Uncanny Dodge, flat footed and dodge bonuses

[Crake]

I recently came upon a situation where an invisible foe was attacking a character who had uncanny dodge and was using the total defence action.

Now I know that uncanny dodge lets you retain your dex bonus while flat footed, but you still remain flat footed, which would be a situation where you would normally lose your dex bonus to AC. Would this mean you lose the dodge bonus from total defence?

the wizards online glossary states "Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character’s Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have (for instance, you lose any dodge bonuses to AC when you’re flat-footed)." so I'm leaning towards yes you lose the dodge bonus, even though uncanny dodge allows you to retain your dex bonus.

[ragingrage]

I believe you would in fact lose the dodge bonus, though keep your dex bonus. I don't have the relevant book with me, but I'm pretty sure Uncanny Dodge makes no mention of also retaining any dodge bonus lost by being FF.

[Fox45]

Well a Dex bonus without a dodge bonus is better than no bonus at all.

[Crake]

I believe you would in fact lose the dodge bonus, though keep your dex bonus. I don't have the relevant book with me, but I'm pretty sure Uncanny Dodge makes no mention of also retaining any dodge bonus lost by being FF.

one could argue though, that uncanny dodge allowing you to retain your dex bonus means being flat footed is no longer a situation where you would lose your dex bonus, thus allowing you to also keep your dodge bonus. I'm playing devils advocate here for the inevitable argument with this player.

edit: also no, uncanny dodge does not mention anything about dodge bonuses, but that just makes it harder to make a ruling, since the above statement still stands

edit2: not sure how much this is to go by, but according to the nwn wiki, dodge bonuses are still lost even with uncanny dodge
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_class#Dodge_bonus

[DeAnno]

Uncanny dodge prevents your dex bonus from being negated. This means you still have a Dodge bonus. Anything that requires you be denied your dex bonus to AC (Sneak Attack due to flat footedness being the most predominant example) is prevented by Uncanny Dodge.

[LaughingRogue]

one could argue though, that uncanny dodge allowing you to retain your dex bonus means being flat footed is no longer a situation where you would lose your dex bonus, thus allowing you to also keep your dodge bonus. I'm playing devils advocate here for the inevitable argument with this player.

edit: also no, uncanny dodge does not mention anything about dodge bonuses, but that just makes it harder to make a ruling, since the above statement still stands

edit2: not sure how much this is to go by, but according to the nwn wiki, dodge bonuses are still lost even with uncanny dodge
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Armor_class#Dodge_bonus

I would make that argument.

[candycorn]

Any situation that would negate a character's Dexterity Bonus negates any dodge bonus the character has.

Note the bolded text. The rule is character specific; in other words, you look at the specific character to determine this.

So the question is: "is flat footed a condition that would negate this character's dex bonus?"

Answer: No. The character retains their dexterity bonus to AC in the situation of being flat-footed.

Therefore, they retain dodge bonuses. Basically, dodge bonuses only apply if you have the ability to duck and dodge the attack.

[LaughingRogue]

Any situation that would negate a character's Dexterity Bonus negates any dodge bonus the character has.

Note the bolded text. The rule is character specific; in other words, you look at the specific character to determine this.

So the question is: "is flat footed a condition that would negate this character's dex bonus?"

Answer: No. The character retains their dexterity bonus to AC in the situation of being flat-footed.

Therefore, they retain dodge bonuses. Basically, dodge bonuses only apply if you have the ability to duck and dodge the attack.

That's what I would have said if I wasn't lazy

[KillianHawkeye]

To add to this, it's probably not a great idea to take a parenthetical example as a hard and fast rule. Especially considering that d20 is an exception-based rule system.

[Crake]

Ok, so he retains dodge bonus to AC I guess. But he still qualifies as being flat footed for stuff like iaijutsu focus for example. Right?

[The Dark Fiddler]

Ok, so he retains dodge bonus to AC I guess. But he still qualifies as being flat footed for stuff like iaijutsu focus for example. Right?

If it says he needs to be flat-footed specifically, yes. If it says (like sneak attack) he needs to lose his dex bonus to AC, which often happens when flat-footed, then no, because he hasn't lost his dex bonus.

[Crake]

If it says he needs to be flat-footed specifically, yes. If it says (like sneak attack) he needs to lose his dex bonus to AC, which often happens when flat-footed, then no, because he hasn't lost his dex bonus.

lucky for me iaijutsu focus specifies flat footed, not lack of dex bonus to AC

[tyckspoon]

I recently came upon a situation where an invisible foe was attacking a character who had uncanny dodge and was using the total defence action.

Now I know that uncanny dodge lets you retain your dex bonus while flat footed, but you still remain flat footed, which would be a situation where you would normally lose your dex bonus to AC. Would this mean you lose the dodge bonus from total defence?


It's been alluded to, but it's important to note that "flat-footed" and "denied Dex to AC" are very different things. Flat-footed is a specific condition; it occurs primarily when you have not yet acted in a combat (being forced to make Balance checks without 5 ranks in Balance is probably the next most common, by way of the Grease spell or a bag of marbles.) It includes not getting Dex to AC, yes, but it also prevents you from taking Immediate actions or attacks of opportunity. It is also a trigger condition for some special abilities, Iajutsu Focus usually being the one people are concerned with.

Denied Dex allows Sneak Attacks and Sudden Strikes, but it is *not* flat-footed; a creature that is not allowed its Dex can still make AoO and use Immediate actions. Striking from invisibility denies Dex to the victim. It does *not* flat-foot him against your attacks, and will not enable Iajutsu Focus strikes.

[ericgrau]

Well for a more RAW answer:


Any situation or effect (except wearing armor) that negates a character's Dexterity bonus also negates any dodge bonuses the character may have.

I think if you keep your dex bonus then you also keep your dodge bonus. What's more is I couldn't find a situation that specifically ties flat-footedness to losing your dodge bonus, though maybe the rule exists. Otherwise losing your dodge bonus seems to always be linked to losing your dex bonus.

[tonberrian]

Ok, so he retains dodge bonus to AC I guess. But he still qualifies as being flat footed for stuff like iaijutsu focus for example. Right?

Well, that depends. There are actually a number of different forms of Uncanny Dodge around in 3.5, and a few of them say that the character simply cannot be caught flatfooted. I'm away from books at the moment, but I believe that the scout's (PHBII) or the Whisperknife's (RotW) read like that.

[Allanimal]

Well, that depends. There are actually a number of different forms of Uncanny Dodge around in 3.5, and a few of them say that the character simply cannot be caught flatfooted. I'm away from books at the moment, but I believe that the scout's (PHBII) or the Whisperknife's (RotW) read like that.

That is true, scout (complete adventurer, not phb2) says "can't be caught flat-footed" but also says to see the barbarian class feature in the PHB, so it is contradictory.

[tonberrian]

That is true, scout (complete adventurer, not phb2) says "can't be caught flat-footed" but also says to see the barbarian class feature in the PHB, so it is contradictory.

I believe the Whisperknife version doesn't reference anything.