good deal of coin to bring back to the church and/or worthy cause, it isn't that far fetched that they may want to offer you a hot meal, a comfortable bed, or even a bath. If their god(dess), which is to say your god(dess), is giving you boons for your humility... why wouldn't they follow suit?

[Captain Six]

A minor note but oral hygiene isn't really an issue. Dark ages folks had no where near the amount of sugar and acids we have in our foods. It's literally to the point where average oral hygiene has gotten worse over time, not better. At least if you're judging by oral disease and cavities, our teeth are much straighter but little else (maybe Mending can take care of that, who knows).

[prufock]

As far as I recollect from reading about that Vow...you can have an Armor, a Weapon, 1 or 2 Blankets and as said 1 day worth of food. The basic adventuring gear ( Rope + said Blankets + 1 sack and armor + food) are allowed for the vow of poverty.
Mundane, non-masterwork weapons. No armor, just ordinary clothes. One ordinary sack. One spell component pouch. That's it - no rope, no blankets. However I would always allow a begging/eating bowl and spoon/fork/spork/chopsticks, provided they were wooden and self-made.

1. "You may carry enough food to sustain you for one day" is specifically pointed out in the feat. Foraging and hunting for food is a DC 10 survival check, which means even without ranks and with an average wisdom you can take 10 and auto-succeed. Even at minimum wisdom for a PC, you'll succeed 35% of the time. By 5th level you don't need to eat or drink.

2. Build a lean-to. Again, a "typical item" has a DC of 10, and you can use Craft untrained, so it shouldn't be hard to make a little hut for the night. And a hut has no gp value (made entirely of free limbs and branches), so it doesn't take much time to do it, and it doesn't violate the vow. By 3rd level you can endure very hot and very cold environments, so sleeping under the stars doesn't bother you (though rain, wind, precipitation, etc can still make it uncomfortable).

3. The town well probably has a bucket attached. You can use natural bodies of water. Eat apples, carrots, cucumbers, chew on sticks of certain trees, bird feathers, animal bones, porcupine quills; heck, you can floss with grass! These are actual methods that have been used in oral hygiene history. There are natural scents that can cover body odor.
Bending the rules just a tad, there is vinegar (presuming vinegar is available in your setting - it's been around for thousands of years), which is technically a food, so you can carry "enough to sustain you for one day," and is also a darn good cleanser; just dilute it a bit.

But I think you're missing the point of voluntary poverty, just a tad. Sir Charles the Brave is not the kind of character we would expect to take the Vow of Poverty - he's a knight for goodness sake! I'm not putting down playing against type, but some of the things that are characteristic of knights are armor, swords, and horses.

Along the same lines, though, voluntary poverty is not supposed to be easy. The bonuses you get from the feat are intended to offset the extreme disadvantage you are at as an adventurer by assuming a life of voluntary poverty. It isn't a feat you take because it's got "mad plusses" to armor class. You're expecting to woo the princess? Sorry, but unless she is set on making daddy mad, she probably isn't going to fall for Sir Charles. If he's going to whine about it, perhaps voluntary poverty isn't the life for him.

[Callista]

1. Food. What exactly does a VOP character eat if he can't buy food? A VOP cleric, druid or favoured soul could get around this with "create food and water", and even then it's a third level spell, you can't take it from level 1. Rangers, druids and other nature-ish types can use survival, but that severely limits the classes VOP is good for, even under the most optimal of situations. So if our friend Charles takes VOP, is he supposed to beg for food? What if he leaves on a campaign that might last months, how is he supposed to survive if he can't hunt or forage, and isn't allowed to keep some trail rations with him?Yes, begging is pretty much how VoP characters survive. This is traditional, actually. Monks in medieval times used to do it. If he leaves on a campaign, he certainly can hunt or forage--he can have a day's worth of food with him, remember? He just has to give away everything beyond that bare minimum. Difficult? Sure. But not impossible.


2. Lodging. Where does a VOP character sleep? They're not allowed material possesions so they aren't allowed to have a house nor do they posses the funds to pay for an inn, they're not even allowed to own a bloody tent. Can you imagine this: Brave sir Charles, honourable knight Hospitaller, champion of the people, the knight who fought off hordes of orcs with nothing but a fruitknife and his bare fists, lives under a bridge in one of the nastier parts of town, not exactly the stuff an epic is made of, right?Depends on your definition of "epic". Most likely, he doesn't have a bridge to call his own, either--he probably lives entirely on the road and sleeps under the stars (or in a tree if it's not safe on the ground). VoP characters have to be pretty tough to survive that. But get into the character's head a bit and you'll understand why: Every time he sleeps under a blanket, he thinks of all the people who don't have blankets. It's a great deal more comfortable for him to give away the blanket and be cold, than to know someone else is cold and he could have prevented it.


3. Basic hygiene. Even though the average medieval European was a lot cleaner than most of us would suspect (mostly due to stereotypes that were formed during the Enlightenment if I'm not mistaken), most of them were still limited to bathing in water. A VOP character could get this water from a well, but how does he wash himself with that water? You'd need a bathtub or at the very least a wooden bucket to properly wash yourself.No bucket necessary if you find a stream or use a public horse trough. It's possible to wash yourself with your hands, so you won't need a sponge or washcloth.


What about oral hygiene? I don't know exactly how it worked in Europe but the Arabs (at least in the time of the prophet Muhammed) used to chew on a certain herb that kept their teeth relatively clean, and I assume most Arabs weren't expert hunters so you could probably buy those at a bazaar, but our friend Charles here can't. Charles the Brave won't woo that princess if he smells like a combination of mud, piss and dragon excrements.You can actually clean your teeth with the corner of your shirt and some water. As for the princess, Charles is likely to have a vow of chastity--or else the princess will be just as dedicated to helping others as he is. She'd have to be, or they wouldn't be a good match.


These are often overlooked, but very vital problems VOP characters face, and I'm sure there's a handful more I've overlooked. I'd like to know how a VOP copes with these things, is there a clause I've missed or did WotC royally mess this up?I don't think so. It requires creativity, but it's possible. You're sitting here with multiple changes of clothing, an Internet connection, a permanent place to live, and as much food as you like, so it's difficult to think of how you might deal with not having anything. But people do, all the time. We're tough like that. Read some about the way the poorest people in developing countries survive; they're pretty much living at the level a VoP character might.

No, of course he isn't a conventional hero. He's not the knight in shining armor. He's the raggedy, dirty beggar that you wouldn't think is anything special until he charges the dragon and punches it straight in the face. If you're trying to turn VoP into something glamorous or overpowered, don't; it's not meant to be. It's meant to be a way to play a survivable character when you have created someone who simply cannot stand owning even a copper when it could be given to help someone else.

[awa]

i don't think most people are saying be a caster i think one person mentioned that some low level spells the party would likely be casting any way negated the problems. the vast majority of the comments are this is not a problem unless you are playing a character who wouldn't take vow of poverty in the first place and then the problem is yours for trying to play a dashing knight who wants to rule kingdoms and woo princes instead of a humble man who has forsworn material goods. vow of poverty has its problems particularly for martial classes food shelter and cleanliness is not one of them.

[Ravens_cry]

I think it's biggest flaw mechanically is that, been fixed bonuses, it only assumes a relatively narrow range of optimization comfort and magical enhancements availability, which, depending on the campaign, could be broken bad or even broken good.
A big thematic flaw for me is you can't have a holy symbol.
Vow of Poverty practically SCREAMS someone with some form of ecclesiastical devotion, but it purposely makes that basically unplayable.

[krai]

In the middle ages people very rarely bathed. One Queen of England bathed once a month and was considered weird because of it. So depending on how close to the real middle ages your campaign is most of the characters would be not bathing. This is why most of us pay no attention to role playing the smell of the PCs.

[Analytica]

Keeping within the intent of it, but bending the rules as written only slightly, this is not really a problem. Think of eastern monks with begging bowls for their food, or the kind of relief worker that really uses all their time and resources for a cause. The intent should be that no possessions should be used for comfort, for luxury or to improve your mechanical capacity. Your clothes are broken or dirty? Work a stable for some hours in return for getting to borrow thread, needle and rags to fix them, and clean yourself up as well. Warm water? No, cold is fine. You'll get sufficiently clean that way, and do not want to consume resources just to feel better. If you actually need rations to go in the wilderness, do the same, or stock up for a while. Yes, this bends the rule in a minor way. But once you get back, donate whatever is left. If you ever encounter anyone worse off than you, give them what you have.

[Fouredged Sword]

The average hero comes out of a dungeon covered in monster guts and hasn't bathed in a week in a world that jimmy's magic deoderent of dystankifying has not been invented.

You ALL stink. You likely stink less than everyone else. The fighter and cleric are in full platemail and those you pooped in becuse there was no flap for the botom. The wizard has a bag of bat poop he walks around with. the rouge is smelly from sneaking through muck to get into sneak attack position.

You likely smell much better than everyone else for the simple fact that you are not covered in poop, seeing as you leave that requirement behind at 5th level.

[Tyndmyr]

No no no, before you go away this is not your average "VOP sucks" thread. In this thread we'll assume the opitmal situation for the feat: an E6 game (because it's better at low levels) where the DM is perhaps a bit stingy with magical items.

Why is this optimal? E6 rewards you handily with feats, the same thing VoP mainly gives, and gives you more wealth at level 6 than usual. In short, the benefit is worth less, and the cost is higher.

E6 VoP is a very poor choice.

[Morph Bark]

So basically, I disagree. All those "flaws" are either covered, or completely in line with the most basic concepts of the vow. The real great flaw is a lack of flight.

Raptoran Saints FTW!

[CTrees]

Raptoran Saints FTW!

Who dat?

Wait, wrong game. Still... a D&D adaptaption of American football (similar to Bloodbowl, I'm aware) could be all sorts of fascinating. Wonder how an all flying team would interfere with the normal dynamics...

[Kansaschaser]

Normally in games I run, I inform the players that we will be taking the campaign into the epic levels. I then also let them know that Vow of Poverty has no epic progression. Finally, I let them know that I normally hand out two to three times the ammount of wealth per level.

No one has taken Vow of Poverty in my campaigns....ever. :smallcool:

[MammonAzrael]

Raptoran Saints FTW!

Dragonborn Saints! You've already got a solid line of credit with a major deity!

[Morph Bark]

Dragonborn Saints! You've already got a solid line of credit with a major deity!

Dragonborn Raptoran Saints! Get flight and also a breath weapon or great senses!

[Talya]

Dragonborn Raptoran Saints! Get flight and also a breath weapon or great senses!

You're on to something, here.

[Gnaeus]

3. Basic hygiene. Even though the average medieval European was a lot cleaner than most of us would suspect (mostly due to stereotypes that were formed during the Enlightenment if I'm not mistaken), most of them were still limited to bathing in water. A VOP character could get this water from a well, but how does he wash himself with that water? You'd need a bathtub or at the very least a wooden bucket to properly wash yourself. What about oral hygiene? I don't know exactly how it worked in Europe but the Arabs (at least in the time of the prophet Muhammed) used to chew on a certain herb that kept their teeth relatively clean, and I assume most Arabs weren't expert hunters so you could probably buy those at a bazaar, but our friend Charles here can't. Charles the Brave won't woo that princess if he smells like a combination of mud, piss and dragon excrements.


The closest historical analogy to a VoP knight would be a member of a militant church order like the Templars.


he was required to wear a white lambskin girdle at all times "as a reminder of his vow of chastity."

"That rule did not interfere with bathing, for the Templar was never to bathe his body," "The rule never to remove his sheepskin drawers and not to bathe for years on end in a blistering hot climate may have helped the Templar knight to adhere to his vow of chastity."

So, gross, but, yeah.

Also, I can't speak to medieval Europe's dental practices, but there are clear historical accounts that the Romans cleaned their teeth with urine. Charles probably has access to that.

[Tengu_temp]

In the middle ages people very rarely bathed. One Queen of England bathed once a month and was considered weird because of it. So depending on how close to the real middle ages your campaign is most of the characters would be not bathing. This is why most of us pay no attention to role playing the smell of the PCs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvdf5n-zI14

This is a common misconception. People in the middle ages weren't usually paragons of personal hygiene, but they weren't filth-covered pigs who didn't pay any attention to cleanliness either. For example, not bathing before going to meet with someone of higher social standing would often be a huge affront.

[Fouredged Sword]

Hygiene went in and out of fashion in various groups at various times throughout the dark ages. Even the best of times had cities being open sewers and everything smelling of the backside of a horse though, even if you bathed daily.

[Tengu_temp]

That's more like XVIII century. There is a reason tanneries and other similar businesses were kept on the edges of settlements - they didn't want them to stink up the city.

[Morph Bark]

You're on to something, here.

Raptorans are one of the best combinations to go with Dragonborn for sure, as long as you don't take the Wings aspect of course. :smallwink: Others include Goliaths and Mongrelfolk, the latter for sure with the Heart aspect for the breath weapon.