Dragonlance?

[Lastgrasp]

Picked up the Dragonlance Campaign Setting book. Looks pretty good. Reading mainly the fluff aspects. How does the mechanics stack up with rest of 3.5? Mainly the Mystic and Noble classes. Anyone try them out?

Also, what book are worth grabbing? Fluff wise and crunch wise?

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

The Bestiary of Kyrnn contains two of the most broken templates in history. One being the Dragonspawn and the other being the Dragonspawn Abomination. (convenient that they are right next to each other huh?)

[Ravens_cry]

I've heard, heard mind, its biggest failing is a lot of high level NPC who basically act like Dues ex machina whenever the plot requires it rather then allowing the PC any actual freedom, and it had a metaplot so that if these NPC got killed, it would all simply fall apart, further restricting player freedom.
Oh and Kender, you can thank Dragonlance for them.
Except for the Kender-bit, its mostly hearsay mind.

[Fenryr]

If I remember correctly, the Noble is better for NPCs or a heavy roleplay campaign with nobility and urban stuff. I may be wrong but that's my point of view.

Now, what kind of book do you like? It's around the Dragonlance campaign or books in general? Tome of Battle, Spell Compendium may be my suggestion. If it is around Dragonlance, the Key of Destiny (that's the name?) is a nice campaign.

[sreservoir]

legend of the twins has academic and dynamic priest, which are somewhat nice for archivists and spirit shamans, respectively, though not really enough to be worth spending a feat on.

page 209 of age of mortals has undead battery, which is an incredible metamagic reducer, but kind of a pain to qualify for. really really breaks with persistent spell, 22 charisma, and a cheap source of undead. summon undead should work fine, even.

[Coidzor]

The Bestiary of Kyrnn contains two of the most broken templates in history. One being the Dragonspawn and the other being the Dragonspawn Abomination. (convenient that they are right next to each other huh?)

And I believe there's a nifty one in there for people who want to have construct/golem minions as well.

[Lastgrasp]

If I remember correctly, the Noble is better for NPCs or a heavy roleplay campaign with nobility and urban stuff. I may be wrong but that's my point of view.

Now, what kind of book do you like? It's around the Dragonlance campaign or books in general? Tome of Battle, Spell Compendium may be my suggestion. If it is around Dragonlance, the Key of Destiny (that's the name?) is a nice campaign.

Just opinion on the Dragonlance books. Key of Destiny is based off the novels? I'm looking at War of the Lance since they are the only novels of the series I actually read.

Was all the DL stuff 3.5?

Bestiary of Krynn? Anyone own it? Good Monster Manual compared to others? I love MM style books.

[Psyren]

Mystic is extremely powerful - very high T2 and almost strictly better than the Favored Soul. It is spontaneous, has access to the entire cleric list, Wis-SAD, and even gets a domain. It also gets Know (nature) for some reason despite not having the Druid list to choose from.

The Noble is either extremely weak or very strong depending on what your DM lets you do with the "call in a favor" ability. But personally, I tend to sharply downrate classes whose power depends on the DM to that degree. They do get a free class skill though, so you can probably try to pull something off with Iaijutsu Focus, UMD or Truespeak. that last one's a joke

[Nachtritter]

I've heard, heard mind, its biggest failing is a lot of high level NPC who basically act like Dues ex machina whenever the plot requires it rather then allowing the PC any actual freedom, and it had a metaplot so that if these NPC got killed, it would all simply fall apart, further restricting player freedom.
Oh and Kender, you can thank Dragonlance for them.
Except for the Kender-bit, its mostly hearsay mind.

Kenderrrrrrrrrr. By the severed hand of Vecna, I hate kender with a passion. They're one of the main reasons I can't stand Dragonlance (the other being exactly what Raven's Cry said about NPCs). Whomever came up with Kender should be thrown into a pit of rabid monkeys toting prison shivs and forced to fight for their freedom, because Kender are the most annoying character race to hit DnD since... since... crap, I can't think of anything that beats them. They're THAT annoying.

[Hazzardevil]

Kenderrrrrrrrrr. By the severed hand of Vecna, I hate kender with a passion. They're one of the main reasons I can't stand Dragonlance (the other being exactly what Raven's Cry said about NPCs). Whomever came up with Kender should be thrown into a pit of rabid monkeys toting prison shivs and forced to fight for their freedom, because Kender are the most annoying character race to hit DnD since... since... crap, I can't think of anything that beats them. They're THAT annoying.

Oh poor Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman! And they've written other nice books too!

[Drachasor]

Kenderrrrrrrrrr. By the severed hand of Vecna, I hate kender with a passion. They're one of the main reasons I can't stand Dragonlance (the other being exactly what Raven's Cry said about NPCs). Whomever came up with Kender should be thrown into a pit of rabid monkeys toting prison shivs and forced to fight for their freedom, because Kender are the most annoying character race to hit DnD since... since... crap, I can't think of anything that beats them. They're THAT annoying.

Kender are great. A lot of people just play them poorly. I think 1st Edition handled them the best (in principle), IIRC. There was a random table for grabbing something out of your pocket, so you didn't have to go around outright stating everything you borrow (which leads to problems). Really, I think that's the only thing significantly problematic about them in a group. Hmm, unless you hate anything childish, I suppose, but that's kind of silly, imho.

Anyhow, I have some of the 3rd Edition Dragonlance books. I wasn't very impressed with them overall. The mechanics in them aren't very good, and if you just want setting, that's easy to get elsewhere.

[darksolitaire]

You can have kender in your group and still play normally. The kender should be a spellcaster, and take a still spell and eschew materials. After those are taken, rest of the party proceeds and chops his hands off, and then makes sure that the kender cannot cast mage hand. Problem solved.

[JadedDM]

Just opinion on the Dragonlance books. Key of Destiny is based off the novels? I'm looking at War of the Lance since they are the only novels of the series I actually read.

War of the Lance has novels based on it, but Key of Destiny does not, as far as I know. (Key of Destiny is Fifth Age, so it takes place long after War of the Lance.)

[Wagadodo]

They put out a War of the Lance for 3.5 which I own. But the Key of Destiny adventure set is defiantly an adventure I would highly recomend. You could run it twice and except for a couple major plot points you could get to to the points in the game different ways. Worth the Read at least, if not worth the play.

[Ravens_cry]

Kender are great. A lot of people just play them poorly. I think 1st Edition handled them the best (in principle), IIRC. There was a random table for grabbing something out of your pocket, so you didn't have to go around outright stating everything you borrow (which leads to problems). Really, I think that's the only thing significantly problematic about them in a group. Hmm, unless you hate anything childish, I suppose, but that's kind of silly, imho.

Anyhow, I have some of the 3rd Edition Dragonlance books. I wasn't very impressed with them overall. The mechanics in them aren't very good, and if you just want setting, that's easy to get elsewhere.
The trouble is, as written, they invite and, in-fact, encourage disruptive behaviour on the part of players, like stealing from other players, and acting like a reckless idiot that messes up plans, a pint-sized LEEEROY Jenkins with a capital LEEE.
Oh, and they were practically a race of Mary Sues by been protected by the gods, despite, in-universe, people hating them as much as some players.
Could you play them 'right', i.e. not disruptively? Sure, but it would be a fairly radical departure from their depiction, even in the novels and short stories.

[Big Fau]

I've heard, heard mind, its biggest failing is a lot of high level NPC who basically act like Dues ex machina whenever the plot requires it rather then allowing the PC any actual freedom, and it had a metaplot so that if these NPC got killed, it would all simply fall apart, further restricting player freedom.

Funny, I can take this completely out of context and apply it to FR.




There's an infinite damage loop in the DLCS using a Dragonfire Adept. As written, one of the feats grants you the ability to use your breath weapon infinitely in a single round. This was before the invention of Swift actions, so that's easily fixed.

[Drachasor]

The trouble is, as written, they invite and, in-fact, encourage disruptive behaviour on the part of players, like stealing from other players, and acting like a reckless idiot that messes up plans, a pint-sized LEEEROY Jenkins with a capital LEEE.

This is why I said I like the 1st Edition rules. You didn't go around stealing from party members. You had a table for when you wanted to grab something out of your pocket.

As for being a reckless idiot, players that would do that need no excuse.


Oh, and they were practically a race of Mary Sues by been protected by the gods, despite, in-universe, people hating them as much as some players.

People hated them, but I don't see how they were a race of Mary Sues.


Could you play them 'right', i.e. not disruptively? Sure, but it would be a fairly radical departure from their depiction, even in the novels and short stories.

Actually, if you go by the books, Kender almost never do anything that disruptive compared to others. They occasionally borrow something that doesn't matter....and almost never borrow anything that matters (in a disruptive sense). Worst case they go after/grab something in a somewhat silly way, but that's no different really than anyone else. "Normal" people just don't say "oops". It especially nothing compared to what players do anyway.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Funny, I can take this completely out of context and apply it to FR.




There's an infinite damage loop in the DLCS using a Dragonfire Adept. As written, one of the feats grants you the ability to use your breath weapon infinitely in a single round. This was before the invention of Swift actions, so that's easily fixed.

Yes but it's still limited by the amount of free actions that your DM lets you have a round, so anyone with half a brain-cell would limit the amount you can have, problem solved.

[TechnOkami]

I'm part of a Dragonlance campaign, and it's outrageously funny. We have a Kender Rogue Nightstalker who if he were to fumble on a hide check, would still have like a +30 due to his skill level and the amount of magic items he has.

Oh, and Phaethons are probably the awesomest Elven race I have yet to see.

[Nachtritter]

The trouble is, as written, they invite and, in-fact, encourage disruptive behaviour on the part of players, like stealing from other players, and acting like a reckless idiot that messes up plans, a pint-sized LEEEROY Jenkins with a capital LEEE.
Oh, and they were practically a race of Mary Sues by been protected by the gods, despite, in-universe, people hating them as much as some players.
Could you play them 'right', i.e. not disruptively? Sure, but it would be a fairly radical departure from their depiction, even in the novels and short stories.

Raven's Cry, please stop reading my mind, because you are echoing my every thought.

This is my main complaint with Kender. I've only had the displeasure of having two Kender PCs in my games in the past - one in high school, where the Kenderism could be forgiven, and one in college, where it couldn't - but each time the PC in question did nothing but aggravate the rest of the group and steal small but vital stuff from the other PCs. I'm not sure what Wiess and Hickman were thinking at the time, but the majority of Kender players, in my experience, play CN a-holes who'll steal everything that isn't nailed down and then get defensive when you hit them with a greataxe or something.

[Safety Sword]

Raven's Cry, please stop reading my mind, because you are echoing my every thought.

This is my main complaint with Kender. I've only had the displeasure of having two Kender PCs in my games in the past - one in high school, where the Kenderism could be forgiven, and one in college, where it couldn't - but each time the PC in question did nothing but aggravate the rest of the group and steal small but vital stuff from the other PCs. I'm not sure what Wiess and Hickman were thinking at the time, but the majority of Kender players, in my experience, play CN a-holes who'll steal everything that isn't nailed down and then get defensive when you hit them with a greataxe or something.

"I found it."

"You dropped it and I picked it up so you wouldn't lose it again. You're very careless with your belongings you know."

"Can I see that? It looks like the one I lost the other day."

Kender played well are some of the most fun characters you can have in a party. BUT it only works if the other players understand what a true Kender is all about.

Otherwise it's an annoying rogue that you should hit with a greataxe.

[Jopustopin]

If a PC plays a kender just tell them they have to be "toned down" for reasons having everything to do with "fun."

I've played Dragonlance for a couple of years. Here are my thoughts:

*If you have a good DM, the test of high sorcery is awesome, and one of the best experiences that I've had.
*Phaethon's are probably the coolest race. They have a hefty (almost undeserved) +2 LA.
*I'm not a big fan of the pantheon.
*You simply cannot play a "normal" small race. The gnomes are even more annoying than kender. It's not a well known fact. The only two small races that are not annoying and can be fun to play are "afflicted kender" and "mad gnomes." AmIright?
*The "PC" base classes that are dragonlance specific are some of the worst ever. If I'd have to guess (Tier system for classes):

Noble - Tier 6
Mariner - Tier 6
Mystic - Tier 2
Nightstalker (Races of Ansalon pg. 153) - Probably Tier 3. Good flavor!
Master (War of Lance) - Probably Tier 5. It's like a PC version of the Expert. They can make a non-magical +5 weapons and armor which is kinda cool. But... why not... just find an NPC to make you one...

[Hecuba]

Oh poor Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman! And they've written other nice books too!

That was actually one of the people who was play-testing the setting with them if I recall. They were initially just a thief race: the rest was added on based on how the Tas character was played.

The thing with Kender is that the player has to role-play the Kender mindset. A Kender should have no concept of property outside possession: canonically, a Kender who leaves Kendermore comes back to his house being someone else's and should be perfectly fine with that.

Moreover, they shouldn't be selectively stealing useful things or selectively taking them from their party members. An interesting spoon should be just a lucrative to them as a CL 20 magical item.

I agree with Drachasor though-- the 1st ed treatment of Kender and borrowing is much better executed than nebulously defined 3rd.

[Coidzor]

Kender played well are some of the most fun characters you can have in a party. BUT it only works if the other players understand what a true Kender is all about.

No. It doesn't work then, either, as they understand and still can't stand your behavior at the table.


Funny, I can take this completely out of context and apply it to FR.

FR is not without its detractors, after all. :smallwink: But at least it doesn't have Kender to its name.

[Drachasor]

Raven's Cry, please stop reading my mind, because you are echoing my every thought.

This is my main complaint with Kender. I've only had the displeasure of having two Kender PCs in my games in the past - one in high school, where the Kenderism could be forgiven, and one in college, where it couldn't - but each time the PC in question did nothing but aggravate the rest of the group and steal small but vital stuff from the other PCs. I'm not sure what Wiess and Hickman were thinking at the time, but the majority of Kender players, in my experience, play CN a-holes who'll steal everything that isn't nailed down and then get defensive when you hit them with a greataxe or something.

K, sounds like this is largely a borrowing issue.

What you do is you make up a table or grab and modify the 1st Edition Dragonlance table for pulling stuff out of one's pocket. That should be how 99.9% of all borrowing is handled.

Then the player handles the important bits, like grabbing something significant from the big bad or whatever. He should be informed grabbing important things from players is not cool, but borrowing trivial stuff is fine. My Kender I played kept borrowing "Wizard's Life", a simple magazine, from the party's wizard. Beyond that, they can occasional RP something. If the Fighter is getting ready to poison his arrows, the Kender player can chime in "oh, you might want this poison of yours, I was just holding it for you." No rolls needed, and only done as flavor.

I think that probably handles pretty much all problems with Kender, and allows them to still be Kender. Beyond that they should just be somewhat childish (and very brave).

Some other stuff could be worked out depending on the party. If they want to be particularly impulsive and run and grab stuff or something, that should be largely flavor too, imho. Have a designated "color grabber" and you're set.

Beyond the borrowing list, this isn't generally any more work than it would be for any other character. Also remember, a player who is a disruptive Kender probably has some desire to just be disruptive, and that's a completely different problem. It's easy to find excuses to be a problem player and someone using Kender as an excuse could just as easily find another.


FR is not without its detractors, after all. :smallwink: But at least it doesn't have Kender to its name.

Not entirely true.

[Coidzor]

K, sounds like this is largely a borrowing issue.

Well, between the fact that it's encourages ye olde rogue = stealing everything from the party that is possible and then complaining that the group isn't letting them play their character when they mention how tedious and unpleasant watching their **** eating grin while they have conversations with the DM about how they're screwing over the rest of the players.

Of course that's the primary trait of kender that is disliked. It's the primary trait of kender.


What you do is you make up a table or grab and modify the 1st Edition Dragonlance table for pulling stuff out of one's pocket. That should be how 99.9% of all borrowing is handled.

Because everyone knows about that table, has ready access to it, and agrees that this is a better solution then sticking the heads of Kender on pikes and smacking the player for wanting to steal from the party with impunity. :smalltongue:


He should be informed grabbing important things from players is not cool

Considering that this should be basic knowledge for playing the game but isn't...


My Kender I played kept borrowing "Wizard's Life", a simple magazine, from the party's wizard. Beyond that, they can occasional RP something. If the Fighter is getting ready to poison his arrows, the Kender player can chime in "oh, you might want this poison of yours, I was just holding it for you." No rolls needed, and only done as flavor.

Because interrupting petty tasks that have nothing to do with your character is so endearing and doesn't have any capacity to get annoying after the 20th time.


Also remember, a player who is a disruptive Kender probably has some desire to just be disruptive, and that's a completely different problem. It's easy to find excuses to be a problem player and someone using Kender as an excuse could just as easily find another.

Yes, because that totally invalidates the fact that the text encourages people, especially newer players to be problem players like this is something that is desirable and good. And encourages DMs to reward and further encourage that kind of behavior.


Not entirely true.

Oh? FR contributed to the creation of Kender, eh?

[Big Fau]

FR is not without its detractors, after all. :smallwink: But at least it doesn't have Kender to its name.

I think Drizzt made up for that.

[Drachasor]

Well, between the fact that it's encourages ye olde rogue = stealing everything from the party that is possible and then complaining that the group isn't letting them play their character when they mention how tedious and unpleasant watching their **** eating grin while they have conversations with the DM about how they're screwing over the rest of the players.

Of course that's the primary trait of kender that is disliked. It's the primary trait of kender.

Like I said, it's purely a mechanic problem.


Because everyone knows about that table, has ready access to it, and agrees that this is a better solution then sticking the heads of Kender on pikes and smacking the player for wanting to steal from the party with impunity. :smalltongue:

You could try to treat this as a serious issue. Like I said, there's an easy enough solution. As for not knowing about the table, that's WHY I MENTIONED IT.


Considering that this should be basic knowledge for playing the game but isn't...

True, but disruptive play doesn't happen because people play Kender. People who are disruptive might pick Kender to play. Or they might do any of a number of other disruptive things. The problem is the player, not the race.


Because interrupting petty tasks that have nothing to do with your character is so endearing and doesn't have any capacity to get annoying after the 20th time.

Silly jokes now and then don't interrupt play to any meaningful degree. Nice to know you are willing to act like something you know very little about was a problem though. I think your perspective here is more than a little biased.


Yes, because that totally invalidates the fact that the text encourages people, especially newer players to be problem players like this is something that is desirable and good. And encourages DMs to reward and further encourage that kind of behavior.

Which is one of the reasons why I don't like the Dragonlance Campaign Setting for 3rd. It's not very good overall. There are many reasons, but this is certainly one of them. It needs to provide good mechanics and good advice. Lore is about the only thing it does well, and you don't need a book for that.


Oh? FR contributed to the creation of Kender, eh?

I meant there are Kender in FR if you know where and how to look. I never said FR contributed to the creation of Kender. The wonders of Spelljamming.

[NNescio]

I think Drizzt made up for that.

Also the Wall of the Faithless. Urgh... it's one of the few settings that justify a Rage Against the Heavens.

[Nachtritter]

All I know about Kender is that any character of mine now has a KOS policy on them.

Anyway. To get this back on track, I'll go on record and say that, while Dragonlance isn't my favorite DnD setting (that prize is currently tied up with a homebrew one of my friends came up with once and Eberron), it was my first DnD setting, so I largely forgive it of its flaws. It's a good system to get your feet wet in, though. Evil's evil, good's good, and there's a whole lot of dudes hitting each other with swords and spells in between. Good old-fashioned times.

... Vecna's Eye, you guys are making me wish gaming night would get here faster, now.