Balor Vs. Lvl 11 Druid - Tatics Discussion

[Icezin]

Here's the deal, I'm Lvl 11 Druid and my dm thinks i'm disbalancing the game, so he presented me this challenge, i'll confront a Balor, if i surivive, he'll let me keep the character. I have improved initiative, greenbound summoning, fast wildshape and natural spell. Wisdom = 26, Dex= 18, Const = 16, Car= 16, Int = 16 and Str= 10.
What are the thoughts about this duel, am i able to win or there's no hope?
Any Tips, advices, tatics would be most welcome. Thanks in advance for the attention!

[enderlord99]

Here's the deal, I'm Lvl 11 Druid and my dm thinks i'm disbalancing the game, so he presented me this challenge, i'll confront a Balor, if i surivive, he'll let me keep the character.

So, if it's somewhat unbalancing, you lose it, but if it's even stronger than a balor you keep it? That's backwards, IMO.

[Zaq]

Wait. So your GM thinks you're unbalanced, but if you can successfully take on a famously powerful creature well above your level, then you can stay? Wouldn't that just PROVE that you're unbalanced and overpowered? I can't see this ending well.

[enderlord99]

Wait. So your GM thinks you're unbalanced, but if you can successfully take on a famously powerful creature well above your level, then you can stay? Wouldn't that just PROVE that you're unbalanced and overpowered? I can't see this ending well.

That's what I said.

[Zaq]

Indeed.

What he said.

[Xyk]

I agree with the others. It sounds like he's trying to trick you into breaking the game wide open so he can say "Look! You broke the game wide open!".

[DeAnno]

This could be a trap. He might be planning to ban the character only if it can defeat the Balor.

In the case that you actually want to defeat it, it could be pretty hard. You won't crack its SR with your spells or its DR with your natural attacks, so all your best direct offensive options are pretty limited. You lack Assay SR and True Casting so the standard SR cracking tricks don't apply, and afaik Druids don't have any SR:No DD (or perhaps any DD at all) worth discussing.

Kiting it with its Fly 90 will be hard, and you have to Kite it because you have 11 HD and it has CL 20 SLA Blasphemy which will own you hardcore if it hits you (paralyzed, weakened, dazed, assuming you aren't evil). While the range on Blasphemy isn't too bad (40 ft), it also has Power Word Stun which can hit from 75 ft away and stun you till you're real real dead.

Theoretically the idea would be to spam it with summoned creatures and maybe slowly wear it down to death, but you have to do that while Kiting it, and SNA has a casting time of 1 round. I think this will require either a Wild Shape that is unbelievably fast (and perhaps stealthy) for 11 HD (maybe that wouldn't even be enough) or ridiculous levels of cheese.

[Cruiser1]

Wait. So your GM thinks you're unbalanced, but if you can successfully take on a famously powerful creature well above your level, then you can stay? Wouldn't that just PROVE that you're unbalanced and overpowered? I can't see this ending well.This situation reminds me of the Babylon 5 episode "A Day in the Strife (http://www.tv.com/babylon-5/a-day-in-the-strife/episode/25181/recap.html)". An Alien probe comes to test a civilization's knowledge, asking a bunch of highly technical questions only an advanced civilization can answer. Answer correctly, and the probe will help your civilization further by giving you lots of additional technology, cures to all known diseases, etc. Answer incorrectly, and the probe will kill you. You are able to figure out the answers in time, however...
You don't want to actually transmit the answers! The probe is lying. It's acually looking to kill advanced civilizations that might be a threat to it. It won't kill you if you aren't able to prove yourself. Instead it will kill you if you are able to demonstrate power. Hence, your Druid should indeed intentionally let the Balor kill you, and you'll be able to keep your character.

[Tvtyrant]

My suggestion would be to use Quickened Entangle + Insect Plague; both have a range of over 400 ft. and are SR: No. Then use Control Winds to create a circular wall of wind around you, and then Sudden Maximize: Call Lightning Storm for 50 damage lightning bolts. Then sit and shoot at it from afar while it fights the insects. Or use the insects and summon other things to attack it while trying to stay far away.

[Coidzor]

...If you beat a Balor with a level 11 character that he thinks is unbalancing the game, he'll let you keep it.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot.

My advice to you... Well, I guess you could always bite the DM.

[opticalshadow]

id get a new DM, because with that line of logic, who knows what he may do one day,

[Kalirren]

I dunno, I can see it. There's at least a few gamist impulses in me that understand the appeal of posing the challenge in those terms.

Really I would expect to not be playing that character in a few more sessions, or to prepare a different character for use with the rest of the party, but if you do win that character'll still be YOURS, you know.

[Drachasor]

Hmm, do you know the DM well? Are you friends? Close?

Seems like he's setup a no-win scenario. If you lose, you remake your character. If you win, he has a great reason why you have to remake your character. The end result of this might be hoping that you just leave the game.

The whole thing seems potentially extremely passive-aggressive and unfriendly to me.

Or it is possible your GM just isn't thinking clearly.

[erikun]

This is pretty absurd. Pretty much any of the Balor's abilities should rightfully take your character out, including the 100 damage Death Throws. If you do manage to beat this thing, it would be due to gross DM negligence than much of anything to say about the character.

I don't even know where we would start. Insanity at-will at a range of 300 feet is not something I know how to stop right off hand, outside of forcing Concentration checks that you most certainly will not be able to do.

[FelixG]

This pretty much sums it up.

http://static5.businessinsider.com/image/3cb9b914bc561c4948236100/ackbar-trap.jpg


Your GM is just looking for a reason to ban the character.

[Killer Angel]

I'm Lvl 11 Druid and my dm thinks i'm disbalancing the game
I have greenbound summoning

Leaving aside the considerations already expressed, your DM may be right...

[BenInHB]

It's a Trap!!

The DM is trying to make you prove how broken your character is yourself.

[LaughingRogue]

greenbound summoning --- I something I flat out ban in every game I run --- I cannot see how it could possibly be involved in a balanced game unless it's ridiculously high tier.

EDIT::: oh and btw it's a trap.

[TroubleBrewing]

Instead of fighting something way outside your CR, why not just have a chat with your DM and agree to tone down the Druid-flavored crazy? Start casting more buffs, don't use Greenbound on every critter you summon, etc. Keep the hardcore ultimate power stuff for emergencies, but otherwise, try and be less of an unstoppable killing machine that summons other unstoppable killing machines err, I mean less of an awesome dude who is a bear, rides a bear, and summons bears made out of TREES wait, no, I meant less of a Druid.

[DeAnno]

Just to illustrate how hard this is to do, I tried to see how practical it was with a Mailman-style build.

Silverbrow Human Sorc 6/War Mage 5
You need the Fast Metamagic Substitution feature instead of a familiar, and also a flaw

Flaw)Eschew Materials
1)Any True Dragonmark
H)Weapon Focus (Ranged Touch)
3)Combat Casting
6)Mark of the Dauntless
7W)Empower Spell
9)Practical Empower
9W)Free Meta Feat

Empowered Force Orb is a 5th level spell that deals 1.5*(10d6+30) = 97.5, with a Ranged Touch Attack of 6 + Dex mod.

You must beat the Balor in initiative without using any actions. It has +11 to init so this may take some doing, and its probably easier to just surprise it somehow (with a range of 210 feet this will not be all that difficult hopefully). Once you have done so you must cast Empowered Force Orb and hit it through its Flat Touch AC of 9 (So don't roll a 1). Then before your turn ends, Celerity and use Fast metamagic to do it again as a Standard Action. After your turn ends (with your newly come back immediate action), Celerity again and do it again. You'll deal an average of 292.5 damage vs the Balor's hp of 290.

So if you can beat it in initiative or surprise it somehow, you have about a 45% chance of killing it (counting in chance of missed attacks and low damage). This required a Flaw, 2 campaign settings, and probably about a dozen books.

Seriously, killing a Balor at level 11 with no major cheese like Pun-Pun or invocation candles or such isn't easy. I sort of doubt you could do it with a vanilla summoning Druid with your feats/build already locked in. If this is a trap your DM didn't set it very well.

[Saintheart]

Go out in style. First, Wall of Sand the balor to interfere with its casting, line of sight, and line of effect. Then quicken your greenbound summoning, and hit it with Wall of Thorns as well. Then hit it with Flame Strike. Fell Drained. :smallsmile:

[Killer Angel]

Then hit it with Flame Strike.

That's not exactly optimal... :smallamused:

[Elboxo]

Don't try kill it, sell your soul to it for powers :D

[lianightdemon]

No turn into your fastest form get to a forest and tree stride away. Then get some ways to hide yourself from it. This is a trap don't fight. If you win you will loose your character. And if you lose you will lose your character. Set up a word of recall to a far away location that you find safe. Your a druid, survival is your calling card survive by fleeing these insane odds.

If the GM persists talk to him oog about it and don't try and play your druid all broken like, work with the party and win as a team. (against other not so insane stuff)

[Balor01]

Balor just teleports out, summons a buddy and they blasphemise druid into oblivion. Druid paralyzed, weakened, dazed every turn, no save. Pne balor is blasphemizing, the other is hacking away.

I dont see balor losing, not without dimensional anchor on druids side.

[darksolitaire]

This is fascinating and flavorful challenge. The correct answer?

The only way to win is not to fight.
If you fight and you lose, you will die.
If you fight and you win, you'll prove you're too powerfull.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'm in agreement with most of the posters here, even Admiral Akbar is unable to appropriately state just how big a trap this is.

It's got Teleport, which means it is immune to most forms of battlefield control you currently possess. Annoying summoned minions are teleported around, entangles are teleported out of... you get the idea.

You aren't going to crack his SR. You aren't likely to crack his AC (35). The DC's for it's abilities are so high that you aren't going to make the saves.

Go back and tell him that if he really wants the character out of the game, just pull the character and be done with it, since he's the GM, and be done with this farce that will be over in the first round with a dead, or worse, druid.

[CTrees]

Tell him you'll remake the druid as core-only. After all, everyone knows core is balanced; it's all the splats that unbalance the game.

If he thinks this is a good idea, RUN.

Also, this is a trap, etc. Though if you can get ahold of some of that dust of sneezing and choking...

[TroubleBrewing]

Tell him you'll remake the druid as core-only. After all, everyone knows core is balanced; it's all the splats that unbalance the game.

If he thinks this is a good idea, RUN. take full advantage and turn his obvious trap right around on him.

Also, this is a trap, etc. Though if you can get ahold of some of that dust of sneezing and choking...

Fixed that for you. That's what bad GMs who use in-game solutions to out-of-game problems get. (fully aware of the double standard)

[NOhara24]

As everyone was saying - This is a trap.

When the battle starts, note how the DM is actually playing the Balor itself.

Did you somehow beat it on initiative? Are its attacks always missing you? Does its strategy as a whole just suck? If so, your DM is trying to prove a point. Have your druid sit down and prepare afternoon tea. Ask the Balor if he wishes to join.

OR...

Is the Balor just getting silly rolls? I'm expecting it to beat you on initiative, but have several of it's attacks crit? Is it really going for the throat as far as strategy goes? If so, just murder it as best you can. Hope for sick rolls.

It's a lose/lose scenario. The obvious solution being Fire your DM

[HappyBlanket]

Okay I think we've made it sufficiently clear that this is, in fact, a trap. Since apparently it wasn't glaringly obvious and therefore needed to be said two dozen times over.

OP, mind if I ask what the rest of your party is composed of? Because chances are, your DM is right about you unbalancing the game, and that he's already decided that to be true. Whether you beat the Balor or not is irrelevant; your only options are to either A) play to the power level of the of your party, or B) leave the group for one with a higher base "tier," as it were. Failing to do that simply means that the DM stops being passive and starts saying what he wants to say; which will again pose those two options.

So, actually, your options at the moment aren't really the aforementioned. Your options are either 1) Pick either A/B, or 2) let the DM pick either A/B.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

How can destroying the Balor be a bad idea when OPs GM himself said that the OP will keep his charcter if he wins? :smallconfused:

[2xMachina]

the OP will keep his charcter if he wins? :smallconfused:

LIES! (Or the highly probability of it)

[Anarchy_Kanya]

LIES! (Or the highly probability of it)
So what? He said what he said. No calling that back. If I was the OP I would do whatever it takes to humiliate him by killing the Balor and then, when he would cry "Too overpowered!" I would shout "I don't give a s**t, I won! The Druid STAYS!" Seriously, I wouldn't care what he says. You DON'T lie to Anarchy_Kanya! :smallfurious:

[Killer Angel]

Okay I think we've made it sufficiently clear that this is, in fact, a trap.

Apparently, not. :smalltongue: :


How can destroying the Balor be a bad idea when OPs GM himself said that the OP will keep his charcter if he wins? :smallconfused:

"I think your character is overpowered and shouldn't be played. But you can prove I'm wrong, if you kill this monster that should be far stronger than you". Yeah.


So what? He said what he said. No calling that back.
The best thing I can think of, is that he won't "lose" the character, but it will became a NPC.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So what? He said what he said. No calling that back.Also nothing that requires him to honor it, either. But, if you insist...

Fine. The GM ends the campaign at that point. You have your character, and no game to play it in.

Believe me, there's more than one way a GM has of making your character go away, without even resorting to "Rocks fall, you die".

[Lonely Tylenol]

How can destroying the Balor be a bad idea when OPs GM himself said that the OP will keep his charcter if he wins? :smallconfused:

The GM was LYING.

The sequence of events goes something like this:
1) GM accuses Druid of being too overpowered.
2) GM convinces Druid player to fight Balor in single combat; as incentive, tells Druid player they can keep the character if they win.
3) Druid wins
3.a) GM points finger at Druid player, yells "AHA!", and states that the fact that a Druid can defeat a character with twice as many Hit Dice (and more than four times as much health, plus DR, SR, inherent resistances/immunities, and a plethora of effects) means it must be broken, and thus needs banning; GM feels clever for slighting the Druid player.
OR
4) GM wins
4.a) GM points finger at Druid player, yells "AHA!" (yes, this part is critical to the flowchart), and states that the Druid is killed, and for reasons unexplained the Powers That Be won't bring it back, ever; GM feels clever for slighting the Druid player.

As for actual methods for defeating a Balor, I have none, since as far as I know, Druids can't cast Orb of Force, which would be my only workaround to DR 15/cold iron and good, SR 28, immunity to electricity, fire, and poison, and resistance 10 to acid and cold in a mano e mano fight.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

At that point the GM would prove to me what a jerk he is and I would be better of not playing with him anymore. :smallannoyed:

And yeah, I noticed that it's either a trap or the GM in question is slightly retarded. :smallannoyed: Why should I care? "Herp derp. Do what I demand of you and you can keep the character." If I will do it then I expect the GM to not be a total asshat.

[ufis]

You DON'T lie to Anarchy_Kanya! :smallfurious:

You sound like the kind of player I'd love to play with.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

You sound like the kind of player I'd love to play with.
You wouldn't want to. :smallwink:

Okay, more on the OP.
I would do it like that: Agree. Proceed to decimate the Balor.
You win - you KEEP the character. Whatever happens next isn't your concern. If the GM tricks you, you're better of without him.
You lose - no biggie, you would tone down the character anyway, now you have the chance to do it.

[Tyndmyr]

Look, I've done it in E6(with a lot of feats)....but huge amounts of cheese were involved.

A stock druid...unlikely. Especially if you don't happen to be evil, have cheesed UMD and wands of Wings of Cover, and other similar things.

Nah, get obliterated while giving it your best shot with SR-No stuff, and point out that obviously, any vaguely balanced character WOULD get obliterated.

[HappyBlanket]

Apparently, not. :smalltongue:
I can't comment on that without breaking a social rule. Alas, I must refrain.

In all honesty, I'm kinda expecting the other party members to be a Warmage, a Scout, and a Barbarian. Or something to that effect. Say what you like about the DM's indirectness that apparently makes him the worst DM ever, but it doesn't change the fact that the OP is playing a Druid with Natural Spell and Greenbound Summoning.

So unless the other members of the party are an Archivist, a Wizard, and an Artificer, I fail to see what's so wrong about believing said Druid to be unbalanced.

edit: Also; technically you don't need to kill the Balor. If you can get around it's teleportation / divination, the terms only require that you survive.

[Killer Angel]

I would do it like that: Agree. Proceed to decimate the Balor.

You're saying it as it were an easy thing to do. I doubt it's possible, with no chance to modify the chassis of the character, to face this specific task.


Nah, get obliterated while giving it your best shot with SR-No stuff, and point out that obviously, any vaguely balanced character WOULD get obliterated.

Well, it's a route I wouldn't take ('specially 'cause that druid is overpowered), but obviously the OP can trick the DM at the same game. Lose the battle, and lose it badly. Then say: "You though that my character was overpowered and you obliterated it. Are you happy? Maybe the final meaning of this demonstration is that I wasn't so broken?".


Say what you like about the DM's indirectness that apparently makes him the worst DM ever, but it doesn't change the fact that the OP is playing a Druid with Natural Spell and Greenbound Summoning.


I totally agree. Tha main DM's fault was to concede a thing as greenbound summoning. I can see not be aware of druid's strenght, but that feat screams "broken" on every level.

[Balor01]

{{scrubbed}}

[Essence_of_War]

My advice, as per almost everyone else, it is a freaking trap.

Offer to convert the character to a wildshape ranger, shake hands, make up, everyyone continue the campaign happy :smallbiggrin:

[ShriekingDrake]

This situation reminds me of the Babylon 5 episode "A Day in the Strife (http://www.tv.com/babylon-5/a-day-in-the-strife/episode/25181/recap.html)". An Alien probe comes to test a civilization's knowledge, asking a bunch of highly technical questions only an advanced civilization can answer. Answer correctly, and the probe will help your civilization further by giving you lots of additional technology, cures to all known diseases, etc. Answer incorrectly, and the probe will kill you. You are able to figure out the answers in time, however...
You don't want to actually transmit the answers! The probe is lying. It's acually looking to kill advanced civilizations that might be a threat to it. It won't kill you if you aren't able to prove yourself. Instead it will kill you if you are able to demonstrate power. Hence, your Druid should indeed intentionally let the Balor kill you, and you'll be able to keep your character.

It reminds me of the antiquated test for witchcraft. Submerge her in water. If she drowns she was not a witch. If she survives, she's a witch . . . burn her at the stake.

[HappyBlanket]

It reminds me of the antiquated test for witchcraft. Submerge her in water. If she drowns she was not a witch. If she survives, she's a witch . . . burn her at the stake.

Except the accusation here (that the OP's character is overpowered) is accurate. So we have a witch, that we know is a witch. The only error here is bothering with the submerging at all (this absurd "test") instead of going directly to the stake (directly telling the OP to tone it down).


Offer to convert the character to a wildshape ranger, shake hands, make up, everyyone continue the campaign happy :smallbiggrin:

Seconded. Reconsider keeping Greenbound as well.

[ShriekingDrake]

Except the accusation here (that the OP's character is overpowered) is accurate. So we have a witch, that we know is a witch. The only error here is bothering with the submerging at all (this absurd "test") instead of going directly to the stake (directly telling the OP to tone it down).

I always know those druidy types were witches.

[The Glyphstone]

Except the accusation here (that the OP's character is overpowered) is accurate. So we have a witch, that we know is a witch. The only error here is bothering with the submerging at all (this absurd "test") instead of going directly to the stake (directly telling the OP to tone it down).

You're right! And since he's level 11, he can turn people into a newt! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm)

[Eric Tolle]

Well in this case, you'll have to take the Amber DRPG approach to winning this contest. Bear in mind, this is a contest against the DM, who is Benedict to your Corwin. So you have to take special measures. For example:

Agree to the contest, on the condition that you'll only do it once, and anyone who leaves the table forfeits the game.

Does the GM have a song he absolutely hates? Insist on playing it at high volume. The "Badger badger badger" song works well too.

Find out what animal the gm is terrified of, and release them on the table.

Hire a couple of dancers from the local "talent agency" to act as "independant referees". Have them stand behind you, and do a strip tease as play begins.

Bribe his girlfriend to text him with the message "The pregnancy test is positive, but I don't think it's yours".

Bribe his parents to call him with an urgent message from the hospital.

Have a confederate cut the power, followed by screams or gunshots.

A confederate running down the street slapping every parked car to set off the alarms.

A call from a pay booth, using a voice distorter: "I know what you did. You cannot hide. You will pay!"

Hire the most intimidating gang-banger you can find to pound on the door and demand the money the DM owes.

I am simply not allowed to suggest Syrup of Epicac. Do not consider how it may assist your cause.

So, if you remember that you're actually fighting the DM, not the game monster, these and other techniques should give you a fighting chance.

[Lunarix]

You're right! And since he's level 11, he can turn people into a newt! (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm)

I got better. :smallbiggrin:

[The Glyphstone]

Well in this case, you'll have to take the Amber DRPG approach to winning this contest. Bear in mind, this is a contest against the DM, who is Benedict to your Corwin. So you have to take special measures. For example:

Agree to the contest, on the condition that you'll only do it once, and anyone who leaves the table forfeits the game.

Does the GM have a song he absolutely hates? Insist on playing it at high volume. The "Badger badger badger" song works well too.

Find out what animal the gm is terrified of, and release them on the table.

Hire a couple of dancers from the local "talent agency" to act as "independant referees". Have them stand behind you, and do a strip tease as play begins.

Bribe his girlfriend to text him with the message "The pregnancy test is positive, but I don't think it's yours".

Bribe his parents to call him with an urgent message from the hospital.

Have a confederate cut the power, followed by screams or gunshots.

A confederate running down the street slapping every parked car to set off the alarms.

A call from a pay booth, using a voice distorter: "I know what you did. You cannot hide. You will pay!"

Hire the most intimidating gang-banger you can find to pound on the door and demand the money the DM owes.

I am simply not allowed to suggest Syrup of Epicac. Do not consider how it may assist your cause.

So, if you remember that you're actually fighting the DM, not the game monster, these and other techniques should give you a fighting chance.

I cannot condone this, but I want photos, or video footage.

[Drachasor]

The GM was LYING.

The sequence of events goes something like this:
1) GM accuses Druid of being too overpowered.
2) GM convinces Druid player to fight Balor in single combat; as incentive, tells Druid player they can keep the character if they win.
3) Druid wins
3.a) GM points finger at Druid player, yells "AHA!", and states that the fact that a Druid can defeat a character with twice as many Hit Dice (and more than four times as much health, plus DR, SR, inherent resistances/immunities, and a plethora of effects) means it must be broken, and thus needs banning; GM feels clever for slighting the Druid player.
OR
4) GM wins
4.a) GM points finger at Druid player, yells "AHA!" (yes, this part is critical to the flowchart), and states that the Druid is killed, and for reasons unexplained the Powers That Be won't bring it back, ever; GM feels clever for slighting the Druid player.

As for actual methods for defeating a Balor, I have none, since as far as I know, Druids can't cast Orb of Force, which would be my only workaround to DR 15/cold iron and good, SR 28, immunity to electricity, fire, and poison, and resistance 10 to acid and cold in a mano e mano fight.

Further, any players on the fence will probably side with the DM.

To the OP: What's the rest of the party like? The way to go here is to figure out a way to tone down the druid that makes everyone happy (ideally). Then you propose that to the DM. The druid gives the most powerful with the least amount of optimization work of all the classes in the game (e.g. unlike the wizard or cleric, there are really no traps to fall into that make you lower in power, so long as you don't play like an idiot once in the game).

If the DM insists on this stupid contest no matter what, then he's a bad DM. If he agrees to reasonable changes and forgetting about the fight then he's not a bad DM, just a DM who had a really stupid idea.

[Randomguy]

A six step plan to beating the Balor:

1. Retrain one of your feats for leadership.
2. Minmax your leadership score as high as you can so you can get a lvl 9 minimum cleric cohort.
3. Make sure the cleric has a very high dex and the improved initiative feat, and plane shift prepared.
4.Tell the Balor you're on your way to Celestia, or any other good aligned plane.
5. Have your cleric plane shift to that plane.
6. Have fun watching the Balor get his ass kicked by Solars.

[Killer Angel]

A six step plan to beating the Balor:

1. Retrain one of your feats for leadership.
2. Minmax your leadership score as high as you can so you can get a lvl 9 minimum cleric cohort.
3. Make sure the cleric has a very high dex and the improved initiative feat, and plane shift prepared.
4.Tell the Balor you're on your way to Celestia, or any other good aligned plane.
5. Have your cleric plane shift to that plane.
6. Have fun watching the Balor get his ass kicked by Solars.

Not only this is not an available solution, but, at this point (shortcuts and letting others do the work), it's shorter and simpler to buy an appropriate Candle...

[LordBlades]

greenbound summoning --- I something I flat out ban in every game I run --- I cannot see how it could possibly be involved in a balanced game unless it's ridiculously high tier.



Greenbound as intender by it's author (+2 metamagic) is a decent feat (good but not overpowering). Greenbound as written is somewhat weird balance-wise: at a very low level it's rather overpowering (stuff with DR 10/magic and Wall of Thorns at level 1 is a bit too powerful) but at level 9 and beyond is more of a hindrance than an asset (it's not optional, all your summoned animals become plants forever, and therefore ineligible for animal Growth; and animal+Animal Growth>animal+Greenbound template). At some point between these 2 extremes it should be balanced.

[Killer Angel]

Greenbound as intender by it's author (+2 metamagic) is a decent feat (good but not overpowering). Greenbound as written is somewhat weird balance-wise: at a very low level it's rather overpowering (stuff with DR 10/magic and Wall of Thorns at level 1 is a bit too powerful) but at level 9 and beyond is more of a hindrance than an asset (it's not optional, all your summoned animals become plants forever, and therefore ineligible for animal Growth; and animal+Animal Growth>animal+Greenbound template). At some point between these 2 extremes it should be balanced.

:smallconfused:
Are you sure?
Leaving aside the already mentioned DR and that the plant type gives the critters things as immunity to crits and mind affecting effects, if I'm not wrong, the summoned creature gains also many additional benefits: improved NA, Resistance to electricity and cold, tremorsense, improvements to str, dex and con, bonuses to grapple...
IMO, it's by far superior to "animal growth".

[ShneekeyTheLost]

:smallconfused:
Are you sure?
Leaving aside the already mentioned DR and that the plant type gives the critters things as immunity to crits and mind affecting effects, if I'm not wrong, the summoned creature gains also many additional benefits: improved NA, Resistance to electricity and cold, tremorsense, improvements to str, dex and con, bonuses to grapple...
IMO, it's by far superior to "animal growth".

Try reading the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animalGrowth.htm) again.

Increase in size category, massive Str boost, gives it SIGNIFICANTLY higher damage output. It gets DR, more Natural Armor, and +4 to all saves, which makes it harder to affect by anything.

So yes, much better than Greenbound.

[Killer Angel]

Try reading the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/animalGrowth.htm) again.

So yes, much better than Greenbound.

Point taken.
But still, it's a 5th lev. spell and, 'specially for a mid lev. druid, you won't have so many to spare.
You have to summon the animal (and, by the way, not all the summoned creatures will be animal. No bonuses for your elemental), then casts AG (waste of a combat round), while Greenbound always applies and you save a spell slot and a round.

[LordBlades]

Point taken.
But still, it's a 5th lev. spell and, 'specially for a mid lev. druid, you won't have so many to spare.
You have to summon the animal (and, by the way, not all the summoned creatures will be animal. No bonuses for your elemental), then casts AG (waste of a combat round), while Greenbound always applies and you save a spell slot and a round.

Well, greenbound doesn't apply to elementals either.

Also, my point was that having Greenbound completely removes the ability of using Animal Growth on any summoned creatures ever, therefore being a nerf to your summoning ability(and you usually playing a summoner if you're taking summoning feats).

Also, a round in which you cast a very powerful buff on your animal companion and summoned creatures is by no means wasted.

Third, at that level you should already have a Belt of Battle. So you can do it all in the same round.

And fourth, for mid to high level play, Rashemi Elemental summoning is already better (IMHO at least) than Greenbound)

[Killer Angel]

Well, greenbound doesn't apply to elementals either.


Ah, then I was remembering the feat incorrectly. My bad.


Also, a round in which you cast a very powerful buff on your animal companion and summoned creatures is by no means wasted.


"wasted" 'cause you're buffing, and not tearing apart the enemies in your bear form, side by side with an already greenbuffed creature. But good point 'bout buffing both the summoned creature and the companion.

Anyway, yes, I concede that at higher levels it's not better.



Third, at that level you should already have a Belt of Battle. So you can do it all in the same round.


A related question. Given as granted wilding clasp, for a druid is better a Belt of battle or a Monk's belt?

[LordBlades]

A related question. Given as granted wilding clasp, for a druid is better a Belt of battle or a Monk's belt?

I'd go with Belt of Battle always. Extra actions (especially on a tier 1 spellcaster) are way better than some extra AC (of which you can still get some by wearing armor). You can always make a Monk's Belt on a different slot though, but if I had to choose only one, it's Belt of Battle.

[CTrees]

Well, greenbound doesn't apply to elementals either.

It'd be kinda hilarious if it did, though - greenbund fire elemental? Try figuring that one out without the help of Pokemon :smallbiggrin:

[Killer Angel]

Extra actions (especially on a tier 1 spellcaster) are way better than some extra AC (of which you can still get some by wearing armor).

Armors don't usually give touch AC, but yeah, the point stands.


It'd be kinda hilarious if it did, though - greenbund fire elemental?

No more hilarious than flying T-rex... :smalltongue:
If it can kill you, it's not funny. :smallwink:

[Callista]

I suggest you ask if you can rebuild your character to fix the balance problem. That way you'll be able to keep it and not have to do the balor fight.

[dextercorvia]

Just offer to play the Balor instead, since clearly, he believes it to be balanced for this level. :smallcool:

[HunterOfJello]

1. Drop a Quall's Feather Token:Tree on the ground

2. Transport via Plants to the druid grove that contains the most powerful druids that you know of.

3. Alert them that the natural order of things has been disrupted and that there's a Balor demon after you because he believes their sacred practice of communing with nature has become too powerful and must be destroyed.

[Zaq]

It'd be kinda hilarious if it did, though - greenbund fire elemental? Try figuring that one out without the help of Pokemon :smallbiggrin:

Let's go a little more obscure, then!

http://www.bluefurok.com/NDimages/cald_flame_rudwot.jpg

(Here's (http://www.bluefurok.com/NDimages/naroom_flame_rudwot.jpg) the other version.)

[Talya]

So, if it's somewhat unbalancing, you lose it, but if it's even stronger than a balor you keep it? That's backwards, IMO.

Yeah, this strikes me as testing for a witch by drowning. I'm not entirely sure you WANT to win this fight. But losing isn't a great alternative either.