Evil angel equivilents?

[MammonAzrael]

Are there any Evil equivalents of angels? And, for that matter, Chaos/Law equivalents?

Note that Devils and Demons do not qualify. We have Archons, Guardinals, and Eladrin across the Good spectrum, while Angels can be any of the three.


I am not looking for a singular creature. I am looking for a race.

Demons are explicitly beings of manifest Chaos and Evil, and their direct opposites are Archons.
Devils are explicitly beings of manifest Law and Evil, and their direct opposites are Eladrin.
Yugoloths are explicitly beings of manifest Evil that are always neutral, and their direct opposites are Guardinals.

Angels are explicitly beings of manifest Good, and can be found as Lawful, Chaotic, or Neutral on a case-by-case basis. They are spread throughout the Good realms equally. There appears to be no such creature for the evil side of things.

Is that more clear?

Adding the above to help clarify. I'm not looking for any variation of angel. I'm looking for a completely different race, angel's direct opposites. From the sounds of the responses, it looks like they do not exist. But if anyone knows of one...great! :smallbiggrin:

[Maho-Tsukai]

While I am not sure it's what you want the infamous third party supplement "Secret Collage of Necromancy" has stats for an evil undead angel.(A "Death Angel.") The catch? That book is infamous for a reason...it's bad. Really bad... The necromancer class in it is so broken that it gets an SLA of a ninth level spell before any class in the game can cast ninths AND it actually gains access to it's own ninths one whole level before the WIZARD. Also, many of the spells are confusingly worded or have other issues. I don't remember if the death angel itself is as poorly-made as some of the other content of that book but if you do use it you may have to do some homebrewing to fix any issues with it.

[MammonAzrael]

Thanks for the suggestion, but not quite was I was looking for. I could whip up my own fallen/undead angels if I needed to. What I'm talking about is a separate race. Though from everything I've looked through, seems like there isn't one. :smallsigh:

[Kenneth]

so.. what you are looking for is a race of fiends of all differing evil alignments that fall under one race?

well teh reason why they do not exist in official D&D is really simple. Angels follow the good deities. and unlike evil Good works together pretty handily. the same cannot be said of the evil deities and other evil aligned entities.

[CockroachTeaParty]

I believe what you are looking for is something known as a baernoloth.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/3/37/Baernaloth.jpg


They are extremely enigmatic, however. I'm not sure if there were any published statistics for them... there might be some in a Dungeon/Dragon magazine somewhere, and there's a preposterous custom-statted one floating around online somewhere... here it is. (http://www.dnd-gate.de/gate3/page/index.php?id=1525) o_o

Whatever they are, they are a primeval evil outsider race, rumored to have perhaps created the first demons (obyriths?), devils (the mysterious native baatorians?), and yugoloths.

[Ravens_cry]

You could always take existing Evil creatures, devil, demon, and daemon alike, and homebrew a new cosmology where they all work together. There is a bit of a problem with this however. Evil creatures tend to be more powerful individually. In standard D&D, the Devils are fighting the Demons as much as the Angels, Archons, and other Celestials. This keeps a balance of power. If you have all Evil creatures under one banner, you would have to seriously beef up the Good creatures to make it plausible that they are keeping them at bay.

[Killer Angel]

Are there any Evil equivalents of angels? And, for that matter, Chaos/Law equivalents?


In AD&D, I clearly remember that Fallen Angel exists, but still it's a creature that started its existance from "good".

[Necro_EX]

Well, if we're talking fallen angels there's always the Devil Erinyes. Found easily in 3.5's MM1...I want to say some book expanded upon them a bit.

[Yuki Akuma]

Fallen Angels.

Really.

A few of the Archdevils and Demon Lords are even fallen angels. :smallwink:

You really could just use the stats for angels and switch out all mentions of "good" with "evil" and it would work fine.

[Eldan]

Angels are the servants of gods, as opposed to be exemplars of particular planes. So, just look up what the various evil gods are mentioned as using as servants.

The only one I remember right away is Seth, with his shapeshifting crocodile people.

[DiBastet]

I believe what you are looking for is something known as a baernoloth.

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/3/37/Baernaloth.jpg


That's actually an Astradaemon, from pathfinder's Bestiary 2. They are daemons, filling almost the same niche as yoguloths. There's a whole race of different ones.

[TheGeckoKing]

That's actually an Astradaemon, from pathfinder's Bestiary 2. They are daemons, filling almost the same niche as yoguloths. There's a whole race of different ones.

Yup. I believe this is a Baernaloth (http://arcanofox.foxpaws.net/Baernaloth). Also, I found some cool stats for 'em here (http://www.enworld.org/forum/homebrews/132922-revised-demons-daemons-devils-part-deux.html#post2265423).

[Getsugaru]

Erinyes. :smallcool:

[MammonAzrael]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

From all the suggestions, it appears that baernaloths are the closest to what I'm asking about, but it seems there are no official evil mirrors of angels. There is no race of creatures that works for/is Evil, but spans the Law/Chaos axis on an individual basis like Angels do for Good.

One thing I liked about 4th Edition was that they just said "Ok, Angels aren't good anymore. They serve everyone." And neat way to address the issue. :smallsmile:

And I wasn't looking for Fallen Angels (or a homebrew) because I was specifically needing a different race, as it would be incorporated (if it had existed) into something I'm working on.

[Eldan]

The baern are quite specifically NE, I'd think. The thirteen, especially. They are, after all, the precursors of the other 'loth.

[Xtomjames]

In game demons and fiends are the opposites of angels and archons and devils the opposites of the gods. Some that might fit your need would be the Bulezau, Lilitu, Nabassu, (higher demons) Fraz-Urb'luu and Graz'zt may work as well. Malcanthet is also a strong possibility as well as Orcus and Pazuzu. Though bear in mind the last five are Demon Lords and rather high in CR.

In the Fiend-Folio there are Devas and Devils listed, and if you apply the Shadow Template to a Deva you could get an Evil based Angel. You could also consider the Baatezu, the Assassin Devil (Dogai), Harvester Devil, Legion Devil, Steel Devil, Archdevils are way too high in CR to mention here.

Other options would be to just change an Angel to be a different alignment from being good aligned or to apply a fiendish template to one making them evil.

You could also have a look at the 3rd party Swords and Sorcery book Anger of Angels which have rules for making a fallen angel.

In the D20 Evil (by AEG for 3rd and 3.5 edition) has rules for Fallen Heroes and for rules for making a character evil. One of the easiest ways is to make the character using an Evil Archetype (which is a set of traits). You might also find some help in the Villain Design Handbook for 3.5

[MammonAzrael]

In game demons and fiends are the opposites of angels and archons and devils the opposites of the gods. Some that might fit your need would be the Bulezau, Lilitu, Nabassu, (higher demons) Fraz-Urb'luu and Graz'zt may work as well. Malcanthet is also a strong possibility as well as Orcus and Pazuzu. Though bear in mind the last five are Demon Lords and rather high in CR.

Not quite. As I covered in later posts, none of those creatures work. Additionally, I am not looking for a singular creature. I am looking for a race.

Demons are explicitly beings of manifest Chaos and Evil, and their direct opposites are Archons.
Devils are explicitly beings of manifest Law and Evil, and their direct opposites are Eladrin.
Yugoloths are explicitly beings of manifest Evil that are always neutral, and their direct opposites are Guardinals.

Angels are explicitly beings of manifest Good, and can be found as Lawful, Chaotic, or Neutral on a case-by-case basis. They are spread throughout the Good realms equally. There appears to be no such creature for the evil side of things.

Is that more clear?

[Zonugal]

You might look at the Concordant Killer from Monster Manual 4. They aren't super evil (in fact they are beings of pure neutrality) but they might serve as a good foundation to base something off of.

Plus they look like this:
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm4_gallery/98674.jpg

[LansXero]

Libris Mortis has an undead angel, does it not?

[Jayh]

Somewhere in the demovitator threat is a beautiful picture of a collossal fallen angel with two gargantuan horned dogs. the picture could cause 3 campaign arcs right there.

[Xtomjames]

Not quite. As I covered in later posts, none of those creatures work. Additionally, I am not looking for a singular creature. I am looking for a race.

Demons are explicitly beings of manifest Chaos and Evil, and their direct opposites are Archons.
Devils are explicitly beings of manifest Law and Evil, and their direct opposites are Eladrin.
Yugoloths are explicitly beings of manifest Evil that are always neutral, and their direct opposites are Guardinals.

Angels are explicitly beings of manifest Good, and can be found as Lawful, Chaotic, or Neutral on a case-by-case basis. They are spread throughout the Good realms equally. There appears to be no such creature for the evil side of things.

Is that more clear?


This maybe the case for your specific campaign, but it is not the case in general for the whole of the D&D books. Angels and Archons are the upper celestial beings and they're only slightly related to the gods. Demons and Devils are their opposites and again they're only slightly related to the Arch-Devils and Arch Demons (who are essentially the opposite of the gods).

Eladrin (according to the Book of Exalted Deeds) are subtypes of Archons and Guardinal and thus do not have a direct opposite like you suggest. Guardinals are part of the Elysium which is part of the Celestial planes and arguably are a subtype of Angel. Unlike Angels, I'd point out that ALL EVIL is their opposition and thus again have no specific mirror.

This all said, I can point out a few things, Devils and Demons are classified as their own races. A Tainted Angel, Archon, Guardinal, or Eladrin will do what you're wanting without much hassle. As would a Corrupted Angel, Archon, Guardinal, or Eladrin (see BoVD page 186). You could also use any number of evil templates to pull of what you want.

For example Female Fiendish Astral Deva Outsider 10
Neutral Evil



Strength 24 (+7)
Dexterity 23 (+6)
Constitution 23 (+6)
Intelligence 20 (+5)
Wisdom 18 (+4)
Charisma 26 (+8)
Size: Medium
Height: 6' 2"
Weight: 110 lb
Skin: Silvery
Eyes: Violet
Hair: Blue Straight




Total Hit Points: 102

Speed: 50 feet

Armor Class: 31 = 10 +6 [dexterity] +15 [astral deva]

Touch AC: 16
Flat-footed: 25
Initiative modifier: +6 = +6 [dexterity]
Fortitude save: +13 = 7 [base] +6 [constitution]
Reflex save: +13 = 7 [base] +6 [dexterity]
Will save: +11 = 7 [base] +4 [wisdom]
Attack (handheld): +17/+12 = 10 [base] +7 [strength]
Attack (unarmed): +17/+12 = 10 [base] +7 [strength]
Attack (missile): +16/+11 = 10 [base] +6 [dexterity]
Grapple check: +17/+12 = 10 [base] +7 [strength]


Light load:
Medium load:
Heavy load:
Lift over head:
Lift off ground:
Push or drag:
233 lb. or less
234-466 lb.
467-700 lb.
700 lb.
1400 lb.
3500 lb.




Languages: Abyssal Celestial Common Draconic Elven Infernal



Feats:

Combat Reflexes
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave

Traits:

Farsighted
Skinny


Skill Name Key
Ability Skill
Modifier Ability
Modifier Ranks Misc.
Modifier
Appraise Int 5 = +5
Balance Dex* 6 = +6
Bluff Cha 8 = +8
Climb Str* 7 = +7
Concentration Con 6 = +6
Craft_1 Int 18 = +5 +13
Craft_2 Int 5 = +5
Craft_3 Int 5 = +5
Diplomacy Cha 16 = +8 +6 +2 [sense motive]
Disguise Cha 8 = +8
Escape Artist Dex* 7 = +6 +1 [skinny]
Forgery Int 5 = +5
Gather Information Cha 8 = +8
Heal Wis 4 = +4
Hide Dex* 6 = +6
Intimidate Cha 14 = +8 +6
Jump Str* 15 = +7 +8 [speed 50]
Knowledge (arcana) Int 18 = +5 +13
Knowledge (history) Int 18 = +5 +13
Knowledge (nature) Int 8 = +5 +3
Knowledge (religion) Int 18 = +5 +13
Knowledge (planes) Int 18 = +5 +13
Listen Wis 21 = +4 +13 +4 [astral deva]
Move Silently Dex* 19 = +6 +13
Perform_1 Cha 8 = +8
Perform_2 Cha 8 = +8
Perform_3 Cha 8 = +8
Perform_4 Cha 8 = +8
Perform_5 Cha 8 = +8
Ride Dex 6 = +6
Search Int 3 = +5 -2 [farsighted]
Sense Motive Wis 17 = +4 +13
Spellcraft Int 13 = +5 +6 +2 [Knowledge, arcane]
Spot Wis 22 = +4 +13 +1 [farsighted] +4 [astral deva]
Survival Wis 4 = +4
Swim Str** 7 = +7
Use Rope Dex 6 = +6
Knowledge
(psionics) Int 18 = +5 +13


* = check penalty for wearing armor

Craft_1 >=5 ranks gives +2 on related appraise checks.
Know Planes >=5 ranks gives +2 on survival checks on other planes.
Skinny trait: -2 on strength checks to avoid being overrun / bullrushed.


Astral Deva:


+12 strength, +8 dexterity, +8 constitution, +8 intelligence, +8 wisdom, +10 charisma (already included)

Outsider types; always good

Darkvision 60 feet

Fly 100 feet (good)

+4 on listen and spot (already included)

Spells and shape-changing

Damage reduction 10/+1; spell resistance 30

Protective aura, fire resistance 20, electricity cold acid and petrification immunity, +4 save vs. poison

Uncanny dodge; never caught flat-footed and cannot be flanked

Magical abilities, stunning weapon

Level adjustment +8

Fiendish Template:

Darkvision 60 feet

Smite good once per day

Cold and fire resistance

Damage reduction at levels >=4

Level adjustment +4 (?)

Spell resistance =HD+5, maximum 25


Class HP rolled
Level 1: Outsider 8
Level 2: Outsider 5
Level 3: Outsider 1
Level 4: Outsider 8 +1 to constitution
Level 5: Outsider 2
Level 6: Outsider 1
Level 7: Outsider 1
Level 8: Outsider 4 +1 to constitution
Level 9: Outsider 5
Level 10: Outsider 7




Equipment:


0 lb
_____
0 lb Weapons / Armor / Shield (from above)

Total





More about this character:

Since there is no specific race that fits what you want you'll need to work with what you have.

[Volthawk]

Libris Mortis has an undead angel, does it not?

It's not actually related to angels, though. It says "an angel of decay may appear similar to an angelic outsider only by happenstance, not design."

[Yuki Akuma]

This maybe the case for your specific campaign, but it is not the case in general for the whole of the D&D books. Angels and Archons are the upper celestial beings and they're only slightly related to the gods. Demons and Devils are their opposites and again they're only slightly related to the Arch-Devils and Arch Demons (who are essentially the opposite of the gods).

Eladrin (according to the Book of Exalted Deeds) are subtypes of Archons and Guardinal and thus do not have a direct opposite like you suggest. Guardinals are part of the Elysium which is part of the Celestial planes and arguably are a subtype of Angel. Unlike Angels, I'd point out that ALL EVIL is their opposition and thus again have no specific mirror.

...I'm really not sure where you got any of these ideas from.

Archons are the Lawful Good exemplars. Eladrin are the Chaotic Good exemplars. Guardinals are the Neutral Good exemplars. They're all equal to one another.

Demons, Devils and Daemons/Yugoloths are the Chaotic Evil, Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil exemplars, respectively.

Angels are generic Good-aligned outsiders and don't have an Evil counterpart at all.

Archdevils and Demon Lords aren't gods - there are evil gods, you know. They're just very powerful Devils and Demons.

[Xtomjames]

...I'm really not sure where you got any of these ideas from.

Archons are the Lawful Good exemplars. Eladrin are the Chaotic Good exemplars. Guardinals are the Neutral Good exemplars. They're all equal to one another.

Demons, Devils and Daemons/Yugoloths are the Chaotic Evil, Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil exemplars, respectively.

Angels are generic Good-aligned outsiders and don't have an Evil counterpart at all.

Archdevils and Demon Lords aren't gods - there are evil gods, you know. They're just very powerful Devils and Demons.


You're correct in some respects. Eladrin however are, as described, part Archon part Gudardinal. Daemons/Yugoloths are again in between Demons and Devils and derived there from. All you've done here is state what I've said but more specifically.

Demon Lords and Arch Devils are "gods" in parallel to the Pantheons, in respect of hierarchy and power. While there are Evil Gods, they exist in the upper planes (Celestia, Elysium, etc) the Demon Lords and Arch Devils are the Hellish equivalents of gods. They are the ones that can grant Profane ranks, powers, etc. They are the ones worshiped like gods and have powers on par with many of the gods. They rule the hells of the D&D world.

I was only trying to point out the general mirrors of the Heavenly beings to the Hellish beings in game. Since the OP wanted an "evil angel" there are parallel creatures in the demon and devil ranks that can act in this capacity.

[MammonAzrael]

This maybe the case for your specific campaign, but it is not the case in general for the whole of the D&D books. Angels and Archons are the upper celestial beings and they're only slightly related to the gods. Demons and Devils are their opposites and again they're only slightly related to the Arch-Devils and Arch Demons (who are essentially the opposite of the gods).

Eladrin (according to the Book of Exalted Deeds) are subtypes of Archons and Guardinal and thus do not have a direct opposite like you suggest. Guardinals are part of the Elysium which is part of the Celestial planes and arguably are a subtype of Angel. Unlike Angels, I'd point out that ALL EVIL is their opposition and thus again have no specific mirror.

This all said, I can point out a few things, Devils and Demons are classified as their own races. A Tainted Angel, Archon, Guardinal, or Eladrin will do what you're wanting without much hassle. As would a Corrupted Angel, Archon, Guardinal, or Eladrin (see BoVD page 186). You could also use any number of evil templates to pull of what you want.

As Yuki Akuma said, I'm not sure where you got these ideas from.

Eladrin are "distant cousins to the neutral good guardinals and lawful good archons."BoED 168 This does not mean they are a subtype. Indeed, you can't have a subtype of a subtype,; Eladrin is its own, unique subtype, and creatures that have it are always both Good and Chaotic. Therefore their direct opposite must be the subtype that is always lawful and Evil aka Devils.

Elysium is not part of Celestia. It is a separate plane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Plane). Saying that is is is like saying that Mechanus is part of Baator. Celestia is LG, Elysium is NG.

Guardinals are not arguably a subtype of angel. There is no mention of them being a subtype. Guardinal is a specific subtype, in no way attached to the angel subtype. Of course they are opposed to all Evil, since they are Neutral Good. Just like their opposites, the yugoloth, are Neutral Evil.

A corrupted good creature does not serve the purpose I need. I was looking for a race that mirrors angels. Because I'm working on a homebrew that involves being a descendant of other races. I've already got versions for Archons, Demons, Guardinals, Yugoloths, Eladrin, Devils, and Angels (and more). So I was trying to discover if angels have a mirror race. Apparently they do not.

EDIT: Again, I am not looking for a parallel creature. I am looking for a parallel race. The opening post states this clearly.

Arch Devils/Demons are not the mirrors of the Good-aligned Gods. Evil-aligned Gods are the mirrors of Good-aligned ones. Thats how being a mirror works. I'm not saying that high-powered demon/devils can't compete (they can, just like suitably powerful mortals), but they do not have a divine rank. The are not gods. Therefore, they cannot be a god's mirror. Erythnul, Gruumsh, Hextor, Kurtulmak, Lolth, Nerull, Tiamat and Vecna - These are the Good god's mirrors (list taken from Complete Divine 109).

Eladrin are the Chaotic Good counterpart to the LG Archons and NG Guardinals. To say that Eladrin are part and part of the other two is just as effective as saying that guardinals are part archon and part eladrin.

[Xtomjames]

As Yuki Akuma said, I'm not sure where you got these ideas from.

Eladrin are "distant cousins to the neutral good guardinals and lawful good archons."BoED 168 This does not mean they are a subtype. Indeed, you can't have a subtype of a subtype,; Eladrin is its own, unique subtype, and creatures that have it are always both Good and Chaotic. Therefore their direct opposite must be the subtype that is always lawful and Evil aka Devils.

Elysium is not part of Celestia. It is a separate plane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Plane). Saying that is is is like saying that Mechanus is part of Baator. Celestia is LG, Elysium is NG.

Guardinals are not arguably a subtype of angel. There is no mention of them being a subtype. Guardinal is a specific subtype, in no way attached to the angel subtype. Of course they are opposed to all Evil, since they are Neutral Good. Just like their opposites, the yugoloth, are Neutral Evil.

A corrupted good creature does not serve the purpose I need. I was looking for a race that mirrors angels. Because I'm working on a homebrew that involves being a descendant of other races. I've already got versions for Archons, Demons, Guardinals, Yugoloths, Eladrin, Devils, and Angels (and more). So I was trying to discover if angels have a mirror race. Apparently they do not.

EDIT: Again, I am not looking for a parallel creature. I am looking for a parallel race.

Arch Devils/Demons are not the mirrors of the Good-aligned Gods. Evil-aligned Gods are the mirrors of Good-aligned ones. Thats how being a mirror works. I'm not saying that high-powered demon/devils can't compete (they can, just like suitably powerful mortals), but they do not have a divine rank. The are not gods. Therefore, they cannot be a god's mirror. Erythnul, Gruumsh, Hextor, Kurtulmak, Lolth, Nerull, Tiamat and Vecna - These are the Good god's mirrors (list taken from Complete Divine 109).

Eladrin are the Chaotic Good counterpart to the LG Archons and NG Guardinals. To say that Eladrin are part and part of the other two is just as effective as saying that guardinals are part archon and part eladrin.

Then we clearly have differing opinions as to what classifies a Mirror race/monster class. We'll have to respectfully disagree with each other.

However, there isn't a mirror for Angels. At least not as far as I can tell if we are to presume your mirror classification as the basis. Again you can always apply an evil template to an Angel to get an opposing alignment and thus get an equivalent to an evil mirror of an angel (I provided an example a few posts back).

Again the Third Party book Anger of Angels has a Fallen Angel template. You could specifically look into the Erinyes, but again this is a Monster not a Race.


A potential mirror to the Angel would be the Genie and the Inevitables, though, again they're not races but monster classes. Another possibility would be Oni from the Oriental Adventures/Unapproachable East/The Book of the Shadowlands.

You could also apply the Shadow Creature Template to any angel to get a Shadow Angel.

[MammonAzrael]

Then we clearly have differing opinions as to what classifies a Mirror race/monster class. We'll have to respectfully disagree with each other.

I appreciate your continued civility and attempts to help. :smallsmile: Apparently on this point we will have to agree to disagree.


However, there isn't a mirror for Angels. At least not as far as I can tell if we are to presume your mirror classification as the basis. Again you can always apply an evil template to an Angel to get an opposing alignment and thus get an equivalent to an evil mirror of an angel (I provided an example a few posts back).

Unfortunately, this appears to be the case. I couldn't find one, and was hoping that I had simply missed it. And unfortunately, simply applying any kind of template does not work for my purposes, as what I need would be the mirror's various racial features and tendencies. It isn't going to destroy my homebrew, as I don't need a mirror race. I simply wanted to include it if it existed.


Again the Third Party book Anger of Angels has a Fallen Angel template. You could specifically look into the Erinyes, but again this is a Monster not a Race.

A potential mirror to the Angel would be the Genie and the Inevitables, though, again they're not races but monster classes. Another possibility would be Oni from the Oriental Adventures/Unapproachable East/The Book of the Shadowlands.

You could also apply the Shadow Creature Template to any angel to get a Shadow Angel.

Genies may well be an included option, as they are recognizable enough as a distinct style of creature (even if they don't have a subtype). Inevitables are very close, but I view them as the Lawful mirrors of Guardinals and Yugoloths, given that they are always LN (Slaad are the Chaotic mirrors). They don't span all three version of Lawful, and Angels do with Good.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Aren't inevitables something of a new arrival? I thought modrons were the LN exemplars, which might make the inevitables similar to angels in that they're sort of outside the hierarchy.

The fact that they're not even outsiders makes them kind of wonky to include in these kind of discussions...

[MammonAzrael]

Aren't inevitables something of a new arrival? I thought modrons were the LN exemplars, which might make the inevitables similar to angels in that they're sort of outside the hierarchy.

The fact that they're not even outsiders makes them kind of wonky to include in these kind of discussions...

Agreed, but with homebrew I find it best to work with base 3.5 cosmology. In which modrons no longer exist.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Agreed, but with homebrew I find it best to work with base 3.5 cosmology. In which modrons no longer exist.

It's too bad; I kind of like modrons. What about formians, then?

[MammonAzrael]

Thats right, the ant people. They are the real LN Outsider race, and thus the appropriate choice. A bit squicky to think of them as your ancestors though.

[Tetrasodium]

I think inevitables might have been around before 3.5, they got some pretty heavy development through 3.5 in general though.
I know it's not what you asked for.... but Pazuzu fits the bill & I can't think of any other unnhamed generic creatures that do the same.
On a different approach however, angels and archons can do just fine for the job if you approach them as creatures with an alien mindset with alien motives and goals that don't simply conform to our subjective view of good/evil (right/wrong) similar to how Jim Butcher handles the fae, outsiders, angels, etc over the course of the dresden files novels. The closer to humans that something is, the easier it is to peg to our view of good & evil (i.e. the various vampires). It gets particularly interesting once you start to really understand it in the most recent one (ghost story) as already developed but hard to understand Lea/Uriel/Demonreach/Mab/etc & new arrivals like an angel of death by interacting with them in ways very different and not really possible prior to that point in the series.
Basically in a nutshell... Humans have free will and are able to go against their nature while many of the more powerful supernatural types lack true free will and have a very different set of concerns than most of us.
The summer court fae are responsible for growth, warmth, heat, & other such things while The Winter Court are concerned with things like cold, darkness, sleep death, destruction, etc giving the impression that the summer court might be more friendly & pleasant.. but they are two sides to the same coin & unchecked growth helps a pear tree as much as an ebola virus. Without the two, plants would grow unchecked & out of control squeezing us out of our cities or the world would get lost in another ice age far worse than previous ice ages. In ghost story you really start to understand the mindset of the winter court & fae in general by seeing the sort of things they do value in ways that would be difficult to see before that point in the seemingly(but not) contrasting light of their past actions

[Yuki Akuma]

Agreed, but with homebrew I find it best to work with base 3.5 cosmology. In which modrons no longer exist.

Ahem. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010921a)tenletters

[MammonAzrael]

Ahem. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20010921a)

Sadly the Manual of the Planes is 3.0 material, and is overwritten by the 3.5 material that is the Planar Handbook. :smallfrown: The only 3.5 material I am aware of that deals with modrons is in Dragon magazine 354.

[Yuki Akuma]

Sadly the Manual of the Planes is 3.0 material, and is overwritten by the 3.5 material that is the Planar Handbook. :smallfrown: The only 3.5 material I am aware of that deals with modrons is in Dragon magazine 354.

That web supplement was not overriden.

You can use the 3.5 update booklet to update it to 3.5 quite easily.

So do that. Because Formians suck and are from Arcadia in any case, not Mechanus.

[Tvtyrant]

I always refluffed outsider undead as being opposite of Angels, since they are beings of pure evil. Nightshades especially fill a similar niche; if you fluff Angels as being positive as well as good you make them work really well.

Also, since their gensis isn't covered, you can make the affiliation of some demons and devils with undead the same as the affiliation of good beings with angels.

[MammonAzrael]

That web supplement was not overriden.

You can use the 3.5 update booklet to update it to 3.5 quite easily.

So do that. Because Formians suck and are from Arcadia in any case, not Mechanus.

I find myself agreeing with your obviously correct and unbiased logic. :smallbiggrin:


I always refluffed outsider undead as being opposite of Angels, since they are beings of pure evil. Nightshades especially fill a similar niche; if you fluff Angels as being positive as well as good you make them work really well.

Also, since their gensis isn't covered, you can make the affiliation of some demons and devils with undead the same as the affiliation of good beings with angels.

Well, I will be having an undead option, so perhaps that will make a nice contrast to the angelic lineage.

[Tvtyrant]

I find myself agreeing with your obviously correct and unbiased logic. :smallbiggrin:



Well, I will be having an undead option, so perhaps that will make a nice contrast to the angelic lineage.

The Nighthawk and Nightwalker match up CR wise with the lower angels, and Lava/Winter Wights are matched with the Solar (though the Shadow of the Void is essentially a Nightshade).

Or we could make something; Divine casting + Arcane spell likes seems the normal route.

[Talya]

Unfortunately, the symetry you're looking for doesn't exist, and for a reason.

Asmodeus once had feathered wings and the holy nimbus of an archangel. Devils are Angels.

Devils were the celestial beings (primarily angels) that were assigned by the upper planes the duty of combating the destructive Chaos of the Abyss. Sadly, Nietzsche was not yet born, so nobody had yet warned them to be careful about staring into the Abyss. These celestial warriors followed their duty for countless aeons, fighting a mighty blood war that raged longer than even the gods can remember. And in the end, the cost for them was what made them celestial beings. They held on to their duty and order, but lost what made them good. They still fight the blood war to this day, but they no longer bear any resemblance to the creatures that took up their duty to do battle against the Abyss.

There is no single race of evil beings like angels that works for evil, because evil never is, and never will be, united. Many evil outsiders were once good, but have become corrupted over time, but these abominations are locked into a singular niche by that point.

[DiBastet]

There was the Marut before 3e, alone and by itself, a lawful thing that hunted down those who cheated death.

The others were made for 3rd edition D&D to make a group with a theme similar to the marut, so yes, they are the new arrivals.

And people who didn't play planescape with ditterlizy images usually can't like them.

[Psyren]

There is no single race of evil beings like angels that works for evil, because evil never is, and never will be, united. Many evil outsiders were once good, but have become corrupted over time, but these abominations are locked into a singular niche by that point.

Undead are pretty across the board evil-wise. I definitely think extraplanar undead could be a nice foil to Angels.

[mucco]

I've always seen Yugoloth as the Angel counterparts. Extraplanar, Neutral Evil, dominant in the NE plane, strong, having their own subtype, and with a long history (AD&D 1 I think?). Perfect counterparts.

Nobody seems to use them, but they're really fine. Their traits aren't as awesome as those of angels, but not that bad either.

[Eldan]

That still makes the 'loths the counterpart of the guardinals, though.

Extraplanar, Neutral Good, dominant in the NG plane, having their own subtype, no idea how old their history is but they were in Planescape.

Again, these are exemplars. Angels are servants.

[Ravens_cry]

Undead are pretty across the board evil-wise. I definitely think extraplanar undead could be a nice foil to Angels.
Mostly the ones that feed on the living or did something BAD to become undead.
Even in Core, Mummies, both common and Mummy Lords, are only Usually evil and Ghosts retain their alignments in life, which means you could have the shiniest Paladin who was unable to fulfil a vow come back as a Ghost in order to do so. Besides, Undead as a whole don't have goals that conflict with Celestial goals in the way Devils, Demons and other Evil sub-type critters do.

[Gullintanni]

Undead are pretty across the board evil-wise. I definitely think extraplanar undead could be a nice foil to Angels.

This actually works out pretty well IMO. If you treat Angels as exemplars of Life rather than specifically of Good, then they can still fit into the same niche role, and then undead, who exemplify Death, naturally become their polar opposites.

And given that Life and Death are both unambiguously Good and Evil in nature in the D&D cosmology, you're not going to cause any problems.

In terms of the canon answer? I'm pretty sure that the Devils are indeed fallen Angels, twisted beyond recognition. That they're all Lawful Evil says nothing about their Celestial heritage and that Angels could be of varied alignments, but rather, that Asmodeus successfully imprinted his order-above-all philosophy onto his servants.

[Eldan]

And given that Life and Death are both unambiguously Good and Evil in nature in the D&D cosmology...


Since when? Positive and negative energy are both neutral. There's good-aligned undead, and non-evil gods of death. I'm sure with some digging, you can find some evil god of life, for some twisted reason.

[Ravens_cry]

Since when? Positive and negative energy are both neutral. There's good-aligned undead, and non-evil gods of death. I'm sure with some digging, you can find some evil god of life, for some twisted reason.
Three words: The Burning Hate.:smallbiggrin:
A more . . .proactive, eco-terrorist style, nature god would likely make a good Evil Life deity.

[hamishspence]

If clerics can get power from Elder Evils, the way they can from quasi-deities, Ragnorra might work- an Elder Evil which is very life-centric.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

If clerics can get power from Elder Evils, the way they can from quasi-deities, Ragnorra might work- an Elder Evil which is very life-centric.

To be fair, idea-based clerics are core, even if it brushes up on some sticky wickets.

[Tvtyrant]

Mostly the ones that feed on the living or did something BAD to become undead.
Even in Core, Mummies, both common and Mummy Lords, are only Usually evil and Ghosts retain their alignments in life, which means you could have the shiniest Paladin who was unable to fulfil a vow come back as a Ghost in order to do so. Besides, Undead as a whole don't have goals that conflict with Celestial goals in the way Devils, Demons and other Evil sub-type critters do.

Extinction of all of their followers? In a way they are more directly opposed to the gods because they are involved with the prime material to a much greater degree then the celestials are.

And again focusing on extra-planar undead makes it more viable, particularly the Nightshades. They are always evil without a second axis, they have similar CRs and go up against the angels "light" motif.

[Ravens_cry]

Who says undead want everyone else dead? Like I said, there is nothing unifying undead. At the very least, ghouls and vampires want life to stay in existance so they can still feed. Liches just want to live forever for whatever their goals are. Ghosts have their own goals again.
Extraplaner undead are . . .interesting. In many ways they are more a negative energy ecology then undead in the "former corpse" or restless spirit sense.
It might work, but it would need some major homebrew of fluff and crunch to really make a solid fit in my opinion.