Asmodeus

[Sarco_Phage]

I don't own any Pathfinder or 4E books, and I'm curious: how does Asmodeus' role/character and realm differ from his presentation in 3.X in Pathfinder and 4E? I've heard about him being a deity in 4E, but is that a retcon or merely the logical transition of him from ruler of the 9 to God of Tyranny?

[Unseenmal]

Pathfinder takes that road. He is the God of Tyranny, Slavery, Pride and Contracts.

[Sarco_Phage]

Does he start out as a god, or was he an ascended Fiend?

[Doorhandle]

I don't know, but he DID kill his good counterpart, so I think that counts for something extra.

[Unseenmal]

Does he start out as a god, or was he an ascended Fiend?

According to the PF Core Rulebook and the Gods and Magic book, he is a god. In Gods and Magic, his section begins with "Some say that when the world was forged, Asmodeus wrote the contract of creation, agreed to by the gods."

[Callista]

Yeah, but he did that in 3.5, too. Instrumental in creating the lower planes, etc. I think it's in that one 3.5 book that's all about the Nine Hells... Which, for the life of me, I can't remember the title of. Dangit, stupid brain.

[RedWarrior0]

Yeah, but he did that in 3.5, too. Instrumental in creating the lower planes, etc. I think it's in that one 3.5 book that's all about the Nine Hells... Which, for the life of me, I can't remember the title of. Dangit, stupid brain.

Fiendish Codex II?

[Axinian]

Right, but in 3.5 he was created by the gods and was their servant for a time. In Pathfinder, the first gods arose from "sparks dancing in the emptiness of the universe" or something like that. Asmodeus was one of the very first entities to spring into being.

[Callista]

Fiendish Codex II?Yeah...

If you see my brain, please return it to me. :smalltongue:

[RndmNumGen]

Yeah...

If you see my brain, please return it to me. :smalltongue:


Braaaiiiiinnnsss.....

*Nom*

Brains....

*Shambles Off*

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Does Asmodeus still owe Pazuzu that favor in Pathfinder/4e or has that been paid yet?

[0nimaru]

I'm recalling, with no sources, that in 4E Asmodeus was an ascended Archdevil. This may be setting specific Asmodeus, but he took some great power and shunted the Abyss spatially *Away* from everything, and brought the hells into the Astral plane or some such.

I haven't a clue what he is in PF.

[KillianHawkeye]

In 4E, Asmodeus was an archangel who served some nameless god. I believe he was tasked with guarding Tharizdun's prison, but he eventually got tired of that (or it corrupted him, I forget) and he went and killed his master and took his powers and domain. Asmodeus' ruby rod is actually made from a small piece of the shard of pure Evil that created the Abyss, and his primary goal is to get the rest of it.

Also, apparently Asmodeus and Pazuzu have been running the entire Blood War as a Xanatos Gambit just to get the shard of Evil. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with that favor you mentioned, Ryu.

[RedWarrior0]

Also, apparently Asmodeus and Pazuzu have been running the entire Blood War as a Xanatos Gambit just to get the shard of Evil. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with that favor you mentioned, Ryu.

Until Pun-Pun the Great deceived Pazuzu into granting him the keys to ULTIMATE POWAH!!!

IDE/THEORY: Pazuzu and Asmodeus are two separate bodies of a Dvati.

[Unseenmal]

Yeah, but he did that in 3.5, too. Instrumental in creating the lower planes, etc. I think it's in that one 3.5 book that's all about the Nine Hells... Which, for the life of me, I can't remember the title of. Dangit, stupid brain.

Sorry I was gone for so long, but I am at work today. I went back the Gods and Magic PF book and found an entry in the book that tells that Asmodeus was a god from the start in PF. Ironically, it's on page 2....It states that "It is known that during the dawn of mortal life, the earliest gods battled Rovagug to prevent him from destroying all creation. Among those known to have opposed him were Abadar, Apsu, Asmodeus, Calistris, etc...." I won't list all of the names....Rovagug is a primeval being that tried to undo the gods creation of the verse.

So if this little story is true, then Asmodeus was indeed a god from the start in PF.

They seemed to have created another god in the vein of Asmodeus... Lamashtu was a demon that ascended to godhood either by drawing power out of her slain foes or by sacrificing a million of other demons in a ritual. At least that's what the book says.

[137beth]

In 3.5 manual of the planes, it says he might possess the power of a true deity. I don't have FCII, does it actually stat asmodeus?

[tyckspoon]

In 3.5 manual of the planes, it says he might possess the power of a true deity. I don't have FCII, does it actually stat asmodeus?

Just an Aspect, which leaves plenty of space to make Asmodeus himself whatever you want him to be. The Aspect doesn't have Divine Rank, tho (probably because if they did give him Divine Rank they'd have to glut the book with reprinting like 20 pages of Deities and Demigods to explain what it meant) so whatever Asmodeus is, we know he's not using his Aspect as a Proxy.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Also, apparently Asmodeus and Pazuzu have been running the entire Blood War as a Xanatos Gambit just to get the shard of Evil. I'm not sure if this has anything to do with that favor you mentioned, Ryu.

Well that is how Asmodeus obtained that shard of evil. He struck up a deal with Pazuzu. A favor to-be-paid for a shard for the shard of evil. So Pazuzu dove into the depths of the abyss and fractured off the piece and brought it back to Asmodeus. I was wondering if that favor had been paid.

[jguy]

If I remember, Asmodeus is not only a God in PF, but he is one of the first two gods in existence. First murderer too as he killed his brother.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Does he start out as a god, or was he an ascended Fiend?
In Pathfinder, not only did Asmodeus start out as a god, but as the first god, who created fundamental concepts of reality. He started as one of the First, a primordial being who had slowly grown and gained consciousness from the motes of life that appeared from the Seal, the first thing in existence, a thing of eternal and constant light. Two of the First became incredibly close, and the one who would later become Asmodeus discovered a strange sigil, creating meaning in the universe, and allowing symbols to come into being as a concept. Its brother discovered something else, and created the first intelligent sound, and through that, speech. That first also created the first name, calling himself Ihys. Ihys' brother, the creator of symbols, lovingly crafted the name Asmodeus for himself.

After this, Ihys and Asmodeus began to shape the newborn universe to their ideals, other motes taking on appearances and personalities similar to them and creating the concept of order. Ihys, however, made a discovery that would shatter the harmony of this epoch: he learned how to create life. He invested a portion of himself into one of the motes he was shaping, to try and get it to move. And move it did. But it also moved of its own accord, exploring and experiencing as it willed, rather than by Ihys' command. And it brought him great joy, so great that he had to share it with his brother and the others. The two became vigorous creators, filling the universe with so many wonders that the Seal itself seemed to lose its siginificance as the center of the universe.

But then they found that they were not alone. There were things from outside the reality the brothers had created, the primeval fiends, the lords of Chaos, and the elemental beings, slipping through the cracks in the perfect universe that had been created, as well as other beings who claimed similar origins to Asmodeus and Ihys. Over time, the brothers' creations began to evolve and change, eventually becoming aware of Ihys and Asmodeus and worshiping them. Ihys sought Asmodeus' counsel about it, and Asmodeus declared that these beings were their servants, nothing more and nothing less. They were the First, and all others were less. Ihys was consoled for a time, but he decided to experiment once again. He visited his favorite world, and bathed it in his pleasure and gratification, and then destroyed it. He felt all the pain and terror the millions of creations on that world felt, and then watched as their life sparks emerged. Many returned to him, accepting it as his unknowable wisdom. But others scattered throughout creation, some turning to Asmodeus, others seeking out their other kin, and others disappeared into infinity. It was the first act of choice, of free will, something that pleased Ihys more than anything. And that act was what created a rift between the two brothers that would never heal.

Asmodeus was furious at what Ihys had done. He took him by the arm and showed him the perfect worlds they'd created over eons being despoiled or destroyed by the loosed creations of Ihys. Insane beings abusing his beloved works, entire worlds reduced to cinders. It made Ihys weep. Asmodeus brought him back to the seal and spoke to Ihys of forgiveness and why they, as the First, were the only ones allowed to have the powers of free will and choice, and how one act of chaos had irrevocably scarred all of creation. Ihys was nearly broken, when one of his lesser kin returned to him. She thanked him, as several of the essences that had left sought shelter with her. She promised to protect those Ihys had set lose among the worlds and with them continue his great work of free will. Ihys tried to talk her down, saying that there were things she didn't know and would never be have the strength of mind to know. The mote agreed, but said that there was much beneath the notice of Asmodeus and Ihys that she'd long come to accept. She'd traveled the universe and experienced both great glory and despair. That was just the way things were, and marvels should not be left uncreated just for the shadows they might one day cast. And so she departed to tell the other worlds of Ihys' glory and the gift of free will.

This convinced Ihys to come back and continue his work, which horrified Asmodeus as now the lesser kin of theirs were starting to be corrupted by his radical ideals. He threatened and pleaded with Ihys not to violate the order they had made, but Ihys refused, and in a rage Asmodeus struck his brother, committing the first act of violence the universe had ever known. Ihys fled, injured, and Asmodeus fled too, shocked at himself for what he'd done. But it was too late to undo it. The first war between order and chaos had begun. Asmodeus and Ihys both had champions, but Ihys' greatest champion was the mote who had comforted him in his despair, now calling herself Sarenrae, goddess of the sun, redemption, honesty and healing.

The war raged on and on for countless time, but finally on a small and insignificant world far from the Seal, the two brothers met again. Asmodeus sorrowfully reached out with one hand and pulled his brother close, and in the other hand manifested a great spear that he thrust through his brother. Betrayed, Ihys gazed at his brother one last time as his life spark gave way, exploding in a conflagration that destroyed souls and gods, a conflagration that the entire multiverse felt, and all knew what Asmodeus had done. Truly alone for the first time, Asmodeus cried for the first and last time. It was there that Sarenrae found him, and discovered there was something in her stronger than the order and chaos her progenitors had created: her own sense of right and wrong. She demanded Asmodeus yield to her, and he siezed her by the throat. He was prepared to send her to join Ihys in death, but he saw something in her eyes. Fear, weakness, insignificance, but also the truth of the age. So he let her go, declaring that she and her kind had won, but he would remain and one day he would return in the age when all their works and beloved creations would turn on them, and reclaim what was his. After this, he and nine lost souls retreated to a harsh realm far from the Seal and the young gods, and Asmodeus shaped the realm into the fearful pit that is now called Hell, a place to house and torment the nine souls he'd collected and the others that would inevitably come: a monument to the old ways of perfect order.

That was the end of the story in the book, but Asmodeus' involvement in the cosmic story did not end there. When the Rough Beast, Rovagug, threatened to destroy Golarion, Asmodeus united with his old enemy, Sarenrae, to prevent it from doing so. The two battled Rovagug and cast him into the Pit of Gormuz, and there Sarenrae laid down her fire to burn him eternally, while Asmodeus created the wards that would bind the Rough Beast there for eternity. Asmodeus has the only key to this prison which he guards very carefully. Asmodeus has since been the only evil god many of the good or neutral gods are willing to cooperate with, both out of respect for his role in Creation and the binding of Rovagug, and because he's just that slick of a negotiator.

He's a marvelously complex figure in Pathfinder, to say the least.

[Analytica]

In Pathfinder, not only did Asmodeus start out as a god, but as the first god, who created fundamental concepts of reality. He started as one of the First, a primordial being who had slowly grown and gained consciousness from the motes of life that appeared from the Seal, the first thing in existence, a thing of eternal and constant light. Two of the First became incredibly close, and the one who would later become Asmodeus discovered a strange sigil, creating meaning in the universe, and allowing symbols to come into being as a concept. Its brother discovered something else, and created the first intelligent sound, and through that, speech. That first also created the first name, calling himself Ihys. Ihys' brother, the creator of symbols, lovingly crafted the name Asmodeus for himself.

After this, Ihys and Asmodeus began to shape the newborn universe to their ideals, other motes taking on appearances and personalities similar to them and creating the concept of order. Ihys, however, made a discovery that would shatter the harmony of this epoch: he learned how to create life. He invested a portion of himself into one of the motes he was shaping, to try and get it to move. And move it did. But it also moved of its own accord, exploring and experiencing as it willed, rather than by Ihys' command. And it brought him great joy, so great that he had to share it with his brother and the others. The two became vigorous creators, filling the universe with so many wonders that the Seal itself seemed to lose its siginificance as the center of the universe.

But then they found that they were not alone. There were things from outside the reality the brothers had created, the primeval fiends, the lords of Chaos, and the elemental beings, slipping through the cracks in the perfect universe that had been created, as well as other beings who claimed similar origins to Asmodeus and Ihys. Over time, the brothers' creations began to evolve and change, eventually becoming aware of Ihys and Asmodeus and worshiping them. Ihys sought Asmodeus' counsel about it, and Asmodeus declared that these beings were their servants, nothing more and nothing less. They were the First, and all others were less. Ihys was consoled for a time, but he decided to experiment once again. He visited his favorite world, and bathed it in his pleasure and gratification, and then destroyed it. He felt all the pain and terror the millions of creations on that world felt, and then watched as their life sparks emerged. Many returned to him, accepting it as his unknowable wisdom. But others scattered throughout creation, some turning to Asmodeus, others seeking out their other kin, and others disappeared into infinity. It was the first act of choice, of free will, something that pleased Ihys more than anything. And that act was what created a rift between the two brothers that would never heal.

Asmodeus was furious at what Ihys had done. He took him by the arm and showed him the perfect worlds they'd created over eons being despoiled or destroyed by the loosed creations of Ihys. Insane beings abusing his beloved works, entire worlds reduced to cinders. It made Ihys weep. Asmodeus brought him back to the seal and spoke to Ihys of forgiveness and why they, as the First, were the only ones allowed to have the powers of free will and choice, and how one act of chaos had irrevocably scarred all of creation. Ihys was nearly broken, when one of his lesser kin returned to him. She thanked him, as several of the essences that had left sought shelter with her. She promised to protect those Ihys had set lose among the worlds and with them continue his great work of free will. Ihys tried to talk her down, saying that there were things she didn't know and would never be have the strength of mind to know. The mote agreed, but said that there was much beneath the notice of Asmodeus and Ihys that she'd long come to accept. She'd traveled the universe and experienced both great glory and despair. That was just the way things were, and marvels should not be left uncreated just for the shadows they might one day cast. And so she departed to tell the other worlds of Ihys' glory and the gift of free will.

This convinced Ihys to come back and continue his work, which horrified Asmodeus as now the lesser kin of theirs were starting to be corrupted by his radical ideals. He threatened and pleaded with Ihys not to violate the order they had made, but Ihys refused, and in a rage Asmodeus struck his brother, committing the first act of violence the universe had ever known. Ihys fled, injured, and Asmodeus fled too, shocked at himself for what he'd done. But it was too late to undo it. The first war between order and chaos had begun. Asmodeus and Ihys both had champions, but Ihys' greatest champion was the mote who had comforted him in his despair, now calling herself Sarenrae, goddess of the sun, redemption, honesty and healing.

The war raged on and on for countless time, but finally on a small and insignificant world far from the Seal, the two brothers met again. Asmodeus sorrowfully reached out with one hand and pulled his brother close, and in the other hand manifested a great spear that he thrust through his brother. Betrayed, Ihys gazed at his brother one last time as his life spark gave way, exploding in a conflagration that destroyed souls and gods, a conflagration that the entire multiverse felt, and all knew what Asmodeus had done. Truly alone for the first time, Asmodeus cried for the first and last time. It was there that Sarenrae found him, and discovered there was something in her stronger than the order and chaos her progenitors had created: her own sense of right and wrong. She demanded Asmodeus yield to her, and he siezed her by the throat. He was prepared to send her to join Ihys in death, but he saw something in her eyes. Fear, weakness, insignificance, but also the truth of the age. So he let her go, declaring that she and her kind had won, but he would remain and one day he would return in the age when all their works and beloved creations would turn on them, and reclaim what was his. After this, he and nine lost souls retreated to a harsh realm far from the Seal and the young gods, and Asmodeus shaped the realm into the fearful pit that is now called Hell, a place to house and torment the nine souls he'd collected and the others that would inevitably come: a monument to the old ways of perfect order.


It should be noted that this story is what he claims happened, though. Though there is likely truth there, I wouldn't consider cultists of Asmodeus an entirely unbiased source. :smallbiggrin:

[KillianHawkeye]

Well that is how Asmodeus obtained that shard of evil. He struck up a deal with Pazuzu. A favor to-be-paid for a shard for the shard of evil. So Pazuzu dove into the depths of the abyss and fractured off the piece and brought it back to Asmodeus. I was wondering if that favor had been paid.

Was it that way in earlier editions? :smallconfused: I thought the shard of Pure Evil was a new thing in 4E. At least, I've never heard about it before 4E.

[Psyren]

Note that there are minor variations depending on setting too. 4e Asmodeus also went from archfiend to deity in Faerun, but the "how" was altered to Mystra being assassinated by a joint effort between Cyric and Shar (resulting in the Spellplague), her divine realm of Dweomerheart being destroyed, and Azuth being forcibly ejected to plummet into Hell. Azuth landed in front of the Red Dude himself and was quickly devoured, causing Asmo to gain his divine spark.

What I find confusing though, is that Bane is still around in 4e Faerun as well. I know that LE doesn't exist in 4e per se, but their portfolios are pretty similar all the same, what with all the tyranny stuff and disdain for chaos.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Was it that way in earlier editions? :smallconfused: I thought the shard of Pure Evil was a new thing in 4E. At least, I've never heard about it before 4E.

I may be mixing my editions but I am 99.99% sure that it is pre-4e.

[Sarco_Phage]

What I find confusing though, is that Bane is still around in 4e Faerun as well. I know that LE doesn't exist in 4e per se, but their portfolios are pretty similar all the same, what with all the tyranny stuff and disdain for chaos.

Hey, that could be a good adventure seed in itself. You really think Bane and Asmodeus are willing to let a portfolio overlap stand?

[Psyren]

Hey, that could be a good adventure seed in itself. You really think Bane and Asmodeus are willing to let a portfolio overlap stand?

The real question is how Ao feels about it :smallwink: but I agree, could be an interesting clash.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

It should be noted that this story is what he claims happened, though. Though there is likely truth there, I wouldn't consider cultists of Asmodeus an entirely unbiased source. :smallbiggrin:

Actually, according to the text, the Books of the Damned aren't writings of the church of Asmodeus, which makes sense as later volumes discuss demons (Lords of Chaos) and soon there'll be one talking about daemons. The Books of the Damned were actually written by an angel by the name of Tabris, under the orders of Heaven to research the nature of the multiverse. They were not pleased with his findings about evil, and thus exiled him from Heaven. They say he still wanders the multiverse, and his tomes have found their way into the hands of mortals. Some groups even claim Tabris as their inspiration, like the Order of the Palatine Eye, a secretive but potent force for good in Ustalav:

In the name of the hosts and the seven mounting steps of Heaven, from which springs the good and the right. In the name of the Orders, Powers, Thrones and Choirs, who witness all above and below. In the name of the Lords of the Empyrean, who measure all knowledge and see through lies. And in the name of the first great Lord, he who was taken and whose people know sorrow for him still, I swear that what follows are the visions of my travels, the thoughts of souls and the soulless, the nature of creation and the truth unto all things.

--Tabris
Hard to argue with an oath that serious, no?

So no, this isn't a piece of Chelish propaganda painting Asmodeus as a good guy bringing order to the multiverse even if he has to choke the crap out of it. It's an angel recording the unbiased story. Note that the story itself doesn't judge Asmodeus for what he did. It just says everything in the multiverse knew what he did. Judgment of Asmodeus didn't come until Sarenrae challenged him, since good and evil didn't exist until that moment. It's a lot more complex than you give it credit for.

[Alleran]

The real question is how Ao feels about it :smallwink: but I agree, could be an interesting clash.
Ao retired to a country estate near Sigil, along with Krynn's High God. Nobody's watching the shop now.

[Zeuy]

Actually, according to the text, the Books of the Damned aren't writings of the church of Asmodeus, which makes sense as later volumes discuss demons (Lords of Chaos) and soon there'll be one talking about daemons. The Books of the Damned were actually written by an angel by the name of Tabris, under the orders of Heaven to research the nature of the multiverse. They were not pleased with his findings about evil, and thus exiled him from Heaven. They say he still wanders the multiverse, and his tomes have found their way into the hands of mortals. Some groups even claim Tabris as their inspiration, like the Order of the Palatine Eye, a secretive but potent force for good in Ustalav:

Hard to argue with an oath that serious, no?

So no, this isn't a piece of Chelish propaganda painting Asmodeus as a good guy bringing order to the multiverse even if he has to choke the crap out of it. It's an angel recording the unbiased story. Note that the story itself doesn't judge Asmodeus for what he did. It just says everything in the multiverse knew what he did. Judgment of Asmodeus didn't come until Sarenrae challenged him, since good and evil didn't exist until that moment. It's a lot more complex than you give it credit for.

Unless he was corrupted...they kicked him out for something. :D

[Archpaladin Zousha]

Then it's kind of Heaven's own fault, since he was researching the Lower Planes at their behest.

[Sarco_Phage]

Then it's kind of Heaven's own fault, since he was researching the Lower Planes at their behest.

That would be part of the tragedy, yes.

[Mari01]

WHERE IS ALL THIS INFORMATION? My group is doing a few playthroughs of the new evil campaign called Way of the Wicked. Listening to this stuff is giving me a new-found respect for the pathfinder cosmology.

[Calanon]

The real question is how Ao feels about it :smallwink: but I agree, could be an interesting clash.


Ao retired to a country estate near Sigil, along with Krynn's High God. Nobody's watching the shop now.

To Simplify, He wouldn't care as long as they follow the rules... :smallamused:


Then it's kind of Heaven's own fault, since he was researching the Lower Planes at their behest.

You have no idea how happy it made me to read this comment... It said "Its kind of Heaven's own fault" but what I read was "Heaven was wrong!" :smallamused:

...Manly tears were shed... :smallfrown::smallsmile:

[Ashram]

WHERE IS ALL THIS INFORMATION? My group is doing a few playthroughs of the new evil campaign called Way of the Wicked. Listening to this stuff is giving me a new-found respect for the pathfinder cosmology.

Asmodeus' story is in the Pathfinder Chronicles: Book of the Damned, Vol. 1: Princes of Darkness.

[Vegan Zombie]

In 3.5 manual of the planes, it says he might possess the power of a true deity. I don't have FCII, does it actually stat asmodeus?

In 3.5 Asmodeus is stated in the Book of Vile Darkness on page 166. Read the part about him talking to PCs

[Gurgeh]

I may be mixing my editions but I am 99.99% sure that it is pre-4e.
Do you have a source for that? There's nothing in Fiendish Codex I or Fiendish Codex II that implies any connection at all between Asmodeus and Pazuzu (or any other demon prince, for that matter); the Ruby Rod is also not mentioned as being connected to any primordial forces.

I can't find anything in any of the other 3.0/3.5 sources I'd suspected might help
(Book of Vile Darkness, Manual of the Planes, Planar Handbook), so I suspect that this is all 4E cosmology.

[Jeraa]

Depending on how accurate you find Wikipedia to be, its an invention of 4e. In all previous editions, it was just a normal ruby (though one said to be as old as time itself.)


Asmodeus is never seen without his Ruby Rod (also referred to as The Rod of the Asmodeus in The Book of Vile Darkness and in Fiendish Codex II), a glowing rod of pure ruby that serves as a badge of office as well as having several powerful offensive and defensive powers. The Rod allows Asmodeus to attack with elemental forces, force his enemies to cower in fear, or cover himself with a field which heals and protects him. It is also a powerful melee weapon that causes great harm to those struck by it or who touch it against Asmodeus's will. In the default 4th edition setting, the Ruby Rod is a fragment of the shard of pure evil that created the Abyss, but this origin is not suggested in earlier editions.

[Morithias]

I'm recalling, with no sources, that in 4E Asmodeus was an ascended Archdevil. This may be setting specific Asmodeus, but he took some great power and shunted the Abyss spatially *Away* from everything, and brought the hells into the Astral plane or some such.

I haven't a clue what he is in PF.

Yeah this has been bugging me for a while, after my friend brought up a very VERY good point.

Lolth.

How the bloody hell did Asmodeus just "shunt" the Abyss away, when there's ANOTHER deity that is his equal or greater in power in the Abyss?

Hell she's not the only one if you reference some of the charts in the Fiendish Codex 1.