How to build a soulknife well?

[maximus25]

I want to make a soulknife, but I heard they were awful. Are there any general builds for one, or is there a fix somewhere floating around for them? I tried google but the ones I've seen aren't too great.

[LaughingRogue]

http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872658/The_Soulknife_Handbook?post_id=338466522#338466522

This should help a bit.

[Darrin]

I thought the fix was Psychic Warrior with Soulbound Weapon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a)?

[Prime32]

I thought it was Dreamscarred Press's PF soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife).

[Grendus]

The short answer: you can't.

The Long answer: their main class feature is inferior to WBL, a psychic warrior ACF, a 4th level cleric spell, or artificer infusions. Their other class features can be replaced with feats from the XPH. With some optimization, they can be decent. A better bet would be to pull up the pathfinder soulknife, which was significantly improved, or a homebrew fix. It's a great concept, but in practice it's just not that good

[Psyren]

As Prime said, use the PF Soulknife instead.

[Jude_H]

Options that come to mind:

Multiclass options:
Soulknife/Soulbow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060403a&page=2)/Archery PrC for ranged combat. This is actually something the Soulknife is decent for; Soulbow gets a funky Base Attack progression, wisdom to damage (typically stacked with Zen Archery), relevant bonus feats.
Soulknife/Swordsage is decent, more due to its stealth and maneuvers. It would basically be a Swordsage with some dead levels for the brain-sword thing, but it would hit the theme and wouldn't suck at it.
Soulknife/Monk/Atavist might be interesting. Either Shape Mind Blade (Unarmed Strike) or the Flowing Blade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20050110a) feat might give it a bit of extra synergy.
In the same monkish spirit, Monk 4/Soulknife 2/Psionic Fist 10/Kensai 4 would be like a Soulknife in terms of being psychic, stealthy and having a mind sword, but would have actual meaningful abilities outside of having that mind sword. The same feats would help.
Soulknife 6/Warmind 10/Kensai 4 is another decent option. Shape a two-handed weapon, use Warmind powers and class abilities, and you should end up with a solid (if not astoundingly powerful) melee character.


Variant Soulknifes:
The Psionics Handbook Soulknife (3.0) takes some conversion, but is a better general approach to the theme - a PrC advancing Manifesting alongside the soulblade and a solid skills base.
The PF Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) is actually good at what it does.
At worst, you can add the Mind's Eye Soulknife variants (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a). They don't completely fix the Soulknife, but they take it in the right direction.

Class Alternatives:
Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) or Lurk with Hidden Talent (Call Weaponry) and the Link Power feats.
Incarnate with Incarnate Weapon soulmeld is much more flexible, and probably better in melee than most soulknife builds, despite its 1/2 BA and d6 HD.
Psychic Warrior with Soulbound Weapon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070214a) ACF is more powerful and remains generally thematic, but its PP are extremely limiting.
Cleric with Ice Axe, Druid with Flame Blade, Gish with Scimitar of Sand or any other 3/4+ BA caster with a similar spell (dumpster dive for sources or just homebrew the thing) would have the same general result, but would be much more powerful. Maybe too much.
Warlock with Eldritch Glaive would be similar, but more arcane than psychic.
DragoonWraith's Swordmage might appear a bit on the strong end (it's a lot like a canned Sorcadin, but the only area it might break the game is in combat numbers), but it matches the Soulknife pretty nicely in concept. Depending on optimization level, it could be an interesting option to put on the table.


Alternate approaches:
Dreamscarred Press's Mind Blade Feats (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/mind-blade-feats) can be tagged onto any melee class for better results than the Soulknife class delivers.


...I'm sure I'm missing some things, but maybe one of these could help.

[wuwuwu]

The Long answer: their main class feature is inferior to WBL, a psychic warrior ACF

The Psychic Warrior ACF is worse than the soulknife's "inferior to WBL" progression.

Also, at 10th level, a Soulknife gets a +4 equivalent cost weapon, which costs 32,000gp. WBL at 10th level is 49,000, and WBL is supposed to include ALL the wealth up until that point.

That means that instead of buying fancy scrolls and potions and belts and armors, the character is saving up solely to buy a weapon faster than the Soulknife, unless I am missing something here?

Actually, I may be missing something. Is upgrading an item from +X to +Y cheaper? If it's a "subtract the difference" thing, it seems to be coming out at 4,000gp MORE expensive (but I'm an idiot sometimes).

So, Soulknife worse than WBL. Misinformation, or am I totally wrong? When I first heard that I went and checked it all out myself, so I'm curious if my research is wrong.

PS: A Soulknife that goes into Illumine Soul gets a +10 equivalent weapon by... 17th level I think? A non-Soulknife could get that at... 15th level by WBL. If they never spent any money on anything else. I did this out before, but I'm away from book so I can't remember the exact number.
And the only thing they lose is "Throw Mindblade".

[mabriss lethe]

The Psy War ACF is far better than the soulknife mindblade.

1. You have a wider selection of starting weaponry without needing to delve into feat taxes.

2. You have unrestricted access to any magical enhancement available to a psywar of your level. (unlike the soulknife who only has access to a small, subpar list of enhancements)

3. You may change out those enhancements each time you summon the soulbound weapon. (mind blades take 8 hours to reconfigure.)

4. You still have a large PP reserve and a rather impressive list of psionic powers that the soulknife lacks completely.

[Arundel]

Also, the 3.5 soulknife may or may not actually have a manifester level on its own. We spent like 15 pages debating it a few months ago and I don't know if it was definitively resolved. Check with your DM.

[wuwuwu]

The Psy War ACF is far better than the soulknife mindblade.

1. You have a wider selection of starting weaponry without needing to delve into feat taxes.

True



2. You have unrestricted access to any magical enhancement available to a psywar of your level. (unlike the soulknife who only has access to a small, subpar list of enhancements)

You can only ever have a maximum of a +8 total weapon enhancement. +5 enhancement at 20th level, plus pay an extra 15pp for up to a +3 enhancement special ability. 16pp, assuming 18 wisdom (unlikely on a PsyWar, really) is around 1/10th of your daily power points. You can manifest your soulbound weapon 10 times per day, for 20 minutes at a time, at 20th level, assuming you use no other powers.
Granted, you should probably only need to use it 3-5 times a day, but that's still 48-80 out of ~160 pp on just your weapon.



3. You may change out those enhancements each time you summon the soulbound weapon. (mind blades take 8 hours to reconfigure.)

True. But as noted above, the cost is prohibitive, especially if your battle requires multiple manifestations.



4. You still have a large PP reserve and a rather impressive list of psionic powers that the soulknife lacks completely.
True, but a lot of that reserve is going towards powering their weapon.

[MammonAzrael]

As the others have said, use the other options available to you. If you wanted to make one with a monk-ish feel, I offer my own work, the ascetic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=199227). Otherwise the Psychic Warrior ACF is the standard way to go.

[Jude_H]

The Psychic Warrior ACF is worse than the soulknife's "inferior to WBL" progression.
The point isn't a weapon upgrade. The point is an overall character upgrade, while maintaining the Soulknife's one line of flavor text.

[Psyren]

The Psychic Warrior ACF is worse than the soulknife's "inferior to WBL" progression.

If you want a +9 weapon that badly, just buy one. So long as you can get +5 enhancement you're capped pre-epic, so having 1 less point for the ability pool is hardly a deal-breaker. Meanwhile, you have much more useful powers and feats. And once you bring the PF Psywar in to compare to the PF Soulknife, the gap grows even more.

[wuwuwu]

If you want a +9 weapon that badly, just buy one. So long as you can get +5 enhancement you're capped pre-epic, so having 1 less point for the ability pool is hardly a deal-breaker. Meanwhile, you have much more useful powers and feats. And once you bring the PF Psywar in to compare to the PF Soulknife, the gap grows even more.


The point isn't a weapon upgrade. The point is an overall character upgrade, while maintaining the Soulknife's one line of flavor text.

It's not so much the weapon itself either, it's the fact that now you can spend that money on other things. Like wondrous items, armor, potions, etc.

Sure, not quite as effective as powers/feats, but still useful. Very useful, if you're playing a Soulknife.

[darksolitaire]

0) Be of any good bab class.
1) Be a Kensai, and have +10 Weapon at level 15. Or take Ancestral Relic feat for laughs. Take both and play lawful good character and name your two short swords as Law and Justice. Or use leveled item.
2) Ask the party caster cast Extended Greater Magic Weapon to your already impressive weapon(s). Thank him afterwards.
3) Take the feats Quick Draw, Hidden Talent, Psionic Weapon and Greater Psionic Weapon, if you think your character is too good.
4) If you want to throw your weapon, try Bloodstorm Blade.
5) Get some Sneak Attack, if you're missing psychic strike.

Hows this?:smallamused:

[Psyren]

It's not so much the weapon itself either, it's the fact that now you can spend that money on other things. Like wondrous items, armor, potions, etc.

But the SW Psywar doesn't have to spend that money either. Again, the difference in effectiveness between a +8 and a +9 weapon is miniscule.

So while you can still buy a +9 if you want one, it's not a priority, and you get the same WBL freed up while also having access to powers and feats.

[wuwuwu]

But the SW Psywar doesn't have to spend that money either. Again, the difference in effectiveness between a +8 and a +9 weapon is miniscule.

So while you can still buy a +9 if you want one, it's not a priority, and you get the same WBL freed up while also having access to powers and feats.

Touche, I do see your point.

I still believe calling the soulknife's weapon "inferior to WBL", while at the same time saying the psychic warrior's soulbound weapon isn't, is misinformation. It's not the weapon that makes the psychic warrior superior, it's everything else.

[Psyren]

Touche, I do see your point.

I still believe calling the soulknife's weapon "inferior to WBL", while at the same time saying the psychic warrior's soulbound weapon isn't, is misinformation. It's not the weapon that makes the psychic warrior superior, it's everything else.

Did anyone say that? I sure didn't. I agree with you that it's the other stuff that makes a SW Psywar superior.

But the WBL savings are difficult to quantify even if you take Soulbound Weapon out of the equation. As a simple example - Soulknives need their WBL to do things like fly, short-range teleportation, heal themselves (HP/abilities) and survive in hostile environments. Psywars either don't need items to do these things at all, can use much cheaper items (like power stones) to accomplish the same methods, or can craft their own for cheaper still.

[wuwuwu]

But the WBL savings are difficult to quantify even if you take Soulbound Weapon out of the equation. As a simple example - Soulknives need their WBL to do things like fly, short-range teleportation, heal themselves (HP/abilities) and survive in hostile environments. Psywars either don't need items to do these things at all, can use much cheaper items (like power stones) to accomplish the same methods, or can craft their own for cheaper still.

Actually, that's something that I think would be interesting as a soulknife fix/ACF, letting it craft items like the warlock. It makes about as much thematic sense to me as warlocks crafting (warlocks use pacts with supernatural beings to craft magic items, soulknives use the power of their minds!)

[wuwuwu]

Apologies for the double post, but I'd figure I'd share my favored Soulknife build, as well. I think it's built pretty well (I'm not the best optimizer, so if anybody could note any tweaks where it would improve, that would be great).
I'm pretty biased but I like to think this build is tier 4, MAYBE tier 3, by using Skin of the Construct to give it numerous utility abilities in and out of combat. Including the ability to fly, swim, move faster, and gain bonus feats.
Note: It only works if you use the RAW interpretation of Soulknife as a psionic class, and that manifester level = psionic class level. You WILL have to ask your DM about his personal interpretation of it, because there are some people ('sup Psyren :smalltongue:) who (understandably) reject that interpretation.

Synad (Complete Psionics) Soulknife

1st level - Soulknife with Hidden Talent ACF from Mind's eye, for the Astral Construct power. Feat = Psionic Weapon
3rd level - Feat = Skin of the Construct (CPsi)
6th level - Feat = Enhanced Synad Multitask (CPsi)
9th level - Feat = Deep Impact
12th level - Feat = Swift Mind Strike
13-18th level take as Illumine Soul, finish off with the last 2 levels of Soulknife

Feat choices: whatever, really. Maybe Psionic Meditation to make gaining focus faster, Mind cleave to keep your psychic strike charged.

Keep your armor as powerful as possible. Keep it as enhanced as most people keep their weapon. Spend your extra money on potions/utility items like Belt of Giant's Strength or whatever suits your needs.

Your Synad multitask let's you either gain focus or gain you psychic strike as a swift action 1/day (2/day at 6), and at 12th you can do it 3/day, eliminating *SOME* of the issue with soulknives not being able to use their mobility in combat. Getting mind cleave let's you keep it charged indefinitely by only attacking weakened enemies or their low level minions.

Illumine Soul is there because it gives you a whole bunch of benefits (mostly specific to fighting undead) and the only thing you lose is the kinda crappy Multiple Throw (well, everything about the class is kinda crappy).

And finally, Skin of the Construct. It's a cruddy feat, right? Except it let's you fly, swim, burrow, gives you extra hp, gives you bonus feats, improves your AC, or your speed? This is like the ultimate utility ability. It only costs 1pp, as well, and last's as long as your level! It's not much out of combat at 3rd level, but a lot of combats don't last more than 3-4 rounds (at least for my group)

Eventually, you'll have a lot of out of combat utility as well. Fly over that chasm! Run to warn the outpost of an enemy attack, swim across a lake in the blink of an eye!

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The Psychic Warrior ACF is worse than the soulknife's "inferior to WBL" progression.

Also, at 10th level, a Soulknife gets a +4 equivalent cost weapon, which costs 32,000gp. WBL at 10th level is 49,000, and WBL is supposed to include ALL the wealth up until that point.

That means that instead of buying fancy scrolls and potions and belts and armors, the character is saving up solely to buy a weapon faster than the Soulknife, unless I am missing something here?

Actually, I may be missing something. Is upgrading an item from +X to +Y cheaper? If it's a "subtract the difference" thing, it seems to be coming out at 4,000gp MORE expensive (but I'm an idiot sometimes).

So, Soulknife worse than WBL. Misinformation, or am I totally wrong? When I first heard that I went and checked it all out myself, so I'm curious if my research is wrong.

PS: A Soulknife that goes into Illumine Soul gets a +10 equivalent weapon by... 17th level I think? A non-Soulknife could get that at... 15th level by WBL. If they never spent any money on anything else. I did this out before, but I'm away from book so I can't remember the exact number.
And the only thing they lose is "Throw Mindblade".

A masterworked weapon is cheap. A casting of GMW is nothing more than a spell slot.

You now have a weapon which is free of charge, and just as powerful as the Soulknife's weapon.

Have a nice day.