Wands as Guns....help me make this work.

[Maho-Tsukai]

As the title says. am creating a high magic, high technology setting and want there to be guns/weapons that can replicate spells present. Thus, I thought that refluffing wands as these weapons, increasing their weight accordingly and saying they are gun-shaped would do the trick for less work then homebrewing a bunch of new spell-guns. However, the issue for this becomes that I want mundanes, not spellcasters, to be able to use the spell guns. Thus, I am going to ask you all....how could this idea be made to work. Giving spell guns to mundanes is as easy as giving mundane classes a refluffed use magic device skill("Use Magi tech Weaponry" or something) ...but the worrisome part is taking away wands from casters....

So, my question is, how do I make this work? Should I keep wands and UMD as is and add the spellguns in as well? If I do that, how do I make the spellguns not inferior to wands? Would the best way to make them easier to re-charge then wands/make spellgun recharges easy to come by? Should I consider spellguns to be weapons or not?

If anybody can help me out with this please, tell me. Also, no...wand holsters won't work here because the flavor is just not in line, so don't even mention them, please.

[Prime32]

I was working on something related for PF recently. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11958.msg433417#msg433417)

Think of it this way: Any character can gain the ability to use all wizard and cleric wands/staffs by dipping cleric and choosing Magic as one of their domains. So just let all characters use spell trigger items, using their BAB in place of the item's caster level if higher.

[Grendus]

Well, we have a few options:

1. I've been playing Geneforge lately (great games, if you like indie RPG's, and there are fairly long demos of each game on the dev's website). One of the things the shaper faction likes to do is create living weapons that attack when squeezed. So the guns could easily be living creations or constructs with a high natural UMD score that, when stimulated, activate the wand. Higher quality guns have a higher UMD (or even feats that let them use metamagic by using multiple charges), and players with UMD could Aid Another to increase the odds of firing even more.

2. Treat guns as Masterwork UMD Tools for wands. Guards, then, would be third level experts with UMD as a chosen skill and Skill Focus (Use Magic Device). With six ranks, three from skill focus, and two from masterwork tool bonus they would be able to activate a gun roughly every other round. Higher level characters (say, the captain of the guard, a sixth level expert with 14 charisma) would have a better chance (with a +16 bonus, he could fire almost every round... give him a rifle loaded with Scorching Ray and watch him bring the pain). Better guns could be custom magic items that granted a circumstance bonus to UMD.

3. Simply treat the guns (especially revolvers, just treat each chamber as an individual weapon) as +1 spell storing weapons. Assuming the mages guild offers to reload them for a more reasonable cost (say 1-5gp for a first level spell, 20-25 for second level spells, etc), towns buying a few 'guns' to arm their guards wouldn't be out of the question, and easily within the purchasing cost of an adventurer.

[Zaq]

I don't see the problem with just saying that everyone can use wands in the same way that everyone can use potions. It's a power bump, sure, but it benefits muggles a lot more than casters, and that's who really needs it.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Yeah, but the issue is if casters get normal wands and mundanes get guns then mundanes guns will be inferior to wands because they will be heavier to carry.(Gun bigger then wand) Of course I could just replace all wands with guns, but I don't like casters being able to use a big heavy fireball bazooka...that seems more fitting for, say, fighter types....I suppose I could NOT increase the weight of the guns, but that would make little fluff sense unless they where all made of some kind of messed alloy, which again, makes little fluff sense as why the heck would EVERY gun in existence be made of some super-special feather weight alloy?

This is one of main issues that I'm trying to deal with...so yeah.

My only other sollution is to forget EVERY mundane class getting magical guns and using the iron kingdoms gunmage class, refluffing the magelock pistol as a more larger anime-esc high-(magi)tech gun(which is what I am going for) and refluffing the class as a magi-tech soldier of sorts(the spells would be refluffed as magi-tech items that replicate spell effects and the spells-per day would be fluffed as said items having recharge times...or something like that)... and have normal high-tech guns be ported over from D20 future.

[Randomguy]

I suggest you make guns and wands different via fluff, but identical in effect. A normal gun is normal weapon: you shoot it and it hurts people, no magic involved. A laser rifle is a high-tech weapon: it would have the same effect, when used, as a wand of scorching rays, but it would be useable by fighters and not wizards.

Make a list of gun/item types, pick which kind of spells you want them to be emulate, and give different classes proficiency with that item. This way a wizard or a commoner would be able to use a bazooka of fireball, but not nearly as well as a fighter. Or, if you prefer, make it so that only people that are proficient with modern/futuristic weapons can use them.

For example, pistols/rifles for spells that are either single target or have multiple rays that can target multiple people, like magic missiles or scorching rays.
Bazookas/grenade launchers/whatever can emulate area spells.
Tazers or some other thing could emulate touch spells.
Magic medipacks could emulate healing/buffing spells. (think a box full of 50 potions.) (or just make these potion only things, so they can't be put in wands.)

If you want to make weapons more unique than wands, then you could let people by batteries/ammunition for weapons, effectively recharging them, for less than the cost of the weapon. For example, the cost to recharge a full scorching ray battery would be half the cost to buy the rifle.

Spellcasters could still have normal wands, which WOULD be better because they're easier to carry, but it's always been harder for martial characters to use magic items: at least this way, there's a guaranteed success, instead of a skill check.

[Prime32]

Yeah, but the issue is if casters get normal wands and mundanes get guns then mundanes guns will be inferior to wands because they will be heavier to carry.(Gun bigger then wand) Of course I could just replace all wands with guns, but I don't like casters being able to use a big heavy fireball bazooka...that seems more fitting for, say, fighter types....I suppose I could NOT increase the weight of the guns, but that would make little fluff sense unless they where all made of some kind of messed alloy, which again, makes little fluff sense as why the heck would EVERY gun in existence be made of some super-special feather weight alloy?Because... they're magic? Heck, Iron Man's origin story had bazookas the size of pens because transistors.

And if you use the BAB=CL rule then casters won't be able to use them as well as fighters.

[sverigesson]

...guns will be inferior to wands because they will be heavier to carry.

Your problem is the weight? Let's take a look, shall we?

The DMG states that a wand weighs about 1 ounce. Let's assume this is right, and not some other estimates I've seen. Basically, you don't need to track it's weight. I assume you're thinking hand gun sized, so here's some weights.

Modern Handguns:
Smith and Wesson .500 Magnum - 3.5 lbs (heaviest model)
IMI Desert Eagle - 4.4 lbs (heaviest model)
Beretta 92 - 2.1 lbs (heaviest model)

Historical Handguns
Colt Peacemaker - 2.3 lbs
Browning Colt Model 1903/FN Model 1903 - 2.1 lbs
Smith & Wesson Model 1913 - 1.4 lbs

As you can see, even the most ridiculously overweight handguns (I'm looking at you, Desert Eagle) only weigh up to 5 lbs. Yes, that's heavy, but I doubt you want people slinging magical Desert Eagles either. A couple lbs plus ammo for a magically deadly weapon doesn't seem that bad.

Besides, you yourself said you worry about taking wands from casters. Well, here, the extra weight acts as a little bit of a balancing factor. I'd say, make them like very low capacity wands that weigh more and call it a day.

[Kobold-Bard]

How expensive would spell storing ammo be (increasing spell-storing's limit if it's lower than wands)? If it's acceptable make the guns refluffed hand-crossbows?

[TurtleKing]

Doesn't the Complete Mage have amagic item where you can load upto 3 wands and fire all of them but takes up more charges? If there is one just add a handle of a sort plus maybe a trigger and you have a revolver/pepper box right there.

[Yorrin]

I'd differentiate them using an ammo system for the guns. Each gun would have a clip of like... 10 uses of a spell, priced somewhat cheaper than a 10 charge wand (like... 60% cost or something). But I'd also greatly restrict the spells that could be used to stuff with ranged touch attacks and the like. This keeps the 'gun' feel while restricting the abusability of the system (and discounted magic therein).

[Kobold-Bard]

... But I'd also greatly restrict the spells that could be used to stuff with ranged touch attacks and the like. This keeps the 'gun' feel while restricting the abusability of the system (and discounted magic therein).

Aww, I wanted a gun that fired CLW bullets.

[Coidzor]

Murlynd (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Murlynd), eh?

Good luck.

[Sactheminions]

Make them uses-per-day command activated wondrous items? If you can make an item activate when you say "Open Sesame," making it activate when you pull a lever isn't a stretch.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Actually, more like Shinra meets high magic. The magical guns would fairly common in this setting. It's basically a high magic world that also has extremely high technology and is ruled by an evil megacorp. The society runs mostly on an "interesting" energy source, though. Basically, to power the world aforementioned megacorp uses negative energy to draw life force from living things(trees, plants, people, whatever the hell they want) and then extract said force from the negative energy and turn it into a very powerful, very efficient magical energy source. The issue? Their spreading negative energy all around and pretty much most of the world is so saturated with negative energy that people who die tend to res as undead and some areas are treated as if they had desecrate cast on them at all times...so wandering undead are a normal part of life..., though most corpses are burned/destroyed to prevent them from rising as undead.

The negative energy has also mutated some of the little surviving plant life to create a whole new breed of plant monsters that are actually all free-roaming agents of one monstrous plant colony controlled by a giant, central, sentient taproot. This monstrous plant colony has actually overtaken whole sectors of the world-city and even is strong enough to grant evil druids their divine magic/have it's own druids.(and I am actually homebrewing a kind of "Necro & Plant based Druid" ACF for Morkazuba(the plant) druids.)...

Oh, and the Morkazuba and the Megacorp are not the only villains..but this thread is not the place to ramble on about this setting...so I'll be quiet now.

[Madeiner]

Actually, more like Shinra meets high magic. The magical guns would fairly common in this setting. It's basically a high magic world that also has extremely high technology and is ruled by an evil megacorp. The society runs mostly on an "interesting" energy source, though. Basically, to power the world aforementioned megacorp uses negative energy to draw life force from living things(trees, plants, people, whatever the hell they want) and then extract said force from the negative energy and turn it into a very powerful, very efficient magical energy source. The issue? Their spreading negative energy all around and pretty much most of the world is so saturated with negative energy that people who die tend to res as undead and some areas are treated as if they had desecrate cast on them at all times...so wandering undead are a normal part of life..., though most corpses are burned/destroyed to prevent them from rising as undead.

The negative energy has also mutated some of the little surviving plant life to create a whole new breed of plant monsters that are actually all free-roaming agents of one monstrous plant colony controlled by a giant, central, sentient taproot. This monstrous plant colony has actually overtaken whole sectors of the world-city and even is strong enough to grant evil druids their divine magic/have it's own druids.(and I am actually homebrewing a kind of "Necro & Plant based Druid" ACF for Morkazuba(the plant) druids.)...

Oh, and the Morkazuba and the Megacorp are not the only villains..but this thread is not the place to ramble on about this setting...so I'll be quiet now.


I like your setting!
In fact, it is very much similar to mine! I suggest you have a look at a translated version of dnd.grieco.org, especially Technology section.
Anyway, my campaign is also based around Midgar and takes a lot from FF7.

How i handle magical guns:
- Use tech device skill is a class skill for everyone. It allows using tech weapons and machinery (like cars, for example). DC's are lower than UMD, as tech weapons are usually a lot simpler to use than magic things.
You need to be third level to use a magic wand, but using a tech gun requires at best level 2 or 3 to be proficient. Downside is weight, less ammunition and wathever else you desire.

- I also have specific tech weapons that require proficiency. For example, i have the "force crossbow", costing 3k gp. It is an exotic proficiency, but free if you stay for a few years in the Midgar guard or army.
It is very much like this:
http://www.instructables.com/files/deriv/FET/2PYJ/G1QWB4FL/FET2PYJG1QWB4FL.MEDIUM.jpg

It fires machine-gun like projectiles propelled by a Force Materia mounted inside the crossbow. It is able to do 10 attacks before needing to reload another magazine. Also, if you have less than +5 BAB, then you are counted as if having +5. And finally, if you ready an action to shoot at a creature being hit by another crossbow user, the attack is counted only once in respect to DR.

That is just an example. IMC, these weapons are much useful because there is no possibility of enchanting weapons, due to unknown (to the players) reasons, and many enemies have DR.
I also had chain grenades from Gears of Wars and some other weapons.

PS: I'd like to exchange setting informations with you!

[Strormer]

I would suggest, for fluff purposes and maybe a few ideas, look at the anime Outlaw Star. They have special guns called "caster pistols" which are just like normal guns, but they have unique ammunition that is hard to come by and creates spell-like effects. Normal guns and magic are present, but the rare "caster user" has power similar to both. It is worth noting, however, that the setting has no wands or similar and that some of the "caster rounds" affect the user negatively. (In the end of the series they show three shells which, when fired consecutively, are the most powerful in the world, but also kills the user.)

[DiBastet]

Please allow me my opinion. Don't make guns like wands.

Make bullets like wand charges.

You could have the normal bullets, and the animesque Magictech bullets, that replicate a certain spell. The price is the same as for the charge of a wand (minimum CL x Spell level x 15), however when using in a animesque magitech gun, the caster level becomes the character BAB.

In this case, we come to this point:
-Wands require spell ability or UMD, but have a set caster level.
-Bullets require ability in the animesque magitech weapon, but they can have a better caster level.

So, bullets are good for those with high bab and fighter types who use guns.
Wands are better for spellcasters. However, each charge cost the same, be it bullet or wand.


You could even make different weapons shot different bullets: Like Handguns can only shot bullets of ray spells; rifles can shot rays and lines, but require two hands; shoguns can shot rays or cones; bazookas can shot rays, spreads and lines; etc etc.

I works similarly for me.

[Maho-Tsukai]

That system is a lot more elegant, I must say, though it means clerics still may gun it up instead of using wands....however, luckily the cleric class is not something the PCs can start off with due to the fluff of the campaign(initially the art of the cleric is one that's been lost to time and archivists fill the void left by the lack of clerics.....however, clerics will make a return via one of the BBEGs....)...It also means rogues, who I would see using guns are less apt to use them and just use wands instead...and I kinds see rogues using pistols and such over wands...the fluff just fits better....perhaps give them a "finess" type feat for magi-tech weapons that lets them add their dex bonus to their BAB but only for specific magi-tech weapon groups?(I don't see a rogue lugging around a bazooka, for example.)

[Zonugal]

Make them uses-per-day command activated wondrous items? If you can make an item activate when you say "Open Sesame," making it activate when you pull a lever isn't a stretch.

What about something like this? For my campaign I developed "caster-guns' which are completely RAW and should function to a degree how you want.


Here is what I have lately cooked up. Hopefully it serves as a better 'standard' pistol, so give it a look if your interested & if you have any thoughts I'd love to hear them.

The Caster Gun & Accessories
http://rpggamer.org/uploaded_images/CasterAndShells.jpg

Caster Gun ($220)
A pistol-like object wrapped in a protective iron casing. Upon being activated through the safety switch (requiring at least one rank in Knowledge: Architecture & Engineering to correctly perform) the pistol’s side section opens up awaiting ammunition placement (do so takes a full-round action). When the trigger is pressed the pistol releases its ammunition bolt screaming towards its newest victim.
Caster Gun: (-- dependent on ammunition; 110 ft.; caster gun: saving throw non- spell resistance none)

Caster Gun Ammo Pouches
Stone Pouch ($440): Any stones, which can be no larger than sling bullets, placed into this small belt pouch are immediately transmuted (through a variety of levels & switches, requiring at least one rank in Knowledge: Architecture & Engineering to correctly perform) so that they strike with great force when thrown or slung. If hurled, they have a range increment of 20 feet. If slung, treat them as sling bullets (range increment 50 feet). The spell gives them a +1 enhancement bonus on attack and damage rolls. The user of the stones makes a normal ranged attack. Each stone that hits deals 1d6+1 points of damage (including the spell’s enhancement bonus), or 2d6+2 points against undead. Will-based saving throw (harmless, objects), spell resistance applies (harmless, objects)
Gems Pouch ($3,500): Any gems (at least costing $1 gp), which can be no larger than sling bullets, placed into this small belt pouch are immediately transmuted (through a variety of levels & switches, requiring at least one rank in Knowledge: Architecture & Engineering to correctly perform) so that they strike with great force when thrown. If hurled, they have a range increment of 60 feet. Each gem explodes in a five-foot radius dealing 2d8 points of force damage. Reflex-based saving throw (save for half), spell resistance applies.

Caster Gun Ammunition
Stone: 1d6+1 (or 2d6+2 against undead); x2; 110ft.; stone)
Gem (1 gp): 2d8 force; x2; 110ft.; 5-foot radius; gem)

Specialized Ammunition
Grease Shell ($20 gp): Upon hitting a ten foot squared-area magical slime immediately covers the floor for one round. Any creature in the area must make a successful Reflex save or fall. A creature can walk within or through the area of grease at half normal speed with a DC 10 Balance check. Failure means it can’t move that round (and must then make a Reflex save or fall), while failure by 5 or more means it falls (see the Balance skill for details). A Grease Shell may also be targeted towards a specific individual or object. Material objects not in use are always affected by this ammunition, while an object wielded or employed by a creature receives a Reflex saving throw to avoid the effect. If the initial saving throw fails, the creature immediately drops the item. A creature wearing greased armor or clothing gains a +10 circumstance bonus on Escape Artist checks and on grapple checks made to resist or escape a grapple or to escape a pin. Reflex-based saving throw, no spell resistance.
Spark Shell ($20 gp): Upon hitting a creature or object a surge of electricity explodes dealing 1d8 points of electrical damage. No saving throw, no spell resistance.
Slumber Shell ($20 gp): Upon hitting a ten foot squared-area magical dust immediately explodes into the air causing a magical slumber to come upon any creature with four or less hit die for one minute. Sleeping creatures are considered helpless. Slapping or wounding awakens an affected creature, but normal noise does not. Awakening a creature is a standard action (an application of the aid another action). Saving throw will negates, spell resistance applies.
Scatter Shell ($20 gp): Upon hitting a collection of little, unsecured items they fly away in all directions simultaneously hitting everything within a ten foot radius. Such a spray causes damage dependent on the material. For fairly hard or sharp (such as stones, sling bullets, coins, glass, ect.) creatures in the burst take 1d8 damage (a successful reflex save negates this damage). Eggs, fruit, and other soft objects can be used, but the damage then dealt is nonlethal damage. Reflex-based saving throw, no spell resistance.
Vapor Shell ($20 gp): Upon hitting any object or creature the surround radius around them, up to 20ft., immedaitly fills up with a misty vapor for one minute. It is stationary once created. The vapor obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature 5 feet away has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker cannot use sight to locate the target). No saving throw, no spell resistance.
Entangle Shell ($20 gp): Upon hitting any object or creature the surrounding plant life in an area, up to a 40ft. radius spread, comes alive for one minute. Grasses, weeds, bushes, and even trees wrap, twist, and entwine about creatures in the area or those that enter the area, holding them fast and causing them to become entangled. The creature can break free and move half its normal speed by using a full-round action to make a DC 20 Strength check or a DC 20 Escape Artist check. A creature that succeeds on a Reflex save is not entangled but can still move at only half speed through the area. Each round on your turn, the plants once again attempt to entangle all creatures that have avoided or escaped entanglement. Partial reflex saving throw, no spell resistance.
Fog Shell ($80 gp): Upon hitting any object or creature the surrounding radius around them, up to 20ft., immediately fills up with a bank of fog for up to 30 minutes. The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker can’t use sight to locate the target). No saving throw, no spell resistance.
Glitter Shell ($80 gp): Upon hitting a ten foot squared-area a cloud of golden particles covers everyone and everything in the area, causing creatures to become blinded and visibly outlining invisible things for 3 rounds. All within the area are covered by the dust, which cannot be removed and continues to sparkle until it fades. Any creature covered by the dust takes a -40 penalty on Hide checks. Will-based saving throw (for the blinding), no spell resistance.
Swarm Shell ($80 gp): Upon hitting any objet or creature a swarm of bats, rats, or spiders (your choice) are immediately summoned for two rounds, which attacks all other creatures within its area. (You may summon the swarm so that it shares the area of other creatures.) If no living creatures are within its area, the swarm attacks or pursues the nearest creature as best it can. The shooter has no control over its target or direction of travel. No saving throw, no spell resistance.
Monster Aid I Shell ($80 gp): Upon hitting any five foot square a creature is immediately summoned to its place for three rounds. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. If summoning more than one creature, they can not be more than 30ft apart. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. A summoned creature cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Creatures cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. The creatures available are: Celestial Giant Bombardier Beetle, Celestial Eagle, Lemure (devil), Fiendish wolf, Large Fiendish Monstrous Centipede, Medium Fiendish Monstrous Scorpion, 1d3 Celestial Dogs, 1d3 Celestial Giant Fire Beetles, 1d3 Celestial Badgers, 1d3 Fiendish Dire Rats or 1d3 Medium Fiendish Monstrous Centipedes.
Nature’s Aid I Shell ($80 gp): Upon hitting any five foot square an animal is immediately summoned to its place for three rounds. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. If summoning more than one animal, they can not be more than 30ft apart. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the animal, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. An animal cannot summon or otherwise conjure another creature, nor can it use any teleportation or planar travel abilities. Animals cannot be summoned into an environment that cannot support them. The animals available are: Black Bear, Crocodile, Dire Badger, Small Elemental (Any), Hippogriff, 1d3 Eagles, 1d3 Monkeys or 1d3 Wolves.

[DiBastet]

That system is a lot more elegant, I must say, though it means clerics still may gun it up instead of using wands....however, luckily the cleric class is not something the PCs can start off with due to the fluff of the campaign(initially the art of the cleric is one that's been lost to time and archivists fill the void left by the lack of clerics.....however, clerics will make a return via one of the BBEGs....)...It also means rogues, who I would see using guns are less apt to use them and just use wands instead...and I kinds see rogues using pistols and such over wands...the fluff just fits better....perhaps give them a "finess" type feat for magi-tech weapons that lets them add their dex bonus to their BAB but only for specific magi-tech weapon groups?(I don't see a rogue lugging around a bazooka, for example.)

I don't see the problem with the rogues, because they have their middle base attack bonus. You see, a rogue would use pistols to snipe people, right? He still can do it, and even if he doesn't cause as much damage as a , let's say, fighter or holy paladin can cause with animesque magitech ammo, he is going to add sneak attack damage. In most cases, it is going to make up for that.

Now, about the weapons: The +x upgrades should add to attack and damage for the rays. For the Reflex saves, the DC should be based on 10 + level of the ammo + DEX + weapon's enhancement bonus. So a rifle (lines and rays) stays useful for both, be it +atk or +DC.

As for the rogue-like guys, you can make this feat, or something like that.

Agile Gunslinger
Pre-Req: Dex 15, Sleight of Hand 4
Effect: When using Animesque Magitech Ammo on light firearms for your size (like most pistols and revolvers) that you're proeficient with, you can substitute your character level for your BAB when determining the CL of the Animesque Magitech Ammo.