LA for the Pathfinder Vampire

[Show]

Well, it's happened. One of my players wants to be a pathfinder vampire (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/vampire). So almost immediately, I ran into problems. No listed LA, different stats than in 3.5, and a new section of interesting weaknesses.

My mind immediately jumps to 3.5's +8 LA, but I've always considered that a bit high. My next thought is to convert the CR to +2, but that's really low, even in a game planned to be somewhere around level 6.

The player who wants to play a vampire believes that a low or nonexistant LA would be justified by the weaknesses vampires suffer, but I'm worried that that would quickly unbalance the game.

So I need your help! What LA do you think would be appropriate? Is my player right about the weaknesses balancing the strengths?

Overall, I'm seeing three options:
1) LA 2-4: Playable, but the player would be hit hard by having about half as many hit dice as the other players. However, stat mods, DR, etc may unbalance the game.
2) LA 6-8: The player cannot play a vampire in such a low level game in order to preserve game balance.
3) Create a new vampire template, trying to keep it balanced with a CR 2-3 while keeping the flavor.

Thanks in advance!

[Andreaz]

Pathfinder's approach to LA is that CR = LA

[Show]

Yeah, that's where I got the +2 from. But is that a bit... overpowered?

[Krazzman]

For our round, we had an tiefling. Which means +0 LA just did fine.

I think you will run best with creating a new Template.

[Starbuck_II]

Yeah, that's where I got the +2 from. But is that a bit... overpowered?

Depends on LV of campaign.
At meduim-high levels +2 is acceptable as the strengths are not as strong. (remember he is behind in levels)

Only at low levels is +2 questionable. You could do a savage species thing:
+2 LA (but he gets only 1/2 the benefits of race: 1/2 the bonuses to stats) and 4 Lv later he gets rest.

So Level 3 Campaign: he is a lv 1 Demi-Vamp. Level 7 Campaign he is a full Vamp. By level 7, the template isn't worth 3 levels so so it is balanced at +2.

[Show]

Okay! Thanks, all! I'm glad the general con consensus is that it's fairly balanced. I'll give the player the go-ahead!

[peacenlove]

Remove the children of the night, create spawn and dominate abilities and then it may become an LA +2 or +3 creature. Now it is more overpowered than leadership, and the weaknesses do not mean a thing if he takes precautions.

[Magesmiley]

The abilities sure look nearly the same as 3.5. As I've actually DMed a character with the template, I think that +8 isn't unreasonable. Most of the vulnerabilities aren't as great as one might think. Fast healing, ability boosts, DR (silver AND magic which is relatively rare), bonus feats, dominate, and energy drain, plus others? The +8 seems about right.

That said, if I were DMing, I might allow an eight level progression for gaining the abilities to be used provided that the character alternated between class and racial levels (lasting until the character hits level 16). Essentially let the character take a class level as normal at odd-numbered levels and every even level would be a "racial" level gaining a few more of the vampire's abilities.

[Show]

Hmmm. Okay, there's some balance. I'll work on it with the player, trying to come up with... something. :smalltongue:

[Retech]

Two class levels is already plenty of a gimp.

Taking the vampire template is never an optimization tool in Pathfinder and it's at the very most, balanced. Imo it's already not worth the LA, so if you just let your player take it, it should't be an issue.

[maysarahs]

The vampire template requires that you have 5 hit dice before you can acquire it. Perhaps offer to have him contract vampirism around 5th level (so the low level concerns aren't there?) alternatively look at the Dhampir, which is a PC race with vampire ancestors and maybe swap around some of the abilities with his races?

[JonRG]

Actually, you can just go to edit for one of them and select "Delete Message" above the Edit window. You don't even need to fill in the reason if you don't want. :smalltongue:

I think it's a pretty good template, which does have a lot of weaknesses that'll become especially relevant if he flaunts those powers too much. :smallwink:

(I like Starbuck's method of half now/half later, so he doesn't outshine the other players at low levels.)

[maysarahs]

Actually, you can just go to edit for one of them and select "Delete Message" above the Edit window. You don't even need to fill in the reason if you don't want. :smalltongue:


oops thanks for the tip! I don't post often, I'm too much of a lurker and not enough of a poster...

[Stone Heart]

Might I suggest the Dhampir (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/dhampir) from the Beastiary 2?

Its flavorfully vampirey, though not very similar mechanically. We had a player in our group who wanted to be a vampire, but instead of working out the LA, we just suggested he try that instead.

[peacenlove]

Two class levels is already plenty of a gimp.

Taking the vampire template is never an optimization tool in Pathfinder and it's at the very most, balanced. Imo it's already not worth the LA, so if you just let your player take it, it should't be an issue.

Numberless dominated minions AND loyal to death spawn (which can easily create more spawn on their own) are worth ANY Levels in my book. Really its like thrallherd without casting and limits and instead of losing 10 levels you lose only 2.

[sreservoir]

Numberless dominated minions AND loyal to death spawn (which can easily create more spawn on their own) are worth ANY Levels in my book. Really its like thrallherd without casting and limits and instead of losing 10 levels you lose only 2.

just the first level of thrallherd is more effective than leadership, albeit at cost in manifesting. dominate is really not much better than actual dominate, although it comes online sooner.

[Baroncognito]

Might I suggest the Dhampir (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/humanoids/dhampir) from the Beastiary 2?

Its flavorfully vampirey, though not very similar mechanically. We had a player in our group who wanted to be a vampire, but instead of working out the LA, we just suggested he try that instead.

I was going to suggest that myself. A Dhampir with a level of Sanguine Sorcerer. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/sanguine)

[peacenlove]

just the first level of thrallherd is more effective than leadership, albeit at cost in manifesting. dominate is really not much better than actual dominate, although it comes online sooner.

Supernatural dominate (No SR, no components, limitless use, high caster level, undispelable, Scalable DC with level + charisma, in which you gain a hefty bonus) is worse than the regular dominate? At level 7 earliest? Only bad thing I see is the range but the mobility / stealth bonuses of the vampire more than makes up for it (Just go with gaseous form, surprise him, dominate him)

And the Double HD spawn, which could be easily a person with Double your levels + vampire template AND the will to be totally abused without the slightest hint of complaint, rather than a level - 2 cohort (level - 1 for thrallherd)? Or usually 2 same level + vampire template cohorts? Who can also dominate / create spawn on they own (and the chain continues...).

How do you remotely balance it, even with LA? How can you handle this grave abuse of action economy?

[DrDeth]

Vampires just don't work as PC's. Anything that will challenge the rest of the party the vampire either walks over or can't even try. For example, a 1st commoner standing in a sunny field. Or a castle- the vampire just gases thru the walls.

In any given encounter, either the rest of the group will be standing around with their hands in their pockets, or the vampire will be napping in his coffin.

Try a half-vampire. Cool template. Tone it down a bit, and you're fine.

[Psyren]

Numberless dominated minions AND loyal to death spawn (which can easily create more spawn on their own) are worth ANY Levels in my book. Really its like thrallherd without casting and limits and instead of losing 10 levels you lose only 2.

Technically, Thrallherd also only "loses" 2 levels, since it is 8/10 progression.

I agree though, PC Vamps should not be able to create spawn, or at least have them be horribly gimped.

[Prime32]

The abilities sure look nearly the same as 3.5. As I've actually DMed a character with the template, I think that +8 isn't unreasonable. Most of the vulnerabilities aren't as great as one might think. Fast healing, ability boosts, DR (silver AND magic which is relatively rare), bonus feats, dominate, and energy drain, plus others? The +8 seems about right.If you are a fighter your BAB is 8 points lower. If you're a caster you lost -8CL and four levels of spells. Your hp and saves are terrible, and you basically have a -8 penalty to all skills too. If anyone casts holy word or a similar anti-mook spell you die automatically, with no chance to resist.


Vampires just don't work as PC's. Anything that will challenge the rest of the party the vampire either walks over or can't even try. For example, a 1st commoner standing in a sunny field. Or a castle- the vampire just gases thru the walls.

In any given encounter, either the rest of the group will be standing around with their hands in their pockets, or the vampire will be napping in his coffin.Note that a wizard can pick up all the same abilities as a vampire (including hordes of undead minions) with none of the weaknesses. :smallamused: Better versions of them, in fact.

Size and Type: Undead brings you a ton of immunities, but you can get them for LA +0. Oh, and unlike most undead you can still be killed by vorpal weapons, not that it comes up very often.
Hit Dice: Changing all HD to d12s and removing your Con bonus is crippling for a fighter type. A Raistlin-like mage could benefit from it, but taking this template makes him give up almost half his spellcasting progression.
Natural Armor: Decent-sized bonus, but replicable.
Attack: A slam is pretty easy to pick up, from an LA +0 race or a feat.
Blood Drain: Requires grappling. Most monsters are larger and stronger than you, but if you shapeshift into something larger and stronger you can't use this ability any more. It also doesn't work on things without Con scores. Yeah...
Children of the Night: The summons are equivalent to those from lv1-2 spells, except that there are more of them and they can't be used in combat. The only real use for them is tracking, but they're easy to escape, don't last very long, and can't report their findings to the vampire anyway.
Create Spawn: Somewhere between animate dead (lv3) and create undead (lv6).
Dominate: An lv5 spell, but with worse range. Not as useful for a PC as an NPC since it only works on humanoids; an NPC vampire will usually fight a humanoid party, while PCs usually fight monsters.
Energy Drain: Lv4 spell (enervation) but the ability to channel it through all your natural attacks is actually pretty neat if you get a bunch of them somehow.
Alternate Form: I can't remember the spell that duplicates this, but a wildshape ranger can access thes forms from lv1-6.
Damage Reduction: Everyone has magic weapons, so this is just DR/silver. There are a number of abilities which ignore DR, and it doesn't affect energy damage. Plus shapeshifting can get you better DR anyway.
Fast Healing: Cast black sand instead (you only need to cast it once), or use warshaper or saint for twice as much.
Gaseous Form: An lv3 spell
Spider Climb: An lv2 spell
Abilities: Nice, but you lose them while shapeshifting. Losing your Con score carries drawbacks - while not many Fort-save spells affect you, something like disintegrate can be lethal.
Resistances: Not really significant.
Turn Resistance: Effective +4 to your HD when being turned... except that the template gives you -8HD, making you easier to turn than a skeleton of your level.
Skills: +8 to a bunch of skills... but since you're 8 levels behind it's actually -8 to every other skill. Aside from this not helping you enter PrCs with your low skill ranks.

Compare a necropolitan wizard 20 to a wizard 12/vampire 8. The latter will be much weaker, and have fewer actual vampire abilities.

Really, if you want to play a vampire then find a class for it, which doesn't leave you with a different number of HD to the rest of the party.
http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tome_of_Necromancy_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29/New_Rules#Vampire
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=9557.msg323331#msg323331

[Anarchy_Kanya]

And the Double HD spawn, which could be easily a person with Double your levels + vampire template AND the will to be totally abused without the slightest hint of complaint, rather than a level - 2 cohort (level - 1 for thrallherd)? Or usually 2 same level + vampire template cohorts? Who can also dominate / create spawn on they own (and the chain continues...).
Actually it's even worse, you can have up to twice your HD in spawn. Which means one spawn of any level (yes, even an epic dude) per your HD.