WLD help.

[Vizzerdrix]

So. Me and some friends have decided to take a shot at the World's Largest Dungeon, and for some reason the first thing that came to mind was "Artificer!" followed immediately by the thought "good luck finding time to craft".

All that I know is we'll be a 6 person group. 3 of us have decided on class. An Artificer, a Dread Necromancer and a homebrew class that's going in to be tested. We'll be starting at level 1.

We're going to have a 6 person team, so I feel a that an artificer would be useful, however, if I can't find the time, wealth, and right place to make stuff I'll be more of a hindrance than help. In this, I need advice. I'm going to have to equip a sizable group without tying them down to one spot for long.

I can use a dedicated wright, but I think extra dimensional spaces are a no no, so I'd have to camp it someplace, then worry about constantly going back to it and protection for it. We can't leave, so any items we find can't be sold. That's gonna make crafting a bit tougher as well.

Any advice? I feel it will be smooth sailing if I can just get over those few bumps. I just need some advice on how to do that in the worlds' Largest Dungeon (Preferably without much spoilers).

[FearlessGnome]

Never having played either WLD or an artificer, the one piece of advice that comes to mind is to find a race that doesn't need to sleep (much). You can't spend more than 8 hours in a day crafting fancy magical stuff, so to limit the time loss you could do the crafting while everybody else is asleep.

[Diarmuid]

I realise you're probably not worried about having to acquire the components and whatnot and are planning on just assuming gold to be the same value...but crafting in the middle of the dungeon just seems against the spirit of the idea. Sure you have gold pieces, and crafting has prices in gold piece value, but that doesnt mean you just sacrifice gold pieces to the crafting gods and whatever materials you need appear.

Even if you are able to get some other force/being to do the crafting for you, these things still take time. Is you group just going to hole up and wait for their items to be done when you make new things? And if you're constantly making them items, then you're not making the wands and other UMD devices you'll need to be a contributor to any kind of encounters.

It just seems like a bad idea.

[Xechon]

Are you familiar with the craft point variant in unearthed arcana? http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/UA:Craft_Points

It allows you to pretend that the players have been working on the items over time, and have just now finished them. For materials, you might want to have some survival checks made, unless, as said before, you get your supplies from an external source.

[Fouredged Sword]

Be a party consisting on entierly 1 warforged crusader, one warforged warblade, one warforged swordsage, and a warforged factotum warblade alternateing levels to keep search, disable device, craft (for healing people out of combat) and open lock at maximum level.

Everyone cross class craft skills needed for repair.

Never sleep, never rest. Take the dungeon by storm!

[kestrel404]

Sorry to burst your bubble, but I've played through several maps of the WLD and you're just not going to find enough material to craft with to make anything. Even if you've got an auto-crafting machine going 24/7, you'll need to feed it GP worth of materials, and in the entirety of the 1st map there's a sum total of about 100 gp worth of treasure (plus actually usable items).

Just take it on faith that the following classes are pretty much unworkable in the WLD:
Wizard, Artificer, Erudite, and most Druids (although if you can swap out 'summon nature's ally' via a feat like with greanspan druid and you stay away from spells that require plant life, you'll be able to get by). Also, anything under Tier 4 is just going to die.

[Diarmuid]

Why is a Wizard useless? I could certainly see having to conserve your resources and taking a Reserve Feat or two going a long way.

Is it because you dont find any new scrolls for scribing?

[Fouredged Sword]

The dungeon has wierd "house" rules and activly tries to discurage wizards period.

[Saph]

You can play a Wizard in the WLD, but you have to deal with the fact that you'll basically never find any new spells for your spellbook, ever. And even if you do, you can't buy the special ink to scribe them. And you can't scribe yourself new scrolls, either (the whole "no crafting materials" issue).

Druids, on the other hand, work great as long as you don't rely too much on summoning.

The general rule for the WLD is that the characters and the party have to be as self-sufficient as possible. Divine casters are good at this, as they get their full spell list automatically and they're very good at fixing conditions that can otherwise ruin your day.

[ZombiePunch]

Elf Generalist Domain Wizard with Collegiate Wizard adds six spells to his/her spellbook at every new level IIRC.

Edit: You can also trade scribe scroll for a bonus feat.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Elf Generalist Domain Wizard with Collegiate Wizard adds six spells to his/her spellbook at every new level IIRC.

Houserules were mentioned. I think that means no free spells on level up time.

[kestrel404]

Houserules were mentioned. I think that means no free spells on level up time.

Actually, you still get free spells at level up - but there are lots of 'middle of the night' random encounters that prevent you from getting that 8 hours of uninterrupted rest, and few of the 'protect me while I sleep' spells like Rope Trick work properly (at least not the low level ones).

[Diarmuid]

So that means playing any kind of caster is a problem as they pretty much all need that uninterrupted rest.

[Gavinfoxx]

Can someone figure out and more clearly talk about what exactly the houserules are and how they impact things? Wouldn't classes that don't NEED equipment, like Druid, Cleric, that one variant of Wizard (Google 'Easy Bake No "Worries" Wizard' if you want to play a Wizard) be helpful?? DOES Rope Trick work at all??

[FearlessGnome]

WLD sounds fun.

[kestrel404]

Can someone figure out and more clearly talk about what exactly the houserules are and how they impact things? Wouldn't classes that don't NEED equipment, like Druid, Cleric, that one variant of Wizard (Google 'Easy Bake No "Worries" Wizard' if you want to play a Wizard) be helpful?? DOES Rope Trick work at all??

Most of the 'house rules' revolve around:
- A complete lack of summoning & extradimensional spaces (this is why rope trick fails)
- Hourly random encounters while resting (specifically, there's a random encounter chart that's used every hour a party spends in the same place - the closest thing we got to a night's rest in the dungeon is when we made friends with a tribe of troglodytes and they locked us in their closet - we only had to set one guard and there were no wandering monsters to worry about all night)
- Very strange starvation/sleep deprivation rules that are mainly because there's no food available in the dungeon and hourly random encounters while resting
There were a few others but that's what I remember.

[Gavinfoxx]

I asked a friend of mine and he said that the category of 'devastatingly powerful' spells like entangle and web are ruled as not admissible for PC's...

So this dungeon intentionally removes all area of effect battlefield control from the PC's???

...and summons don't work, and extradimensional spaces don't work... and most or maybe even all teleports don't work... does it say anything about burrowing through stone? There are several abilities that allow that... And Druids CAN NOT use their ability to summon animal companions via meditating, nor can they summon nature's ally??

AND the rules regarding XP advancement are changed too...

AND Take 10 and Take 20 rules are changed or banned...

O,o

[Diarmuid]

So basically everyone should be playing Warforged warlocks with wands of repair light damage?

[Gavinfoxx]

So basically everyone should be playing Warforged warlocks with wands of repair light damage?

And maybe some Psionic types too... MAYBE go some quasi mailman builds?? If the game bans battlefield control, along with a HUGE HUGE HUGE other banlist...


WLD sounds fun.

Yea, after getting off of the phone with my friend regarding all the houserules, I disagree with this statement...

[Diarmuid]

Those sorcs are still going to need to replenish their spells at some point.

[Gavinfoxx]

Those sorcs are still going to need to replenish their spells at some point.

They just need to take reserve feats...

[Diarmuid]

Well, then most mailman style builds wont really be coming into play. No metamagic on reserve feats.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, then most mailman style builds wont really be coming into play. No metamagic on reserve feats.

What I mean is with battlefield control as an entire theme banned, they need SOMETHING to focus on. So I guess action interactions and blasting it is... with backup reserve stuff.

[Drachasor]

How exactly do people heal? I mean, there are obviously a few tricks one could use, but standard healing by resting won't work, nor would divine casters if they can't rest either.

[Gnaeus]

What I mean is with battlefield control as an entire theme banned, they need SOMETHING to focus on. So I guess action interactions and blasting it is... with backup reserve stuff.

I think it depends on exactly which rules the DM uses and how they are interpreted. Like what exactly does battlefield control mean, and should they implement this rule at all given that part of the listed treasure is either a spellbook or scroll of web....


How exactly do people heal? I mean, there are obviously a few tricks one could use, but standard healing by resting won't work, nor would divine casters if they can't rest either.


Time of Day

A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.

[Drachasor]

Ahh, I always thought they had to rest too. How convenient for them.

So WLD is heavily biased against all arcane casters? How lame.

[Gavinfoxx]

Oooh oooh! Divine Casters also get Lesser Restoratoin, so they don't need to sleep.

Also, to be fair, it is CRAZY biased against Druids.

So... Warforged Clerics, I don't think Binders or Warlocks need rest... Factotum can get BY without rest, just assume they don't get their spellcasting... Hmmm, Psionic characters need rest to replace their power points... Anything else?

[JaronK]

Note that the module says you shouldn't give the party spells like Web (specifically mentioned) because they're too powerful... but the one of the first encounters you hit has a Wizard who can cast Web at you (and you can take his book). Basically, the people who made this module use ham fisted house rules to deal with really bad design issues.

The traps are also insane. So make someone who doesn't care about loot and can heal all day... Binders are awesome, Crusaders are awesome, Factotums are a darn good idea too. And yes, being Warforged or Necropolitan (if you can pull the latter off, you'd have to stay in one place for 24 hours which won't be easy) really helps.

If you do want to be a Wizard... Collegate Wizard. No exceptions. And consider Shadowcraft Mage.

JaronK

[Gavinfoxx]

So Crusader, Cleric, Warlock, Binder, Factotum. Anything else we are forgetting, anyone? I would suggest one cleric stated out for divine metamagic, and another statted out as a trapfinder.

[Drachasor]

Also, to be fair, it is CRAZY biased against Druids.

Biased, yes, but I don't think "crazy-biased." Even if spontaneously summoning doesn't get replaced by an ACF, the druid is still really, really strong.

Anything that gives fast healing could be handy.

Really though, a party of Clerics seems like the way to go. Pretty lame.

[Fouredged Sword]

All warforged all the time. No sleep or hunger issues.

[Gavinfoxx]

Re: Drachasor and anti druid bias

Well, it removes SNA, battlefield control (even though no battlefield control used against the party or bfc spells as treasure is a BIG FAT LIE), and the ability to summon new animal companions... so that is a pretty big nerf to druids...

Regarding the party of clerics: They had better all be kobold/trickery cloistered clerics, so everyone can trapfind...

[kestrel404]

I'm of the opinion that the WLD is the killer app for VoP - you get so little loot throughout and no way to BUY anything, that not being able to keep the few scraps that the game designer sends you way is of little to no consequence. The lack of flight is entirely irrelevent when there is not a single flight item in the entire world and no way of crafting one.

Also, as for burrow, the walls of every room are made of solid stone - I'm pretty sure that most burrow speeds have a limitation preventing you from using them to move through that. If not, there's probably another house rule to cover it that never came up in my game.

Oh, and the most common method of healing for us (aside from the Paladin's lay-on-hands ability) was dying and bringing in a new character. We gained more hit points that way than through any other two methods combined.

[Gavinfoxx]

Regarding burrowing through stone, there are at least two creatures that can do that. Thoqqua and Bluespawn Ambusher (though each has a different way of doing that). There are also several ways of getting earthglide. I guess the dungeon walls prevent earthglide too, right? At least the outside ones? That qualifies as 'phasing'?

The walls are completely unbreakable to mortals, right? Can't be damaged, can't be stone burrowed through, can't be phased through, can't be earth glided through, can't be teleported through, etc. etc. etc.?

[Drachasor]

Re: Drachasor and anti druid bias

Well, it removes SNA, battlefield control (even though no battlefield control used against the party or bfc spells as treasure is a BIG FAT LIE), and the ability to summon new animal companions... so that is a pretty big nerf to druids...

Hmm, Mr. Wolfus never got that close to dying on my druid. So I don't think that's TOO big of a concern. Pretty nasty if it happens though, I must admit.


Regarding the party of clerics: They had better all be kobold/trickery clerics, so everyone can trapfind...

Well, you don't need everyone doing it. Still, a Tier 3 or higher Trapfinder is better than depending on a rogue.

[Gavinfoxx]

Hmm, Mr. Wolfus never got that close to dying on my druid. So I don't think that's TOO big of a concern. Pretty nasty if it happens though, I must admit.

What if you want to replace him with a better medium or large creature?? Or what if he DOES die?

[Amphetryon]

If I remember correctly - it's been a long time since I looked at WLD - a VoP Totemist rocks pretty hardcore in that setting.

[Gavinfoxx]

If I remember correctly - it's been a long time since I looked at WLD - a VoP Totemist rocks pretty hardcore in that setting.

Right I KNEW I forgot something. The incarnum classes, right.. Do they need rest? I think Totemist needs rest, right??

[Drachasor]

What if you want to replace him with a better medium or large creature?? Or what if he DOES die?

Like I said if he dies it is a problem (at least before you can rez them). Not being able to replace one that isn't dead is a minor issue -- they remain powerful enough without that.

[kestrel404]

If I remember correctly - it's been a long time since I looked at WLD - a VoP Totemist rocks pretty hardcore in that setting.

I played before I knew about incarnum, but yeah, any flavor of totemist or incarnate would be highly effective. A VoP Totemist (or better, a Soul Manifester) would totally rock the dungeon.

[Saph]

Yeah, I played a Druid through the WLD without any problems. Joined the campaign at level 3, was level 19 when we finally got out. Kept the same dog companion the whole way through. By the time we got out my dog was probably more dangerous than most small towns. :P

The combination of utility spells, healing, and melee combat makes a Druid a very good class for the WLD in my opinion, even without summoning.

[Gavinfoxx]

I played before I knew about incarnum, but yeah, any flavor of totemist or incarnate would be highly effective. A VoP Totemist (or better, a Soul Manifester) would totally rock the dungeon.

I could've SWORN you need rest to reshape soulmelds though??



The combination of utility spells, healing, and melee combat makes a Druid a very good class for the WLD in my opinion, even without summoning.

Did your DM let you keep battlefield control spells?

[Fouredged Sword]

Be a warforged Incarnate.

Also Dread Necromancers are quite powerful if you can get fell animate and make a point to kill stuff with it. Undead make great guards at night and they have unlimited healing if everyone is tainted or undead.

[Gavinfoxx]

Be a warforged Incarnate.

Also Dread Necromancers are quite powerful if you can get fell animate and make a point to kill stuff with it. Undead make great guards at night and they have unlimited healing if everyone is tainted or undead.

So a Dread Necromancer MIGHT be able to open up 'classes that need rest' to the rest of the group? Does anyone know how difficult or easy it is to barricade yourself in rooms in this dungeon?? If the walls are inviolate, but the doors aren't...?

[Saph]

Did your DM let you keep battlefield control spells?

Don't think I bothered using them, unless you count Stone Shape.

[kestrel404]

I could've SWORN you need rest to reshape soulmelds though??

Sure, but how often is that? I'm pretty sure you can manage 8 hours of rest every other level.

[JaronK]

The issue for DNs is that you won't get Onyxs, so a Palemaster dip is advised. But their all day healing would be really helpful in this dungeon.

And yes, VoP is crazy good in this dungeon due to the piss poor treasure.

JaronK

[Fouredged Sword]

Thus you need to get fell animate as soon as posible and use it to kill things whenever posible.

Also there are rules in the BOED for vop characters to forgo material components of spells and use EXP instead. Good luck balanceing raiseing the udead and an exalted alignment though.

So right now we have a call for a tombtainted warforged warblade, a tomb tainted warforged trapfider of some kind (kobold cleric probobly), a tomb-tainted warforged dread necromancer, and a tomb-tainted warforged crusader.

[kestrel404]

Thus you need to get fell animate as soon as posible and use it to kill things whenever posible.

Also there are rules in the BOED for vop characters to forgo material components of spells and use EXP instead. Good luck balanceing raiseing the udead and an exalted alignment though.

So right now we have a call for a tombtainted warforged warblade, a tomb tainted warforged trapfider of some kind (kobold cleric probobly), a tomb-tainted warforged dread necromancer, and a tomb-tainted warforged crusader.

Scratch the crusader - go with a totemist. They'll fill the same role and be better at it, especially if you VoP everyone in the party but one guy (somebody has to carry the plot coupons you pick up at various points, and they tend to be guady things that a VoP char couldn't touch with a 10' pole).

[Fouredged Sword]

I like to mix my totomist with crusader for at least 1 level. Healing with every hit is so tasty with all those natural attack. Feats also work, but eh.

maybe a Crusader 1 / Whirling frenzy barbarian (pounce acf) 1 / Totemist x / totemrager x

Also to note - adimantine body bypasses VOP.

[JaronK]

Adamantine Body doesn't stack with VoP though, so that's useless. One good VoP tank would be very solid though.

JaronK

[Amphetryon]

I like to mix my totomist with crusader for at least 1 level. Healing with every hit is so tasty with all those natural attack. Feats also work, but eh.

maybe a Crusader 1 / Whirling frenzy barbarian (pounce acf) 1 / Totemist x / totemrager x

Also to note - adimantine body bypasses VOP.Totemist doesn't technically need Barb to get Pounce, though if you're going Totem Rager I suppose you might as well. I might snag one of the other spirit totems in this specific instance just to increase utility.

[Fouredged Sword]

True about the armor bonus, but the DR3/- is nice at lower levels, but the balance may be that with a dread necro and crusader healing everyone constantly you don't need it for the lower levels that it is useful.

[Bayar]

Adamantine Body doesn't stack with VoP though, so that's useless. One good VoP tank would be very solid though.

JaronK

Why not ? That was the body you were created in, you cannot take a vow of poverty because of your body ?

[Hiro Protagonest]

Why not ? That was the body you were created in, you cannot take a vow of poverty because of your body ?

I don't think that's what he meant. The AC bonus from adamntine body doesn't stack.

[Crasical]

Currently playing a WLD campaign as a druid, and while I haven't read the module myself, I've been far from unworkable so far. I took the elemental companion ACF and took an earth elemental who's great for scouting and can phase through the stone walls, and is intelligent enough to share Produce Flame with for some low-level blasting. Being a tiki volcano girl has worked out pretty well so far, and melting walls with Soften Earth and Stone so we can just dig around the horrible traps has saved the party from some damage. Trading out the spontaneous summoning for Spontaneous Rejuvination lets you heal a little, (Though I didn't take that as I didn't know it existed when I rolled the character).


Everything that you've been told about the dungeon having crappy treasure is true. So far we've found a magic poisoned dagger and a ring that glows uncontrollably and makes us feel warm, and we've covered a big chunk of the first map...

[JaronK]

Why not ? That was the body you were created in, you cannot take a vow of poverty because of your body ?

Because it's an Armor Bonus to AC, which doesn't stack with VoP bonuses. You can still take the vow, it just won't help any.

JaronK

[Crasical]

So basically everyone should be playing Warforged warlocks with wands of repair light damage?

Where are you going to get the wands?



So WLD is heavily biased against all arcane casters? How lame.

No. The WLD hates -everyone-.


All warforged all the time. No sleep or hunger issues.

'Forged do pretty well in the dungeon, but you'll have to convince your DM to allow them if the dungeon isn't in eberron.


Regarding burrowing through stone, there are at least two creatures that can do that. Thoqqua and Bluespawn Ambusher (though each has a different way of doing that). There are also several ways of getting earthglide. I guess the dungeon walls prevent earthglide too, right? At least the outside ones? That qualifies as 'phasing'?

The walls are completely unbreakable to mortals, right? Can't be damaged, can't be stone burrowed through, can't be phased through, can't be earth glided through, can't be teleported through, etc. etc. etc.?

My DM has allowed my elemental to earth glide through the walls (Not the outer ones), and has let me soften them for us to dig through. If there's a rule against breaking walls then the dungeon is about to get a lot harder for my druid.


Because it's an Armor Bonus to AC, which doesn't stack with VoP bonuses. You can still take the vow, it just won't help any.

JaronK

VoP is an Exalted Bonus. It stacks with Armor Bonus and Shield Bonus, and the deflection bonus you get from later levels of VoP.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here's a thing though -- does the DM say the 'no travelling through the rock' for ALL the rocks, or just for the most outside rocks?? That (among other things) is what you need to know...

edit. Ninja'd, sort of. The OP needs to answer this though.

[JaronK]

VoP is an Exalted Bonus. It stacks with Armor Bonus and Shield Bonus, and the deflection bonus you get from later levels of VoP.

Are you sure? You might want to check the end of page 29/beginning of page 30. Specifically the line "This does not stack with an armor bonus."

JaronK

[Crasical]

Are you sure? You might want to check the end of page 29/beginning of page 30. Specifically the line "This does not stack with an armor bonus."

JaronK

ah, you're correct. Proceed with your smugness.

[Paul H]

Hi

Been playing WLD for some time, Was 13th lvl (died again). Eschew Materials is probably best feat around - very few (if any) places for spells components so far. Restoration, Raise Dead, True Sight etc are nigh on impossible. Think our GM 'added' few bits to make it playable.

Equipment also sucks - you hardly ever find anything appropriate, and food is a very real problem. At start you basically eat what you kill. We survived on Assassin Vine 'salad' for a while. (Halfling Cook).

Later there are no 'natural' animals so you can't replace animal companions, either.

We survived so far because when we die we create new characters with usefull kit (Everlasting Rations, useful weapons & armour, etc). There's loads of good stuff, but it's either beneath what you should be using at that level, or too big. Sometimes not even usable.

Thanks
Paul H

[JaronK]

The thing that really killed our group: it was really boring. So many empty rooms!

JaronK

[Vizzerdrix]

Update: The party now looks to be Dread Necro (I'll talk him into pale master), An orc Barbarian (maybe into frenzied Berserker. I'll try to talk him out of it), a Lesser Aasimar Eldritch Hellfire Ur-Deciple, A ToB beatstick, A skill monkey (still working out the specifics) and thanks to all the good advice I've gotten I'm rolling up a cleric (Looking at Knight of the White Raven+ Ordained Champion). I'm not too keen on losing out on both Cha and Wis as a warforged (I didn't roll all that well) so I'll either go human or lesser aasimar as well.

Healing is going to be at a premium. I'm honestly thinking about blowing my 3rd level feat on Touch of Healing (Comp. Champ) Just so I can patch everyone up at least a little bit (to half HP) without wasting precious spells. I could also tack on Sacred Healing (Comp Divine) at level 6 to help as well, but I have to admit, that feels like I'm doing Cleric wrong somehow.

[Fizban]

Late to the party as usual. I've read through the first few dungeon sections, so I think I can speak on the topic.

There are definitely a lot of ham-fisted housrules suggested (the web one has been pointed out already, so dumb :smallfurious:), but sleeping and eating aren't as bad as people have said. There are at least two different rooms in each region that are specifically listed as safe for resting, and usually a couple more that are supposed to be safe if you wall them up a bit. There's one trap room in particular that becomes literally impossible to enter from the outside once you're inside, which you can then open from the inside with disable device. As for eating, there's a short section about that lists a number of different ideas, ranging from finding food as you need it to just handwaving it by saying nothing needs to eat in the dungeon. The summary is that food is not supposed to be a problem at all, and resting should in theory be easy enough if you find a good room for it.

Edit: Grr, lost the rest of my post. Reconstruction:

The best way to fight WLD is to use stuff that was printed after it came out, and thus was not targeted by the draconican anti-PC housrules. The all-warforged sublime way party is a good idea, though it could replace the swordsage with an arcanist or psionicist. You really need the nova potential and raw spell quality for some rooms. Also good is the all druid plan, except that you absolutely need a skill monkey. WLD is ridiculously trap heavy, to the point where the traps can often be more dangerous than the foes. Half of one of the sections I've read was nothing but traps (aside from random encounters), if that gives you some perspective. I'd recommend a multi-class build, with sorcerer1 to get Instant Locksmith and Spontaneous Search, and cleric3 to get Divine Insight. The sorcerer spells will let you search for and disable traps quickly under pressure, with the search spell giving you results as if you'd taken 10 even if the houserules say you can't, while Divine Insight gives you a massive bonus on skill checks to make up for not being able to buy proper skill bonus items. Fill it in with the skillmonkey base of your choice, such as rogue, ninja, or factotum, and gauge how many more casting levels you'll need for spell slots from there.

For clerics, I recommend the Divine Restoration variant from Dungeonscape. It hardly costs you anything, and there is a section where you will die unless you can restore ability damage at all times. If you want a little more healing capacity without burning feats, the Healing Pool variant from Divine Champion can give you a good amount that'll never be wasted on overkill, and the Touch of Healing feat almost goes without mentioning even though it does cost a feat. (Note: don't knock a dedicated healer build, they can be serious business. I wouldn't bother with Sacred Healing- take either Augment Healing to vastly improve all your healing spells, or Sacred Boost to maximize a few out-of-combat heals per day. Healing's a rather all or nothing gig though, so unless you really intend to focus on it, I'd just take Touch of Healing and the Healing Pool variant to recover between fights without burning too many spell slots).

And regarding magic items, I'll add to what everyone else has said on how little and poor they are with some general examples. The first couple of regions give you some extremely expensive +2 weapons (if you're lucky enough to find them, that is), and pretty much nothing else because that fills up your WBL for quite a while. The next couple of regions have more +1 weapons, a couple +1 armors, and a couple more hard to find +2 weapons in a room you'll probably run away from to avoid dying. There's a nice +2 armor in one room behind a puzzle that you probably won't even know exists, and has a similar "bind on pickup" effect to MMOs that mean the item might be wasted on someone who can't even use it. The best items are naturally owned by NPC groups which are willing to play nice, so unless you slaughter everyone indiscriminately, you probably won't get those either. And not to be too spoilery, but most of the +2 or +3 weapons also have alignment effects that mean a good party will have issues using them (while the dungeon literally has scripted rooms that will simply kill an evil character for existing). In short, it really is best to assume you'll have no equipment aside from basic starting weapons and armor when you're building your character. Maybe you'll get lucky and find something awesome, but luck is not your friend when the entire dungeon is designed to screw you over.

[Darrin]

Healing is going to be at a premium. I'm honestly thinking about blowing my 3rd level feat on Touch of Healing (Comp. Champ) Just so I can patch everyone up at least a little bit (to half HP) without wasting precious spells. I could also tack on Sacred Healing (Comp Divine) at level 6 to help as well, but I have to admit, that feels like I'm doing Cleric wrong somehow.

Silverbrow human with Draconic Aura (Dragon Magic) and the Vigor aura (PHBII) might also work, and doesn't require any actions or reserve spell slots. Works well with warforged, but not so well with Sacred Healing. (If you do go with Sacred Healing, close wounds is your BFF.)

[kestrel404]

Update: The party now looks to be Dread Necro (I'll talk him into pale master), An orc Barbarian (maybe into frenzied Berserker. I'll try to talk him out of it), a Lesser Aasimar Eldritch Hellfire Ur-Deciple, A ToB beatstick, A skill monkey (still working out the specifics) and thanks to all the good advice I've gotten I'm rolling up a cleric (Looking at Knight of the White Raven+ Ordained Champion). I'm not too keen on losing out on both Cha and Wis as a warforged (I didn't roll all that well) so I'll either go human or lesser aasimar as well.

Healing is going to be at a premium. I'm honestly thinking about blowing my 3rd level feat on Touch of Healing (Comp. Champ) Just so I can patch everyone up at least a little bit (to half HP) without wasting precious spells. I could also tack on Sacred Healing (Comp Divine) at level 6 to help as well, but I have to admit, that feels like I'm doing Cleric wrong somehow.

I also recommend Silverbrow Human with Draconic Aura (Vigor) (Silverbrow Human: Races of the Dragon, Draconic Aura: Dragon Magic, Vigor Aura: PHBII).

If you're allowed to take flaws, then here's my recommendation for feats:
Draconic Aura, Wordly Focus, Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Nymph's Kiss
Worldly Focus means you don't need a divine focus (so you can cast cleric spells naked, which is good because you'll only ever have the holy symbol you go into the dungeon with anyway). This also circumvents the VoP issue of whether you're allowed a holy symbol or not. This means you have to worship the Sovereign Host - but they let you take any domains you choose, so they're probably the best 'deity' one can worship anyway (lawful good alignment, so any alignment within 1 step of lawful good is fine - I suggest lawful or neutral good, though).

Nymph's kiss gives you an extra skill point per level (only 1 extra at level 1).

Hope that helps.

[Vizzerdrix]

Could I get a page number for Silverbrow human? I can't find it anywhere in RotD.

[RedWarrior0]

Could I get a page number for Silverbrow human? I can't find it anywhere in RotD.

That's because it's in Dragon Magic and whoever told you RotD was misinformed.

[Gavinfoxx]

Do you have more than one dedicated trapfinder? I would consider perhaps making your cleric also a dedicated trapfinder, perhaps?

Here's an exmaple of a dedicated trapfinding cleric I made for a (dead...) game a while back:

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=292794

Also, what did your DM say about which rules he was or wasn't enforcing regarding the nature of the dungeon? That is REALLY important!

[Vizzerdrix]

While making my cleric a trap finder would be interesting, I'm choosing to take a more melee oriented role.

As for what rules, he's still working that out.

[Fizban]

Huh. I should have thought of it sooner, but another good choice for the trapmonkey would be Dungeonscape's Trapsmith. Quite possibly the best choice. It really is the ultimate in taking down traps. You get an extra bonus up to +5 on your searching and disabling, you get to disable faster, you get more trap sense, damage reduction against traps, spell resistance against traps, and a once per day you can disarm a trap in response to it's going off. Oh yeah, and you get the Trapsmith's ridiculously awesome spell list granting you several awesome spells at the same time the full casters get them, including such gems as arcane sight, arcane eye, clairvoyance, haste, gaseous form, dimension door, and wall of stone. And the booby traps are no slouch either, since they use materials you actually can find in the dungeon. You could very well trap a corridor or room worse than the dungeon did in the first place.

I'd still recommend a sorcerer dip for Spontaneous Search as there's no better way to search a whole room in a single action, and cleric dips are always great for domains and devotion feats, but after that it's skillmonkey base and Trapsmith all the way.

[Paul H]

Hi

Unfortunately our GM is only allowing a few books:

PHB, DMG, MM1, Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer and the Spell & Magic Item Compendiums.

He's suggested he might open it up to Complete Mage at 16th lvl, though.

Also we've got annoying players who steal all the magic items, and make sure the Cleric (my character) never sees them. Including a Crystal Ball (my last char was an Oracle). Since the game allows Spellcraft to ID items, my Magic & Oracle Domain spells (ID Item) are useless.

Only way I get anything is when I die, and then get appropriate wealth by level. :smallmad:
They still expect me to provide all the expensive materials for Restoration, etc. (My new character can't afford any)

Thanks
Paul H

[Gavinfoxx]

Hi

Unfortunately our GM is only allowing a few books:

PHB, DMG, MM1, Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer and the Spell & Magic Item Compendiums.

He's suggested he might open it up to Complete Mage at 16th lvl, though.

Also we've got annoying players who steal all the magic items, and make sure the Cleric (my character) never sees them. Including a Crystal Ball (my last char was an Oracle). Since the game allows Spellcraft to ID items, my Magic & Oracle Domain spells (ID Item) are useless.

Only way I get anything is when I die, and then get appropriate wealth by level. :smallmad:
They still expect me to provide all the expensive materials for Restoration, etc. (My new character can't afford any)

Thanks
Paul H

Only way to get items is to die, and then get WBL? Then Die. A lot. >.>

Also get items that can't actually be stolen from you. It's quite easy if you have access to even a little bit of shapeshifting magic to make an uber-awesome collar which is NOT made to be taken off (combine lots of magical stuff into one, and make it out of something durable) and then shapeshift to something small, put it on, and shapeshift back so it stays around your neck 100% of the time. Now whenever you shapeshift again, depending on how you do it, it will either meld or the size will change with you!

[rgd20]

I don't know if you are PF compatible but if you are then I suggest

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/rings.html#ring-of-sustenance

as a great way to get spells back for casters, quite cheap as well.

[Jarveiyan]

Hi

Unfortunately our GM is only allowing a few books:

PHB, DMG, MM1, Complete Arcane, Complete Divine, Complete Warrior, Complete Adventurer and the Spell & Magic Item Compendiums.

He's suggested he might open it up to Complete Mage at 16th lvl, though.

Also we've got annoying players who steal all the magic items, and make sure the Cleric (my character) never sees them. Including a Crystal Ball (my last char was an Oracle). Since the game allows Spellcraft to ID items, my Magic & Oracle Domain spells (ID Item) are useless.

Only way I get anything is when I die, and then get appropriate wealth by level. :smallmad:
They still expect me to provide all the expensive materials for Restoration, etc. (My new character can't afford any)

Thanks
Paul H

Tell them if they want you to use the expensive material component spells they'll have to pay for the components.

[Paul H]

Tell them if they want you to use the expensive material component spells they'll have to pay for the components.

Hi

That's exactly what they'll be told tomorrow (next game). Also I'm playing LG with Church Inquisitor in the mix.

Should be interesting.....

Thanks
Paul H
PS No PF in this campaign, just the limited books I mentioned

[Jarveiyan]

Hi

That's exactly what they'll be told tomorrow (next game). Also I'm playing LG with Church Inquisitor in the mix.

Should be interesting.....

Thanks
Paul H
PS No PF in this campaign, just the limited books I mentioned

If that's the case - the only items they can identify with spellcraft is potions(DC 25). Any other item will only give schools if you are using det magic(and that after 3 rounds of concentrating).

[Tyndmyr]

If that's the case - the only items they can identify with spellcraft is potions(DC 25). Any other item will only give schools if you are using det magic(and that after 3 rounds of concentrating).

There's a skill trick for that, isn't there? Meh, invest a few skill points as a caster, done deal.

[tyckspoon]

If that's the case - the only items they can identify with spellcraft is potions(DC 25). Any other item will only give schools if you are using det magic(and that after 3 rounds of concentrating).

Magic Item Compendium has rules for identifying with Spellcraft + Detect Magic on everything- if you beat the DC to identify the school(s) by 10, you also ID the item. You can also do it by succeeding a UMD check to use the item by 5 or more, and if you can spare the gold the Artificer's Monocle (1,500 gp) lets you actually Identify things by casting a Detect Magic through it. It's cheap in a normal game, but I don't know if it's worth taking along into WLD.

[Jarveiyan]

There's another way, however you need ranks in appraise and still need costly materials to attempt - Appraise Magic Value Complete Adventurer pgs. 103 and 105(requires 8 hours 25gpv component[s] must know its magical.

[Gavinfoxx]

I personally prefer the Skill Trick method once you get to mid levels... Magical Appraisal is quite useful!

[Vizzerdrix]

Hello again. I'm still working on this. I've rolled my stats and got 12, 16, 8, 15, 14, 17. So far , this is what I'm thinking for a build

Warforged Cleric

Str-16
Dex-8
Con-14(16)
Int-15
Wis-17(15)
Cha-12 (10)

FEATS: (3)
Extra Turning
Healing Devotion (I know it sucks, but the meat bags need to be patched up somehow)
Adamantine Body

Domains: (The Becoming God)
Warforged-Turn/Rebuke constructs 3+Cha mod/day. More turning for healing I guess.
Artifice-I'll swap this out at level 3 for the dungeonscape variant. But for now it puts me at (4+4+2+2=12) on my repair checks, and the list will give Fabricate and other spells to help replace equipment.

Concerns and thoughts:
-Warforged saves my cash for things other than weapons and armor (other than a shield) but the hit to Wis/Cha hurts.
-Also the 8 Dex is harsh, but the option was an 8 int, and I need thems skills.
-I'm not too keen on the domains. Neither one feels like a solid choice to me.
-Cloistered Cleric would be more sound. The skills would be very useful.
-My 1d4 slam isn't going to do much in melee anyways. But then again, if I'm not up front, I can drop warforged and go Strongheart Halfling Cloistered Cleric. And equipment becomes a problem again. :smallsigh:

[Fouredged Sword]

Sacred Vow, VOP if you are able. Now equipment is a non-issue.

[Vizzerdrix]

VOP got shot down :smallfrown:

But I think Ancestral Relic is still okay. I'm 80% recycled warforges!

[Fouredged Sword]

Is there a way to create the stuff you need to make items? An artificer could create any scroll for a wizard if they had the inks and paper.

A transmutation spell of some kind maybe?

[Gavinfoxx]

There are a few ways to get equipment without having it.

1.) Start the game with some Shapesand. This can become whatever tool you need to build stuff. Shapesand shaped tools work well with Unseen Crafter.
2.) Get access to Shape Wood, Magecraft, Fabricate, Unseen Crafter and/or Ironwood. This lets you make magical items from wooden ANYTHING you find, like doors and stuff.
3.) Get access to Wall of Iron, Magecraft, Shape Metal, Fabricate, and/or Unseen Crafter. This lets you make whatever iron based things you need.

[Fizban]

VOP got shot down :smallfrown:

But I think Ancestral Relic is still okay. I'm 80% recycled warforges!

Ancestral Relic is basically the only way to legitimately* make magic items in the WLD, since you literally just sacrifice things that have gp value to fuel it. It does take just as long as normal crafting, but it only takes a few days of prayer at each level to max out your Relic, and there are rooms where you can hole up for that long with no problems. Personally, I think an Ancestral Relic Runestaff is just about the coolest thing you can do with a caster, and pretty dang effective too. That said, a Cleric is more likely to need other items. And speaking of items, don't forget to bring the expensive focii for important spells with you when you enter, even if you can't cast them. Shield Other is amazing, but if you forgot to back the rings two levels ago then you're never gonna get to cast it.

I'm somewhat intrigued by using Healing Devotion for the out of combat healing. At low levels it is indeed a decent pool, and stacking more turning abilities is a cheap and cheesy (in my opinion) way of getting a bunch more uses. And of course since it's fast healing, it won't be cut in half for 'forged. Combined with the Healing Pool variant later on for burst healing maybe (sadly halved for Warforged), that's some serious heals without any spell cost. I hate to see two feats on healing though, especially when one of them isn't even Touch of Healing. Still, it's pretty much the perfect solution when the party has living, living construct, and probably tomb-tainted all in the same group, well done.

On mundane equpiment: uh, is there some reason why you can't use a heavy mace/morningstar like any other cleric? Non-exotic mundane weapons are easy enough to find in the WLD. Just make sure you don't need anything wacky and you should be fine. Don't recognize the Becoming God, but holy symbols are cheap enough I expect you could carve one out of some wood with the craft rules if you really needed a replacement, especially since you don't need to sleep. Heck, you could bring one set of artisan's tools and use those to make more tools to make other things. Just tech tree all the way up, it's not like you're going anywhere :smallbiggrin: Oh, and don't try using ranged weapons unless they're thrown (and thus retrievable) or you're a Soulbow. Arrows are scarce and foes numerous. You'll get an arrow dump every so often, but anyone trying to specialize in archery when you can't buy arrows is just asking for it.

*Aside from Item Familiars, so broken. PHBII bonding rituals are quite awesome and really work for a kind of Mega Man/Metroid/Zelda/whatever kill the boss upgrade system, but the problem is that they still explicitly call out for the usual "miscellaneous magical materials." Ancestral Relic just works. And then of course there's Kensai. And Soulknife into Soulbow, which could be kinda awesome.

[Vizzerdrix]

On mundane equpiment: uh, is there some reason why you can't use a heavy mace/morningstar like any other cleric?

Two reasons:

1- I was planning on taking Shocking Fist at 6th level (Player's guide to Eberron Pg 151) for extra damage and I have to use my slam to deliver it.

2- At level 1 I won't be able to afford a masterwork anything, so my fist is going to be the focus of Ancestral Relic. I'll work on it while the others sleep.

I wonder if sacred fist would be a good path to follow? That with a bit of Sovereign Speaker. I'd have to ditch my armor plating though.

[Fizban]

Ah, Shocking Fist. Okay, I can see why you're sticking with the slam then. Makes things a lot simpler when instead of jumping through buffing hoops you can just punch everything to death with darksword. You've hit the main problem with Ancestral Relic right on the head: the masterwork requirement. Usually that's the kind of thing I'd just say to ask the DM about. While trying to inherit an entire bag of adventuring gear will never fly, a single masterwork item so you can use your feat should be plenty reasonable.

Except that you aren't starting with the feat. Hmmm. . . You could always abuse the church aspect: the feat specifically calls out members of your religous order. So bring a party member who's part of your religous order, then have him craft a masterwork whatever and give it to you (and try to ignore the fact that the mundane crafting rules also require "miscelaneous materials.")

Finally, if you can live with your Relic not being a weapon or armor then it will probably cost a lot less. Masterwork tools are only 50gp, for example. The Noble's Outfit requires jewlery worth 100gp to function properly, which calls out jewlery as a possible tool, so you should be able to buy a Masterwork Amulet for 50gp. Being a warforged cleric wielding a slam attack means your starting gold should be mostly free up and you can buy the spell focii and account for an amulet with sentimental value just fine.

[Vizzerdrix]

Oh that's clever, Fizban. :smallamused:

[Fizban]

Oh, hey, and while we're talking about the darksword technique: don't forget about Blade of Blood (PHBII). Swift action 1st level spell that gives you a bit of damage on your next attack, and lets you burn hp for more. Both of them should give you around a 2 for 1 return on damage taken versus damage dealt. Combination of those two outta be enough for someone else to finish 'em off if they aren't dead already.

Huh. Ya know, you could probably afford to try and pull that even at 1st level. Sure it'd cost you more than half your hp, but it's liable to kill anything you fight at 1st level, and you'll have the AC and DR from armor and shield to just laugh at attacks anyway. Now I wanna make one of these. . . (Er, that'd be assuming you somehow had two feats at 1st level. But Blade of Blood will deal more damage until you level up anyway, if you can afford the spell slots. It's probably the best cleric spell for killing I know at that level).

Edit: or just ignore all that since Blade of Blood targets a weapon and not a fist :smallmad:

[Vizzerdrix]

Update: (No, we still haven't started :smallsigh: )

Dragonborn Lesser Aasimar.
Cleric-3/Monk-1/Fighter-1 Enlightened Fist-10/ Sovereign Speaker-5

Domains:
Healing :smallwink:
??? (Something I can power Devotion feats with)

Feats:
Flaw1- Worldly Focus
Flaw2-Combat Casting ( :smallannoyed: )
HD1-Entangling breath
Domain-Healing Devotion
Monk1- IUS and Stunning Fist
HD3-Ancestral Relic (An amulet)
Fighter1- Combat Reflexes
HD6- Superior unarmed Strike

Plan:
Alternate cleric evenly with the other base classes for prereqs, then alternate EF and SS as needed. Swap out domains for Devotion feats as appropriate.

Gold: 400. (Was a random roll from 1 to 400 gold.)
Shapesand* armor to start and a club. Start hand to hand combat at level 2.
Masterwork amulet for Ancestral Relic. Save the rest in case someone rolls low for wealth, then use the rest for party needs (mule, food, rope, wedges, etc.)
*maybe 2 jugs. Stuff's useful as all get out. :smallsmile:

50g-Thief's Tools


Stats: (12, 16, 8, 15, 14, 17.)
Str-14
Dex-15 (13)
Con-16 (18)
Int-12
Wis-17 (19)
Cha-8 (10)

[Fizban]

Ooh, didn't realize this updated.

Hmm. Well, I can say that I'm pretty sure your build works, but I can't say I'd run it myself. Assuming you're using the suggested divine adaptation for Enlightened Fist, you'll lose 3 casting levels by level six, with another one every other level after that (the divine EF only has casting on even levels, but even if you're using the original progression you'll still be down by 3). Then you lose another if you enter Sovereign Speaker.

Since you won't be functioning as a primary caster, I have to assume you were just going for a "punch things with magic" plan. I think the Shocking Fist warforged cleric would be just fine at that even without extra attacks and flurry. One of my favorite niche spells is Darkfire, a cleric only spell that's a higher level version of Produce Flame (3rd). You can add that on unarmed and slam attacks just like the original and also have a good ranged option, all without having to take any prestige classes (or even a monk dip if you want to retain full casting power). And if you dump the two prestige classes that are costing you casting anyway, you get the two feat taxes back as well. The darksword guy had a lot of synergy and backed it up with full cleric casting, but the monk guy loses a bunch of caster levels in exchange for small damage buffs (oh they're definitely nice, but not better than cleric casting, especially when you can do the same thing but better with Darkfire).

Or maybe it was the breath weapon? Entagling Breath is good, but it's generally ranked so because it provides a no save debuff that's useful against even the powerful foes faced by highly optimized parties. Considering the lower hit points of most of the monsters I've read so far in the dungeon, Maximize Breath would be a lot more useful, and still be usable all day long (though you'd need to start with con 17). While there are tough encounters and boss monsters that a good entagling would be very helpful against, the fact is that they're still much better fought will spells (heck, clerics can even pretend they have grease and cast Ice Slick, with a larger area for the same spell level, or use Frost Breath at 2nd for reflex save dazing). If focusing on breath weapons, I'd also recommend Shape Breath to let you get the much more useful cone shape instead of a line, so you can just cover the whole room. A fist level Dragonborn with Maximize and Shape (and presumably a flaw to pay for them) would just laugh at a considerable portion of the entry area to the WLD.

I'm not exactly sure how using other turning abilities to fuel devotion feats is supposed to work. They all reference turn or rebuke undead, so it doesn't look like it should work to me. Last time I read about it, they were saying something about mincing words and working with some feats but not others, but all the devotion feats use the same wording. The best I can come up with is willfully ignoring the first half of the sentence that clearly says undead, and instead looking only at the second half that just says turn or rebuke. The second half of the same sentence should obviously be referring to the fist half, but I guess the reasoning is that once you have the undead version then you can use any turn or rebuke to fuel the feat? It's so far past thin that I'd pretty much never allow it.

That said, the Spell Compendium gives us Cold, Moon, Scalykind, Slime, and Spider domains that have turn/rebuking. There's also the elemental and plant domains from core. Considering that being a Dragonborn locks you into worshipping the heck outta Bahamut, you're probably stuck with Air or Cold, but that brings into question how you're even getting Healing Devotion in the first place. I'd love to see someone with Healing/Slime for the lolz, but the Slime domain doesn't actually give you any of the Slime/Mold spells!

[tyckspoon]

but that brings into question how you're even getting Healing Devotion in the first place.

You just.. take it. You only need the Domain if you're planning to swap it out for the feat; there's no restriction on just selecting whatever random Devotion you want as a normal feat.

[Fizban]

Nope. "Clerics and Domain Feats: if you are a cleric you can choose any domain feat corresponding to the list of domains granted by your deity, even if you do not have access to those particular domains." You don't have to take the domain for spellcasting if you want the domain feat, but your deity still has to offer the domain. The only people that get to mix and match are the deity-less, and they can't very well be Dragonborn since you pretty explicitly have to worship Bahamut to be one.

And upon further review, apparently Dragonborn can in fact receive spells from other gods, according to their religion section. Apparently he's more of a dad than a god to them, at least when it comes to granting spells. I guess that means you could just receive spells from "cosmic principles" and whatnot, which would let you define your own domains if you don't want to just write Pelor on the sheet and ignore it from then on. It's a bit saddening that the race I love for it's mechanics and hate for it's fluff isn't even restrictive in the one way that fluff controls mechanics.

[rexreg]

i dm'd a fair section of WLD
i read the instructions about area effect spells & promptly forgot to implement that rule
gygax said in one of the 1st ed. books that the rules were guidelines to be used or tossed as desired; none of them were set in stone
it is in this vein that the game should be approached, IMHO

[Vizzerdrix]

1st Game:

Only 2 player's and the DM showed up, so the DM is running a character too. We cleared someplace between 30 and 40 rooms in the first section. The only hard fights so far have been a room full of troglodytes and an ogre, and the troglodytes only because we tried negotiations first and had picked up a follower (A random encounter that was helpful until we let our guard down).

We hit level 3 just after that fight. Most of our treasure is in trinket form so I feel Ancestral Relic is an even better choice. Tomorrow we'll have a full party, so things will get interesting.

To Do:
Look up undead versions of the troglodyte, dire rat, ogre and darkmantle.

[Abaddon87]

Undead? We faced feindish versions of darkmantles and rat swarms for our WLD?

Anyways, any updates so far? Did more people show up?

[Vizzerdrix]

Yes. We have a floating group of about 7 people, with anyplace from 3 to 6 in the game at any one time. We're struggling along. Traps are our biggest problem but no deaths so far, but our rogue is doing what he can, and our warforged is soaking everything else. Equipment of any use is scarce still, but we've done a decent job finding ways around our equipment needs.

I will say this. I feel like I screwed up by not playing an early entry Mystic Theurge. I could have still healed and taken care of buffs/ support in one swoop. Oh well, that's what backups are for. :smallwink: