Yet another Polymorph fix

[ILM]

So far I've been using the PF version and I'm not completely happy with it. I thought of something this morning but may be either taking things a bit far, or not fixing the issue at all. Need some input! :smalltongue:

Here's the idea: Each form is its own spell. So you'd have Polymorph (Otter), Polymorph (Solar), Polymorph (Choker), and they'd be 3 separate spells. Wizards would have to prepare the right one in the morning, Sorcs would be, well, kind of getting the shaft tbh.

To streamline things a bit, I'm thinking that Alter Self, Polymorph, PAO and Shapechange are merged into one new Polymorph spell of variable level. Basically, a level X Polymorph spell lets you change into a X*2 HD creature (option: maybe HD or CR, whichever is the highest? So that low-HD/high-CR creatures would still be unavailable), therefore capping at 18 max HD (or HD/CR). Also, to further streamline things, you swap your entire stat block, along with all abilities, for the monsters'. Basically you use its stat block instead of yours, instead of that "you get (Ex) but not (Su)" stuff that tends to confuse newer players. Duration rounds/CL, casting time 1 standard action (possibly 1 round).

Does that sound extremely stupid to you?

[DeAnno]

It definitely doesn't sound very compelling to me, but that might be a good thing. Also sounds breakable by Polymorphing dumb stuff like Efreeti or whatever and using the SLAs/casting.

[ILM]

Well not too compelling is kind of the point. It's widely known that the polymorph line is one of 3.5's more egregious problems. A caster can pretty much prepare the spells in all his slots and win the game. They need some serious toning down, I just don't want to go overboard either. Maybe that's a completely stupid way to go about it.

You're right in that some forms remain universally useful; Efreeti with their 3/day Wishes (although you can't use them yourself, but it's easy enough to go around that), Chokers, etc. Hm. Maybe I should just blanket-ban extraplanar creatures and call it a day.

[DeAnno]

In the interests of changing the rules as little as possible, I think the best fix to Polymorph short of axing it entirely is just to limit assumed forms more stringently. Some possibilities are to further restrict the allowed type list (in an extreme case, just animals and humanoids), or to drastically lower the assumed form HD limit (CL/2 instead of CL, maxed at 10 HD for CL 20). Shapechange could be limited similarly, to the tune of how horrible you think it is.

Though it is more broken than most buffs, its just another broken buff in a game of big precarious stacks of broken buffs. Toning it down might be better than changing it completely.

As for Polymorph Any Object, it's high enough level that Greater Dispel Magic and Disjunction are bouncing around freely and even a duration of Permanent is a laughably short term measure.

[ILM]

Though it is more broken than most buffs, its just another broken buff in a game of big precarious stacks of broken buffs. Toning it down might be better than changing it completely.
I don't mind a player using 12 of his 20 spells per day buffing himself to the stratosphere, especially when as you say a Greater Dispel could be right around the corner. Polymorph's issues are, IMO: the handful of forms that offer stupidly powerful benefits (and all of which I can think of happen to be Outsiders), and the versatility gained from choosing which form you want on the fly. Preparing a Polymorph or two per day is never a bad idea because it'll always come in handy.

[Jack_Simth]

Does that sound extremely stupid to you?
Actually, no. Making each form a separate spell was WotC's solution in late 3.5 (Dragonshape, Trollshape, et cetera), and is one of the three classifications of solutions I'm aware of that have a chance of working. The three classifications are as follows:

Limited List: There is a fixed list of forms that Polymorph (and similar spells) can grant - might be as low as one per spell, might be more. This can be balanced in the same manner as Summon Monster / Summon Undead / Summon Nature's Ally are - based on the specific list available.

Variant Summoning: It's not you with a monster's abilities tacked on top. It's the monster (minus problematic abilities - anything that would cost XP, mostly, but also instant or permanent nondamaging effects in general) that you control remotely (with some HP translation - any damage it took, you take when you return). So when you turn the Rogue-9 into a 9-headed Hydra, he's not getting sneak attack on each of those nine attacks when flanking, he's getting hydra bite damage. He's not attacking at his own BAB, he's using the stat block straight out of the monster manual. Those long-duration buff spells you cast on him earlier in the day are suppressed for the duration. And so on. This can be balanced around the available CR, in theory (do note that WotC toyed with this one, too - check out the Planar Exchange line in Spell Compendium).

Mostly Illusion: You don't turn the rogue into a Hydra. You make the rogue *look like* a hydra, and apply a small number of buffs from a list to him (which might be, oh, a size increase, and two secondary natural attacks for 1d6 damage each). The spell can then be balanced around the specific list and number of buffs available in the spell (do note that WotC toyed with this one, too - check out the Bite of the _____________ line in Spell Compendium).

Note that these are not necessarily incompatible - there's nothing stopping a merging of the first two, for instance.

[Larpus]

I guess it greatly depends on the adventure style and what you face, since that is one big kick in them nuts.

I agree that magic is too powerful as it stands, but that train of thought is "if melee can't have nice things, magic can't have either", while class balance might be ok from that, party vs. world will not, since that CR 17 monster actually expected someone to polymorph into something big and punch it in the face, but now the wizard guy only had tigershape and can only scratch its ankles...ouch.

Never forget that Sorcs and Wizzies pretty much only can do magic, so making it too weak makes them too weak, and I don't think that should be what happens, I believe that melee people need to be stronger instead, and this does nothing to help that.

A solution I'd give is to change the polymorph spells' range from personal to creature touched will/fort negates (whichever is higher). This technically makes them more powerful since now they have even more versatility, but it also makes it a considerably better idea to use such spells on the fighter guy than on themselves (if you're using the PF version that they buff your stats, not replace), so you actually get what you wanted, the magic guy is not stepping on the fighter guy's toes and the fighter guy is doing what he is there to do: punch things in the face.

Also, it might be a better solution to ask for a decently challenging Knowledge check to transform properly, fail and you turn into something else randomly. The check must be such that a caster of the minimum level to cast the spell must have a rather hard time to pass it, but one that is 2 or 4 levels above can do it almost 100% of the time.

But again, depends on the situations, what you fight, the party, etc.

[NecroRick]

You're right in that some forms remain universally useful; Efreeti with their 3/day Wishes (although you can't use them yourself, but it's easy enough to go around that), Chokers, etc. Hm. Maybe I should just blanket-ban extraplanar creatures and call it a day.

Polymorph _as written_ includes:

(1) a hit dice limit (15 or CL whichever is less)
(2) a ban on outsiders*
(3) a ban on special abilities

Even if you could turn into an Efreeti**, the only ability you get is Heat. You get none of the SLAs.

* (like Alter Self) unless your starting type was outsider <- if you want to fix it, here's the low hanging fruit
** e.g. if you are naturally an outsider

The only special abilities you get are (Ex) attacks. nothing else.

Take for instance a Beholder, if you polymorph into one you cannot fly, and you don't get the benefit of the all around vision. (those are (Ex) abilities, but not attacks)

Similarly, if you polymorph into a small dragon (keeping in mind the HD limit) then you don't get any improved senses, breathing water, climbing ice etc, since those are all (Ex) abilities, but not listed in the special attacks section of the monster.

[NecroRick]

(minus problematic abilities - anything that would cost XP, mostly, but also instant or permanent nondamaging effects in general)


... which, by RAW you very explicitly don't get, certainly not if its an SLA, and if in some murky corner of a splatbook you find one that's not an SLA or SP I'd suspect a typo, and/or brain damage on the writter's part as the root cause.

I'd suggest fixing any such slip ups, but then people would scream OBERONI!!! at me. But they probably will anyway, any time I suggest that wizards should _actually stick to the rules like everyone else_ people go ape****.

[ILM]

Polymorph _as written_ includes:

(1) a hit dice limit (15 or CL whichever is less)
(2) a ban on outsiders*
(3) a ban on special abilities
Well I was really talking about the whole Polymorph line. Shapechange lifts all these restrictions; however you do have a point, some abuse isn't possible with just Polymorph, so maybe I could just tone it down to that level.


@Jack Smith: you know I'd never actually noticed that before, but there are a bunch of Shape of the ___, Form of the ___, and Bite of the ___. I'm starting to wonder if I couldn't just ban the entire Polymorph line and still have decent shapechanging spells in the game... Maybe I'll nerf Polymorph to the abyss just so it remains in game for the purposes of prerequisites and what-not, but use the later Shape/Form/Bite spells as the main form-altering stuff. Hmm. I'll need to make a list of all the stuff available first then, I guess. :smallsmile:

[CTrees]

No one's mentioned it yet (likely because it's unworkable), but for completeness: you could require the caster to pass a knowledge check to have access to a given form. Said knowledge check could plausibly be harder than normal, as you need more detailed knowledge to completely replicate it.

Obviously and unfortunately, while this would work for WotC's assumed generic, badly optimized wizard fairly well, it would be easy to push one's bonus to that check into the stratosphere, even with taking ten being disallowed, trivializing the change. Also, "oh, I failed? Well, let's see how I roll on this exact creature, but with this +0LA template. No again? It's okay, I've got 40 more I can try-I'll pass at some point."

Fortitude save vs. Being stuck in that form and from there on immune to polymorph effects could be kinda fun and flavorful, but then you'd get casters Shapechanging into some specific, powerful and entirely beneficial form and choosing to fail the save (and repeating the process on the entire party), for massive benefit, and it would make the spell even more broken.

I'm okay with PF's fix. I think it works pretty well, hitting a balance somewhere around usable, but well away from broken good and broken bad.

[Jack_Simth]

... which, by RAW you very explicitly don't get, certainly not if its an SLA, and if in some murky corner of a splatbook you find one that's not an SLA or SP I'd suspect a typo, and/or brain damage on the writter's part as the root cause.
Like the Mary Sue that is the Zodar in Fiend Folio, yes. It gets a supernatural Wish 1/year, and has an ability that reads:
Invulnerability(Ex): A Zodar is impervious to all attacks except those from bludgeoning weapons, and the enhancement bonus (if any) of such a weapon is disregarded when determining the results of an attack.

Oh yes, and it's a Mindless construct that's noted as occasionally speaking (and thus can use verbal components), has only 16 hit dice, and is called out as fighting with bare hands or weapons, and is pictured as having human-like fingers (and thus, can cast spells with somatic components). All in all, it makes a wonderful Shapechange form.

[Gnaeus]

So far I've been using the PF version and I'm not completely happy with it. I thought of something this morning but may be either taking things a bit far, or not fixing the issue at all. Need some input! :smalltongue:

Here's the idea: Each form is its own spell. So you'd have Polymorph (Otter), Polymorph (Solar), Polymorph (Choker), and they'd be 3 separate spells. Wizards would have to prepare the right one in the morning, Sorcs would be, well, kind of getting the shaft tbh.

Does that sound extremely stupid to you?

It does vary by playstyle and optimization level, but when I hear "polymorph nerf" I don't think "Oh that poor wizard!", I think "Oh that poor fighter!". I use it at least 3 times on the fighter for every time I use it on myself, typically to give him a fighting chance to harm the enemy, fly to the enemy, trip the enemy, or (using elemental subtypes) not be blasted by the enemy's energy damage. In my mind, when you nerf polymorph through the floor, you are simply encouraging the wizard to be LESS of a team player, by making his teammate buffing options less effective than the I win buttons on his spell list.



@Jack Smith: you know I'd never actually noticed that before, but there are a bunch of Shape of the ___, Form of the ___, and Bite of the ___. I'm starting to wonder if I couldn't just ban the entire Polymorph line and still have decent shapechanging spells in the game... Maybe I'll nerf Polymorph to the abyss just so it remains in game for the purposes of prerequisites and what-not, but use the later Shape/Form/Bite spells as the main form-altering stuff. Hmm. I'll need to make a list of all the stuff available first then, I guess. :smallsmile:

The bite of the ____ line is personal only. Sorry, Mr. Fighter. The shape/form spells are also generally personal only, and even worse, you gain little/no benefit from casting it on your melee guy instead of on yourself. And with a few exceptions, even if you use a trick to allow them to be cast on others, they don't do what your muggle wants them to do, which is to give a high strength form with reach, natural armor and good movement to allow them to do their job in a mid-op environment.