Warforged Charger LA

[RaggedAngel]

I want to play a Warforged Charger (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/warforged-charger) in an Eberron game, but I feel that +4LA kills the idea of a powerful, durable brute, since you're 4 HD behind the rest of the party. That said, the Charger gets a lot of nice bonuses, including being Large and a +10 to Str and Con, which are balance a bit by a respective -6, -4, and -8 to Int, Wis, and Cha.

The CR of a Warforged Charger on its own is 5; would it be reasonable for a Warforged Charger PC to have 4 RHD and +1 LA?

[Diarmuid]

The link you provided already accounts for 4RHD, so you're basically lobbying to have the LA knocked from +4 down to +1? Most people on these boards agree that simply going from medium to large size is generally worth 1-2 LA, not counting all of the other stuff you would get as a WF Charger.

I think you're a bit off from a balance perspective.

[Greenish]

Most people on these boards agree that simply going from medium to large size is generally worth 1-2 LAEh, RHD is a big balancing factor, and construct HD are among the crappiest ones.

[RaggedAngel]

The link you provided already accounts for 4RHD, so you're basically lobbying to have the LA knocked from +4 down to +1? Most people on these boards agree that simply going from medium to large size is generally worth 1-2 LA, not counting all of the other stuff you would get as a WF Charger.

I think you're a bit off from a balance perspective.

While you do get 4 HD, they're Construct HD, meaning they give 3/4ths BAB and all poor saves. At level 8 you have +3 BAB, +1 for your saves, and no class features or abilities other than charging and bullrushing. While this may be tough against a, say, sword n' boarder, it's not much compared to a good Tier 3-4 build.

[Diarmuid]

It's not optimized no, but it's supposed to be a single minded monster than pretty much charges things.

The extra 5HP per level from the +Con is likely where the "durable charger" part of the description comes from. Speaking of the description, the monster as it's written seems to line up very well with what it's intended for. "An earlier model of warforged than the scouts and soldiers, chargers are larger, less intelligent, and generally less adaptable than their successors. They are designed for a single task: charging enemy defenses and pounding them to rubble."

Playing monsterous races almost never pans out, because they werent intended to be played by PC's. Either way, but I'm sorry, I just cant see all the stat boosts (even with the offsets as those are going to be your dump stats anyways), 2 bonus feats, the special attacks, the size, and the natural weapons being reduced to a measly +1 LA.

[RaggedAngel]

It's not optimized no, but it's supposed to be a single minded monster than pretty much charges things.

The extra 5HP per level from the +Con is likely where the "durable charger" part of the description comes from.
Let's take a Human Warblade, level 8, and a Warforged Charger, ECL 8. They both start with a 10 in Con before racial adjustments.

Human: 12 + 7(6.5) + 0(8) = 57.5 HP, on average.

Warforged: 10 + 3(5.5) + 5(4) = 46.5 HP, on average.

Now that doesn't seem bad, if you ignore the fact that the Warforged Charger is supposed to be very tough and durable, which he is not compared to this fleshy human.

Then you realized that the Warblade has +5 BAB, an iterative attack, better weapons, and 8 levels of initiating. His saves are all at least +1-2 higher, assuming he only has a 10 in Dex and Wis. He also has several strong class features and a slew of skill points. Giving the Warforged Charger a few levels will make him tougher than this Warblade, but he's always going to be way behind on versatility. I think that's a fair trade.


Playing monsterous races almost never pans out, because they werent intended to be played by PC's.
That's... kind of the point of this thread. I'm trying to make a cool character concept pan out.


Either way, but I'm sorry, I just cant see all the stat boosts (even with the offsets as those are going to be your dump stats anyways), 2 bonus feats, the special attacks, the size, and the natural weapons being reduced to a measly +1 LA.
Yes, they are dump stats, but you have to realize that he has *no* skills, a terrible Will save, and hideous social abilities. The natural weapons aren't anything special, the bonus feats are decent, and the "Special Attacks" are in fact a single line saying he overcomes DR/adamantine. Again, I'm not saying I should be able to have this for +1 LA; I'm saying that it should be fair for +4 RHD and +1 LA. Those Racial Hit Die are what make up the discrepancy in power.

[RaggedAngel]

Hm. I'm going to send out one more call for help before I let this die; assuming the 4 racial hit die are set, at what LA is a Warforged Charger balanced compared to a typical group on these forums?

[tyckspoon]

4 HD +1 LA seems fair to me, too. Maybe +2 if you know your DM is fond of encounters and situations that are most readily solved by 'hit it until it breaks', but I wouldn't place it any higher than that. Definitely only +1 if it's to be compared against Tome of Battle classes, Whirling Pouncebarians, and the like.

[Tytalus]

Let's take a Human Warblade, level 8, and a Warforged Charger, ECL 8. They both start with a 10 in Con before racial adjustments.

Human: 12 + 7(6.5) + 0(8) = 57.5 HP, on average.

Warforged: 10 + 3(5.5) + 5(4) = 46.5 HP, on average.

Now that doesn't seem bad, if you ignore the fact that the Warforged Charger is supposed to be very tough and durable, which he is not compared to this fleshy human.


The comparison is a bit skewed.

First, ECL 8 is the worst possible comparison level for the WFC. Compare again at ECL 20:

HP warblade: 12 + 19 * 6.5 + 0 * 8 = 135.5 HP, on average.
HP WFC warblade: 10 + 3 * 5.5 + 12*6.5 + 20*5 = 204.5 HP, on average.

Beginning at ECL 11, the WFC has more HP.



Then you realized that the Warblade has +5 BAB, an iterative attack, better weapons, and 8 levels of initiating. His saves are all at least +1-2 higher, assuming he only has a 10 in Dex and Wis. He also has several strong class features and a slew of skill points. Giving the Warforged Charger a few levels will make him tougher than this Warblade, but he's always going to be way behind on versatility. I think that's a fair trade.


Again, a little skewed. You are forgetting living construct traits, DR, moderate fortification, and reach - which is huge for a melee character. Bonus feats are roughly the same (2 for the WFC, 1 for the human, plus 1 from leveling).

The ability bonuses make the warblade hit as well as the human (so lower BAB is not an issue here) and considerably harder, albeit with one less iterative attack. The latter is, if we are comparing ToB classes, much less of an issue that if we were assuming non-ToB classes.

Saves: Will is worse (about -3, due to WIS penalty), which is a problem. FORT is actually better (about +2 except for ECL8, due to CON bonus), REF is slightly worse (about -1).

The WFC is 6 levels behind on maneuvers and 8 on class features, but gets the nice benefits menitoned above. Doesn't seem too far off, even if +4 LA is a bit much. It's a stronger combat focus, with less versatility. The massive penalties on the mental attributes are part of the package.

IF the LA was only +1, that would mean:

- WFC hits considerably better (+3) and harder and is only 2 levels behind on iteratives
- WFC has better saves overall (WILL -2, FORT +4, REF +0)
- WCF has considerably more HP (gains +3*5.5 +3*5 = 31.5 HP vs. the numbers above)
- WCF is only 3 levels behind on maneuvers and 5 on class features.
- WFC still has living construct subtype and benefits (a net win for melee types)
- WCF still has reach, DR, medium fortification, etc.

Clear win for the WFC, IMHO, assuming you are building a melee type.

[RaggedAngel]

4 HD +1 LA seems fair to me, too. Maybe +2 if you know your DM is fond of encounters and situations that are most readily solved by 'hit it until it breaks', but I wouldn't place it any higher than that. Definitely only +1 if it's to be compared against Tome of Battle classes, Whirling Pouncebarians, and the like.


Clear win for the WFC, assuming you are building a melee type. Ergo, +1 LA is quite a bit off, IMHO.

Hm. I'm getting mixed results, which is fine, but I think further clarification would help, since at level 20 the differences in class levels is minimized and the amount the Con boost helps is maximized: we're starting at level 10, and the game looks like it's going to progress at the usual (slow) PbP rate.

[Hazzardevil]

I have a warforged juggernaut monster class in my signature, you may want to take a look at it.

[RaggedAngel]

I have a warforged juggernaut monster class in my signature, you may want to take a look at it.

While that looks great (and strong, though not overpowered), I really need mental penalties. I have a wonderful backstory brewing for Fist, and he's... barely sentient. Just putting an 8 in all his mentals isn't nearly enough; my current sheet has him at 3, 8, and 4 respectively.

Gods, I love this character almost as much as he loves kittens. I hope I can make this work. I mean, he has cross-class ranks in Handle Animal. What's wrong with me? Did my optimizing gland malfunction?

[Hazzardevil]

While that looks great (and strong, though not overpowered), I really need mental penalties. I have a wonderful backstory brewing for Fist, and he's... barely sentient. Just putting an 8 in all his mentals isn't nearly enough; my current sheet has him at 3, 8, and 4 respectively.

Gods, I love this character almost as much as he loves kittens. I hope I can make this work. I mean, he has cross-class ranks in Handle Animal. What's wrong with me? Did my optimizing gland malfunction?

You could take a -2 penalty on each mental stat every level.

[RaggedAngel]

You could take a -2 penalty on each mental stat every level.

I guess a +4 +0 +4 -4 -4 -4 would be okay, but I'm rather set on playing an actual Warforged Charger from the MMIII. It is, in the end, down to the DM, but I do want to know if the Charger, with 4 RHD, deserves +1, +2, +3, or +4 LA.

[TwylyghT]

Sticking to how WotC weighted the value of stats, +4 is not to far off from standard. Real balance? I don't think I could cut it clear to down to a +1, but i think its a high +2 or a low +3.

And for what it's worth, I'd be tempted to ask if I can trade the adamantine body for mithral and make it up the AC and DR in magic and/or class features. Then I can still benefit from a decent dex and wont be so awfully sloooooooow.

[FMArthur]

The thing is, very, very few melee classes get all those goodies by 5th level, and nearly every kind of brute class would give an arm and a leg for Large size or +10 Strength or +10 Constitution. All enjoy damage reduction, fortification and two extra feats. They aren't getting any of these things for their class levels.

That's not even really the bad part: the mental stats and playing to the race's fluff hobbles the character in a way that damages gameplay. In a combat it doesn't matter at all until someone targets its Will save (keep in mind that it's getting +5 to Fortitude saves, so even that's just a trade). Out of combat, it's almost a nonparticipant. It doesn't have the Intelligence to solve problems or contribute to problem-solving discussion. It doesn't have the Wisdom to represent instincts like animals do. Its Charisma is basically nonexistant, meaning it doesn't even have the strength of personality to stupidly assert dominance in barbaric fashion, let alone a sense of self. It's not even a character at all.

If you want to play something like this at a table, it should be a companion to an actual character you make, such as with a Psion or Ardent dedicated to making Astral Constructs.

[Cieyrin]

Comparing to the other big bruiser PC race, Half-Ogre, they're fairly comparable. Being large is about LA +1 and the other benefits (Favorable Stat adjust, 2 bonus feats, moderate fortification & 2 natural attacks that pierce adamantine vs. Half-Ogre's stat adjust, darkvision & natural armor) seems roughly equivalent, though the Charger has the advantage on that front. When you take into account the RHD being basically feat-less Fighter with a worse skill list, it kinda scales back to about equal in my book, so ECL 6 seems 'bout right to me.

[RaggedAngel]

When you take into account the RHD being basically feat-less Fighter with a worse skill list, it kinda scales back to about equal in my book, so ECL 6 seems 'bout right to me.

I agree with the rest of this, but I would like to point out that the RHD only get 3/4th's BAB and they have one class skill, Jump.

That said, I'm fine with ECL 6. +2 LA sounds pretty fair.

[Diarmuid]

That's not even really the bad part: the mental stats and playing to the race's fluff hobbles the character in a way that damages gameplay. In a combat it doesn't matter at all until someone targets its Will save (keep in mind that it's getting +5 to Fortitude saves, so even that's just a trade). Out of combat, it's almost a nonparticipant. It doesn't have the Intelligence to solve problems or contribute to problem-solving discussion. It doesn't have the Wisdom to represent instincts like animals do. Its Charisma is basically nonexistant, meaning it doesn't even have the strength of personality to stupidly assert dominance in barbaric fashion, let alone a sense of self. It's not even a character at all.

If you want to play something like this at a table, it should be a companion to an actual character you make, such as with a Psion or Ardent dedicated to making Astral Constructs.

Thank you for being the voice of reason. If at the Int 5 of the normal WFC it "haltingly speaks the language of it's creatures" would you even be able to communicate with an Int of 3? While the idea of the creature may indeed be interesting, think about the others in your group who will desperately be trying to get immersed in the world and role-play around the shambling war machine you've created that can barely tell friend from foe.

[TwylyghT]

with +10 to STR and CON, you can likely spare a few points for intelligence. A 14 base gets you to an 8 INT which could work just fine played in the light of a child type personality just becoming aware of the concept of self.

[Cieyrin]

Thank you for being the voice of reason. If at the Int 5 of the normal WFC it "haltingly speaks the language of it's creatures" would you even be able to communicate with an Int of 3? While the idea of the creature may indeed be interesting, think about the others in your group who will desperately be trying to get immersed in the world and role-play around the shambling war machine you've created that can barely tell friend from foe.

Int 3 is the PC limit and is still playable. I had a Half-Orc Barbarian with Int 3, Wis 11, Cha 6-7 going into Primeval that worked surprisingly well. Yes, he had a hard time putting words together but it came down to roleplaying in other ways, letting his actions speak for him when he couldn't think of the proper word to use. "Little man talk funny! He so cute!" *pats head, Str 20 knocks an innocent out*

[FMArthur]

That would make a more playable character, but isn't really relevant to this discussion. The OP wants to play to the race's fluff (ie being a big weapon with no personality) and in fact plans to minimize his mental stats. I'm just saying that I don't think it's good for the game and involves too little roleplaying to be interesting.

I think I need to emphasize that with bottomed-out charisma you can't just be a burly brute who is simply ugly, gruff and insensitive; it means you have almost no force of personality or sense of self at all. The only things to roleplay using a character with no Int, Wis or Cha is mindlessly carrying out orders with phenominally poor interpretation of those orders, or sitting and watching stupidly as events unfold. Sure, that has the potential to be funny. It would be the same joke over and over for a campaign if you made it your character, though.

[Tetrasodium]

Hm. I'm going to send out one more call for help before I let this die; assuming the 4 racial hit die are set, at what LA is a Warforged Charger balanced compared to a typical group on these forums?

The LA is either possibly justified or way too much depending on how your GM handles things like availability of "healing" for you since you only get 50% from conjuration[healing]*, the WF specific vulnerabilities (heat metal, warp wood, rust,monsters, etc) and possibly how you plan on leveling it classwise & the rest of your group makeup. Can you give us a bit of info about the above by chance? I think it could make a very interesing character (look at the WF day in he life story from races of eberron for inspiration)... or it could be a monster powerhouse depending on some things
*100% from repair spells though & certain craft checks can repair n amount over 8 hours

[Person_Man]

You could just play a normal Warforged, and then cast Alter Self. That would give you the size and stat boosts, but with no level adjustment or racial hit dice.

[Cieyrin]

That would make a more playable character, but isn't really relevant to this discussion. The OP wants to play to the race's fluff (ie being a big weapon with no personality) and in fact plans to minimize his mental stats. I'm just saying that I don't think it's good for the game and involves too little roleplaying to be interesting.

I think I need to emphasize that with bottomed-out charisma you can't just be a burly brute who is simply ugly, gruff and insensitive; it means you have almost no force of personality or sense of self at all. The only things to roleplay using a character with no Int, Wis or Cha is mindlessly carrying out orders with phenominally poor interpretation of those orders, or sitting and watching stupidly as events unfold. Sure, that has the potential to be funny. It would be the same joke over and over for a campaign if you made it your character, though.

It still has a Wis of 8 and many an animal has a Cha in the 4-7 range and yet has a personality. There isn't exactly a scale of personality. Donkeys have a Cha of 4 and work quite well for being ornery and fussy. I suspect Ragged is going after a "Gorillas in the Mist" type deal. If the construct was in the 1-2 range, i would agree on it being little better than a lumbering automaton but there's space to work here. Plus, some people like a challenge. :smallwink:

[RaggedAngel]

It still has a Wis of 8 and many an animal has a Cha in the 4-7 range and yet has a personality. There isn't exactly a scale of personality. Donkeys have a Cha of 4 and work quite well for being ornery and fussy. I suspect Ragged is going after a "Gorillas in the Mist" type deal. If the construct was in the 1-2 range, i would agree on it being little better than a lumbering automaton but there's space to work here. Plus, some people like a challenge. :smallwink:

Cieyrin is right; that's about the feel I'm going for. That said, I don't think it's unreasonable at all to knock down his Str and Con a bit to give him more reasonable mental stats.

Something like:
Str: 24 (6 pts)
Dex: 12 (4 pts)
Con: 24 (6 pts)
Int: 6 (4 pts)
Wis: 10 (6 pts)
Cha: 6 (6 pts)


Would that make a mindless, bludgeoning automaton? Because I don't think it would. I think it would make an unintelligent, blunt, powerful brute with a big heart.

[Tetrasodium]

Now that I'm not in a rush to get out of the house quickly I can type bit more detail that was lacking in my last post :). If the healing difficulties are going to be an issue in the game (party/DM specific issue), then the LA is certainly too high & should be lowered. the unique vulnerabilities/immunities are not really a big deal unless the DM plans to use them often, the immunities are all pretty simple to deal with for fleshy types for the most part or not really significant enough to matter. If your planning to go dungeon crasher>Juggernaut... the DM might be wise to consider lowering the LA by too much... especially if the healing doifficulties are not going to be much of a thorn in your side

[Cieyrin]

Now that I'm not in a rush to get out of the house quickly I can type bit more detail that was lacking in my last post :). If the healing difficulties are going to be an issue in the game (party/DM specific issue), then the LA is certainly too high & should be lowered. the unique vulnerabilities/immunities are not really a big deal unless the DM plans to use them often, the immunities are all pretty simple to deal with for fleshy types for the most part or not really significant enough to matter. If your planning to go dungeon crasher>Juggernaut... the DM might be wise to consider lowering the LA by too much... especially if the healing doifficulties are not going to be much of a thorn in your side

The healing isn't that big of a deal, you just change who you go to for your healing (you annoy the Wizard/Artificer instead of the Cleric/Druid). A wand of Repair Light Damage is no more expensive than a wand of Cure Light Wounds is. It sucks you can't take advantage of Lesser Vigor like the rest of the meatbags you adventure with but your Warforged frame didn't come with tear ducts or a personality chip keyed to sadness, only anger and pleasure. :smallwink:

[RaggedAngel]

The healing isn't that big of a deal, you just change who you go to for your healing (you annoy the Wizard/Artificer instead of the Cleric/Druid). A wand of Repair Light Damage is no more expensive than a wand of Cure Light Wounds is. It sucks you can't take advantage of Lesser Vigor like the rest of the meatbags you adventure with but your Warforged frame didn't come with tear ducts or a personality chip keyed to sadness, only anger and pleasure. :smallwink:

I'm definately planning on purchasing a Wand of Repair Light Damage and perhaps a Wand of Repair Moderate Damage; it's not fair to expect the Artificer/Wizard to spend slots or spells healing me.

It even makes for a good opening scene;


There's a heavy, steady sound of footsteps outside the door, the intensity of the noise growing. A mug of mead on the table begins quivering, the golden liquid inside nearly spilling over. Suddenly, with the sound of an explosion the door bursts in, the iron frame nearly buckling with the collision. A massive figure stands outside, its form poorly hidden underneath a tattered, torn cloak, soaked from the rains outside. It forces its way inside, the frame of the door screeching in protest as it enters. It removes its hood to reveal a body of adamantine and obsidian, barely any wood or weaker stone visible in its construction.

The behemoth warforged peers around the room, his eyes settling on a slim, robed figure at a table with a few others, all of them watching the newcomer with wary interest. The warforged charger plods forward, knocking over a chair or two before reaching the assembled adventurers. He looks to the wizard with a quizzical expression, and then brings a massive fist towards his face, his enormous form startlingly fast. In the moment it takes him to move a bow is drawn, and axe readied, and a sturdy dwarf in the corner begins to glow with a faint white light.

The wizard, stunned by the action, merely sits, the warforged's fist a bare foot from his nose. The warforged then, slowly, turns his hand, opening it to reveal two small, battered sticks in his palm. "These make Fist not hurt, when people hurt him. Fist was hurt. Can you help? Fist can help back. Promise." He draws the cloak back, revealing two massive scorch marks on his back and flank, the adamantine twisted and the stone cracked and brittle. "Can you?"

[Cieyrin]

I'm definately planning on purchasing a Wand of Repair Light Damage and perhaps a Wand of Repair Moderate Damage; it's not fair to expect the Artificer/Wizard to spend slots or spells healing me.

It even makes for a good opening scene;

It's no more unfair than how people treat unassertive clerics and druids. Like Clerics, Artificers don't have to choose to memorize the Repair, so at least you're not sucking up potential infusions in that regard. Wizards are second best like Druids are to Clerics when it comes to healing but they can still contribute. The game is team-based and helping your buddies stay up so they can contribute is conducive to everyone's fun. Not saying you should make the Wizard/Artificer your healbot by any means, wanding it is definitely the better option. Keeping around a couple oils of Repair for when you don't have a qualified caster/UMDer around would probably be a good idea as well.

Also, that was cute. :smallbiggrin:

[Tetrasodium]

I'm definately planning on purchasing a Wand of Repair Light Damage and perhaps a Wand of Repair Moderate Damage; it's not fair to expect the Artificer/Wizard to spend slots or spells healing me.

It even makes for a good opening scene;

cute story :) I always liked taking whittling on my WF characters because it lets you make minor repairs and do things like carve little figurines of stuff you've seen so you can ask about it in an amusing warforged-like manner making it a dual investment since a lot of the classes that lend themselves well to warforged tend to be the type that mostly go "I like swords!" outside of combat :)