Ways to break 0-2nd level spells

[Xtomjames]

Here's my favorite so far (I listed it also in favorite spell, but it's a good starter for this thread. Sorry in advance if it's a repeat).

Making the water jet pack: You create up to 2 gallons per level instantaneously.

Use craft arms and armaments to form a funnel with a very narrow muzzle (roughly 1.5 inches in diameter) that fits over your hand and comes to a point (think sort of like hose spout). Create water on your hand. At 20th level that's 40 gallons instantly formed inside the nozzle with no where else to go but out.

The water would be 5.7 cubic feet of water rushing out in an instant through a narrow stream. That's 357 lbs of water hitting a creature in an instant. The PSI would be Area of the Nozzle container (roughly 78 square inches)/nozzle diameter ~1.5~* total weight of the water 357 lbs. (78 square inches is the average flat area of a fisted hand plus a 3 inch cone and nozzle~ imagine an open ended oil can). That's a PSI of over 18,000 for a 1.5 inch wide jet of water. I'd suspect it could be treated as a line weapon with a range of 80 feet or so, damage I'd follow the falling rule (1d6/10lbs of weight, or roughly 35D6 in initial damage).

Why falling damage rules (1d6/10 lbs): 2 gallons (at first level) is 16 lbs so 1d6 damage makes sense. @ 2nd level it'd be 3d6 (or 32 lbs), 3rd level would be 4d6 (32+16=48), 4th level would be 6d6, 6th level 9d6, 7th level 11d6, 8th level 12d6, 9th level 14d6, 10th level 16d6, 11th 17d6, 12th 19d6, 13th 20d6, 14th 22d6, 15th 24d6, 16th 25d6, 17th 27d6, 18th 28d6, 19th 30d6, 20th 35d6)

[OracleofSilence]

keep in mind, that while that does work, it would rapidly decrease in effectiveness as the water spread out. however, it is a cool trick.and quick question. wouldn't it need x many gallons of volume to form? so wouldn't it just kinda go "bloop" and splash to the ground :smallconfused:? i may be miss-remembering the spell.

[Jack_Simth]

Here's my favorite so far (I listed it also in favorite spell, but it's a good starter for this thread. Sorry in advance if it's a repeat).

Making the water jet pack: You create up to 2 gallons per level instantaneously.

Use craft arms and armaments to form a funnel with a very narrow muzzle (roughly 1.5 inches in diameter) that fits over your hand and comes to a point (think sort of like hose spout). Create water on your hand. At 20th level that's 40 gallons instantly formed inside the nozzle with no where else to go but out.

The water would be 5.7 cubic feet of water rushing out in an instant through a narrow stream. That's 357 lbs of water hitting a creature in an instant. The PSI would be Area of the Nozzle container (roughly 78 square inches)/nozzle diameter ~1.5~* total weight of the water 357 lbs. (78 square inches is the average flat area of a fisted hand plus a 3 inch cone and nozzle~ imagine an open ended oil can). That's a PSI of over 18,000 for a 1.5 inch wide jet of water. I'd suspect it could be treated as a line weapon with a range of 80 feet or so, damage I'd follow the falling rule (1d6/10lbs of weight, or roughly 35D6 in initial damage).You'll need a Regenerate spell, after. If you're bringing real-world physics into D&D, then there's those pesky Newton's Laws for what happens at the other end of that stream you anchored to your noodly wizard-arm.

Really, though, the breakable spells are the ones used as intended - things like Wings of Cover.

[Circle of Life]

Power Word: Pain.

The end.

[OracleofSilence]

You'll need a Regenerate spell, after. If you're bringing real-world physics into D&D, then there's those pesky Newton's Laws for what happens at the other end of that stream you anchored to your noodly wizard-arm.

Its actually worse then that. D&D physics are not ours. In D&D, entropy is an energy (see entropomancer, and all those references to entropic energy), and it has a plan of its opposite that is equally disordered (positive and negative energy plane's). I don't even know what that would mean. Most likely that it is something totally different. Either that, or chemistry and physics just don't work at all there (or they work weirdly).

So yeah, just stick with spells as used. It is still fairly easy. Like Bestow Power (sure its psionics but still). With a few feats you quickly have an infinite pp source.

[tyckspoon]

re: Water Cannon: This, like so many attempts to 'break' low-level spells in this fashion, doesn't work. Either your funnel design is open to the air at some point, or it isn't. If it's open, you are attempting to shove in more water than the funnel can actually contain, and the rest of it just gets generated outside the funnel, soaking yourself and creating a weak stream as the actual volume of the funnel drains (as per Create Water- "Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid" and "Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon. One cubic foot of water contains roughly 8 gallons and weighs about 60 pounds." So your 40 gallons of water requires 5 cubic feet of space in which to appear- if you are creating it in a space that would force it to be pressurized, you are creating it in too small a space and will have to settle for however much water that space could actually hold.) If it's not open to the air, you have neither line of sight nor line of effect to the location you wish to generate the water, and cannot select that place as a valid point of origin as per the general spellcasting rules.

[LaughingRogue]

Alter self is a second level spell...

[Xtomjames]

re: Water Cannon: This, like so many attempts to 'break' low-level spells in this fashion, doesn't work. Either your funnel design is open to the air at some point, or it isn't. If it's open, you are attempting to shove in more water than the funnel can actually contain, and the rest of it just gets generated outside the funnel, soaking yourself and creating a weak stream as the actual volume of the funnel drains (as per Create Water- "Water can be created in an area as small as will actually contain the liquid" and "Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon. One cubic foot of water contains roughly 8 gallons and weighs about 60 pounds." So your 40 gallons of water requires 5 cubic feet of space in which to appear- if you are creating it in a space that would force it to be pressurized, you are creating it in too small a space and will have to settle for however much water that space could actually hold.) If it's not open to the air, you have neither line of sight nor line of effect to the location you wish to generate the water, and cannot select that place as a valid point of origin as per the general spellcasting rules.


You'll need a Regenerate spell, after. If you're bringing real-world physics into D&D, then there's those pesky Newton's Laws for what happens at the other end of that stream you anchored to your noodly wizard-arm.

Really, though, the breakable spells are the ones used as intended - things like Wings of Cover.


Unfortunately both of you are ignoring the functionality of the create water spell.

The water is described as pouring out like a fountain from the hand or object that the create water spell is cast on. Now my design makes it look like a gun, but a closed watering can would do just as well. The pressure exerted on the caster (if we are going the route of Newtonian laws here) wouldn't be much more than that of a fire hose on a firefighter. A well armored cleric or favored soul wouldn't have much of an issue handling the pressure.

Where the water goes, in this case, is specific, the water won't form outside of the funnel or container if the container is specified. The functions and exactness of the spell make this the case, so the whole water forming outside of the container and nozzle wouldn't work. I understand where you're coming from but it's not a functional end result based on the game mechanics (though real life mechanics, what you say is true).

Because the nozzle allows the water to go somewhere, the nozzle is always considered an empty vessel for the purposes of the spell and is thus not limited in the amount of water that can be created in side it.

@ Oracled Silence, rethinking the construction a bit, the damage would be a one shot instant hit, rather than a line of damage. Because the water is created instantaneously the shot would essentially last instantaneously.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Rope Trick: Look, ma, I can reset my spell list whenever I want to!

Alter Self: Do I *REALLY* need to go into details?

Hail of Stones. Seeing as it is area effect, no save, and no SR, it's the perfect vehicle for things like Fell Drain, Fell Frighten, and other, obnoxious metamagic stacking effects.

Grease: No SR, No (it doesn't matter if you), Save Just Lose effect until opponents start flying.

Glitterdust: In addition to highlighting invisible opponents, it's Will save or Lose.

[Eldariel]

Prestidigitation is not called mini-Wish for no reason. Sky is the limit. Silent Image too (make it look like a Gate with Dragon coming through it - dat Intimidate)

[Amphetryon]

Sonic Snap + Fell Drain = a very bad day for the target.

[Eledragon]

Mage hand. mess up their organs, as i don't think you can attend your organs unless you have a surgeon on hand. :smallamused:

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Mage hand. mess up their organs, as i don't think you can attend your organs unless you have a surgeon on hand. :smallamused:

No line of sight, sorry.

[erikun]

You can't use Conjuration to create something inside an object, and even if you could, you cannot create it in an area too small for it to hold.

[Jack_Simth]

Where the water goes, in this case, is specific, the water won't form outside of the funnel or container if the container is specified. The functions and exactness of the spell make this the case, so the whole water forming outside of the container and nozzle wouldn't work. I understand where you're coming from but it's not a functional end result based on the game mechanics (though real life mechanics, what you say is true). The problem is that you're mixing the two. You're turning on real world physics to get the blasting gun, and then you're turning them off again to avoid the consequences. You're having it both ways (or at least trying to do so). But I suppose there is a way around that aspect: Launch the bottle (a bottle rocket?) at them.

Plus there's the line of effect issue; if the nozzle is less than one square foot in area, you don't have line of effect to the inside of the bottle. If the nozzle is that big, you need a *very* large amount of water all at once.

[Captain Six]

I've always loved the idea of using Ray of Frost to deal sneak attack damage: a small bullet of ice straight between the eyes. I'm pretty sure the whole 1d3 energy damage spell line has had many metamagic abuses, stacking negative levels on it and such.

[Amphetryon]

This thread is making me think about ways to make a caster who only uses cantrips viable in an upper level campaign.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This thread is making me think about ways to make a caster who only uses cantrips viable in an upper level campaign.

What, you mean That Damn Gnome? Miracles out of cantrip slots... supposedly

[Amphetryon]

What, you mean That Damn Gnome? Miracles out of cantrip slots... supposedly

Or UPS Man.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Or UPS Man.

Technically... he used a 1st level spell. Hail of Stones was the easiest vehicle, although with a couple of extra feats, any area effect No SR spell would work.

[Mikeavelli]

The problem is that you're mixing the two. You're turning on real world physics to get the blasting gun, and then you're turning them off again to avoid the consequences. You're having it both ways (or at least trying to do so). But I suppose there is a way around that aspect: Launch the bottle (a bottle rocket?) at them.

Plus there's the line of effect issue; if the nozzle is less than one square foot in area, you don't have line of effect to the inside of the bottle. If the nozzle is that big, you need a *very* large amount of water all at once.

Basically this. Creating a jet of water sufficiently powerful enough to serve as a weapon would, with this design, crush your hand for at least as much damage as you're trying to inflict on someone else. This is even presuming you're strong enough to hold and properly aim it in the first place.

Also, it'd have a shorter range and be less effective than a bow. Just use the 0-level spell Launch Bolt.

[Salanmander]

The water would be 5.7 cubic feet of water rushing out in an instant through a narrow stream. That's 357 lbs of water hitting a creature in an instant. The PSI would be Area of the Nozzle container (roughly 78 square inches)/nozzle diameter ~1.5~* total weight of the water 357 lbs. (78 square inches is the average flat area of a fisted hand plus a 3 inch cone and nozzle~ imagine an open ended oil can). That's a PSI of over 18,000 for a 1.5 inch wide jet of water. I'd suspect it could be treated as a line weapon with a range of 80 feet or so, damage I'd follow the falling rule (1d6/10lbs of weight, or roughly 35D6 in initial damage).

Ok, even if we're allowing real-world physics, your pressure calculation makes absolutely no sense. The weight of the water isn't going to enter into it (much) because you're not trying to hold up the water, you're trying to squeeze the water.

On top of that, in real world physics "instantaneous" just doesn't make sense. There is no such thing as instantaneous. In order to calculate the effect of that cannon you would need to have a real, non-infinite rate of creation of water.

Lastly, as other people have pointed out, if you want to submerse your hand in water that is creating a burst of 18,000 PSI water, your hand is going to be subjected to 18,000 PSI as well. That's well more than enough to crush a gauntleted hand. (Unless, of course, the duration of this whole thing is instantaneous, in which case the enormous force for zero time creates zero impulse, and would do absolutely nothing to anybody. Including your target.)

[Xtomjames]

The problem is that you're mixing the two. You're turning on real world physics to get the blasting gun, and then you're turning them off again to avoid the consequences. You're having it both ways (or at least trying to do so). But I suppose there is a way around that aspect: Launch the bottle (a bottle rocket?) at them.

Plus there's the line of effect issue; if the nozzle is less than one square foot in area, you don't have line of effect to the inside of the bottle. If the nozzle is that big, you need a *very* large amount of water all at once.

I'm not mixing the two, I'm using one to explain the other. D&D physics are just simplified real world physics for the most part. I'm using game rules to explain the majority of it's functions, and filling in where the game rules aren't clear or are non-existent with basic physics. The game rules take precedent over real world physics (always) in this type of application. Thus real world physics is only a supplement. What more there is nothing wrong with using them both when the game rules do not cover such a function. Rather, all I have done is take it to its most logical use in game, which is as a weapon.


Ok, even if we're allowing real-world physics, your pressure calculation makes absolutely no sense. The weight of the water isn't going to enter into it (much) because you're not trying to hold up the water, you're trying to squeeze the water.

On top of that, in real world physics "instantaneous" just doesn't make sense. There is no such thing as instantaneous. In order to calculate the effect of that cannon you would need to have a real, non-infinite rate of creation of water.

Lastly, as other people have pointed out, if you want to submerse your hand in water that is creating a burst of 18,000 PSI water, your hand is going to be subjected to 18,000 PSI as well. That's well more than enough to crush a gauntleted hand. (Unless, of course, the duration of this whole thing is instantaneous, in which case the enormous force for zero time creates zero impulse, and would do absolutely nothing to anybody. Including your target.)

First thing, please see the above point made to Jack_Simth. Secondly, you're ignoring the functionality of the spell again.

The calculation of damage is based on weight, not pressure, pressure only determines range. Thirdly you're ignoring the rules of physics for dynamic fluid movement. The instantaneous pressure formed in the nozzle would be also instantaneously released because it has a place to go. The 18,000 psi is at nozzle point, not within the container its self.

A real world example of this point is putting a blackcat fire cracker in a sealed container that is then dropped into a plastic bottle of water and then the ignited. The explosion of the firecracker does exert some force on the bottle, but that is more or less mitigated by the fact that the water has a place to go, which is out the open top. The bottle doesn't explode because the pressure is released.

The magnitude of the pressure the bottle it's self experiences is equal to the PSI at the nozzle/rate of flow (this is highly simplified, the actual equation is (PSI(r)+PSI(i))/V(r+i)*(.75*nozzle diameter), where r is rate of flow, i is initial state).

So in the case of the example in game 18,000 psi is the nozzle pressure, the rate of flow is instantaneous, or in real life terms roughly a second (as a DM I tend to make spells that are instantaneous take 1-2 second, as the concept of instant isn't well defined and I need to relate it to real world terms here~ instantaneous is faster than any person can react in game. An immediate or swift action is treated as a 2 second action and they're the fastest actions in game. Free actions take no effort to do and thus occur simultaneously to other actions.). Rate of flow is water output over a period of 1-2 second through a 1.5 inch nozzle. If we presume all water is expended in 1 to 2 seconds then the rate of flow is 40/1 second or 20 gallons/1 seconds.

Thus 18,000 psi/40g/s, this is equal to 450 lbs of pressure per square inch in one second on the hand of the character if we presume (regardless of either rate used). Remember there is a difference between nozzle pressure and hose pressure (or in this case hand held container pressure). We could reduce the over all psi on the character's hand by increasing volume area of the container, this of course would reduce the nozzle pressure and thus affective range, but not reduce damage.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm not mixing the two, I'm using one to explain the other. D&D physics are just simplified real world physics for the most part. I'm using game rules to explain the majority of it's functions, and filling in where the game rules aren't clear or are non-existent with basic physics. The game rules take precedent over real world physics (always) in this type of application. Thus real world physics is only a supplement. What more there is nothing wrong with using them both when the game rules do not cover such a function. Rather, all I have done is take it to its most logical use in game, which is as a weapon.

No, what you have done is arbitrarily copied half of an effect, deliberately ignored the other half, then tried to use psudo-science to back up your position.

D&D physics does not conform to Newtonian physics.

tl;dr version: no, it doesn't shoot out. You, the cylinder, and the area around you is now wet.

[The Underlord]

10 negative levels magic missle
Fell drain + Twin + Arcane thesis + CL 9= 5th level spell slot giving 10 negative levels no way to avoid except with SR . THAT is what an evoker does.

[Amphetryon]

10 negative levels magic missle
Fell drain + Twin + Arcane thesis + CL 9= 5th level spell slot giving 10 negative levels no way to avoid except with SR. THAT is what an evoker does.
No way to avoid? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm)

[The Underlord]

darrn but it still works against non-casters(i bet the tarrsque doesnt know shield). Now just need to find something for undead and construct

[Eldariel]

No way to avoid? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shield.htm)

There's also this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm), this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contingency.htm), a bunch of these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#types) & a dozen other things I don't feel like listing right now, of course with even more outside Core.


darrn but it still works against non-casters(i bet the tarrsque doesnt know shield). Now just need to find something for undead and construct

Tarrasque is immune to negative levels...

[Xtomjames]

No, what you have done is arbitrarily copied half of an effect, deliberately ignored the other half, then tried to use psudo-science to back up your position.

D&D physics does not conform to Newtonian physics.

tl;dr version: no, it doesn't shoot out. You, the cylinder, and the area around you is now wet.

That is your presumption. I've used some simplified mathematics to work out the actual physics behind the action, while relying on game mechanics to define parameters and limitations. To be fair, any D&D physics is going to be pseudo-science, and frankly I don't care. I'm pointing out a fun way to use a spell in an unintended fashion, suggesting how it could and would work, and having to rely on actual physics when game mechanics don't have this sort of thing worked out. Any time real physics is brought into D&D physics there is going to be some fluffing, that doesn't mean the concept wouldn't work. Such a decision would be left up tot he DM.

[Arundel]

To be fair, any D&D physics is going to be pseudo-science, and frankly I don't care. I'm pointing out a fun way to use a spell in an unintended fashion, suggesting how it could and would work, and having to rely on actual physics when game mechanics don't have this sort of thing worked out. Any time real physics is brought into D&D physics there is going to be some fluffing, that doesn't mean the concept wouldn't work. Such a decision would be left up tot he DM.


This spell generates wholesome, drinkable
water, just like clean rain water. Water can
be created in an area as small as will
actually contain the liquid, or in an area
three times as large—possibly creating a
downpour or filling many small receptacles.

Based on your interpretation, I can summon the water into a space so small it is essentially a zero point. And cause a black hole to exist. Just a minor "fluffing". If you're going to ignore the rules and general logic then go all out. Destroy the setting with cantrips.

[Salanmander]

The calculation of damage is based on weight, not pressure, pressure only determines range. Thirdly you're ignoring the rules of physics for dynamic fluid movement. The instantaneous pressure formed in the nozzle would be also instantaneously released because it has a place to go. The 18,000 psi is at nozzle point, not within the container its self.

A real world example of this point is putting a blackcat fire cracker in a sealed container that is then dropped into a plastic bottle of water and then the ignited. The explosion of the firecracker does exert some force on the bottle, but that is more or less mitigated by the fact that the water has a place to go, which is out the open top. The bottle doesn't explode because the pressure is released.

The magnitude of the pressure the bottle it's self experiences is equal to the PSI at the nozzle/rate of flow (this is highly simplified, the actual equation is (PSI(r)+PSI(i))/V(r+i)*(.75*nozzle diameter), where r is rate of flow, i is initial state).

So in the case of the example in game 18,000 psi is the nozzle pressure, the rate of flow is instantaneous, or in real life terms roughly a second (as a DM I tend to make spells that are instantaneous take 1-2 second, as the concept of instant isn't well defined and I need to relate it to real world terms here~ instantaneous is faster than any person can react in game. An immediate or swift action is treated as a 2 second action and they're the fastest actions in game. Free actions take no effort to do and thus occur simultaneously to other actions.). Rate of flow is water output over a period of 1-2 second through a 1.5 inch nozzle. If we presume all water is expended in 1 to 2 seconds then the rate of flow is 40/1 second or 20 gallons/1 seconds.

Thus 18,000 psi/40g/s, this is equal to 450 lbs of pressure per square inch in one second on the hand of the character if we presume (regardless of either rate used). Remember there is a difference between nozzle pressure and hose pressure (or in this case hand held container pressure). We could reduce the over all psi on the character's hand by increasing volume area of the container, this of course would reduce the nozzle pressure and thus affective range, but not reduce damage.

Okay, that makes a lot more sense. I admit my knowledge of fluid mechanics is almost entirely about statics, so the nozzle effect with flow isn't my forte. I'd just like to note that you introduced an assumption here that was critical to your argument: "instantaneous" actually means "over about 1-2 seconds".

[Getsugaru]

Launch Bolt with Eschew Materials. Shoot crossbow bolts of any size.

Shoot bolts meant for a tiny crossbow: instant nails in target.

Shoot bolts meant for a COLOSSAL crossbow: redwood sized Ballista Bolts. :smallamused:

Teehee. :smallbiggrin:

[Talya]

This is too much work. Just get a decanter of endless water.

[Keld Denar]

Um, pressure within a vessel is uniform...that is very simple physics.

Also, the guidelines for spells specifically give guidelines for what kind of damage ranges are acceptable for a given level of spells. More than a single die of damage is simply outside of the reach of a 0th level spell, no matter how you cut it.

[Gauntlet]

I vaguely remember a CharOp thread discussing exactly how much damage could be deal by splitting atoms through Shatter casting. There was a rather large number of d6 involved.

[Randomguy]

Launch Bolt with Eschew Materials. Shoot crossbow bolts of any size.

Shoot bolts meant for a tiny crossbow: instant nails in target.

Shoot bolts meant for a COLOSSAL crossbow: redwood sized Ballista Bolts. :smallamused:

Teehee. :smallbiggrin:

Actually you can only get up to gargantuan size bolts: collossal bolts cost 1gp and 6sp, too expensive for eschew materials.

[Dragonsoul]

Strictly Speaking its 3rd Level, but it wrecks an entire Campaign

You need
10 Nails
1 Comfy Chair
2 Straps of Leather
1 Colossal++++++ Adamantine Greatclub(Assuming Level 6 Sorcerer)
Banana Smoothie


1)Affix the Chair to the Greatclub
2)Cast Animate Weapon
3)Enjoy your smoothie while you wreck the country.:smallcool:

[Flickerdart]

Strictly Speaking its 3rd Level, but it wrecks an entire Campaign

You need
10 Nails
1 Comfy Chair
2 Straps of Leather
1 Colossal++++++ Adamantine Greatclub(Assuming Level 6 Sorcerer)
Banana Smoothie


1)Affix the Chair to the Greatclub
2)Cast Animate Weapon
3)Enjoy your smoothie while you wreck the country.:smallcool:
Shatter, then Mage Hand to confiscate your smoothie.

[Dragonsoul]

Shatter creates a loud, ringing noise that breaks brittle, nonmagical objects; sunders a single solid, nonmagical object; or damages a crystalline creature.

Used as an area attack, shatter destroys nonmagical objects of crystal, glass, ceramic, or porcelain. All such objects within a 5-foot radius of the point of origin are smashed into dozens of pieces by the spell. Objects weighing more than 1 pound per your level are not affected, but all other objects of the appropriate composition are shattered.

Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level. Targeted against a crystalline creature (of any weight), shatter deals 1d6 points of sonic damage per caster level (maximum 10d6), with a Fortitude save for half damage.

Mind you, you'd probably get, the smoothie SO

1 LARGE smoothie
1 Cupholder
1 Twisty Straw

[Salanmander]

Um, pressure within a vessel is uniform...that is very simple physics.

Also, the guidelines for spells specifically give guidelines for what kind of damage ranges are acceptable for a given level of spells. More than a single die of damage is simply outside of the reach of a 0th level spell, no matter how you cut it.

That's not necessarily true if the fluid is moving...fluid dynamics are /complicated/.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

10 negative levels magic missle
Fell drain + Twin + Arcane thesis + CL 9= 5th level spell slot giving 10 negative levels no way to avoid except with SR . THAT is what an evoker does.

Oohhh, we're sorry, but that's only partially correct.

You can only gain one negative level per casting. So that's 2 negative levels on 5 different targets, not 10 negative levels on one target. Re-read the Fell Drain metamagic feat.

The combo you are looking for is Twin + Fell Drain + Repeating + Imbue Familiar (who does the same) + Quicken (for both) + Hail of Stones. 12 negative levels, no save, no SR, have a nice day.

There are some who enjoy spells which have saves and SR

For everyone else, there's Conjuration.

[Infernalbargain]

Actually you can only get up to gargantuan size bolts: collossal bolts cost 1gp and 6sp, too expensive for eschew materials.

Unless you have levels in Raumathari Battlemage.

[SowZ]

Mage hand. mess up their organs, as i don't think you can attend your organs unless you have a surgeon on hand. :smallamused:

Naw, as has been said, no line of site. But 5 pounds of pressure should be enough to pop out a human eye...

[Jack_Simth]

Naw, as has been said, no line of site. But 5 pounds of pressure should be enough to pop out a human eye...
The spell only affects unattended objects. In D&D, your eye is part of you, and (generally speaking) you're a creature, not an object.

[Maho-Tsukai]

I am not sure if this was already mentioned(too lazy to read this whole thread) but a level 1 wizard can essentially "pull a Lelouch" and make somebody fanatic long enough to give them one command. Charm Person(level 1) makes them friendly. Hypnotism(Also a level 1) can shift them from friendly to fanatic. Sure, it dose not last long at all but if Lelouch could get as far as he did with only being able to give somebody one command, I am sure a 16+ int wizard can do just as well, if not better.

[SowZ]

The spell only affects unattended objects. In D&D, your eye is part of you, and (generally speaking) you're a creature, not an object.

Ahh. I just thought of it and reread the spell description only to check. On another read, yes, it does specify unattended in target. Oh, well.

[Arundel]

That's not necessarily true if the fluid is moving...fluid dynamics are /complicated/.

Also unnecessary, as the trick we are debating fails on far far simpler basis. You cannot summon a liquid into pressure, at least not with a cantrip.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Also unnecessary, as the trick we are debating fails on far far simpler basis. You cannot summon a liquid into pressure, at least not with a cantrip.

Besides, why bother when you can just by an Everflowing Bottle?

[dextercorvia]

Launch Bolt is fun, but I prefer Launch Item. Chained Reach Launch Item targeting the CL vials of acid(or whatever) you are holding. More fun with Arcane Thesis.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Launch Bolt is fun, but I prefer Launch Item. Chained Reach Launch Item targeting the CL vials of acid(or whatever) you are holding. More fun with Arcane Thesis.

Don't forget Spellsurge/Greater Spellsurge and spell matrix...

[Curmudgeon]

Making the water jet pack: You create up to 2 gallons per level instantaneously.
You're confusing terms here: The D&D term "instantaneous" isn't related to "instantaneously" (the English word synonymous with "instantly"). Instead, instantaneous means that the duration specifies an instantiation (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/instantiation): a creation which is not magical thereafter (because the magic is done in an instant).

Create Water takes a standard action to instantiate that water.

[DoughGuy]

Do you know what 18 000 PSI would do to most containers light enough for you to aim it? Here's a hint. (http://www.mcdoa.org.uk/images/My_Explosion.jpg)

[Tyndmyr]

darrn but it still works against non-casters(i bet the tarrsque doesnt know shield). Now just need to find something for undead and construct

Force Missile Mage fixes any way of stopping the missiles themselves. Now, immunity to negative energy is still a problem...but I tend to solve this by just making a *lot* of duplication of the missiles via splitting and stacking metamagics. The sheer added damage becomes a problem for most targets.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Force Missile Mage fixes any way of stopping the missiles themselves. Now, immunity to negative energy is still a problem...but I tend to solve this by just making a *lot* of duplication of the missiles via splitting and stacking metamagics. The sheer added damage becomes a problem for most targets.

Oohhh.... sorry, but you STILL can't apply more than one negative level per spell per target, not just per missile.

In other words, it is in every way superior to use Hail of Stones, as it has SR: No, no attack roll, no saving throw, and it is an area effect.

[Tyndmyr]

Oohhh.... sorry, but you STILL can't apply more than one negative level per spell per target, not just per missile.

In other words, it is in every way superior to use Hail of Stones, as it has SR: No, no attack roll, no saving throw, and it is an area effect.

Well, per casting, no.

But when it's twinned, repeating, and you use arcane fusion and quicken to pump out a massive volume of them in a single round...everything targettable with missiles in LOS dies horrifically.

My favored method starts with a warmage going into FMM(edge actually becomes relevant when 8 spells a round is considered a "good start"), but the wizard entry is more traditional.

[dextercorvia]

Well, per casting, no.

But when it's twinned, repeating, and you use arcane fusion and quicken to pump out a massive volume of them in a single round...everything targettable with missiles in LOS dies horrifically.

My favored method starts with a warmage going into FMM(edge actually becomes relevant when 8 spells a round is considered a "good start"), but the wizard entry is more traditional.

Why is dropping a casting level (IIRC) and being forced into a PrC better than using a spell that can already do everything you want and affects an area (making it a candidate for Sculpt Spell) spreading the love around?

[Sudain]

The spell only affects unattended objects. In D&D, your eye is part of you, and (generally speaking) you're a creature, not an object.

Does this still count if the person is sleeping or helpless?

[Jack_Simth]

Does this still count if the person is sleeping or helpless?Unless you can specifically find a reason it doesn't, yes.

[Curmudgeon]

Does this still count if the person is sleeping or helpless?
Yes. People only change type and become objects when they're dead.

[Sudain]

Darn, no gouging out eyes while people are asleep or paralyzed.

[Flickerdart]

Darn, no gouging out eyes while people are asleep or paralyzed.
Why not? Just grab a knife and stab 'em.