Wizard Optimization

[Jayh]

So, I would like to build a wizard killer. All books open.

My initial sketch is an abjurer 3/master specialist 2/warweaver 5/
primal scholar 2/recaster 5/archmage 3/epic wizard 3/7fold7, for a total of 30 levels.

my guide for getting this far was

optimizing the action economy
warweaver blacktactica right action
at will counterspelling, uncapped
uncapped spell slots (unfettered heroism, secret of power)
uncanny forethought + spell mastery + eidetic spellcaster

any suggestions for furthering the build?

[Jayh]

I used pathfinder feat progression as a thought excercise - it can be done standard, but I liked seeing what a counterspelling build would look like


ACF - eidetic spellcaster (dragon 357)

1 reserve feat fiery blast (lose at 12)
1 (precocious, retrain) spellfocus abjuration
1 spell mastery (players handbook)
1 uncanny forethought (exemplars of evil)
eschew materials (house rule)
ignore components (house rule)
flaw- noncombatant
flaw- vulnerable
silvermarshes membership
3 practiced spellcaster
3 skillfocus spellcraft (class feature)
(4 companion spirit communication, lens)
5 enlarge spell
7 quicken spell
9 mysterious magic
9 (use planar binding +5 int, kaorti palms)
11 planar touchstone (planer handbook)
Catalogues of Enlightenment - Inquisition Domain
(become changling, lose human feat)
13 improved init
15 combat reflexes
17 spell focus (??)
18 arcana shapes
19 arcana types
19 planar touchstone - breaching obelisk
20 arcana counterspell
21 improved counterspell
23 greater spellfocus abjuration
23 multispell
25 multispell
27 reactive counterspell
29 epic counterspell pgtf
30 autoquicken

[BillyBobJoe]

You're missing epic spellcasting as one of your epic feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

How do you plan on finding a Wizard who's using Mind Blank + Private Sanctum (+ Rope Trick) + Astral Projection + Plane Shift his projected copy to whatever plane he wishes to adventure on?

[sreservoir]

you have to take the other 17 levels of wizard before you can take epic wizard.

[Infernalbargain]

you have to take the other 17 levels of wizard before you can take epic wizard.

At which point you're better off going for epic hathran to get bonus feat every other level and spontaneously casting your entire list.

[candycorn]

Let me do it in 20.

Wizard 1 / Ardent 2 / Psychic Theurge 10 / Tainted Scholar 1 / Subverted Psion 1 / Wizard +5

Casts spells as a Wizard 17 (CL 20).
Power Selection as a Ardent 16 (up to 9th powers, ML 20)

Action abuse out the wazoo, metafaculty to pierce Mind Blank.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

you have to take the other 17 levels of wizard before you can take epic wizard.

I'm confused as to what this is in response to. Why would anyone want to take Epic Wizard when there are so many great PrCs to take?

[Jayh]

Billybob - Do you find ESC worth it? it seems like spending millions of gold and xp for mediocre gains

Sreservoir - Really? (Im curious, I dont know). Would it have the same problem with a wizard/loremaster/archmage? Going straight wizard seems counterintuitive when they offer prestige classes.

Candycron - That is really elegant.

Kalaska - I tossed in 3 levels of epic wizard near the end. I tend to value epic feats like multispell or autoquicken more then some of the prestige class abilities.

[Jayh]

Further questions:

In the warweaver guide, it mentions that the spell unfettered heroism and the class primal scholar gets you infinite slots. Im having trouble making it work, any ideas?

When you combine uncanny forethought and eidetic spellcaster (dragon magazine), can you cast your entire spellist spontaneously? Thats the impression Im getting.

[Kenneth]

how are you getting the fiery burst reserve feat at 1st level?

Fiery Burst[Reserve]

You channel your magical talent into a blast of fire.

Prerequisite: Ability to cast 2nd-level spells

Benefit: As long as you have a fire spell of 2nd level or higher available to cast, you can spend a standard action to create a 5-foot-radius burst of fire at a range of 30 feet. This burst deals ld6 points of fire damage per level of the highest level fire spell you have available to cast. A successful Reflex save halves the damage. As a secondary benefit, you gain a +1 competence bonus to your caster level when casting fire spells.


You somehow have the ability to cast 2nd level spell at 1st level? and what is teh differnce between eschew materials and ignore components, becuase as far as I know you just wrote down synonyms of the actual 3.5 feat's name.

[Jayh]

Precocious apprentice allows fiery burst.

And yeah, house rule in my group tends towards no material components and eschew materials (feat and epic feat, respectively).

[BillyBobJoe]

Billybob - Do you find ESC worth it? it seems like spending millions of gold and xp for mediocre gains.

Have you looked at epic spells recently? Epic Spellcasting is obscenely broken, and makes epic levels a cakewalk. If you know how to make your own epic spells well, you can snap the game in half, on top of being, you know, a spellcaster. I don't have much experience with epic levels, but seriously, look in to it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Epic spells can have mitigating factors to get the DC down to 0. Since the time, XP, and gold costs of developing an epic spell are multiplied by the DC, all of that is zero. You instantly gain knowledge of the spell for zero cost. Google can find you some links to example spells.

As just one example, you can use the Reflect seed for slashing damage, and give the spell an instantaneous duration so its effect becomes a permanent nonmagical trait, similar to how Wish increases an ability score. From then on, any time you would be dealt slashing damage it gets automatically reflected back at the attacker. Since the DC is 0 for that spell, you can make a different version for every damage type in existence, and always reflect any HP damage you would be dealt back to the attacker as a nonmagical effect. Epic spells are completely unfair and game breaking.

[Jayh]

>> isnt that an indicator *against* using epic spells? I mean, sure, I can use punpun or a betrayer of shar, but Id like the class to be at least a bit playable.

[dextercorvia]

Sreservoir - Really? (Im curious, I dont know). Would it have the same problem with a wizard/loremaster/archmage? Going straight wizard seems counterintuitive when they offer prestige classes..

He's right. You can't take epic levels in a class until you have completed the standard progression. That is why builds with a completed 10 level PrC are called Epic Ready.

[sreservoir]

I'm confused as to what this is in response to. Why would anyone want to take Epic Wizard when there are so many great PrCs to take?

see OP.


At which point you're better off going for epic hathran to get bonus feat every other level and spontaneously casting your entire list.

you'll probably need an acorn for that.

[Jayh]

Dexter - Ty, Ive often wondered about that.

Sreservoir - heh, another class for my list. War weaver, recaster, intitate, archmage, primal scholar, tainted scholar, and hathran. I have no idea how to do them best xD

Im still quietly boggling at Candycorn's build. There is tainted spellcasting for psionics?? =-0

edit: although hathran requires divine. hmmm...

edit2: means I could get rid of primal scholar, spell mastery, and uncanny forethought though

[Jayh]

My line of thinking so far:

Ive heard IotSV are wizard killers. So the abjurer/master specialist/iotsv/archmage flows pretty well

Being that wizards are tier 1, I like helping the party get their scene as well So thats warweaver/recaster

Primal scholar is for uncapped spellslots, but that can be done with tainted scholar as well.

I wanted spontaneity, so grabbed uncanny forethought, but the hathran fulfills that need as well.

Summing it up, I'm trying to optimize action economy/spontaneous wizard/uncapped spellslots, right at the edge of playability

[Diarmuid]

Optimize Action Economoy |= Playability

[Infernalbargain]

see OP.



you'll probably need an acorn for that.

Well the class progresses how often you can do it without an acorn, it's like 1/day/3levels.

[sreservoir]

My line of thinking so far:

Ive heard IotSV are wizard killers. So the abjurer/master specialist/iotsv/archmage flows pretty well

it's not. a wizard killer needs three things: a) I go first; b) I go first before you go first; c) I win.

best way I know of to do that is shapeshift to dire tortoise form, keep foresight up, and an no-save, no-SR, undeniable win button.


Being that wizards are tier 1, I like helping the party get their scene as well So thats warweaver/recaster

recaster is the changeling pseudo-metamagic prc, no?


Primal scholar is for uncapped spellslots, but that can be done with tainted scholar as well.

primal scholar can only do that for a low-level spell, and only if you have some way of generating lots of action points, no? the one in secrets of xen'drik, anyway, and I know of no other.


I wanted spontaneity, so grabbed uncanny forethought, but the hathran fulfills that need as well.

Summing it up, I'm trying to optimize action economy/spontaneous wizard/uncapped spellslots, right at the edge of playability

spontaneity is probably better done by spontaneous divination acf + versatile spellcaster, which is probably less of an investment than hathran.

from your "hathran requires divine," I assume you're looking at the magic of faerûn version. the pgtf one is decidedly more usable.

but really, action economy/spontaneity/uncapped slots? sounds to me more like a spell-to-power erudite with a recharge trick.

(psionics <3 -- but seriously, psionics does your thing better.)

[Jayh]

Yes, thats recaster. It can be used to get heal from the adept spell list, for example, and then put in the warweaver weave.

Primal scholar syncs up with unfettered heroism, which completes the loop. My initial reading is that would only do low level spells, but some of the guides Ive been looking at suggest it can do all spells, which Im curious about.

Hm, Ill look at the pgtf hathran, that sounds interesting.

How does the erudite work? I know its tier 1, but dont usually see much psionics in my game.

[Jayh]

As an aside - I really liked the style of the wizard in this guide - http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870806/War_Weavers_Handbook,_Black_Tactica_Edition

Countercasting and counterspelling. It was the first time I encountered the idea of action economy.

[Jayh]

1 abjurer
2 abjurer
3 abjurer
4 master specialist
5 master specialist
6 warweaver
7 warweaver
8 warweaver
9 hathran
10 warweaver
11 warweaver
12 recaster
13 recaster
14
15
16 archmage
17 archmage
18 archmage
19
20

hathran, acorn for spell spontaneity
eidetic spellcaster for spellbook

pondering uncapped spells
also pondering if I should take IotsV, recaster, or something else in the empty slots

[dextercorvia]

Dropping two casting levels doesn't seem like it would make for the best anti-caster build. What are you getting out of recaster to make it worth it? I don't know if I would bother with it just for Heal. Don't you have somebody else that can do that?

[Jayh]

Thats... thats a good point actually.

I do like the idea of mass healing the party, (and if primal scholar loops, doing it at will), but yeah, a dedicated healer could (and should) do it better...

edit: I guess that means the question is, whats good for the last 6 levels? iotsfv, or something else?

[dextercorvia]

Thats... thats a good point actually.

I do like the idea of mass healing the party, (and if primal scholar loops, doing it at will), but yeah, a dedicated healer could (and should) do it better...

edit: I guess that means the question is, whats good for the last 6 levels? iotsfv, or something else?

Divine Oracle 10 means never being surprised. Because sometimes, even wizards want to look better than a dire tortoise. You get a couple of other good abilities, and some meh ones. It also leaves you Epic Ready.

[mepstein]

What are you using Archmage for? Like, which High Arcanas? Also, would Incantatrix be an interesting option for this build? Seizing control of existing spells is something that could come in handy for a wizard killer.

Also, I know I'll probably get some (or a lot of) grief for this (suggesting losing caster levels? oh no! it's madness!), but what about something along the lines of Spymaster? Having a hidden identity vs divinations could prove very, VERY useful (possibly moreso than a simple Mind Blank, since then the opponent will know you have the ability to hide your thoughts with a spell such as Mind Blank, and they'll be on guard for that), and would allow you to catch the target unaware by having them not even realize you're a spellcaster (and with the Magic Aura ability, you could even have them think you're just a normal, mundane adventurer). Besides, it's protection in the long run; if people know you're a wizard-killer, all the wizards will be gunning for you and you'll never have a moment's peace.

Just some thoughts.

[Jayh]

I was thinking these:

Mastery of Counterspelling
When the archmage counterspells a spell, it is turned back upon the caster as if it were fully affected by a spell turning spell. If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning, then it is merely counterspelled. This ability costs one 7th-level spell slot.

Mastery of Elements
The archmage can alter an arcane spell when cast so that it utilizes a different element from the one it normally uses. This ability can only alter a spell with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic descriptor. The spell’s casting time is unaffected. The caster decides whether to alter the spell’s energy type and chooses the new energy type when he begins casting. This ability costs one 8th-level spell slot.

Mastery of Shaping
The archmage can alter area and effect spells that use one of the following shapes: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. Furthermore, any shapeable spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feet instead of 10 feet. This ability costs one 6th-level spell slot.

[Jayh]

Why dire tortoise, and what book is it in?

[dextercorvia]

Why dire tortoise, and what book is it in?

Sandstorm. They always act during the Surprise round.

[Jayh]

Thats pretty awesome. So the idea is polymorph/shapechange into it while in a dangerous area, and waiting? Can you cast while transformed? How do you deal with the low duration?

[dextercorvia]

Thats pretty awesome. So the idea is polymorph/shapechange into it while in a dangerous area, and waiting? Can you cast while transformed? How do you deal with the low duration?

Greater Rod of Extend. It is 10min/level already, that isn't a short duration. But, if you can swing it, the Divine Oracle ability is always on.

[Jayh]

Other classes that have been put forward are incantrix, metaphysical spellshaper, or rainbow servant -ponders-

[dextercorvia]

Other classes that have been put forward are incantrix, metaphysical spellshaper, or rainbow servant -ponders-

Incantatrix is the the most powerful that I know of. Metaphysical Spellshaper is 3rd party. Rainbow Servant is kind of meh, unless you want to build for it.

[fryplink]

Do you want something to fight wizards? or a wizard that fights wizards? If you just want a wizard that kills batman, or just a build that kills batman?

Because (depending on the level of cheese and the willingness to use a partially formed varient) an arcane swordsage (I've always wanted to play one low-op) meets a lot of the criteria you are looking at, tack on a runestaff, and a variety of magic items and you suddenly are able to use as many disjunctions as you need (assuming I'm reading them right, I know Arc Swordsage comes up a bit on these boards, but I've only seen one thread and it was mentioned in passing, inspiring me to look them up)

If its a wizards, my prescription for any wizard build is always a level or two in Mage of the arcane order, seeing as being able to pull that one spell I didn't plan on is always nice, and "whoops I didn't have enough dispels" or "dang, I was just dispelled" is liable to come up and perhaps that silent image was kind of important or maybe you didn't plan on alter self but your enemy wizard is into the ladies (or lads. :smalltongue:) and wouldn't expect his "lover"to stab him in his sleep. Even just a one level dip leave great freedom to just leave one or two slot of level 1, 2 and 3 open (since at level 30 you have plenty of low level slots). that way, if for some reason you need a hold portal spell, you aren't up the proverbial creek.

This isn't probably what you were looking for, but I always feel adding some subterfuge options never hurt anyone [except the dagger repository]. That and I almost never play above level 10 (only one game ever went above level 17), so my experience with epic is limited.

[Jayh]

Yeah, the highest toon Ive run was in the 12-15 range, but the DM is really good at handling huge numbers as a player, so Im hopeful.

My current sketch is abjurer 3/master specialist 2/metaphysical shapter 3/
warweaver 5/7 fold/archmage 3/incantrix (pgtf) 10+

although I am opening up MotAO to look at right now.

[fryplink]

Yeah, the highest toon Ive run was in the 12-15 range, but the DM is really good at handling huge numbers as a player, so Im hopeful.

My current sketch is abjurer 3/master specialist 2/metaphysical shapter 3/
warweaver 5/7 fold/archmage 3/incantrix (pgtf) 10+

although I am opening up MotAO to look at right now.

Its by no means a TO PrC, but I find its good to sprinkle into any wizard build that has a little room for it, it'll make most wizard builds stronger (I don't remember entry reqs, but I remember that they aren't hard to hit if you are using other common wizard prestige classes as well)

[sreservoir]

Its by no means a TO PrC, but I find its good to sprinkle into any wizard build that has a little room for it, it'll make most wizard builds stronger (I don't remember entry reqs, but I remember that they aren't hard to hit if you are using other common wizard prestige classes as well)

coop spell is kind of a trash feat unless you're using it more arcane thesis abuse or something, though. you get another metamagic feat at 2, but.