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Qwertystop
2011-08-22, 12:24 PM
Here's the second thread.



But...doing/attempting impossible things just to see if we can anyways is, like, almost half of what humanity has spent its entire history doing!

(Most of the other half is killing each other.)
Can I sig this?

The Glyphstone
2011-08-22, 12:28 PM
From previous thread:


Here's why using the crit/fumble rules for skills are bad.

Crit: swimming up a waterfall is a suitable use for swim, and walking on a cloud is suitable for balance, as presented in the epic level handbook. A commoner with no training can do that 1/20 times.

Fumble: a legendary swordsmith (level 20, max skill ranks, skill focus) can completely and utterly fail to make a simple knife 1/20 times.


I know, I meant that if they rolled a natural 1, which resulted in a fail.



I prefer to play with the alternate system presented in ELH: If you get a natural 20, roll again and add 20. If you get a natural 1, roll again and subtract 20. Under this system, the commoner needs 4 natural 20s in a row, for only a 1/160000 chance.


I agree with you in principle, but not the examples you used. For example, what 'legendary' swordsmith have you met that would ever rush his work? (That is, why would he not at least take 10?) Nor can I imagine a commoner attempting such things just because the rules of the universe allow it 1/20 times. Still, I don't use crit/fumble for skills myself.


But...doing/attempting impossible things just to see if we can anyways is, like, almost half of what humanity has spent its entire history doing!

(Most of the other half is killing each other.)


I don't think I like that. It may make accidental epic checks near impossible, but it also screws anybody who fumbles a skill check they would normally make on a natural 1.

Player: Alright, I have 14 ranks in tumble. *Rolls die*
GM: A natural 1! Under normal rules, that would be enough to make a standard tumble check, but under our new rules, I'll need you to roll again with a -20 modifier.
Player: Uh... ok. *Rolls die again*
GM: Ohhh a 19. Fantastic roll, but with your negative modifier, your total roll comes out to 13. As you try to tumble pass the orc, he trips you, making you fall flat on your face.

I like to use a 1 counts as -10, 20 counts as 30 rule, but then I also apply this to attacks and saving throws.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-22, 12:39 PM
Or crit fumble tables on attacks. Just because most of them are rediculous.

Ex.: "1? Roll again. 20? Roll again. 20? Insta-kill self. Sorry."

Also, this means that the level 30 barbarian is going to fumble his weapon every few seconds.

Hold on, I've read something relevant.

*looks on google*

Here it is! (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Sameo)

Nyarai
2011-08-22, 12:48 PM
My group uses 137ben's system. (Except if you roll a 20 after a 1, you get to roll again. Occasionally the reverse.)

It allows a master craftsman to have a bad day without losing a limb, and a rookie to "step in the zone" for great success. :smallbiggrin:

Sipex
2011-08-22, 12:53 PM
Include a link to the old thread in the first post so people can read through these things.

The 'Honest' Feedback player

This is the player who won't give you honest feedback no matter how much you ask nor how anonymous you make it. It's almost guaranteed the generic answer from this player falls under "I'm having fun", "Everything's fine" or "I haven't been playing long enough to give an honest answer".

By themselves these answers seem perfectly fine but any attempt to get detailed input is met with resistance and, especially in the case of the latter most answer, it never changes.

This player will often seem bored at the table as well, which usually prompts these questions in the first place. Bonus points if said player suddenly brings a lot of issues out when things come to a head.

Claudius Maximus
2011-08-22, 04:23 PM
Tell me about it. I'm not sure I've ever received any really useful criticism from my group.

Characters That Simply Don't Help the Party

This is the character that learns about the ambush up ahead, and then just kind of smirks and shrugs, without telling the other party members. Frequently it's the same for critical quest information. Maybe they'll act to cover their own ass, but the rest of the characters are on their own. Inevitably has Neutral (probably Chaotic) as a listed alignment.

IT'S A MYSTERY

Even though the party rolled a slew of knowledges in the 30-40 range, no, they do not know even one single thing about this spell/object/whatever, or even know of any leads or anyone else who might know something. Even though 30 on Spellcraft is apparently enough to figure out a unique magic effect on sight, and 30 on Bardic Lore is enough to know a great wizard's forgotten childhood name. Way to make those skill point expenditures worth it.

Egregious with MacGuffins and fiat effects, but possibly even worse with real things that should usually have an actual DC to know about them.

Lappy9000
2011-08-22, 04:31 PM
I only use critical fumble/success at player request, and usually only for them. Occasionally, it's fine if someone pulls off something spectacular with a 20 skill check, by right of the aforementioned 20 and sheer creativity.

Choco
2011-08-22, 04:41 PM
Characters That Simply Don't Help the Party

This is the character that learns about the ambush up ahead, and then just kind of smirks and shrugs, without telling the other party members. Frequently it's the same for critical quest information. Maybe they'll act to cover their own ass, but the rest of the characters are on their own. Inevitably has Neutral (probably Chaotic) as a listed alignment.

Characters That Simply Don't Need the Party

This is the 1-character party, the guy that can single-handedly wipe out anything the DM can throw at the party. The rest of the party are reduced to spectators at best, or obstacles to his progress at worst. When reminded of the optimization level of the party, he can't understand what he did wrong because he was only following the rules.

Nyarai
2011-08-22, 05:08 PM
Characters That Simply Don't Help the Party


Characters That Simply Don't Need the Party


:roy: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0403.html) "We've never met before, and yet I feel an odd spiritual kinship..."

Knaight
2011-08-22, 05:42 PM
Characters That Simply Don't Need the Party

This is the 1-character party, the guy that can single-handedly wipe out anything the DM can throw at the party. The rest of the party are reduced to spectators at best, or obstacles to his progress at worst. When reminded of the optimization level of the party, he can't understand what he did wrong because he was only following the rules.

Urgh, these get old quickly.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-22, 05:47 PM
Characters That Simply Don't Need the Party

This is the 1-character party, the guy that can single-handedly wipe out anything the DM can throw at the party. The rest of the party are reduced to spectators at best, or obstacles to his progress at worst. When reminded of the optimization level of the party, he can't understand what he did wrong because he was only following the rules.

Ooh, I remember one thread where the OP was playing a sorcerer, and his DM wanted him to stop, so he was gonna play a factotum instead (he made the thread to get advice on the build), and he complained about the sorcerer thing with "it's not my fault there's so many broken spell combinations".

Greyfeld
2011-08-22, 08:15 PM
Characters That Simply Don't Help the Party

This is the character that learns about the ambush up ahead, and then just kind of smirks and shrugs, without telling the other party members. Frequently it's the same for critical quest information. Maybe they'll act to cover their own ass, but the rest of the characters are on their own. Inevitably has Neutral (probably Chaotic) as a listed alignment.


SO much this. I'm in a game I've been playing in for almost a year, and one of the players has been nothing but a pain in the ass. When our characters met for the first time (accidental planeshifting inside a strange tower), the first thing he does in-character is ogle the only female character and make inappropriate comments. When half the party jumped him for it, he later used that excuse (and the go-to "My character doesn't know you well enough" excuse) to not share important information about the demon locked in a summoning circle at the top of the tower. When I and my character got tired of this guy being secretive, I was like "Ok, my character wants answers, so he's going to go interact with the demon." And instead of finally deciding to be helpful, he freaking SHOOTS ME!!

Thankfully, my character was an archer, so my return shot, "made in reflex," put him in negatives while I still had half my health left.

Later in the game, the party finds out that this guy's character is dead for one reason or another (the DM was kind enough to split him from the rest of the group to save us from having to deal with him), and he comes back into the game with a new character. We crossed our fingers and hoped he would be more friendly this time around, but no. Again, he seems to have information about the current story arc that we need, but refuses to share it.

At one point, I got my hands on and NPC and went to drag her out to the forest so I could interrogate her without having to worry about the city guards coming to see why there was a woman screaming bloody murder. Mr. Unhelpful tags along for some unknown reason (in-character, we had barely met maybe 20 minutes beforehand), but I didn't say anything to him. Unfortunately, I find out quickly that the chick is psionic, and she takes control of my character, despite being bound. So, I need this player's help, but I tell him, "Don't kill her, I still need to interrogate her." And what does he do? The idiot pulls out some homebrew wand the DM let him have, channeled all his magic into it, and freaking KILLED HER.

At this point, I was god damned livid. Fortunately for me, but unfortunately for him, the drain in power forced his character to lose consciousness, and I took that opportunity (completely alone, no guards around), to slit his throat and steal all his equipment, which i shared with my group. And both in and out of character, none of them seemed to have a problem with it.

Steward
2011-08-22, 08:59 PM
Why does the DM keep giving vital plot information to the one character in the game who repeatedly refuses to share it? If you know someone is going to be a jerk, why give him ready-made ways to harass the other players and a weird, homebrew gadget that he's obviously going to abuse as soon as possible? It seems like a lot of these problems could be fixed by polite, friendly OOC communication.

ryu
2011-08-22, 09:16 PM
If I had to get he was trying to teach his players to self police.

John Cribati
2011-08-22, 09:20 PM
Ooh, I remember one thread where the OP was playing a sorcerer, and his DM wanted him to stop, so he was gonna play a factotum instead (he made the thread to get advice on the build), and he complained about the sorcerer thing with "it's not my fault there's so many broken spell combinations".

I read that thread, too. It was more like "Everyone was playing a Monk or Fighter being horrible at optimization, and I was playing a Moderately optimized Sorc, and they cried 'broken.'"

Unless we're talking about 2 different threads.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-22, 09:28 PM
I read that thread, too. It was more like "Everyone was playing a Monk or Fighter being horrible at optimization, and I was playing a Moderately optimized Sorc, and they cried 'broken.'"

Unless we're talking about 2 different threads.

It was still way above the party's op level and not toning it down.

turkishproverb
2011-08-22, 09:35 PM
Asking centimeter specific details of an arena.

Greyfeld
2011-08-22, 10:58 PM
Why does the DM keep giving vital plot information to the one character in the game who repeatedly refuses to share it? If you know someone is going to be a jerk, why give him ready-made ways to harass the other players and a weird, homebrew gadget that he's obviously going to abuse as soon as possible? It seems like a lot of these problems could be fixed by polite, friendly OOC communication.

Well, the DM is really patient with his players and tends to give everybody plenty of opportunities to prove themselves. This is a player who's been in this campaign for months before I even joined. The DM was basically trying to throw him a bone to see if he'd learned his lesson from the last time, and hopefully get him actually integrated into the party. The homebrew item was something the DM had made, and once he saw how powerful it was, he nixed it from the game (at least until he can fix it).

The really stunning part is the player STILL not understanding what he did wrong.

SlashRunner
2011-08-22, 11:34 PM
Ooh, I remember one thread where the OP was playing a sorcerer, and his DM wanted him to stop, so he was gonna play a factotum instead (he made the thread to get advice on the build), and he complained about the sorcerer thing with "it's not my fault there's so many broken spell combinations".

Personally, I find it rather rude that you would think to complain about someone that you know reads these forums behind their back...

Lhurgyof
2011-08-23, 12:44 AM
Tell me about it. I'm not sure I've ever received any really useful criticism from my group.

Characters That Simply Don't Help the Party

This is the character that learns about the ambush up ahead, and then just kind of smirks and shrugs, without telling the other party members. Frequently it's the same for critical quest information. Maybe they'll act to cover their own ass, but the rest of the characters are on their own. Inevitably has Neutral (probably Chaotic) as a listed alignment.

IT'S A MYSTERY

Even though the party rolled a slew of knowledges in the 30-40 range, no, they do not know even one single thing about this spell/object/whatever, or even know of any leads or anyone else who might know something. Even though 30 on Spellcraft is apparently enough to figure out a unique magic effect on sight, and 30 on Bardic Lore is enough to know a great wizard's forgotten childhood name. Way to make those skill point expenditures worth it.

Egregious with MacGuffins and fiat effects, but possibly even worse with real things that should usually have an actual DC to know about them.

Convinient Rule Misreader
This guy conviniently misreads rules so that they benefit more than they should. This is normally a harmless thing, unless they continue to argue their position. Even when proven wrong. We have a guy that still believes you can get an identify with a DC 20 or so spellcraft check. Sorry, it's more like 30-50.

Border-line Evil Guy
This is the guy that for whatever reason takes a true neutral (or chaotic neutral) character and thinks it gives them free reign to be evil. Sure, torturing and enslaving our foes is REAL neutral. It's fine to be a little muddled, but sometimes take it too far, and more often than not in the chaotic stupid direction.

The Kender
You know him: He finds being aggravating to be funny. He likes and is even amused by stealing from or causing grief to party members. "In the middle of a monster-infested dungeon? Better pull out my harmonica and play. Oh, that's a bad idea you say? Well I'll play louder, ha! "
I used to do this, but I grew the hell up. A little bit here and there is fine, but don't constantly roll up the most annoying, unhelpful PC ever. I swear to god if this guy makes another Kender, I'll force him to leave the party and we'll just hire a trapfinder.
My god I hate Kender. :smallmad:

ufis
2011-08-23, 01:07 AM
Characters That Simply Don't Need the Party

This is the 1-character party, the guy that can single-handedly wipe out anything the DM can throw at the party. The rest of the party are reduced to spectators at best, or obstacles to his progress at worst. When reminded of the optimization level of the party, he can't understand what he did wrong because he was only following the rules.

So many ways for the DM to solve this. Just looking at OOTS you can find so many ways.
Prime example (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)

Underlined: Well that is just the DM's fault.

Knaight
2011-08-23, 01:17 AM
So many ways for the DM to solve this. Just looking at OOTS you can find so many ways.
Prime example (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)

Underlined: Well that is just the DM's fault.

The best being getting the player to play along with everyone else.

ufis
2011-08-23, 01:23 AM
The best being getting the player to play along with everyone else.

Of course :)

I never understand why people persist in playing with objectionable players.

Totally Guy
2011-08-23, 02:19 AM
The 'Honest' Feedback player

This is the player who won't give you honest feedback no matter how much you ask nor how anonymous you make it. It's almost guaranteed the generic answer from this player falls under "I'm having fun", "Everything's fine" or "I haven't been playing long enough to give an honest answer".

By themselves these answers seem perfectly fine but any attempt to get detailed input is met with resistance and, especially in the case of the latter most answer, it never changes.

This player will often seem bored at the table as well, which usually prompts these questions in the first place. Bonus points if said player suddenly brings a lot of issues out when things come to a head.

This has really struck a chord... :smallfrown:

I sent a message to the group with my big list of problems with the detective style game I'm playing.

But when I was asked by the group before I couldn't think of the root problems there and then. It took a lot of searching on my own. I'd previously been pretty incoherent when trying to explain these problems as they are made up of multiple parts with complicated implications.

I sent the big long list in order to break the cycle.

The host was supposed to have messaged me by now to tell me when the next session will be. But he hasn't. I don't know if he'll ever talk to me again. :smallfrown:

Sipex
2011-08-23, 08:13 AM
Ah, you're the opposite. If I understand you correctly, you were honest and possibly got struck by a DM who didn't want to hear it? Ouch.

JediSoth
2011-08-23, 08:38 AM
Something else that bugs me is the Elitist Jerk. This is the guy who makes a point before the game starts of telling everyone how much experience he has playing the game and rants how newbie players ruin his fun because they're so stupid and don't know all the rules. He then goes one to tell everyone how he can constantly do X amount of damage every second (somehow he's calculated the DPS of an RPG in a turn-based game) and the DMs can't touch him because he so awesomely meta-gamed and optimized his one-trick pony to be untouchable in combat and he could probably solo the event if it didn't require him to sit at a table with at least three other people.

Fortunately, I've only encountered this guy at organized play events. More fortunately, I didn't have to play with him, because I think it would have further colored my perception of the game and OP.

Provengreil
2011-08-23, 09:07 AM
So many ways for the DM to solve this. Just looking at OOTS you can find so many ways.
Prime example (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0627.html)

Underlined: Well that is just the DM's fault.

that was me in one campaign, and it was totally the DMs fault i could deal with everything, because I was a sorceror and every enemy we ever fought, except for 2, was mindless(zombies, constructs, oozes, and so on) so they never got near us. my friend(there were only 2 of us) did help some, but he wasn't actually necessary.


Something else that bugs me is the Elitist Jerk. This is the guy who makes a point before the game starts of telling everyone how much experience he has playing the game and rants how newbie players ruin his fun because they're so stupid and don't know all the rules. He then goes one to tell everyone how he can constantly do X amount of damage every second (somehow he's calculated the DPS of an RPG in a turn-based game) and the DMs can't touch him because he so awesomely meta-gamed and optimized his one-trick pony to be untouchable in combat and he could probably solo the event if it didn't require him to sit at a table with at least three other people.

Fortunately, I've only encountered this guy at organized play events. More fortunately, I didn't have to play with him, because I think it would have further colored my perception of the game and OP.

a round is 6 seconds. if you take the damage you deal in a round(lets say you average 36) and divide it by 6 seconds, that's 6 damage per second. not the best way to say it in a turn based environment, nor am I suggesting this guy isn't a jerk, but it can easily be done, especially for a melee character who's doing much the same stuff every round.

DiBastet
2011-08-23, 09:50 AM
The (Too) Supercool Player

I find it really annoying when someone can't realy thin about a character flaw, and their characters never ever fail. We play some very immersive drama sessions, with some pulp action here and there. In this enviroment, it is supposed chars will sometimes argue, and make stupid things on purpose of the players just to be able to sometimes say "...yes...you were right all this time". This is the kind of player that whose char never, ever, does that, and uses this moment to stand as the perfect in every possible situation. He plays the class the is the most needed, yet without weaknesses, probably some kind of class (never a druid, because they are dirty, probably a cleric without god); he chooses flaws like "Honest" or "Gallant" "Honored" "Cold Blood" and never anything that remotly resembles a flaw in body or character, only good things taken to an extreme.


The Girlfriend

I hate girlfriends and boyfriends or whatever in my games. If I wouldn't invite your boyfriend to my game if he wasn't your boyfriend, don't think I will just because of that. Specially if the person does NOT care to game.

jguy
2011-08-23, 01:00 PM
Characters That Simply Don't Need the Party

This is the 1-character party, the guy that can single-handedly wipe out anything the DM can throw at the party. The rest of the party are reduced to spectators at best, or obstacles to his progress at worst. When reminded of the optimization level of the party, he can't understand what he did wrong because he was only following the rules.

By accident, I actually made a character just like this. It was an undead focused campaign so I made a Half-Orc Cleric that worshiped the Light itself. The backstory was he had been cursed with blindness and was terrified because as a creature born with Darkvision, he had never known the concept of constant blindness. It was cured and he "wanted to bring light to the dark corners of the world". He had the Sun and Travel Domains.

I asked the DM if we could use the damage turn variant for ease of use and he approved. He hated the chart just as much as we did. Since regular turning did 1d6/level, I asked if Greater Turning did 2d6/level. He approved. Wasn't too bad at first, I was doing a decent amount of damage a turn and could focus my spells on healing the party. Then I got Quickened Turning and went into Radiant Servant of Palor (refluffed to just Radiant Servant). I suddenly had a whole lot more Greater Turnings.

At level 8, I was doing 16d6 as a swift action every turn. As random treasure, I got a fully charged wand of Eagles Splendor. What I would do is cast it on myself, giving myself 2 temporary Greater and Regular Turnings, then use them in the fight. I also had Consecrate cast on my holy symbol at all times, upping my turning and lowering their saves to it. I was soloing EL + 2 fights in two or less rounds. This was all without even going into having full cleric castings.

At level 9 I officially retired my character once I had the Teleport spell and left the party. We fluffed it that my guy had received a message that his hometown was under attack by undead and he needed to save them but out of game it was because he was just too disruptive and strong for the party. Remains the only character I have ever had to completely retire from a campaign because it took away from the fun from the rest of the party.

Greyfeld
2011-08-23, 01:38 PM
The "I don't use that supplement" DM

This is the DM who absolutely refuses to let you use something from an out-of-the-way supplement, regardless of how reasonable it is, or how much it fits your character thematically, because it's not in the supplements he originally listed.


Recently, I decided to apply to this 3.5 campaign that looked really interesting. All the characters are X//Vampire gestalts, and the game starts right after your character was turned. After coming up with a concept, I looked over the template we were using, and it grants the character a slam attack. I felt that this didn't mesh with my character concept and tried to get it traded in for claws, which the DM refused to allow.

So, I looked through the classes and I remembered recently hearing about the Eldritch Claws feat for warlocks. I found the source, and it was Dragon Magazine 358. I tried to show the feat to the DM, and without even looking at it, told me, "Sorry, I don't let anything in from Dragon Magazine."

Volthawk
2011-08-23, 05:57 PM
So, I looked through the classes and I remembered recently hearing about the Eldritch Claws feat for warlocks. I found the source, and it was Dragon Magazine 358. I tried to show the feat to the DM, and without even looking at it, told me, "Sorry, I don't let anything in from Dragon Magazine."

To be fair, Dragon Mag is of very questionable balance.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-23, 06:06 PM
To be fair, Dragon Mag is of very questionable balance.

The PHB introduced CoDzilla and the monk.

Volthawk
2011-08-23, 06:10 PM
The PHB introduced CoDzilla and the monk.

Core being unbalanced doesn't mean other sources become not unbalanced, you know.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-23, 06:11 PM
Core being unbalanced doesn't mean other sources become not unbalanced, you know.

Pretty much nobody bans core.

LansXero
2011-08-23, 06:11 PM
[B]The Girlfriend

I hate girlfriends and boyfriends or whatever in my games. If I wouldn't invite your boyfriend to my game if he wasn't your boyfriend, don't think I will just because of that. Specially if the person does NOT care to game.

Yeah thats a big no-no for me as well, yet some people insist on bringing them along (or the SOs insist on coming alone under threat of not letting them attend the game otherwise) and it mostly makes everyone awkward when someone at the table is being bored / miserable and passive agressive and trying to leave every 20 mins.

Volthawk
2011-08-23, 06:17 PM
Pretty much nobody bans core.

Still doesn't mean other things can't be banned.

Although personally I never like banning sources outright, I was just saying how I could see how the GM was thinking.

Greenish
2011-08-23, 07:02 PM
To be fair, Dragon Mag is of very questionable balance.Not more so than other sources, by and large. You want to single out some part of 3rd Ed. canon as "of very questionable balance", I'd nominate FR books.

Volthawk
2011-08-23, 07:04 PM
Not more so than other sources, by and large. You want to single out some part of 3rd Ed. canon as "of very questionable balance", I'd nominate FR books.

I wouldn't know, I haven't really looked at FR stuff.

I knew that posting that was gonna be a pain...why did I still do it?

DiBastet
2011-08-23, 07:51 PM
I don't usually just ban entire sources. I make my list of sources, original or 3rd party; and all others it should fit the character concept, and I'll gladly rework it if I find it too strong.

You know, if you really must have it because if fits the Concept soooo much, then you'll se no problem if I change the Mechanics if they're broken.

Volthawk
2011-08-23, 07:59 PM
In terms of sources I allow, I'm generally relaxed about it, I just have a few rules:

1) If it's homebrew/3rd party, let me know where it's from so I can have a look at it. In general, let me know where your stuff is from.

2) Don't be a **** about it.

3) I reserve the right to talk to you about what you're using and ask you to tone it down (outright banning and forbidding happens if this doesn't work) if I feel you're not staying to the level of optimisation the group is at, or if you're going against the feel of whatever game we're in.

4) Don't be a **** about it.

big teej
2011-08-23, 08:18 PM
The "I don't use that supplement" DM

This is the DM who absolutely refuses to let you use something from an out-of-the-way supplement, regardless of how reasonable it is, or how much it fits your character thematically, because it's not in the supplements he originally listed.


Recently, I decided to apply to this 3.5 campaign that looked really interesting. All the characters are X//Vampire gestalts, and the game starts right after your character was turned. After coming up with a concept, I looked over the template we were using, and it grants the character a slam attack. I felt that this didn't mesh with my character concept and tried to get it traded in for claws, which the DM refused to allow.

So, I looked through the classes and I remembered recently hearing about the Eldritch Claws feat for warlocks. I found the source, and it was Dragon Magazine 358. I tried to show the feat to the DM, and without even looking at it, told me, "Sorry, I don't let anything in from Dragon Magazine."


I'm guilty of that first part.... but I'm very open and up front about it. "allowed sources are restricted to what I personally own in hardcopy"

I find it slightly ridiculous he wouldn't let you swap out slam for claws though.... I'm pretty sure I'd let that go.

granted, dragon magazine is definitly out of bounds for me.

Seb Wiers
2011-08-23, 08:19 PM
But...doing/attempting impossible things just to see if we can anyways is what a very miniscule fraction of humanity has spent the entirety of history doing, while the rest kicked back and reaped the benefits.

Edited for anthropological accuracy.

LaughingRogue
2011-08-24, 01:13 AM
Pretty much nobody bans core.

I ban things from Core all the time

Alter Self, Polymorph, Gate , a few more ...

Greyfeld
2011-08-24, 01:32 AM
I don't usually just ban entire sources. I make my list of sources, original or 3rd party; and all others it should fit the character concept, and I'll gladly rework it if I find it too strong.

You know, if you really must have it because if fits the Concept soooo much, then you'll se no problem if I change the Mechanics if they're broken.

Don't get me wrong, I very much understand the "I don't own that book, so I'm not allowing it" mentality. Because if you don't own the book, how can you check on the mechanics of anything that comes from it?

Also, I'm all for making sure that characters don't get ridiculous within the scope of the campaign.

However, in this specific case (and in general, this is the sort of situation I'm talking about), I specifically had a screenshot of the feat in question for him to peruse (nullifying the "i don't have access to that" argument), and the feat itself was very moderate (hey, let's give the squishy tier 5 class a set of claws so that they can double their originally pathetic damage if they're willing to wade into melee).

Despite these facts, the response boiled down to "Sorry, no Dragon Mag. No, I don't care if it's balanced, or thematically fits your character."

Greyfeld
2011-08-24, 01:33 AM
I ban things from Core all the time

Alter Self, Polymorph, Gate , a few more ...

I think that's the point. You ban things FROM core, not core itself.

peacenlove
2011-08-24, 01:57 AM
To be fair, Dragon Mag is of very questionable balance.

Usually at the low end of optimization (meaning useless) and, for its volume, nature and amount of material, surprisingly well written (especially the compendium).
And if you mention Dvati, just take a look at the Erudite or the Illithid heritage feats or the Monster manual 2.


Something else that bugs me is the Elitist Jerk. This is the guy who makes a point before the game starts of telling everyone how much experience he has playing the game and rants how newbie players ruin his fun because they're so stupid and don't know all the rules. He then goes one to tell everyone how he can constantly do X amount of damage every second (somehow he's calculated the DPS of an RPG in a turn-based game) and the DMs can't touch him because he so awesomely meta-gamed and optimized his one-trick pony to be untouchable in combat and he could probably solo the event if it didn't require him to sit at a table with at least three other people.

Encountered :smallfurious: (but it was about his superior knowledge of vampires and how Vampire was the superior game and how vampires were the superior race in every game he played and you were a noob if you didn't play a vampire in D&D and how unfair was the DM that banned vampires at level 1... you get the idea)
Must suppress memory...:smallfrown:

MlleRouge
2011-08-24, 03:59 AM
The "I don't use that supplement" DM


I used to/somewhat still am guilty of this when it comes to Tome of Battle and Dragon Magazine. I refused to allow ToB classes for two years, ending the ban only recently.

Dragon magazine is case by case basis, which I think is fair.


I can sympathize with this problem, though. It sucks to have a DM ban something that makes perfect sense for absolutely no reason. I've never had it happen, but I imagine it would be highly frustrating, especially if the reason was 'just because'.

TroubleBrewing
2011-08-24, 05:57 AM
I used to/somewhat still am guilty of this when it comes to Tome of Battle and Dragon Magazine. I refused to allow ToB classes for two years, ending the ban only recently.

Dragon magazine is case by case basis, which I think is fair.

You win an internet! Good for you! I'm currently in the process of forcing my group to expand their horizons by restricting core classes to ToB, Psionics, Binders, Factotums, or Incarnum. It's going swimmingly.

The point that I took from Greyfield's story is more the fact that the DM banned a huge pool of resources purely "because". Banning things on a case-by-case basis is fine, and it's something I fully support (I'm looking at you, StP Erudite/Thrallherd/Planar Shepherd), mainly because you actually have to know what you're banning before you apply massive restrictions to character creation.

137ben
2011-08-24, 08:27 AM
My group uses 137ben's system. (Except if you roll a 20 after a 1, you get to roll again. Occasionally the reverse.)



Yea, I use that too:smallsmile:


Something else that bugs me is the Elitist Jerk. This is the guy who makes a point before the game starts of telling everyone how much experience he has playing the game and rants how newbie players ruin his fun because they're so stupid and don't know all the rules. He then goes one to tell everyone how he can constantly do X amount of damage every second (somehow he's calculated the DPS of an RPG in a turn-based game) and the DMs can't touch him because he so awesomely meta-gamed and optimized his one-trick pony to be untouchable in combat and he could probably solo the event if it didn't require him to sit at a table with at least three other people.
I know that guy...
He insisted that he would devise tactics for every encounter, because he knew what he was doing, and the rest of us were horrible at combat strategy.

flumphy
2011-08-24, 08:58 AM
The Girlfriend

I hate girlfriends and boyfriends or whatever in my games. If I wouldn't invite your boyfriend to my game if he wasn't your boyfriend, don't think I will just because of that. Specially if the person does NOT care to game.

That has been me in the past. :smallmad: In my defense, it was entirely because my husband dragged me, and not because I hate to game, but because I hate the people he games with and their insistence on a chaotic stupid loot-and-murder-fest. Don't get me wrong, my husband has the right to hang out with whoever he wants, and it's their right to play like that if that's what they find fun. I just really don't want to have to sit through it myself.

It's kind of hard to say no when he's breaking down in tears though. :smallfrown: Maybe by banning some of those significant others you're doing them a favor!

Choco
2011-08-24, 09:24 AM
Elitist Jerk. This is the guy who makes a point before the game starts of telling everyone how much experience he has playing the game and rants how newbie players ruin his fun because they're so stupid and don't know all the rules. He then goes one to tell everyone how he can constantly do X amount of damage every second (somehow he's calculated the DPS of an RPG in a turn-based game) and the DMs can't touch him because he so awesomely meta-gamed and optimized his one-trick pony to be untouchable in combat and he could probably solo the event if it didn't require him to sit at a table with at least three other people.

Bonus points if this guy is in fact a TERRIBLE player who only thinks he is good because his past DM's have gone easy on him and/or given him what he wants just to shut him the hell up. Just like the guys who claim to be optimizers and make things that are T4 at best.


That has been me in the past. :smallmad: In my defense, it was entirely because my husband dragged me, and not because I hate to game, but because I hate the people he games with and their insistence on a chaotic stupid loot-and-murder-fest. Don't get me wrong, my husband has the right to hang out with whoever he wants, and it's their right to play like that if that's what they find fun. I just really don't want to have to sit through it myself.

It's kind of hard to say no when he's breaking down in tears though. :smallfrown: Maybe by banning some of those significant others you're doing them a favor!

I think what he was mostly complaining about is the other kind of couple, where the non-gamer significant other practically FORCES the gaming one to take them along, or else. I have seen that happen a lot more than your situation, where a significant other forces themselves into the game on threat of not allowing the gamer to show up, and then proceeds to ruin the game for everyone.

DiBastet
2011-08-24, 10:11 AM
I still ban ToB classes. However, I fully support martial disciplines (we use 17 of them in my setting, with the nations and races that created them fully integrated) and buying manuevers with feats (you can learn as many as you want; initiator level equals character level; and you can ready 2 + number of iterative attacks you have -so 3 at 0 bab, 4 at 6, 5 at 11 and 6 at 16 bab-). No recovery mechanic.

There are people who still say I'm short-sighted in banning the classes...

Choco
2011-08-24, 10:25 AM
I still ban ToB classes. However, I fully support martial disciplines (we use 17 of them in my setting, with the nations and races that created them fully integrated) and buying manuevers with feats (you can learn as many as you want; initiator level equals character level; and you can ready 2 + number of iterative attacks you have -so 3 at 0 bab, 4 at 6, 5 at 11 and 6 at 16 bab-). No recovery mechanic.

There are people who still say I'm short-sighted in banning the classes...

IMO that depends on why you ban them. If you ban them because you don't want to make all other martial classes in existence useless, then I can support your decision. If you ban them because they are "overpowered/broken" and yet you allow T1 classes and all of their game-breaking spells to get by unmolested, then I honestly would be quite annoyed.

Grendus
2011-08-24, 10:51 AM
The Zoo: It's not uncommon for a game to have rules for combat pets, be they animal companions that scale with your level or just taming wild creatures so they travel with you. Some players, however, make a point to train as many creatures as they can, quintupling the party size with a bunch of creatures that take up space in the party order, extensive amounts of time in combat, and, depending on the system, experience from other players. Even worse, these creatures are often worthless to the overall scale of the battle, at best taking an attack that may or may not have actually landed against the PC. But try convincing The Zoo to leave behind even his pet chihuahua and he'll scream and cry about how you never let him have the pet he wants and you've always been trying to keep him from having fun.

The Machine Gun: Some systems let you get bonus attacks, either for being high level or for investing your resources (feats, dots, IIQ, whatever) in specific fighting styles or weapon types. This is the guy who picks up all the multiple attack bonuses at once to attack 14 times per round. Even if he's an efficient roller, which he/she isn't more often than not, it can still easily double the length of a round and aggravate even the most serene of players. Bonus points if this is the ADD player in the party who you have to drag back to the game to roll their two dozen attacks before you can move on.



I admit, I was the machine gun. I still am, actually, but much more scaled down (3 attacks/round, down from 13, in a system where even epic adventurers usually only get one). My sister was the zoo, in fact, she's the reason we put in a bunch of limits on Animal Handler in our homebrew system.

Provengreil
2011-08-24, 11:54 AM
I still ban ToB classes. However, I fully support martial disciplines (we use 17 of them in my setting, with the nations and races that created them fully integrated) and buying manuevers with feats (you can learn as many as you want; initiator level equals character level; and you can ready 2 + number of iterative attacks you have -so 3 at 0 bab, 4 at 6, 5 at 11 and 6 at 16 bab-). No recovery mechanic.

There are people who still say I'm short-sighted in banning the classes...

We ended up banning ToB because the only 2 who played it were from the same mold and refused to read the parts that didn't interest them. like the way to figure out maneuver levels, or what it takes to do a maneuver. a lot of stuff got by us until the warblade 8/bloodstorm blade 10 tried to use a melee maneuver that dealt 100 extra damage or something at 200 feet as a swift action. that's when i got really suspicious(before, i'd always just said to myself that melee was finally getting some nice stuff).


The Zoo: It's not uncommon for a game to have rules for combat pets, be they animal companions that scale with your level or just taming wild creatures so they travel with you. Some players, however, make a point to train as many creatures as they can, quintupling the party size with a bunch of creatures that take up space in the party order, extensive amounts of time in combat, and, depending on the system, experience from other players. Even worse, these creatures are often worthless to the overall scale of the battle, at best taking an attack that may or may not have actually landed against the PC. But try convincing The Zoo to leave behind even his pet chihuahua and he'll scream and cry about how you never let him have the pet he wants and you've always been trying to keep him from having fun.


I tried this kinda thing once. with all the summoning related feats i took and even a buffing metamagic, it worked pretty well, but i couldn't stand the 18 statblocks i had to have on hand and so dumped the idea.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-24, 12:01 PM
We ended up banning ToB because the only 2 who played it were from the same mold and refused to read the parts that didn't interest them. like the way to figure out maneuver levels, or what it takes to do a maneuver. a lot of stuff got by us until the warblade 8/bloodstorm blade 10 tried to use a melee maneuver that dealt 100 extra damage or something at 200 feet as a swift action. that's when i got really suspicious(before, i'd always just said to myself that melee was finally getting some nice stuff).

You can actually do that. If you take the Martial Study feat at 18th level, you can get SoPC, seeing as how you can get 9th level maneuvers at 17th level and higher. Bloodstorm Blade let's you treat your thrown weapons as melee. He must've taken a big penalty for range increment at that distance though.

And if you're screaming OP, he can't use it with a full attack or the BSB's special attacks, and at this level, wizards are hidden in some super tight security place, adventuring with their astral projections shapechanged into dragons for 18 hours a day.

Provengreil
2011-08-24, 12:34 PM
You can actually do that. If you take the Martial Study feat at 18th level, you can get SoPC, seeing as how you can get 9th level maneuvers at 17th level and higher. Bloodstorm Blade let's you treat your thrown weapons as melee. He must've taken a big penalty for range increment at that distance though.

And if you're screaming OP, he can't use it with a full attack or the BSB's special attacks, and at this level, wizards are hidden in some super tight security place, adventuring with their astral projections shapechanged into dragons for 18 hours a day.

I'm not screaming anything, he was still weaker than my sorceror. The rules issue actually came from 2 things: 1, bloodstorm blade doesn't add initiator levels, so you actually can't have 9th level maneuvers, you're back at 4th or 5th, maybe less if you went in really early. that's why people really only dip 2 levels bloodstorm, usually. second, that maneuver is NOT a swift action. that's the part that actually threw an alarm bell, it just didn't sound right. and yes, he was taking -10 to hit, but with a +4 weapon, a STR of 26, and BAB 18, he still had +20 and so AC wasn't much of a problem for him.

as for hidden wizards adventuring with astral projections, do you actually know someone who's done that at the table? because for all their super tight defensive capability, I can't possibly imagine using much of it to end up being considered "fun." come to think of it, why did a wizard get involved in this conversation anyway?

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-24, 12:49 PM
as for hidden wizards adventuring with astral projections, do you actually know someone who's done that at the table? because for all their super tight defensive capability, I can't possibly imagine using much of it to end up being considered "fun." come to think of it, why did a wizard get involved in this conversation anyway?

Because the wizard is a class. And no, I've never seen it done, because my group has never gotten past level 5. I would use Astral Projection, because it would save time over the party bringing me back to town and paying a cleric for resurrection.

Umberhulk
2011-08-24, 02:34 PM
The player who RPs the same character, regardless of the fact that its a new campaign, new story, new class and they are playing. Now I accept that most do not enjoy role playing as much as me, but even a small effort is appreciated and requires little work.

This type often includes those uncomfortable with role playing, those really annoying gamers who sabotage the party, and those who use his "character motivation" to justify antagonistic behavior towards other players.

Traab
2011-08-24, 02:59 PM
I can understand that one if its a really annoying character. A nice chaotic stupid kender type of character who enjoys screwing over the party constantly, especially if he does it in a way that lets him get away with it in game leaving you no real choice but to continue grouped with him. But if its some basic generic, "Hi, im roger, I love long walks in dark dungeons, chilling in the tavern, and looting shiny objects." then while I can see it being boring, its not something id personally care too much about. You said it yourself, not everyone really loves to rp, and honestly, if he IS roleplaying that character, id accept it as good enough. At least he is going that far and not writing up a generic character backstory and personality, then ignoring it completely.

DiBastet
2011-08-24, 07:57 PM
Despite these facts, the response boiled down to "Sorry, no Dragon Mag. No, I don't care if it's balanced, or thematically fits your character."

I see your pain. Had plenty of these before, the ridiculous "only official, no dragon mag, period". "So, kingdom of kalamar and dragonlance are okay? *me, being a jerk*" "No, those not too" "Why? Aren't they official?" "No, I mean, yes, but you can't use". It's so much better to say "If you want to use, YOU provide me the source. I hold the right to change whatever I want in it, but if it's a new system that I find complicated, don't expect approval". So much easier. It's a kind of compromise: You want to use Anti-Feats, bring me Villain Design Handbook (it's official wotc D&D 3.0), and I say yes, but I'm going to expand the list to get all feats from completes and races, and if the anti-feat isn't appropriate (like a spell anti-feat for a martial char), then you re-roll it. A seriously interested player will accept a compromise. A powergamer will SURELY at least groan.


Maybe by banning some of those significant others you're doing them a favor!

That's what I believe, lady. If you bring your significant one because the significant one Demands, you'll gave to solve it. If YOU insists, then believe me I'M going to solve.


IMO that depends on why you ban them. If you ban them because you don't want to make all other martial classes in existence useless, then I can support your decision. If you ban them because they are "overpowered/broken" and yet you allow T1 classes and all of their game-breaking spells to get by unmolested, then I honestly would be quite annoyed.

The reason is an absolute necessity, and the DM should always tell players why he's banning a thing or the other. I, for example, ban the ToB classes because I don't believe they bring anything new to the game except for the auto-gain of manuevers and I dislike that, allowing the manuevers as feats. Manuevers and stances bring; the classes don't, for me.

Also every caster in my game is spontaneous. So t2 at most. ;)


This type often includes those uncomfortable with role playing, those really annoying gamers who sabotage the party, and those who use his "character motivation" to justify antagonistic behavior towards other players.

And let us not forget the Specialist gamer. He may not be disruptive or a bad player, but ooohhh how much he likes to be the warrior monk who shoots laser, or the sexy busty and booty sorceress with red hair. I've seen both happen, frequently...

Tanuki Tales
2011-08-24, 08:12 PM
A powergamer will SURELY at least groan.

You meant to say Munchkin, right? :smallconfused:

The Glyphstone
2011-08-24, 09:19 PM
You meant to say Munchkin, right? :smallconfused:

No, powergamer applies there too. A munchkin would accept the 'compromise', then conveniently forget the downsides whenever they were important.

Tanuki Tales
2011-08-24, 09:22 PM
No, powergamer applies there too. A munchkin would accept the 'compromise', then conveniently forget the downsides whenever they were important.

I know, I was just getting a vibe of negativity from reading what he wrote that is usually reserved for the negative connotations of being a munchkin that are sometimes miscast on powergamers too. Since both types of players attempt to make as powerful a character as they can and sometimes end up being lumped together as the same thing.

Thus me positing if he meant what I got from his post.

The Glyphstone
2011-08-24, 09:24 PM
I know, I was just getting a vibe of negativity from reading what he wrote that is usually reserved for the negative connotations of being a munchkin that are sometimes miscast on powergamers too. Since both types of players attempt to make as powerful a character as they can and sometimes end up being lumped together as the same thing.

Thus me positing if he meant what I got from his post.

They're mostly the same, just one will stick to the rules and one will abuse them. A powergamer will groan at any restrictions - an optimizer will shrug and accept them, recalculating the new limits into their optimization plan.

Tanuki Tales
2011-08-24, 09:30 PM
They're mostly the same, just one will stick to the rules and one will abuse them. A powergamer will groan at any restrictions - an optimizer will shrug and accept them, recalculating the new limits into their optimization plan.

I think that's kind of a sweeping generalization.

And since when was "powergamer" completely divorced from "optimizer" and turned into an insult in the same vein as "munchkin"? :smallconfused:

The Glyphstone
2011-08-24, 09:45 PM
I think that's kind of a sweeping generalization.

And since when was "powergamer" completely divorced from "optimizer" and turned into an insult in the same vein as "munchkin"? :smallconfused:

I treat it as a sliding scale - optimizing is 'good', powergaming is 'neutral', and munchkinry is 'evil'.

Tanuki Tales
2011-08-24, 09:57 PM
I treat it as a sliding scale - optimizing is 'good', powergaming is 'neutral', and munchkinry is 'evil'.

Eh, I guess I can see that then.

I'll toddle off now, carry on all, after giving my own annoying addition:

Misplaced Aggression

When the DM is the whipped half of a toxic relationship and takes out the frustrations and impotency issues, that he can't address to the significant other that hands them to him, on his group.

Lhurgyof
2011-08-24, 10:48 PM
The Monster
This is the guy that is never, never satisfied with the core races. Or even normal races.

Sharn, Half-Ogre, Illithid, Minotaur, Giant Space Hampster, you name it! They'll play it as long as it's not a human.

We had a guy in our group that kept rolling up Half-ogre barbarians. :smallsigh:

big teej
2011-08-24, 11:16 PM
The Monster
This is the guy that is never, never satisfied with the core races. Or even normal races.

Sharn, Half-Ogre, Illithid, Minotaur, Giant Space Hampster, you name it! They'll play it as long as it's not a human.

We had a guy in our group that kept rolling up Half-ogre barbarians. :smallsigh:

I went through a Monster phase :smallredface:

mostly ogres... the ocasional lycan, and I believe some other monstrous creatures...

thankfully, none of these monstrosities have seen play.... though I really do wanna play Bill, the were-bison some day...

lycanthropes are hard to make :smallannoyed: I have yet to make it through a lycan's charactersheet without getting lost.

Lhurgyof
2011-08-24, 11:19 PM
I went through a Monster phase :smallredface:

mostly ogres... the ocasional lycan, and I believe some other monstrous creatures...

thankfully, none of these monstrosities have seen play.... though I really do wanna play Bill, the were-bison some day...

lycanthropes are hard to make :smallannoyed: I have yet to make it through a lycan's charactersheet without getting lost.

See, it's fine occasionally.

And a were-bison seems fun. But sometimes the party is sick of travelling with a horde of half-dragon half-vampire half-ogre thri-kreen.

big teej
2011-08-24, 11:23 PM
See, it's fine occasionally.

And a were-bison seems fun. But sometimes the party is sick of travelling with a horde of half-dragon half-vampire half-ogre thri-kreen.

oh obviously, heck I'd get tired of playing a monster pretty quick, depending on how long the campaign/character lasted.

if I didn't quite get enough kicks and giggles out of Ogre PC bob, well then I'll pick up a rather similar tack with Minotaur PC steve...

at least until I get my fill of the "giant monstorsity that is bigger than you mwuahahaha" thing. :smallbiggrin:

*.*.*.*
2011-08-24, 11:28 PM
The Monster


This is me, I just have the most fun when playing exotic races. I, ironically enough, have still played the most humans out of my group. If I'm not playing something with LA or RHD, I'm a human.

The Glyphstone
2011-08-24, 11:29 PM
Eh, I guess I can see that then.

I'll toddle off now, carry on all, after giving my own annoying addition:

Misplaced Aggression

When the DM is the whipped half of a toxic relationship and takes out the frustrations and impotency issues, that he can't address to the significant other that hands them to him, on his group.

Oh, that's a good one. Related:

The Projector
Similar to the above, but broader beyond toxic relationships. The entire game revolves around either fulfilling the DM's vicarous urges towards some RL issue. A good hint is when the DM enjoys viscerally describing the agonizing death of the BBEG, and the BBEG happens to strongly resemble the DM's boss at work in appearance and/or name.

Lhurgyof
2011-08-24, 11:30 PM
oh obviously, heck I'd get tired of playing a monster pretty quick, depending on how long the campaign/character lasted.

if I didn't quite get enough kicks and giggles out of Ogre PC bob, well then I'll pick up a rather similar tack with Minotaur PC steve...

at least until I get my fill of the "giant monstorsity that is bigger than you mwuahahaha" thing. :smallbiggrin:

Man, that's like the one time I played an umberhulk... but he was a number-crunching accountant in a suit. :smallbiggrin:

flumphy
2011-08-24, 11:46 PM
The "But You Let Him Use It" Guy

Maybe he doesn't understand that not all gaming material is created equal. Maybe he doesn't care. All that matters is that he gets to use that class or that feat, no matter how broken or nonsensical it is. If you refuse on the grounds of balance issues, he will inevitably point to another thing from the same source that you did allow at one point and accuse you of showing favoritism. He will proceed to suicide the character and/or sabotage the party for the life of the campaign out of spite.

This, incidentally, is why I have resorted to banning all third-party and homebrew until I know whether this guy is in the group. Yes, there are plenty of official sources that are broken, but by limiting myself to that I can at least make a ban list up front to foil any similar accusations.

Sipex
2011-08-25, 07:30 AM
The "But You Let Him Use It" Guy

Maybe he doesn't understand that not all gaming material is created equal. Maybe he doesn't care. All that matters is that he gets to use that class or that feat, no matter how broken or nonsensical it is. If you refuse on the grounds of balance issues, he will inevitably point to another thing from the same source that you did allow at one point and accuse you of showing favoritism. He will proceed to suicide the character and/or sabotage the party for the life of the campaign out of spite.

This, incidentally, is why I have resorted to banning all third-party and homebrew until I know whether this guy is in the group. Yes, there are plenty of official sources that are broken, but by limiting myself to that I can at least make a ban list up front to foil any similar accusations.

Now THIS is a good reason to ban stuff like Dragon Magazine, at least until you know your players well enough.

DiBastet
2011-08-25, 07:43 AM
A powergamer will groan at any restrictions - an optimizer will shrug and accept them, recalculating the new limits into their optimization plan.

That's exactly my point with the powergamer aspect. I made my players into optimizers. They make nice concepts then they work with what they have to make the best of it. If they want to play a dual wielding giant swords guy, they will make the best of it, not say "bah, scrap it, play a wizard", or some kind of thing like this. In my opinion the optimizer makes good of a concept, the powergamer only wants power, not concept, and the munchkin will never play in my games.



Misplaced Aggression

When the DM is the whipped half of a toxic relationship and takes out the frustrations and impotency issues, that he can't address to the significant other that hands them to him, on his group.

I've seen this happen, with players, from the DM chair. Never, never, I've seen unmasking early the male changeling spy, beating him with non-lethal, interrogating him (with a heated "I TRUSTED YOU! You were supposed to be on my side. On OUR side! BUT YOU BROKE MY TRUST!"), then hanging him, make SO good SO fast to a female player than in one of these situations. Well... her boyfriend was a jerk anyway...



The Projector
Similar to the above, but broader beyond toxic relationships. The entire game revolves around either fulfilling the DM's vicarous urges towards some RL issue. A good hint is when the DM enjoys viscerally describing the agonizing death of the BBEG, and the BBEG happens to strongly resemble the DM's boss at work in appearance and/or name.

I take the example more as a joke than a real example, but from the point of view of a psychologist, I would love to see this scene.

Traab
2011-08-25, 08:22 AM
Oh, that's a good one. Related:

The Projector
Similar to the above, but broader beyond toxic relationships. The entire game revolves around either fulfilling the DM's vicarous urges towards some RL issue. A good hint is when the DM enjoys viscerally describing the agonizing death of the BBEG, and the BBEG happens to strongly resemble the DM's boss at work in appearance and/or name.

There is a seductive woman npc who gets one of the party to fall for them then ruthlessly stabs him in the back. Later on you elarn the dm just broke up with his girlfriend because she cheated on him.

All the scholarly classes seem to swoop in and crush all obstacles in their path, high damage rolls, constantly managing to get lucky rolls to miss trap damage, every npc is their friend and willing to give them whatever they want. But god help the player who rolled up a barbarian fighter of some sort. All his spot checks will fail, he will always somehow take massive damage in traps due to screen hidden rolls, the dm will make certain any time he tries to interact with an npc it goes badly. Then later on you learn the dm recently got the swirly treatment from a bunch of jocks or something.

big teej
2011-08-25, 08:33 AM
Man, that's like the one time I played an umberhulk... but he was a number-crunching accountant in a suit. :smallbiggrin:

I seem to recall this character being mentioned in a past thread..... I also seem to recall informing you that I was totally stealing the idea and throwing it into my campaign world. :smallbiggrin:

The Glyphstone
2011-08-25, 09:05 AM
I take the example more as a joke than a real example, but from the point of view of a psychologist, I would love to see this scene.


There is a seductive woman npc who gets one of the party to fall for them then ruthlessly stabs him in the back. Later on you elarn the dm just broke up with his girlfriend because she cheated on him.

All the scholarly classes seem to swoop in and crush all obstacles in their path, high damage rolls, constantly managing to get lucky rolls to miss trap damage, every npc is their friend and willing to give them whatever they want. But god help the player who rolled up a barbarian fighter of some sort. All his spot checks will fail, he will always somehow take massive damage in traps due to screen hidden rolls, the dm will make certain any time he tries to interact with an npc it goes badly. Then later on you learn the dm recently got the swirly treatment from a bunch of jocks or something.

Yeah, these are probably more realistic examples - a DM who looks to be going Office Space on his boss by proxy is someone you want to get professional help, or the cops.

Traab
2011-08-25, 09:09 AM
Yeah, these are probably more realistic examples - a DM who looks to be going Office Space on his boss by proxy is someone you want to get professional help, or the cops.

I dunno, id say at least that way he is venting in a manner that wont end up with the office being lit on fire. (really should have given back his stapler)

Winds
2011-08-25, 03:04 PM
The Hated Race


This guy can't let go of races most adventurers should be capping. Drow? Teifling? Hellbred? Here they come...you've got an in-character reason not to kill them, right?

I don't mind it showing up sometimes (much like a monstrous ally is cool sometimes) but I don't like spending 80% of a character intro figuring out how not to kill/refuse/maim/insult them.



I'd be worried about the projector, too.

Greenish
2011-08-25, 03:29 PM
This guy can't let go of races most adventurers should be capping. Drow? Teifling? Hellbred?Hellbred? The repentant good-doers with favoured class: paladin? Adventurers should kill them on sight? :smallconfused:

Drow, in most settings, yeah. Tieflings, maybe in some settings. But hellbred, not seeing it.


Though I tend to think the whole "always chaotic evil, kill on sight" is a bit silly.

Winds
2011-08-25, 04:12 PM
It is a bit silly for most races, like how it's pretty easy for a Teifling or Half-Drow to be perfectly ordinary folks. As for the Hellbred, their usual alignment and favored class does very little to avert the fact that they look like devils or demons.

Greenish
2011-08-25, 04:30 PM
It is a bit silly for most races, like how it's pretty easy for a Teifling or Half-Drow to be perfectly ordinary folks.Who says they aren't ordinary folk? Besides, tieflings don't necessarily look all that different from humans.


As for the Hellbred, their usual alignment and favored class does very little to avert the fact that they look like devils or demons.Maybe if you're an ignorant dirt-farmer (though their entry says they get along with everyone if they keep their nature concealed), but unusual looks are hardly grounds for considering them unfit for adventurers.

turkishproverb
2011-08-25, 04:35 PM
The Hated Race


This guy can't let go of races most adventurers should be capping. Drow? Teifling? Hellbred? Here they come...you've got an in-character reason not to kill them, right?

I don't mind it showing up sometimes (much like a monstrous ally is cool sometimes) but I don't like spending 80% of a character intro figuring out how not to kill/refuse/maim/insult them.



I'd be worried about the projector, too.

The secret is to not bloody kill things on sight based on race.

WildPyre
2011-08-25, 04:46 PM
The secret is to not bloody kill things on sight based on race.

Reminds me of a game I run where some goblins have set themselves up as a respectable race while others continue to be savage and vicious.

The players were traveling down a road and heard a ruckous coming up behind them. They turned around and saw a large procession of goblins on wargback leading a wagon stuffed with goblins singing and chanting. They we all set for a big battle and freaking out, only to find out that it was just a local goblin sport team and their supporters headed for a festival.

137ben
2011-08-25, 05:00 PM
The Hated Race


This guy can't let go of races most adventurers should be capping. Drow? Teifling? Hellbred? Here they come...you've got an in-character reason not to kill them, right?

I don't mind it showing up sometimes (much like a monstrous ally is cool sometimes) but I don't like spending 80% of a character intro figuring out how not to kill/refuse/maim/insult them.



I'd be worried about the projector, too.
In True Munchkin (3.5 variant partially based on the card game, where players are assumed to be Munchkins, and the DM is suppose to want to kill them), the PHB section on dwarves tells you you should be that way about elves (even if you don't kill on sight, you should hate them. Particularly, if you don't get enough treasure, than the party elf stole your share).

Winds
2011-08-25, 05:04 PM
The secret is to not bloody kill things on sight based on race.

Maybe it would help if you knew what was happening when we met these...When the Drow showed up? The only other Drow we'd met beat us over the head and tried to enslave us. Oh, or were launching a full invasion of the area. The Hellbred/Teifling pair? Met after journeying through a city filled with demons and evil adventurers, where exactly one thing wasn't trying to kill, eat, and toture us, and the only resaon we trusted that was because that person actually saved our bacon. When I say it's hard to think of an excuse, it's because both these encounters were after the characters have spent many hours being beat up/tied up/ nearly killed/actually killed by small armies of that race right before meeting these.

I don't mind this normally, but this number of times thinking of an excuse to befriend something when every other encounter with something similar has indicated I should have already started blasting? Bothersome.

WarKitty
2011-08-25, 05:33 PM
These two tend to be the result of each other.

The Everything is Out to Kill You DM
Literally everything is out to kill you. Not just the monsters. The shopkeeper is going to try to kill you after you sell him stuff. You're mysteriously wanted in every town. And nothing is willing to negotiate. Or take prisoners. Even the peasants are probably evil demons out for your blood in disguise.

The Everything is Out to Kill You Players
They assume everything is out to kill them. See above.

Foeofthelance
2011-08-25, 08:05 PM
The Kender
You know him: He finds being aggravating to be funny. He likes and is even amused by stealing from or causing grief to party members. "In the middle of a monster-infested dungeon? Better pull out my harmonica and play. Oh, that's a bad idea you say? Well I'll play louder, ha! "
I used to do this, but I grew the hell up. A little bit here and there is fine, but don't constantly roll up the most annoying, unhelpful PC ever. I swear to god if this guy makes another Kender, I'll force him to leave the party and we'll just hire a trapfinder.
My god I hate Kender. :smallmad:

I second this mostly because I like Kender. The problem is that most players don't understand the mindset behind the race. Kender aren't stupid, they're a combination of "curiosity killed the cat" and comic relief. Yes, they will push a button just to see what it does. Yes, they will wander through a dark door despite a sign that says, "Here there be monsters" just to see what the monsters will look like. On the other hand, if a wizard tells them, "Touch that and I will burn you!" then the Kender thinks, "Gee, I've never been roasted by a wizard, but I bet that would hurt."

Which brings us to...

Players Who Insist on Racial Stereotypes

When they play a race, they make sure to trump up that race's better known "qualities". Their orc is always thicker than a pallet load of bricks, despite a reasonable 15 Int score. Their elves don't have egos, they have EGOS. Their dwarves are personally responsible for the mead and ale industries, and their gnomes are nothing more than little pyromaniacs.

DiBastet
2011-08-25, 08:19 PM
I hate that guy that MUST be from the hated race of the setting. He's gotta be drow in FR north, a yuan-ti in the fr south, a rakshasa in eberron, and a draconian in dragonlance, etc etc.

Gnoman
2011-08-26, 10:31 AM
drow in FR north

Reminds me of a player I had once. His character was a blatant Dr'zz't clone, except for alignment. His speciality was doing odd jobs for someone, then killing and looting them. Because they had heard of the good drow with two scimitars, they were more likely to overlook the traditional racial hatred.

DogbertLinc
2011-08-26, 10:52 AM
Reminds me of a player I had once. His character was a blatant Dr'zz't clone, except for alignment. His speciality was doing odd jobs for someone, then killing and looting them. Because they had heard of the good drow with two scimitars, they were more likely to overlook the traditional racial hatred.

That, good sir, is hilarious levels of douchebag.

jjpickar
2011-08-26, 11:16 AM
I feel that I must disagree about the no-feedback players as an annoyance. I DM a lot and do ask for feedback a lot but what I've come to realize is that the game means more to some than others and generally a lot less to the players than the DM. I wouldn't blame any player for enjoying a simple dungeon hacking existence without having to bother their heads with theory and design. For them, a game is like watching a summer movie. They enjoy the experience for a few hours and then get up and go back to their lives without another thought. This is why I cultivate a strong critical relationship with the players that do care about the design of the game.

In short, its not a personal problem for someone to not share the same enthusiasm for a hobby that you do.

Also, theZoo :smallmad: I cannot tell you the travails I have had with the Zoo.

Choco
2011-08-26, 01:16 PM
The Zoo: It's not uncommon for a game to have rules for combat pets, be they animal companions that scale with your level or just taming wild creatures so they travel with you. Some players, however, make a point to train as many creatures as they can, quintupling the party size with a bunch of creatures that take up space in the party order, extensive amounts of time in combat, and, depending on the system, experience from other players. Even worse, these creatures are often worthless to the overall scale of the battle, at best taking an attack that may or may not have actually landed against the PC. But try convincing The Zoo to leave behind even his pet chihuahua and he'll scream and cry about how you never let him have the pet he wants and you've always been trying to keep him from having fun.

I admit I've kinda-sorta done that in a game before. My character specialized in making minions (via summoning, necromancy, creating constructs/homunculi, all of the above, etc.). My character didn't participate in combat herself, usually just sending 1-3 top-tier combat minions in her place (well, not THE most powerful one, that one was a fluke of luck and so OP it wasn't funny, not to mention it was not possible for it to go incognito, so it did nothing but guard duty...). The rest of the minions did utility tasks, guarded the base, etc. So I guess it wasn't nearly as annoying as what you describe, but it COULD have been if I insisted on all 100+ of them traveling around with the party and participating in every combat...

This leads to another one that REALLY drives me up a wall both as a DM and a player:

The Unprepared Summoner: This guy loves him some summoning spells. What he never does is stat out his summons ahead of time. You can bet that any combat involving him will contain at least one summon, and thus the game will be on pause for half an hour while he constructs/augments his summon monster that will only be around for 5 rounds. Next time he just has to summon something completely different and create another monster from scratch, all over again. Of course as soon as anyone mentions something, he gets snappy.

Also, one that I am 100% guilty of:

Mr. Stingy With the Charged Items: If you want to lock up some WBL that you are sure will never be used, give this guy a charged magic item. He not only refuses to ever use it unless it is a life-or-death situation, but he also refuses to sell it because it might save the groups collective arses one day. No amount of whining by the DM or other players can convince him otherwise.

Of course the funny thing is, the DM is the most pissed about that because of all the times I have screwed his plans over. DM's tend to forget players have certain items when said items are never used or even mentioned, and very few things beat the look on the DM's face when he thinks he has you cornered, and you suddenly bring up that 1-use Solar-summoning ring he gave your char 2 real-life years ago.

Provengreil
2011-08-26, 03:08 PM
The secret is to not bloody kill things on sight based on race.

i tried that once, played a guy who wouldn't fight anything with a brain unless it tried to hit him first. the DM got so angry that I was trying specifically not to fight his encounters that I ended up against a lot of zombies, golems, and plants.



Mr. Stingy With the Charged Items: If you want to lock up some WBL that you are sure will never be used, give this guy a charged magic item. He not only refuses to ever use it unless it is a life-or-death situation, but he also refuses to sell it because it might save the groups collective arses one day. No amount of whining by the DM or other players can convince him otherwise.

So guilty of this. I never buy scrolls or staffs because I'll never, ever use them. even when I've got a scroll of banishment and a small horde of devils are in front of me, I'll use a crossbow before the scroll. the only exceptions are charges/day, which are basically spell slots which i burn without a problem, and wands, which have so many charges that I'm sure i'll be able to get another before I finish the current one.

137ben
2011-08-26, 04:44 PM
i tried that once, played a guy who wouldn't fight anything with a brain unless it tried to hit him first. the DM got so angry that I was trying specifically not to fight his encounters that I ended up against a lot of zombies, golems, and plants.



So guilty of this. I never buy scrolls or staffs because I'll never, ever use them. even when I've got a scroll of banishment and a small horde of devils are in front of me, I'll use a crossbow before the scroll. the only exceptions are charges/day, which are basically spell slots which i burn without a problem, and wands, which have so many charges that I'm sure i'll be able to get another before I finish the current one.

Me too. I always think "hmm, I don't want to throw away this limited resource when I could use my permanent magic items..."
Of course, eventually I realize that the gold I spent on "permanent" magic items, was not as well spent as I would have hoped, because the "permanent" magic items are inevitably sold and replaced.

horngeek
2011-08-27, 12:29 AM
The Monster
This is the guy that is never, never satisfied with the core races. Or even normal races.

Sharn, Half-Ogre, Illithid, Minotaur, Giant Space Hampster, you name it! They'll play it as long as it's not a human.

We had a guy in our group that kept rolling up Half-ogre barbarians. :smallsigh:

This is probably because he thinks every concept involving them has been done. To. DEATH.

{{I don't mind a cliche, as long as it's done well. I play Good Drow enough to make anything else a blatant case of hypocrisy. Although with me it's less a case of 'REBEL AGAINST EVIL' than 'love the way they look, hatehatehate their culture'. If anyone ever had a game where the Dark Elves, as a race, had a substantial portion that were Good, I'd play in a heartbeat.}}


It is a bit silly for most races, like how it's pretty easy for a Teifling or Half-Drow to be perfectly ordinary folks. As for the Hellbred, their usual alignment and favored class does very little to avert the fact that they look like devils or demons.

Related to my above: or fullblood Drow, even! :smalltongue:

Fantasy Racist

The player who will, when the DM sets up a character who's a member of a normally reviled race in the setting as a respectable part of the community, attack that character, because they're a member of that race, no matter whether it actually makes sense to do so.

No, I've never seen it happen. But it would be annoying.

Except in Order of the Stick, actually. Although those were NPCs...

Captain Six
2011-08-27, 09:53 AM
Players Who Insist on Racial Stereotypes

When they play a race, they make sure to trump up that race's better known "qualities". Their orc is always thicker than a pallet load of bricks, despite a reasonable 15 Int score. Their elves don't have egos, they have EGOS. Their dwarves are personally responsible for the mead and ale industries, and their gnomes are nothing more than little pyromaniacs.

This comes up the more often with dwarves than anything else I've seen. In my games dwarven culture is strongly inspired by the D'ni from Myst, an industrial, scholarly race with immense knowledge on geophysics and extraplanar travel. And a nice side of warrior-poet so they aren't too foreign to their original concept as well. They have a friendly rivalry with elves, the dwarves pursue the scientific truth and the elves pursue the philosophical truth and freely share with each other what they have learned. They enjoy their alcohol but due to racial fortitude and poison resistance they have a very hard time getting drunk. Males grow beards as soon as they start growing hair and having a beard is simply the assumed default, not an insane passion. The idea that a male dwarf will shave off his beard might draw looks, just like a human who has a shaved head, but is seen as rebellious at worst. Naturally the one dwarven PC I've had started yelling at the first dwarven NPC he met for daring to keep his beard trimmed short and neat.

Greenish
2011-08-28, 09:03 PM
If anyone ever had a game where the Dark Elves, as a race, had a substantial portion that were Good, I'd play in a heartbeat.Eberron?


In my games dwarven culture is strongly inspired by the D'ni from Myst, an industrial, scholarly race with immense knowledge on geophysics and extraplanar travel.Do they do a lot of… gate crashing? :smalltongue:

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-28, 09:07 PM
Eberron?

They're pretty major savages there. Just as likely to kill and eat you as talk to you.

Greenish
2011-08-28, 09:35 PM
They're pretty major savages there. Just as likely to kill and eat you as talk to you.Not all of them, or even most, I should say. They don't really have that "always chaotic evil" tag there, at least.

Provengreil
2011-08-29, 09:16 AM
when It comes to races, I've pretty much universally erased the always x alignment tag from anything sentient, unless it's from an aligned plane. since the alignment system is mechanically vague, screwed up in nature, and yet a necessity for so many actual game mechanics, I try to just take it at face value and instead mess with racial preconceptions. Humans can be any alignment, so even if they're a bit dumb, why can't orcs be similarly diverse?

Sipex
2011-08-29, 09:58 AM
That, good sir, is hilarious levels of douchebag.

That is probably the only good Drizzt clone I've ever heard of and probably one that would actually exist in that sort of situation.

Choco
2011-08-29, 10:16 AM
I also usually remove the "usually/always X alignment" clause on just about every race. However, if the players insist on picking a race that is feared, despised, enslaved, etc. in the region the game will be starting in I remind them of that during character creation and make sure they are OK with the difficulties that presents. And on the flipside I don't whine at the DM for singling me out for punishment when I do the same as a player...

And while I'm here:

The Guy That Obviously Doesn't Wanna Be There: Not 20 minutes into the session, this guy is asking if we are almost done, obviously bored, making snide comments, etc. And that is just the first 20 minutes, you still got about 4 hours to go.... Some people have an occasional day like this, others are like this all the time and you wonder why they bother showing up. This guy is also usually:

The Guy With Only One Interest: This guy only ever wants to do one thing in the game, be it fighting, social RP, puzzle solving, whatever. And when that one thing is not being done (because the rest of the group is sick of it and wants to do something different for a change...) he turns into the type mentioned above.

Amphetryon
2011-08-29, 03:08 PM
Has To Be An Exception Man:The DM sells the group on an adventure about a dwarven clan of adventurers, deep under Mount Suhntublo, and everyone says that Core + Completes + RoS is sufficient source material. This guy then immediately wants to be a Hellbred Factotum. Regardless of why a particular Race/Class is disallowed for a given campaign, he's going to fight for his right to use it, by Crom!

Hiro Protagonest
2011-08-29, 03:12 PM
Has To Be An Exception Man:The DM sells the group on an adventure about a dwarven clan of adventurers, deep under Mount Suhntublo, and everyone says that Core + Completes + RoS is sufficient source material. This guy then immediately wants to be a Hellbred Factotum. Regardless of why a particular Race/Class is disallowed for a given campaign, he's going to fight for his right to use it, by Crom!

The fact that you don't include ToB makes me sad. :smallfrown: Crusader was pretty much built for the dwarf! Warblades with Stone Dragon and Iron Heart also fit. And they have a dwarf specific PrC that's like Dwarven Defender but better!

Provengreil
2011-08-29, 06:45 PM
The Guy With Only One Interest: This guy only ever wants to do one thing in the game, be it fighting, social RP, puzzle solving, whatever. And when that one thing is not being done (because the rest of the group is sick of it and wants to do something different for a change...) he turns into the type mentioned above.

Bonus points if the interest isn't even the game but instead the pizza.

Krazzman
2011-08-30, 06:01 AM
As a reaction to the "Mr. nat 20 auto success"-thing I have a question.

We play 3.5 (probably changing to Pathfinder soon) for about 3 years now. And for Critical threats, whe have assumed that it is an automatical hit if you score a threat. After scoring you roll the next d20 to see if you can confirm your roll. Is that an houserule I believed to be printed or is it actually a rule from core (maybe changed in 3.5 and was ruled like that in 3ed)? I ask this because of this thread I have seen other examples.

As for me I contribute to the topic the

"I-can't-believe-you-roll-that-high-DM"
This type of DM can see your rolls but disbelieves what he can see. You might Roll good enough to save your Partymember but cause you were too heroic doing it this DM attacks your not so good stats to let you fail. :smallannoyed:

As an example
I have played a Monster-One-Shot. We were a group of: lvl 1 Goblin Rogue, lvl 1 Goblin Druid, and me the lvl 1 Barbarian Orc. We started with nothing. After robbing a Dwarf we met a adventuring group of heroes that thought we were evil (all three CG) and tried to seal us with a Circle Against Evil. On that whole Session I have had a 14 as lowest roll. And in an crucial moment of saving the rogues live I managed to get 3 Strenghtchecks of 25 (nat 20 + 5). My DM wasn't quite believing me and startet to use other things (I was pulling the rogue up a cliff) like the grounds slightly collapsing and I should use Reflex saves to avoid stuff I can't remember now, but sure as hell I fell and only survived because of a globlinish falling damage reducer...

Volthawk
2011-08-30, 06:04 AM
As a reaction to the "Mr. nat 20 auto success"-thing I have a question.

We play 3.5 (probably changing to Pathfinder soon) for about 3 years now. And for Critical threats, whe have assumed that it is an automatical hit if you score a threat. After scoring you roll the next d20 to see if you can confirm your roll. Is that an houserule I believed to be printed or is it actually a rule from core (maybe changed in 3.5 and was ruled like that in 3ed)? I ask this because of this thread I have seen other examples.


For attacks, a nat 20 automatically hits and threatens a crit, but if your crit range is larger than 20, the parts of the range below 20 still need to hit normally, they don't get an auto-hit. So say if you use a longsword, if you roll a 20 when attacking, you automatically hit and threaten a critical. If you roll a 19, however, your attack has to be enough to hit normally, and if you do, you threaten a crit.

Provengreil
2011-08-30, 09:22 AM
For attacks, a nat 20 automatically hits and threatens a crit, but if your crit range is larger than 20, the parts of the range below 20 still need to hit normally, they don't get an auto-hit. So say if you use a longsword, if you roll a 20 when attacking, you automatically hit and threaten a critical. If you roll a 19, however, your attack has to be enough to hit normally, and if you do, you threaten a crit.

yeah, can you imagine the other way with, say, a disciple of dispater using a scimitar or something?

Krazzman
2011-08-30, 09:25 AM
Just remembering from my first DnD Session.

"The-house-is-surrounded-DM"

Oh lord, you wake up, want to go into your cellar only to be surprised by an antique Tomb of eternal Evil full of Undead. You want to run to the City but as you open your front door: SUPRISE an invading Orc Army. Fleeing through the backdoor? Can't Purpleworms in your garden. Climb out of an window? It got fortificated with traps by kobolds. Ok, over the roof? You should first talk to that Black Dragon on your roof....

"The-I-ignore-your-build-and-give-you-what-I-think-suits-you-DM"
You wanna use that bow? Lulz nope, here take the Greatsword.

"You-were-absent-so-I-give-you-more-info-than-actually-given"(or false info)
No that's a paladin, no knight...

And the "No-you-fail-cause-of-natural-1"

Example:

Ok ok, I admit, It could be fun. But in the first time playing I totally thought it was fun but later I realised it was hilarious. We consisted of 1 Fighter built on Archery, 1 Dwarf Druid, and me the Elven Rogue. We started at level 6 and were send to explore a mine that won't deliver any materials for some decades and all advancing parties had vanished. (+ Skeleton troops attacking the city every evening.) It cost us 2 days to pass the forest full of undeads to get to a lighthouse (2 hours from the mine). In the process of advancing through the mine we got hold on an atrificact medaillion of Lathander (Pelor). Our Fighter was granted to take a dip into sorceror. And the Medaillion split in 3 smaller pieces. From that point on I focused on Archery too, cause I could shoot silvery arrows of light... our fighter became a holy slam attack. A bit into the campaign after really killing loads of different monsters we were captured and brought to another tomb. We escaped + looting. Our loot was: +1 Frost Longsword, +2 Flaming Thunder Greatsword (+1 for us means +1 bonus, special abilitys count as enhancement). We then met other people (I was absent) and fought an Ent and teamed up with an Paladin "Outrider" Purple Knight, and an Wizard. While I had an really descent Hide and Move Silently check of (about +30 at level 8) I constantly rolled an 1 for my first attempt at sneaking and so it failed. We were bombed with more and more bigger and bigger monsters cause our knight (which I adressed as Paladin from the information of the DM and got ranted at for) dealt about 200 dmg per attack (ride by attack, spirited charge and such) and was refused an lance. Instead of outsmarting him, we were mostly on the open field slaying more and more monsters....

Steward
2011-08-30, 03:17 PM
Oh lord, you wake up, want to go into your cellar only to be surprised by an antique Tomb of eternal Evil full of Undead. You want to run to the City but as you open your front door: SUPRISE an invading Orc Army. Fleeing through the backdoor? Can't Purpleworms in your garden. Climb out of an window? It got fortificated with traps by kobolds. Ok, over the roof? You should first talk to that Black Dragon on your roof....


I guess they want to run a 'sealed room mystery' type of adventure but are too shy or lazy to run it by the players first, so they try to enforce it using increasingly arbitrary methods. Bonus points if they earlier tried to argue that this is somehow 'free-form' or even (ugh) sandbox.

Amphetryon
2011-08-30, 03:41 PM
The Wannabe JOAT: Not content with filling a more conventional Jack-Of-All-Trades (JOAT) role, this player designs and plays his character as if he must be the focal point of every action in the game. Scouting ahead? He has to come along, "as a guard." Combat's imminent? CHARGE! Door's trapped? "I'll open it and rely on my saves/HP to save me. The Rogue doesn't have to help." Reading a scroll? He wants to use the Aid Another action on UMD, because heavens forbid there's a die roll or room description in the session that he isn't intimately a part of.

Qwertystop
2011-08-30, 04:57 PM
The Wannabe JOAT: Not content with filling a more conventional Jack-Of-All-Trades (JOAT) role, this player designs and plays his character as if he must be the focal point of every action in the game. Scouting ahead? He has to come along, "as a guard." Combat's imminent? CHARGE! Door's trapped? "I'll open it and rely on my saves/HP to save me. The Rogue doesn't have to help." Reading a scroll? He wants to use the Aid Another action on UMD, because heavens forbid there's a die roll or room description in the session that he isn't intimately a part of.

While you are right on most counts, there's really no reason NOT to Aid Another if there's a chance the main check-maker might fail and you have nothing else to do with the time.

Amphetryon
2011-08-30, 05:01 PM
While you are right on most counts, there's really no reason NOT to Aid Another if there's a chance the main check-maker might fail and you have nothing else to do with the time.

The entire point is that this type of player insists on being involved in every single roll. The fact that you're quibbling over the specifics in the example makes me think I was somehow unclear on that.

Qwertystop
2011-08-30, 05:09 PM
The entire point is that this type of player insists on being involved in every single roll. The fact that you're quibbling over the specifics in the example makes me think I was somehow unclear on that.

No, I understood Sometimes I can just be a bit pedantic. :smallredface:

BlackestOfMages
2011-08-30, 06:07 PM
The All Charachters are mine!!!! guy
This is the guy who has to be invlved in any players descisions about anything. skills, he has to put in. your theme? no, his version of it's better. and he can't just sit there and let you play it. Even worse, if for example, you need the toilet and let him roll any of the dice for a character once, well say goodbye. "just let me finish this encounter with him" is a favorite, as is "you loved chargen, I'll control this guy for a while whilst you wip up someone. maybe that x theme you where thinking of earlier? why did you drop that again?:smallfurious:)

and the source of this
just happened in new M&M group on session 3. Our blastyflyguy missed a session due to ilness, so our "optimised" metamorhp 2 epic buildz guy took over for the session. he even bothered to RP the characters personality as preset. then the other player came back, and The All Charachters are mine!!!! guy didn;t understand why he was having his character back, and after a half-hour of explaining that even though he had 'plans for this guy', it wasn't his character and he souldn;t expect to get it unless he gave up char 1, and the other guy agreed as well.

both he and the blaster eventually agreed to this, so I guess it dosen;t count. we called the session there, however, as me, the DM and our other player where bored by then and didn't feel like picking it up. we'll see if goes better next week :D

big teej
2011-08-30, 07:35 PM
RE: all characters are mine guy


:smallconfused: :smallfurious:

I'd socka guy if he kept trying to play my character.
in a heartbeat




*I keed.... but only ever so slightly.

I mean, I don't let anybody take over my characters, if I need to answer a call of nature, I wait till after my turn and go before it comes back round to me. I miss a session? well I guess I was swallowed by a plothole then huh?


related, someone tried to hijack someone elses' character, I'm liable to toss them outa my group.

and I don't think I"m kidding over that one.

-player returnes from bathroom-
player: okay dude, gimme back my sheet.
Mine: no way man, I'm gonna keep playing him.
me: .... ye be serious? :smallconfused:
player: dude, come on, give it back.
mine: nah man, I've got a plan for where to go with this guy.
me: :smallfurious: :smallfurious: :smallfurious:
-begins angry questioning-

Foeofthelance
2011-08-30, 07:58 PM
Just remembering from my first DnD Session.

"The-house-is-surrounded-DM"

Oh lord, you wake up, want to go into your cellar only to be surprised by an antique Tomb of eternal Evil full of Undead. You want to run to the City but as you open your front door: SUPRISE an invading Orc Army. Fleeing through the backdoor? Can't Purpleworms in your garden. Climb out of an window? It got fortificated with traps by kobolds. Ok, over the roof? You should first talk to that Black Dragon on your roof....



Is that all? Just cut a deal with the dragon to ask it to have the Kobolds dig a tunnel for the Purple Wurms to your basement so that they can snack on the undead while the dragon deals with the orcs. Then you can walk into the city and invite the dragon and kobolds in so that they can loot to their hearts content! :smalltongue: I mean, just because Im the DM Who Expects You To Solve His Convoluted Situation Without Any Clues doesn't mean it is very difficult, now does it?

Nyarai
2011-08-31, 01:10 AM
The Wannabe JOAT: Not content with filling a more conventional Jack-Of-All-Trades (JOAT) role, this player designs and plays his character as if he must be the focal point of every action in the game.

Yeah, I'm dealing with one of these. Right now he's the face/primary damage dealer. The former compels him to diplomance anything we come across, alerting all the enemies to our presence. He also wants to "scout," which in his mind means running forward on his mount and alerting all the enemies to our presence. Did I mention I was the sneak? :smallmad:

Krazzman
2011-08-31, 01:15 AM
Is that all? Just cut a deal with the dragon to ask it to have the Kobolds dig a tunnel for the Purple Wurms to your basement so that they can snack on the undead while the dragon deals with the orcs. Then you can walk into the city and invite the dragon and kobolds in so that they can loot to their hearts content! :smalltongue: I mean, just because Im the DM Who Expects You To Solve His Convoluted Situation Without Any Clues doesn't mean it is very difficult, now does it?

No, we weren't in the house, but we imagined a commoner to live in one near the city...and yes, 1 day to the coast he had an mine full of undeads...the kobolds in the mountain and purpleworms in his garden. The problem was our DM just brought up more/stronger monsters because of our Purpleknight. And ruled that i can't sneak attack with an bow that shoots holy light arrows (I was sneaking 3 Giants) because of their anatomy....WTF? The longer the campaign went, the more riddiculus monsters we faced...it was fun but...yeah he sort of disliked me I think. Rules for Thieves tools breaking, i keep the broken tools and want to get them molded by an blacksmith (we were kinda revered in that city) and he throws me out because I was dressed in black and obviously doing evil with these tools...again WTF? (Holy Symbol of lathander on my glove and so on....

In most other campaigns he would say oh why weren't you going that way, there was treasure....

Another habit that went on his count: "The-I-Gonna-nerf-your-characters-with-more-realistic-rules"
That's the one I disliked most, because it didn't even bring more realism to the game. A fighter jumping 15 feet? unrealistic, gonna nerf that with an dc...+10. The Rogue rolled a 2 on his pick lock check...better check if his tool breaks....yep.

Example:
Ok let's start with his rules for jumping, they were riddiculus. Cause he had a monk with +70 to jump on level 8(?) he pimped the dc to jump over an 10 feet pit by about 10. (even for level 1 chars) Due to that rule we kinda often fell down these pits. You got 8 dmg from falling. The cleric can heal you but first has to make an heal check that your bones are in the right position....

hewhosaysfish
2011-08-31, 06:54 AM
Yeah, I'm dealing with one of these. Right now he's the face/primary damage dealer. The former compels him to diplomance anything we come across, alerting all the enemies to our presence. He also wants to "scout," which in his mind means running forward on his mount and alerting all the enemies to our presence. Did I mention I was the sneak? :smallmad:

So when he charges off "scouting", runs into a legion of mindflayers or something and can't talk them into being his friends... why don't you just hide in a bush until the screaming stops?

Gnoman
2011-08-31, 07:01 AM
This only applies to internet games, but it's incredibly annoying.


Mr. Spelling and Grammar are Beneath Me Guy

This is the player that, under all circumstances, types like someone is holding a gun to his head holding a stopwatch. No matter what, it takes ten times as long to understand him than it does everyone else, because all his actions look like this:


I five fot stp to the lft andhit goblin2 withmysword i roll a 9 if it hits ido 8dammag then i drank apotion.

Amphetryon
2011-08-31, 07:10 AM
This only applies to internet games, but it's incredibly annoying.


Mr. Spelling and Grammar are Beneath Me Guy

This is the player that, under all circumstances, types like someone is holding a gun to his head holding a stopwatch. No matter what, it takes ten times as long to understand him than it does everyone else, because all his actions look like this:


I five fot stp to the lft andhit goblin2 withmysword i roll a 9 if it hits ido 8dammag then i drank apotion.I am slightly ashamed of how quickly I was able to parse that.

Gnoman
2011-08-31, 07:11 AM
To be fair, it's very hard to deliberately mimic.

big teej
2011-08-31, 07:59 AM
I am slightly ashamed of how quickly I was able to parse that.

I wouldn't feel to bad, I didn't have to stop for translation :smalleek:



To be fair, it's very hard to deliberately mimic.

ndeed it iz, so hrd n fact I don tink I can mimic it.

which is admittedly rather fascinating.... given how often I am exposed to such horrors, and my tendencies as an emulator*

*I tend to mimic speech patterns I am exposed to, for example, if I were to start hanging out with someone with a heavy english accent, I would start to develop one, up to a point

Choco
2011-08-31, 08:26 AM
So when he charges off "scouting", runs into a legion of mindflayers or something and can't talk them into being his friends... why don't you just hide in a bush until the screaming stops?

Simple, because said mind flayers will know all about the other PC's once they extract the "scout's" brain (if there is one). They would be better off wandering in some random direction until they find a plot hook :smalltongue:.

In all seriousness though, that is usually what I prefer to do. In my case though it is always someone being Chaotic Stupid ("I'm only doing what my character would do!") and ignoring all the warnings, and less of an "I want/can do everything myself" situation. Though in one case we were stuck with a player/PC like this for a while because she was the DM's pet player. As such, even if we didn't go help her she always came out on top via DM fiat. That game got a lot better after she (voluntarily!) left...

Sipex
2011-08-31, 08:30 AM
The entire point is that this type of player insists on being involved in every single roll. The fact that you're quibbling over the specifics in the example makes me think I was somehow unclear on that.

Oh man, I had a player like this. The others started getting really really pissed at her because she'd be taking the limelight from them. Especially when there was obviously another player who was better at the task.

Knaight
2011-08-31, 09:24 AM
Mr. Spelling and Grammar are Beneath Me Guy

This is the player that, under all circumstances, types like someone is holding a gun to his head holding a stopwatch. No matter what, it takes ten times as long to understand him than it does everyone else, because all his actions look like this:


I five fot stp to the lft andhit goblin2 withmysword i roll a 9 if it hits ido 8dammag then i drank apotion.

This is one of the single most obnoxious things you have to deal with if you play games over IRC with varying people.

Iceforge
2011-08-31, 11:17 AM
which is admittedly rather fascinating.... given how often I am exposed to such horrors, and my tendencies as an emulator*

*I tend to mimic speech patterns I am exposed to, for example, if I were to start hanging out with someone with a heavy english accent, I would start to develop one, up to a point

Is it involuntarily that you do so? I mean, you don't even think about it, you just can't help it from happening?

I got that problem, which makes me seem very demeaning in some circumstances, some think I am trying to make fun of them, but I simply can't help it

Nyarai
2011-08-31, 11:30 AM
So when he charges off "scouting", runs into a legion of mindflayers or something and can't talk them into being his friends... why don't you just hide in a bush until the screaming stops?

Because he's my friend, for better or for worse. That and part B of his "charge off into the sunset" plan is "charge right back to the party really fast." Plus, he has a mount, which I don't think can be affected by Mind Blast. Though he did nearly get carried off into the sunset by a flying chupacabra (it rolled like a 2 to grapple him), which probably almost taught him his lesson. :smallsigh:

My plan for next session is to remind him how he nearly died horribly. Then, if he insists, I will hide the party (which includes a crapton of NPCs who shipwrecked with us) in a bush and wait for the screams to stop, the baddies to stop looking for us, and him to roll a new, less obnoxious character.

Hawkfrost000
2011-09-04, 02:09 AM
Good to see a dry spell with this thread.

Unfortunately i have to add one:

Mr. Won't Discuss his Houserules

My latest DM brought in a Houserule for the use of a 2E crit table. Normally i would have no problem with this. But he did so with No Crit Confirm now my build was a Two-Weapon Fighting Druid, so i was kind of handicapping myself, i could have brought the house down by out Skillmonkeying out Casting and out Fighting the rest of them. But i didn't.

Guess who this Houserule hurts most, Me. As a two weapon fighter with an optimised tripping animal companion will be making the most rolls on the table and stabbing my allies in the face or breaking my ankles or getting sand in my eyes the most.

I bring up the fact that this hurts melee combatants more than others (and they are already sub par) and is frankly silly.

He ignores me, when i bring it up again he calls it complaining and threatens to sic a White Dragon on me. He claimed a young white dragon would be a decent match for us (probably would have), but i felt pretty sure that all of its attacks would be focused on one player... I would probably not survive.

Needless to say i quit.

According to the DM and one other Douchebag it was a "game soured by an inexperienced player" and i was the kind of player that "was never satisfied" and it was all probaby for the best.

big teej
2011-09-04, 02:49 AM
Is it involuntarily that you do so? I mean, you don't even think about it, you just can't help it from happening?

I got that problem, which makes me seem very demeaning in some circumstances, some think I am trying to make fun of them, but I simply can't help it

pretty much....


"aye" worked it's way into my vocabulary by sheer dent of amount of fiction I read that uses the word.

along with things like "mayhap"

thankfully, it depends greatly on amount of exposure. if I were to say, begin interacting with a Brit or an Aussie on a regular basis*, I would likely begin to emulate their speech patterns to some degree within a few weeks


*a regular basis being at least an hour or so a day (say a roommate or suitemate)

another great example, I love listening to Jerry Clower, he's a funny man. but it doesn't take more than a few stories of his and my southern drawl becomes.... extremely pronounced.

now, thankfully, there are some accents that I can't seem to work my vocals around (irish/scottish, german)

but I imagine that's only due to lack of exposure.

but I digress... I've begun to ramble.


but as a last example, from the moment I typed out the jerry clower comment, I've had to consciously restrain myself from typing in an imitation of his mannerisms.

Traab
2011-09-04, 07:45 AM
pretty much....


"aye" worked it's way into my vocabulary by sheer dent of amount of fiction I read that uses the word.

along with things like "mayhap"

thankfully, it depends greatly on amount of exposure. if I were to say, begin interacting with a Brit or an Aussie on a regular basis*, I would likely begin to emulate their speech patterns to some degree within a few weeks


*a regular basis being at least an hour or so a day (say a roommate or suitemate)

another great example, I love listening to Jerry Clower, he's a funny man. but it doesn't take more than a few stories of his and my southern drawl becomes.... extremely pronounced.

now, thankfully, there are some accents that I can't seem to work my vocals around (irish/scottish, german)

but I imagine that's only due to lack of exposure.

but I digress... I've begun to ramble.


but as a last example, from the moment I typed out the jerry clower comment, I've had to consciously restrain myself from typing in an imitation of his mannerisms.

Ive read too much harry potter fanfic, so now I actually say things like git and bloody hell. I also have that problem of my accent switching to match the person im listening too. I only wish that carried over into speaking foreign languages. I spent a full year listening to spanish soap operas designed to teach the language in my college course and barely picked up anything. Basically, I learned enough to sort of figure out the gist of what was being said, but not the specifics. And I couldnt speak a word of it.

Knaight
2011-09-04, 02:45 PM
I only wish that carried over into speaking foreign languages. I spent a full year listening to spanish soap operas designed to teach the language in my college course and barely picked up anything. Basically, I learned enough to sort of figure out the gist of what was being said, but not the specifics. And I couldnt speak a word of it.

Destinos is a completely and utterly worthless educational tool. Extras does a much better job.

Traab
2011-09-04, 08:31 PM
Destinos is a completely and utterly worthless educational tool. Extras does a much better job.

Was that the name of it? It was about a guy trying to track down a relative in spain. I think he got a letter, or found an old one, and tried to track him down. Like I said, I couldnt follow the details, just the broad strokes. Also, this was 9 years ago.

Knaight
2011-09-05, 12:07 PM
Was that the name of it? It was about a guy trying to track down a relative in spain. I think he got a letter, or found an old one, and tried to track him down. Like I said, I couldnt follow the details, just the broad strokes. Also, this was 9 years ago.

Yeah, this is certainly Destinos, though it got dumber and worse as it went on.

Krazzman
2011-09-07, 07:52 AM
I remembered a habit that destroyed my fun utterly and made me go home.

I would describe it as the: "No-for-you-I-will-roll"


Ok, my story begins in Character generation on a early sunday morning as we say "Oh let's play a oneshot". Ok, after fix creation of 1 Level 2 LN? Fighter, me a level 2 LE Cleric of Velsharoon (a fun guy to stay with, but sees the staying dead as a waste if they are not properly handed) who fights with a Scythe and a NE Halfling Rogue.

We stumble into a dungeon in a city and after a few rooms, we come upon a riddle/puzzle thing to open a door. The others are a bit off, checking the rooms for information. (Meanwhile it was about 3 pm, started 10 am) And my character solved the puzzle and yells "I've got it" and get's attacked by an Ghoul. Ok, he knew about me, I were aware of him and said ok, in my Phase i want to turn him. DM rolls his initiative, I want to roll mine: "first sentence: no I roll for you...oh the ghoul goes first", a bit irritaded (we never handled it this way) i went with it thinking probably won't be that strong. It hits against my 18 AC, and I shall do a Fort Check against the Paralyzing though of the slam. I rolled an 19 and thought phew, thats totally my ghoul now and rolled the dice for my turn attempt to enslave that thing until my dm says: "no, I roll for you....oh you fail by one." He then describes how my character is left alone, while the other 2 are outside and huddle up for their information and in 4 rounds the ghoul get's me eaten...
At this point I stood up, packed my stuff and leaved with a smile and said "yeah now I can play some more WoW at home..." and left.

LansXero
2011-09-07, 04:18 PM
I remembered a habit that destroyed my fun utterly and made me go home.
I would describe it as the: "No-for-you-I-will-roll"


You shouldve at least said "NO, I ROLL FOR ME" but... seriously, what was up with that guy? Thats like... what was the point of you being there then? O_O

Traab
2011-09-07, 04:59 PM
I remembered a habit that destroyed my fun utterly and made me go home.

I would describe it as the: "No-for-you-I-will-roll"


Ok, my story begins in Character generation on a early sunday morning as we say "Oh let's play a oneshot". Ok, after fix creation of 1 Level 2 LN? Fighter, me a level 2 LE Cleric of Velsharoon (a fun guy to stay with, but sees the staying dead as a waste if they are not properly handed) who fights with a Scythe and a NE Halfling Rogue.

We stumble into a dungeon in a city and after a few rooms, we come upon a riddle/puzzle thing to open a door. The others are a bit off, checking the rooms for information. (Meanwhile it was about 3 pm, started 10 am) And my character solved the puzzle and yells "I've got it" and get's attacked by an Ghoul. Ok, he knew about me, I were aware of him and said ok, in my Phase i want to turn him. DM rolls his initiative, I want to roll mine: "first sentence: no I roll for you...oh the ghoul goes first", a bit irritaded (we never handled it this way) i went with it thinking probably won't be that strong. It hits against my 18 AC, and I shall do a Fort Check against the Paralyzing though of the slam. I rolled an 19 and thought phew, thats totally my ghoul now and rolled the dice for my turn attempt to enslave that thing until my dm says: "no, I roll for you....oh you fail by one." He then describes how my character is left alone, while the other 2 are outside and huddle up for their information and in 4 rounds the ghoul get's me eaten...
At this point I stood up, packed my stuff and leaved with a smile and said "yeah now I can play some more WoW at home..." and left.

Did he get this evil echoing voice and yell, "Your ROLL is MINE!"

dps
2011-09-07, 06:50 PM
Did he get this evil echoing voice and yell, "Your ROLL is MINE!"

Or "All your roll belong to us!"?

BlackestOfMages
2011-09-07, 07:14 PM
"all your roll is belong to us" - gods, get it right :smalltongue:

sounds like your dm had it out for you, which is odd in a 1 shot...

Sipex
2011-09-08, 11:35 AM
Uhm...

"All your roll ARE belong to us"

...

just sayin'

Overlord Rion
2011-09-08, 12:03 PM
Regardless, that habit is completely unacceptable.

Keinnicht
2011-09-08, 05:49 PM
Inability to Improvise DM

Is unable to make up anything on the spot, leading to the game either degenerating into absurdly blatant railroading, or the rest of the session just turning into a series of random encounters.

Inability to Do What's Planned Player

Is unable to resist any opportunity to screw up the DM's plans. For instance, when standing in front of the Dungeon of Fabulous Treasure and Also Doom, this guy is the guy who decides to ignore it and go back to town.

To be fair, I sometimes do the latter in response to the former - I'll start screwing up the really, really blatant railroading attempts, just because I despise railroading.

The DM Who is Obviously Fudging

Especially if not in the players favor - your attempts to charm or dominate any NPC except for random bartenders NEVER work, for some reason any important NPC has infinite health, the BBEG miraculously survives and escapes no matter what horrific injury he sustains that should kill him, etc.


By the way, I get fudging the BBEG's ability to survive a little. But on the other hand, when you just coup de graced him for 100 damage and the DM's description before that made him sound grievously injured already...a little bothersome.

Ashram
2011-09-08, 06:02 PM
Did he get this evil echoing voice and yell, "Your ROLL is MINE!"

I love how everyone missed the Mortal Kombat joke. ;D

Traab
2011-09-08, 07:53 PM
I love how everyone missed the Mortal Kombat joke. ;D

Heh, me too. :p I might have actually allowed the dm to roll for me once if he was able to deliver that line properly, and with a straight face.

Krazzman
2011-09-09, 01:13 AM
No, first I was confused, which lead to a bit irritated and then...I left.

Normally he was a fun guy to be with. But somehow his Campaigns were one-shots. We mastered maybe the first Plothook and then lost the interest to play. Additionally he raised the DC for specific things like Jump and so on, ignored class abilities. And everytime we get out of the dungeon (even when we said we searched the whole place) he said you so missed that room cause the search DC couldn't even be reached with a nat 20 from our skillmonkey rogue (18 INT 18 Dex).


One time I played an Elan Psionic. He railroaded our start to jump into the sea, get lost and start on a beach near a Desert. We lost some stuff (a "skate"-board for example) and we succumbed due to heat (I gave food and drink to the others and invested points to not eat or drink...and then were resqued by Winged Elves. After that we had to go into a dungeon and the BBEG mind controlled everyone. Except me after I stated that I'm Immune to that. Same BBEG countered my Mind Blasts 3 times. So I began to shoot him with my Crossbow (-1 modifier for hitting him).

He was normally a quite good player/dm but he somehow had a few bad habits that only come from time to time...like he wants to play an Ape race in a sort of serious themed campaign.


Enough ranted...

Have a nice day,
Krazzman

Krazzman
2011-09-21, 08:30 AM
Got another one:

The-it's-totally-overpowered-but-allows-T1-Classes-DM:

Introduce Soulknife? Lulz OP! Duskblade? OP! Tome of Battle? The Unbalanced Book of Melee OP-ness!

Everything apart from Core and some Splatbooks is rendered totally OP and while the Druid Shapeshifts into a bird and shoots laz0rbeamz from a unreachable place, the "OP-Class" is nearly stopped at full cost.
The Monk is also considered a pretty good class for Optimization...

Have a nice Day,
Krazzman

Traab
2011-09-21, 10:15 AM
The: "Ill listen to what you have to say, then ignore it anyways" DM

Basically, this is the, "my way or the highway" dm, except he wastes your time by pretending to care about your opinion, then doing things his way anyways. He will let you stack up reason after reason why your idea/class/tactic/whatever, should be allowed, give every indication that he is listening, then always, ALWAYS say, "Nope, we are doing it my way" That makes him even worse than the highway dm, as at least he doesnt let you waste your time fruitlessly trying to change his mind.

MlleRouge
2011-09-21, 10:48 AM
He will let you stack up reason after reason why your idea/class/tactic/whatever, should be allowed, give every indication that he is listening, then always, ALWAYS say, "Nope, we are doing it my way"


Oh yes, these.

They're even worse when they won't explain their ruling. They just smile at you and politely tell you to deal with it.

big teej
2011-09-21, 12:01 PM
The: "Ill listen to what you have to say, then ignore it anyways" DM

Basically, this is the, "my way or the highway" dm, except he wastes your time by pretending to care about your opinion, then doing things his way anyways. He will let you stack up reason after reason why your idea/class/tactic/whatever, should be allowed, give every indication that he is listening, then always, ALWAYS say, "Nope, we are doing it my way" That makes him even worse than the highway dm, as at least he doesnt let you waste your time fruitlessly trying to change his mind.

-raises hand guitily-

this is so totally me, with one slight caveat.

most of the time, if I'm not going to allow something, I'm up front about it so you don't waste your time.

but IF you insist on making your case, I'll give you a fair listen, after warning you that you might not change my mind.


I've had ideas, once explained and justified to me, get through to the table, and I've had ideas that I shot down during their persuasion.


but I imagine I still qualify, because I am a very big "I'm dming, and the world works as I say" guy.

dunno what other position you can really have as a DM.

Sipex
2011-09-21, 12:03 PM
Don't worry, we're all guilty of at LEAST one thing here.

At LEAST.

big teej
2011-09-21, 02:35 PM
Don't worry, we're all guilty of at LEAST one thing here.

At LEAST.

oh I know... but if you see me admit to something, I've got it BAAAAAAAAD :smalltongue:

Traab
2011-09-21, 02:47 PM
-raises hand guitily-

this is so totally me, with one slight caveat.

most of the time, if I'm not going to allow something, I'm up front about it so you don't waste your time.

but IF you insist on making your case, I'll give you a fair listen, after warning you that you might not change my mind.


I've had ideas, once explained and justified to me, get through to the table, and I've had ideas that I shot down during their persuasion.


but I imagine I still qualify, because I am a very big "I'm dming, and the world works as I say" guy.

dunno what other position you can really have as a DM.

Then that is nothing like you! This guy has no intention of changing his mind, you could come up with 100 excellent reasons why you are right and the dm is wrong to stop you and it wouldnt matter. As soon as you are done, he will say, "My statement stands" and the game goes on. He wont tell you ahead of time that you probably wont change his mind, and you never will, he will let you waste everyones time arguing when you might as well be arguing with his pet fish, it has the same effect on the outcome.

big teej
2011-09-21, 06:14 PM
Then that is nothing like you! This guy has no intention of changing his mind, you could come up with 100 excellent reasons why you are right and the dm is wrong to stop you and it wouldnt matter. As soon as you are done, he will say, "My statement stands" and the game goes on. He wont tell you ahead of time that you probably wont change his mind, and you never will, he will let you waste everyones time arguing when you might as well be arguing with his pet fish, it has the same effect on the outcome.

true enough... I don't do that...


although there are 1 or 2 things that I flat out state "no, never, don't care what your argument is"

like the dragon shaman.... hate that thing.
or clerics of a cause
or paladin variants....

ryu
2011-09-21, 06:26 PM
Pi equaling four and all the dead catgirls not aloud too? I love the rules for how hilarious they are sometimes.

Hiro Protagonest
2011-09-21, 06:45 PM
or clerics of a cause
or paladin variants....

:insert rage here:

kaomera
2011-09-21, 07:44 PM
The: "Ill listen to what you have to say, then ignore it anyways" DM
I've had to deal with more or less the opposite of this, in a player who would routinely find points to argue, but the arguments he provided where never any good. Often they really didn't make sense, or just had nothing to do with the matter at hand. To make things worse, the other players got upset when I started cutting him off before he could say his peace...

Kaun
2011-09-21, 07:58 PM
I've had to deal with more or less the opposite of this, in a player who would routinely find points to argue, but the arguments he provided where never any good. Often they really didn't make sense, or just had nothing to do with the matter at hand. To make things worse, the other players got upset when I started cutting him off before he could say his peace...

Tell him he has 2 mins to state his case and if it cant be resolved in the time it has to wait till out of game. Tell him this is in the interest of keeping the game moving.

That way you are giving him a chance to say his bit with out having to waste 20 mins listening to it.

That or let him do what he wants and have it fail. Nothing like a brick to the face to teach you to stop smaking your head against a wall.

daemonaetea
2011-09-21, 09:18 PM
The Wannabe JOAT: Not content with filling a more conventional Jack-Of-All-Trades (JOAT) role, this player designs and plays his character as if he must be the focal point of every action in the game. Scouting ahead? He has to come along, "as a guard." Combat's imminent? CHARGE! Door's trapped? "I'll open it and rely on my saves/HP to save me. The Rogue doesn't have to help." Reading a scroll? He wants to use the Aid Another action on UMD, because heavens forbid there's a die roll or room description in the session that he isn't intimately a part of.

I gotta admit, I sometimes find myself doing this. I didn't design my character this way, but as the game has gone on he's developed into an extremely enthusiastic and not terribly smart half-elven sorcerer. I have been trying to dial it down lately, though. At least, I think I catch myself more often.

For instance, my role is damage in combat, and comedy relief most of the rest of the time. I try to keep myself to that. When diplomacy breaks out, I let the bard handle it, and try to restrain myself from jumping into the negotiations. When scouting is needed, I let the druid handle it, and don't send my familiar to butt in on her work. When we encounter undead, I don't start blasting wildly, but instead let the cleric do his thing. And in general planning, I try not to argue for my own plans all the time. And in spell choice, I try to only take things that help fill out holes in the party, or stuff that can help the others, rather than replicating the abilities of other party mates and blasting them non-stop.

I'm not trying to be annoying, I'm really not, so I kinda understand your player. I'm just super enthusiastic about the game, and always seem to be bursting with ideas. However, I remind myself that the others should be having fun too, and they can't if I always try to hog the glory.

From: a player trying to be less annoying.

kaomera
2011-09-21, 09:26 PM
That or let him do what he wants and have it fail. Nothing like a brick to the face to teach you to stop smaking your head against a wall.
You're overestimating how much sense his arguments made. He twice started arguing about what his character from a different game could do, if he was in a situation pretty much entirely dissimilar to the one the PCs where currently in. Like: "Oh, my psionist could easilly climb over the wall and open the door from the other side" when the PCs where looking for a secret compartment in an enclosed underground chamber. One of those times he interrupted another players' turn to do so, rattling off all the bonuses his guy got against dragons, while the group was fighting a bunch of goblins...

The worst thing he did, IMO, was when the PCs where arriving at a city and I started to describe a (secular) carnival that was going on, and he started in with all sorts of stuff about religions from some other setting(s) and basically tried to argue that there wasn't actually a carnival going on. I had to convince the other players that was what he was arguing (they kept insisting that he had to be arguing something else because that made no sense, and to let him finish) before they'd back me up in telling him to let off with it.

Eventually I kicked him from the group (I probably gave him more chances than I should have). Two of the other players got really upset and said I was being unfair. I pointed out that allowing him to stay in the group was unfair to me and the rest of the PCs and that I wouldn't continue to DM if he stayed. They said that was unfair too, so I told them "Great, now you get to decide which unfair thing happens!"

I actually feel kind of bad for the guy, but I really didn't want to deal with it. I was more annoyed with the rest of the group, I know they just didn't want to be mean to him (I didn't really either), but I really think part of his problem was that he just got away with it too much because no-one ever wanted to say anything.

Sith_Happens
2011-09-24, 04:58 AM
Here's one I've heard stories about and seen in action once whilst spectating a group:

The Kills-Not-Bans DM:

So you come up with your character idea, run it by this DM, he says "Sure, go ahead." So you roll your stats, fill out your character sheet, etc., etc., and run the finished character by the DM to make sure everything's cool. He says it is. Then you get into the session, and BOOM, a dragon/wizard/lightning bolt/whatever immediately kills you, and only you, twelve kinds of dead.

DM: "Roll a new character."

Amphetryon
2011-09-24, 06:41 AM
Here's one I've heard stories about and seen in action once whilst spectating a group:

The Kills-Not-Bans DM:

So you come up with your character idea, run it by this DM, he says "Sure, go ahead." So you roll your stats, fill out your character sheet, etc., etc., and run the finished character by the DM to make sure everything's cool. He says it is. Then you get into the session, and BOOM, a dragon/wizard/lightning bolt/whatever immediately kills you, and only you, twelve kinds of dead.

DM: "Roll a new character."To be fair, I've had that happen as a result of rolling in the open, rather than an anti-character (or anti-player) bias. New player's PC was introduced to the group, they bedded down without adequate preparations against an invisible foe, and one of them is targeted with an arrow to the face, on a confirmed critical hit, 3 points off max damage at level 3. The unfortunate victim? The brand new character, who had essentially said 'hello' and laid out his sleeping mat for the night.

big teej
2011-09-24, 01:07 PM
:insert rage here:

for or against? :smallconfused:


To be fair, I've had that happen as a result of rolling in the open, rather than an anti-character (or anti-player) bias. New player's PC was introduced to the group, they bedded down without adequate preparations against an invisible foe, and one of them is targeted with an arrow to the face, on a confirmed critical hit, 3 points off max damage at level 3. The unfortunate victim? The brand new character, who had essentially said 'hello' and laid out his sleeping mat for the night.

I very nearly had a similar experience.

I had slain two of our 3 rangers the session before, so they rerolled as a gnome cleric and a gnome bard.

the introductory adventure was for the two of them to be fighting off a horde of goblins from atop a overturned cart and the party comes upon this and rescues them.

there were 2 PCs and their 2 badger mounts on top of the cart, so I'd roll a d4 to pick who got hit. the bard was designated as "2"

kept rolling 2s, kept rolling 16-20s nearly killed the guy before the party drew enough attention away from them.


hardly my fault, my players know I never ever ever ever ever fudge the dice. but still :smalltongue:

Hiro Protagonest
2011-09-24, 01:19 PM
for or against? :smallconfused:

No paladins of freedom! Or base class versions of blackguard! Or clerics of honor! Or clerics of adventure! Or clerics of war! :smallfrown:

Max Zoren
2011-10-31, 08:05 PM
The phone addict

Holds things up texting & playing with his phone every 30 seconds, gets really annoying when he starts every turn by asking what is going on as he has not paid any attention since his last turn.

Porn Boy

Same as phone addict except half the time it's adult pics or videos.

The annoying smoker

Insists on taking a smoke break RIGHT NOW even if it's in the middle of a combat/negotiation etc. 3 smokers in the group he is the only one that's a problem.

From my other group:

The absentee GM

7.55pm everyone is there apart from the GM
8.00pm game should have started
8.30pm we phone GM, he says he cannot make it, no explanation why or why he didn't let us know.

Once was annoying, after him not showing up 3 times and being over an hour late twice in 8 weeks we kicked him out.

Jay R
2011-10-31, 08:28 PM
The: "Ill listen to what you have to say, then ignore it anyways" DM

Sometimes (not always) there is a good reason for this that you cannot know.

In my second adventure, we discovered a basilisk - far stronger than the party of first to third levels could handle, behind bars that a person could slip through, guarding treasure. We held up mirrors; we tried illusions, and to each one, the DM responded, "He ignores it." He clearly didn't want anything to work, and we finally gave up, complaining that the DM was being unfair and arbitrary.

A month or two later we discussed that dungeon with another party, who said, "Is that blind basilisk still there?"

They had used a Blindness spell on him. The DM, quite correctly, told us that the basilisk never looked at a mirror or a visual illusion. We were so convinced that he was being unfair that we never processed the crucial clue.

Steward
2011-10-31, 08:34 PM
I think that poster wasn't referring to when a monster ignores what the characters say/do, but when a DM makes a decision, solicits suggestions and ideas from the players, and then simply puts his foot down without compromising with or even addressing the players' arguments. The former is pretty common in good and bad games; the latter is generally pretty frustrating and should be used sparingly at best. (If you want to play by "What the DM says, goes" with no dissent/disagreements rules, that's fine, but don't try to pretend that it's also a democratic or consensus-building approach at the same time).

big teej
2011-11-01, 12:58 AM
No paladins of freedom! Or base class versions of blackguard! Or clerics of honor! Or clerics of adventure! Or clerics of war! :smallfrown:

aye!

harrumph! harrumph!

preach it!


..... I feel like I've been saying that alot lately... :smallconfused:

The Boz
2011-11-01, 08:08 AM
{scrubbed}

Seriously now, that is the kind of player who ALWAYS sees EVERY clue as OMGRAILROADING, and will always try to get drunk in the inn rather than investigate the undead sightings in the graveyard ("I'm Chaotic Good, I can randomly not care about anything!").
Dude. Go play Grand Theft Auto or something. Just avoid the missions, they're railroading.

Traab
2011-11-01, 09:05 AM
{scrubbed}


Seriously now, that is the kind of player who ALWAYS sees EVERY clue as OMGRAILROADING, and will always try to get drunk in the inn rather than investigate the undead sightings in the graveyard ("I'm Chaotic Good, I can randomly not care about anything!").
Dude. Go play Grand Theft Auto or something. Just avoid the missions, they're railroading.

Heh, sounds a bit like that story we read awhile back about how the players absolutely REFUSE to do anything the npcs ask. They go out of their way to do the opposite in fact. From being offered refuge in an oasis so they can rest and resupply. Their only request? Dont despoil the place. So what do they do? They sexually harass the GODDESS that guided them there, stole everything that wasnt nailed down, slaughtered all the guards, then burned whatever was left. Holy crap! Plot hook does not equal rails.

NOhara24
2011-11-01, 09:31 AM
The "Competitive" player.

Now, I can understand that a little healthy competition and some gloating between players can be fun. "You did 92 damage? Off a MONK build?" sort of thing. But we have this one player...

He broadcasts EVERY attack roll. "Is his AC higher than 38?" Come on man, after a turn or so, we know the monster's AC by process of elimination. No one cares how high you roll. It's just annoying.

He constantly gloats how strong his animal companion is. "My wolf has 115 HP!" Yeah, he has 115 HP because the DM didn't require you to reset his level when you upgraded from a wolf to a dire wolf...

He always says how he can do something as good, or better than someone else. "Oh, I can heal just as good as the cleric. In case she wants to focus on DPS or something." No. Just no.

Always trying to assert his supremacy in battle "Oh, the Monk did 92 damage. Did you see how much damage I did? I mean, it was split between me and my animal companion, but still." You're a Druid. No one cares. You hit the easy button and are acting like it's a big deal when you turn into a big cat and use their ability to pounce.

Jay R
2011-11-01, 10:25 AM
I think that poster wasn't referring to when a monster ignores what the characters say/do, but when a DM makes a decision, solicits suggestions and ideas from the players, and then simply puts his foot down without compromising with or even addressing the players' arguments.

Yup. So was I - or at least, that's what it looked like to us. It appeared that the DM was simply putting his foot down without compromising with or even addressing our arguments.

But it turns out that the DM wasn't refusing to address our arguments - he knew something we didn't, that made our arguments incorrect.

Trekkin
2011-11-01, 10:39 AM
The DM who requires you have ESP

This one's a three-parter:

1. Declare that all material must be justified on a case-by-case basis before play, and all characters must have a detailed backstory.
2. Be totally unreachable outside of session time to adjudicate those cases
3. Not reveal why specifically, when characters are presented for your inspection, they are discarded with a cursory glance because "it doesn't work for what I'm trying to do".

Singly, each ranges from vaguely puzzling to irksome. In combination, they form a trifecta of awful that achieves truly epic proportions when added to 4:

4. Impose a blanket ban on characters at all similar to past ones.

So, to recap, you spend hours making characters and are then forced to have the DM rifle through this session's sheaf, deciding which of them exist with no detectable rhyme or reason.

Traab
2011-11-01, 10:54 AM
Its got a 5th part at least.

5th - Has a single method in mind to bypass all traps, obstacles, and encounters in his dungeon, all other ideas are canceled before they start or doomed to failure by dm fiat. As an example. You are stuck in a locked room of a ruin, water is gushing up through a hole in the floor, and the water level is rising rapidly. Everyone has at least one idea on how to stop the water or escape, every idea is shot down. The entire team drowns and dies and he says, "Well geez, all you had to do was roll that boulder in the corner of the room over the hole." It doesnt matter that according to the rules the players ideas would have worked, it wasnt what the dm had in mind, therefore no.

Winds
2011-11-01, 09:26 PM
I was guilty of part 5 my first time or two. That's the first lesson...PCs are not EVER predictable.




Rules lawyering, campaign breaking and diametrically opposed alignment to the party..

A campaign breaker is bad. A rules lawyer is annoying. But when the guy that basically taught you the game is a player, and designs a diplomancer with the express intention of screwing up your game, bad things happen. Particularly when he indicated he was going to make a healer but brought an NE spymaster. He can heal, but mostly he gloats about how no one can resist his character's diplomacy checks and tries to kill enemies I hadn't planned on them even noticing. For added fun, as a spymaster he can keep his evil acts hidden from the mostly Good party.

Trekkin
2011-11-04, 12:08 AM
They Who Must Be Relevant

I've only ever seen this a few times, and they were all benign. In effect, it's a form of extreme confidence in a character's abilities, but taken a step further to reach the belief that their character cannot fail except by concentrated, specific effort by the DM to make them fail. In effect, they have two "modes": lording it over everyone they can find regarding their specific traits and how they make them best suited to solve every obstacle encountered by the party, and sulkily scheming to regain the ability to do that in the face of DM-based oppression. They only pay attention to the rest of the world insofar as they can provide either an exhibit of their strengths or an audience for such.

This is exceptionally draining when such characters are built as the face (which is usually the case), at which point any other character even speaking is clearly trying to subvert their authority and hurt the party. If, by some horrible scheme of the DM to render them irrelevant, they lack the ability possessed by another character to speak to a given entity, they'll "assume that guy's translating" and proceed as normal, because the very idea of another player doing anything other than supporting their efforts is ludicrous. :smallfurious:

BlackestOfMages
2011-11-04, 05:41 AM
The Oh it's OK, someone in the party has that skill guy

so, the name here's a little desceptive but I wasn't sure what to call it. Basically, this is that player that assumes things like skills are shared between the party, and everyone else can use their skills. Often an extention or part of Mr Has to be relevant or mr me first.

so, you meet someone speaking a language that you don't, but oh it's OK, bob speaks that language so the conversation is fine, even though Bob isn't arround at the moment

or your in the middle of a fight and you want to examine a rock. you have no ranks in knowledge (whatever is relevant to that specific rock), but Oh it's OK, because bob does so I'll ask him somehow even as he's getting mobbed by orcs.

or when he's leading the party thanks to his high hitdice and finds a trap, oh it's OK, I'll spot and disarm it because Bob can do that, despite the fact you inisted on running ahead of the party

Oft times incites the feeling they should be hit with something very, very heavy because oh it's OK, bob could have survived that, but the player I know who fits this tends to be the person with the highest hit dice in the group

thankfully, they normally only need telling once per session that all the characters are not one homogeonus blob.

Choco
2011-11-04, 08:32 AM
Sometimes (not always) there is a good reason for this that you cannot know.

In my second adventure, we discovered a basilisk - far stronger than the party of first to third levels could handle, behind bars that a person could slip through, guarding treasure. We held up mirrors; we tried illusions, and to each one, the DM responded, "He ignores it." He clearly didn't want anything to work, and we finally gave up, complaining that the DM was being unfair and arbitrary.

A month or two later we discussed that dungeon with another party, who said, "Is that blind basilisk still there?"

They had used a Blindness spell on him. The DM, quite correctly, told us that the basilisk never looked at a mirror or a visual illusion. We were so convinced that he was being unfair that we never processed the crucial clue.

In that vein...

Players who, despite having played with you for years and knowing that you are always fair and there is always a method to your madness, still lose their cool when something like the above happens. It's OK the first few times, maybe they just had bad experiences in their previous groups or something, but after the 3rd year together and they still do this at least once each month, despite each time finding out later that everything was in fact as it should be, you kinda start wondering why you keep inviting them back...

Kymme
2011-11-23, 09:48 PM
The RPG Veteran
In the first group of people i ever gamed with (i'm on my second group now:smallredface:), there is this guy in his thirties. He has been playing for more than 20 years, in almost every roleplaying game imaginable, for what i've seen, he is a good role player (but oddly, he always plays characters with no names and mystery backgrounds:smallconfused:) He's a nice guy out of game, but in, he is a total Richard. When he plays, he always withholds any vital plot info and treats all the other players like crap, as in:
Making the other party members do all the work, whilst watching from the sidlines
Mostly standing in the back for like the first 3 rounds of combat, then ending it with a super powerful spell
Always hating on any paladins
And always being the party face, simply because he feels he can do it perfectly, out of game by the way
His cover for this has always been that what he does is for the good of the party, and that the ends justify the means.
And then the worst part is when he DM's. the only way to beat him is to outsmart him, witch is imposible. Belive me, everyone in the group has tried, and all have failed.
Luckily, i have stoped playing with him, and started fresh, with my own group:smallbiggrin:

Shyftir
2011-11-24, 12:12 AM
The Hard Mode Guy

Nothing can ever be simple and easy for this guy. If he's picking up dnd he wants to start as a summoning focused wizard. If he's trying out a new video game he picks hardcore realism mode. If an rpg has simple character generation, he's not interested. and heaven help us all if the DM gives us a break, no, we gotta play the goram game right!


Edit: BTW the guy you are referencing above? he's the grognard or the "RPG veteran."

Kymme
2011-11-24, 01:36 AM
Thanks, Edited:smallbiggrin:

Velaryon
2011-11-24, 02:17 AM
The Canon Killer

This guy loves to mess up canon characters and events in the setting, so much so that he will often break character in order to do it. Playing a Star Wars campaign set during the original trilogy? He will try to kill off Luke Skywalker or prevent the Empire from taking over Cloud City, even though his character has no reason to do so. The GM basically has to keep the Canon Killer away from any of the well-known characters or stories of the setting, because he will try to interfere with them just for the sake of interfering with them.

Don't get me wrong, games that involve major changes to established universes can be lots of fun. Our group had a Star Wars game set during the Mandalorian Wars, the events that happen before the Knights of the Old Republic games. One PC had a vision of Revan killing another PC's master in a duel, and shared this information with the party. The other PC, who was extremely loyal to his master, assassinated Revan in order to prevent this from coming to pass. It ended up changing the course of the entire campaign into something that no one, least of all the GM, could have anticipated, and it was tons of fun.

As long as there's a good in-character reason for those kinds of actions, it's fine. But that's not the Canon Killer. He does what he does just for the sake of doing it.

Trekkin
2011-11-24, 02:39 AM
Making the other party members do all the work, whilst watching from the sidlines
Mostly standing in the back for like the first 3 rounds of combat, then ending it with a super powerful spell


I play wizards like this, out of respect for the tier gap between them and most of the melee/healer classes my group favors. Three rounds is a bit harsh, but generally I play powerful casters as a source of buffs that can as a last resort significantly alter the rules of an engagement that's going badly.

It sounds like your guy is doing it for a different reason, but it's also possible to do those things out of a wish to play a support character and a certain anxiety regarding player deaths.

BlackestOfMages
2011-11-24, 07:32 AM
the sandbox sheep...

so, people like sandboxes, yes? they like the freedom, the defining their own actions and building the story, with soeme poor DM waiting to see what insanity they come up with next which can never be something anyone other than the PCs as a collective group* would plan for...
...save somethimes, they want a "sandbox" with obvious, simple plothooks, and a steam engine on the back too. they complain when you let them make decisions, or when you let them *dun dun dun* make their own mind up, or have them search for clues/items/whatever, instead of putting them in the catering car...
...but heaven forbid you giving them just one plot point, or an obvious villain, or something to make them stop standding in the town square bleating, because then you're ruining the sandbox and why did you let up play a sand box if your going to railroad us anyway :smallannoyed:

Gligarman2
2012-07-03, 07:37 AM
"The-I-ignore-your-build-and-give-you-what-I-think-suits-you-DM"
You wanna use that bow? Lulz nope, here take the Greatsword.

I have had that happen. I was playing a insufferable bard/dashing swordsman. I got a shotgun and the fighter got "sword-chucks" because the DM liked 8-Bit Theater.

Driderman
2012-07-03, 08:24 AM
The guy who lives through his character, that can deal with any challange himself, and can't deal with failure or embarassment and cheats if faced with either

Alright maybe a bit specific and maybe already covered, but there's nothing worse than a player who creates a character with no flaws or negative traits, who is geared and statted to deal with pretty much any situation without relying on the rest of the group and who will cheat with the dice to prevent any situation where his character doesn't come out as Mr. Awesome.

big teej
2012-07-04, 01:11 PM
and who will cheat with the dice to prevent any situation where his character doesn't come out as Mr. Awesome.



I have another name for this guy.

I call him That Guy I Used to Play With

lotusblossom13
2012-07-04, 03:09 PM
The Your character's actions are your actions guy

What? Your good aligned cleric dislikes my clearly evil vampire pc?! Well then I hate you too! No, not your character, you.

(yes this did happen to me, and it ended with this person screaming at me, out of character)

Driderman
2012-07-04, 03:38 PM
I have another name for this guy.

I call him That Guy I Used to Play With

So do I, so do I. I really want to confront him about it too, but the other guys who still play in the group asked me not to and I figured its their problem anyway.

big teej
2012-07-04, 04:50 PM
So do I, so do I. I really want to confront him about it too, but the other guys who still play in the group asked me not to and I figured its their problem anyway.



I'm probably in a slightly different position.


I founded the On-Campus group, and I'm our DM....

so I suppose I have a bit more leeway when it comes to who stays at the table :smalltongue:


(it also helps that all our current members share my view on it, though some aren't quite as unforgiving as I am)

Driderman
2012-07-04, 06:45 PM
I'm probably in a slightly different position.


I founded the On-Campus group, and I'm our DM....

so I suppose I have a bit more leeway when it comes to who stays at the table :smalltongue:


(it also helps that all our current members share my view on it, though some aren't quite as unforgiving as I am)

I get where they're coming from though, everyone's adults now and its harder to scrape together a group, not to mention actually get it gathered on a weekly basis. I guess they just want to actually finish a campaign instead of it petering out.
I didn't want to be an extra in the wonderful story of Mr. Awesome, though :smallamused:

big teej
2012-07-04, 07:00 PM
I get where they're coming from though, everyone's adults now and its harder to scrape together a group, not to mention actually get it gathered on a weekly basis. I guess they just want to actually finish a campaign instead of it petering out.
I didn't want to be an extra in the wonderful story of Mr. Awesome, though :smallamused:

having adventured with a few of those (and made something of a habit ]others would call it a career] of deflating their egos)

I totally understand.

Ozfer
2012-07-04, 10:53 PM
Similar to the monster, mentioned earlier-

The Dark One

If he's not evil, he can't have fun. Even if he promises to play a good character, he just can't help it. Regardless of the groups attempts to throw him back to The Shadow from whence he came, he persists.

The nonsensical character concepts.... My god the horror... "A balor, but he's good. I mean kinda. He just won't do anything really bad."

Never whole, always some demonic lich thingamabob... It's a nightmare to try and write adventures for. Let alone keep him with the party.

[Disclaimer- The guy I play with, regardless of being the dark one, is a great player and adds a lot to the game. I just wish he wasn't always evil....]

peacenlove
2012-07-05, 12:08 AM
The DM who requires you have ESP

This one's a three-parter:

1. Declare that all material must be justified on a case-by-case basis before play, and all characters must have a detailed backstory.
2. Be totally unreachable outside of session time to adjudicate those cases
3. Not reveal why specifically, when characters are presented for your inspection, they are discarded with a cursory glance because "it doesn't work for what I'm trying to do".

Singly, each ranges from vaguely puzzling to irksome. In combination, they form a trifecta of awful that achieves truly epic proportions when added to 4:

4. Impose a blanket ban on characters at all similar to past ones.

So, to recap, you spend hours making characters and are then forced to have the DM rifle through this session's sheaf, deciding which of them exist with no detectable rhyme or reason.

I am guilty of No 1 but geez, hasn't anyone heard about skype?

Also a related (and maybe opposite) habit:
DM says: You can use any source book, within reason
Player hears: I will use ALL of them

Player freedom is all well and good until you go into rules conflicts that could fill entire books. Trying to craft and explain the character to the DM will be like presenting quantum physics to amoeba. Actually playing the character will require a business class database for his abilities. The worst thing is that he will go to great lengths to acquire an ability (not necessarily gamebreaking) without asking the DM if there is a simpler method.

BlackestOfMages
2012-07-05, 12:20 PM
@ Peacenlove: to be fair, all sourcebooks is part of any sourcebook (unless you use a different interpratation of any than the rest of the language) - and I've hardly ever seen anyone need a database to explain their abilities so much as a book/page refrence for the ability in question*

and a few to add, based on recent experiance.

Mr "Oh it's in X sourcebook, I found it on the Internet, I wrote it down so you don't need to look for it" Guy
So, you're going along, DMing a game and you said your players can use any material so long as they can provide you with a source. and then bob comes in with his character sheet - and so many feats and class abilities you've never heard of from a book you've never heard of. Bob, to be "hepful", has their effects written down and they look a little, shall we say, circumspect; that is to say, broken as all f**k and all together to cheap.
When you ask bob about this "sourcebook", he says he found it on the internet, and its an obsucre wizard one, and it's all legal - but your own research turns up zip on it.
And when you bring this up to bob, he insists its legal and not his own/someone elses homebrew... and heaven forbid you try and alter the effects, because thats tamerping with wizards stuf...

so, the moral here; if you want to use homebrew, ask and don't be offended if someone says no. don't pretend your homebrew is a real thing...

the DM flake
so you start a game - be it with a real-life group or PbP - and for once someone is DMing a game your intrested in. you applybuild your character and so does everyone else, but just before the start or after one session the DM either vanishes or decides they don't want to run the game anymore, without informing the players.
so, since you don't want everyone to be dissapointed due to the game ending, and you have some DMing experiance yourself, you decide to pick up the game and take over...
...then the old DM returns, with a character prepared, and asks to join :smallfurious: turns out this was his plan from the start, and you all just walked into someone affraied to ask for a type of game so scammed you into it.

* this is assuming your using sourcebooks one of you owns and not taking internet refrences...

big teej
2012-07-05, 01:01 PM
.

Mr "Oh it's in X sourcebook, I found it on the Internet, I wrote it down so you don't need to look for it" Guy
So, you're going along, DMing a game and you said your players can use any material so long as they can provide you with a source. and then bob comes in with his character sheet - and so many feats and class abilities you've never heard of from a book you've never heard of. Bob, to be "hepful", has their effects written down and they look a little, shall we say, circumspect; that is to say, broken as all f**k and all together to cheap.
When you ask bob about this "sourcebook", he says he found it on the internet, and its an obsucre wizard one, and it's all legal - but your own research turns up zip on it.
And when you bring this up to bob, he insists its legal and not his own/someone elses homebrew... and heaven forbid you try and alter the effects, because thats tamerping with wizards stuf...

so, the moral here; if you want to use homebrew, ask and don't be offended if someone says no. don't pretend your homebrew is a real thing...


heh, I tend to take a bit of flak on this little rule of mine, buuuuuuuuuut.

I have a simple rule regarding sources allowed.

the party is restricted to what I own, in meatspace.

period.


now, this is not to say I don't allow homebrew, but everybody knows I'm very strict about what gets allowed.

I must confess, this rule has been recently laxed to include "you may submit online WIZARDS material for approval, with an accompanying link."

>.>
<.<

and if the DM bring uses non-standard stuff: it's not homebrew, it's world building! :smallbiggrin:

Krazzman
2012-07-06, 04:00 AM
the DM flake


Bonus points if he doesn't even come to the sessions where someone else dms. I think it's because of D3 but well...

Shadow Viper
2012-07-06, 01:10 PM
The phone addict

Holds things up texting & playing with his phone every 30 seconds, gets really annoying when he starts every turn by asking what is going on as he has not paid any attention since his last turn.

Next time he pulls this simply narrate(provided you're the DM), "<his character's name> seems to be in a daze" and move onto the next person/monster's turn. Keep doing that until he gets the messages/learns his lesson. If you're not the DM, then suggest this to the DM.




The annoying smoker

Insists on taking a smoke break RIGHT NOW even if it's in the middle of a combat/negotiation etc. 3 smokers in the group he is the only one that's a problem.



Talk with the other people of the group. As a group(or if you're the DM, then it's much more simple): Tell him that if he needs a smoke break RIGHT NOW, he'll be the only one taking it. The game will proceed along without him.

Players who smoke should never be allowed to inconvenience the group by needing to take random smoke breaks. It's perfectly fine if he/she waits until a good time to pause the game and/or take a break real quick. But attempting to interrupt combat/negotiation/etc should be shut down immediately, and made clear that it's not acceptable.

BlackestOfMages
2012-07-06, 01:20 PM
Bonus points if he doesn't even come to the sessions where someone else dms. I think it's because of D3 but well...

that'd be less annoying...

it'd mean he'd just quit, not tricked me into DMing a game I wasn't that intrested in but my freinds where :smallsigh:

Sith_Happens
2012-07-06, 11:58 PM
the DM flake
so you start a game - be it with a real-life group or PbP - and for once someone is DMing a game your intrested in. you applybuild your character and so does everyone else, but just before the start or after one session the DM either vanishes or decides they don't want to run the game anymore, without informing the players.
so, since you don't want everyone to be dissapointed due to the game ending, and you have some DMing experiance yourself, you decide to pick up the game and take over...
...then the old DM returns, with a character prepared, and asks to join :smallfurious: turns out this was his plan from the start, and you all just walked into someone affraied to ask for a type of game so scammed you into it.

...To which you answered that he can take his character and shove it, and everyone else lived happily ever after.

The Random NPC
2012-07-07, 12:35 AM
the DM flake
so you start a game - be it with a real-life group or PbP - and for once someone is DMing a game your intrested in. you applybuild your character and so does everyone else, but just before the start or after one session the DM either vanishes or decides they don't want to run the game anymore, without informing the players.
so, since you don't want everyone to be dissapointed due to the game ending, and you have some DMing experiance yourself, you decide to pick up the game and take over...
...then the old DM returns, with a character prepared, and asks to join :smallfurious: turns out this was his plan from the start, and you all just walked into someone affraied to ask for a type of game so scammed you into it.

I had a DM similar to this, but instead of tricking someone into DMing for him, he tricked us all into being an audience for his guitar practice.

JetThomasBoat
2012-07-07, 05:49 AM
I've seen a lot of these. Like this one guy I used to play with would always play the blackguard when he rest of us were good, or the psion when the rest of us only knew about the core classes. And when he DMd, we'd have to use the core books, but his dragon could be riddled with Draconomicon feats.

lotusblossom13
2012-07-07, 12:40 PM
Can anyone post a link to Fun-killing Session Habits: Thread 1? I'm curious to read some of the other posts?

The Random NPC
2012-07-07, 12:51 PM
Can anyone post a link to Fun-killing Session Habits: Thread 1? I'm curious to read some of the other posts?

Ask and ye shall receive. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=192060

Sutremaine
2012-07-08, 10:37 AM
Also a related (and maybe opposite) habit:
DM says: You can use any source book, within reason
Player hears: I will use ALL of them

Player freedom is all well and good until you go into rules conflicts that could fill entire books.
Within whose reason, the player's or the DM's? What if the player thinks that either there are no rules conflicts or that they can reasonably be resolved?

peacenlove
2012-07-09, 12:38 AM
Within whose reason, the player's or the DM's? What if the player thinks that either there are no rules conflicts or that they can reasonably be resolved?

I am talking about extreme cases and rules not covered in the core books (example: complete psion's erudite and its 2-3 interpretations of how many powers he is given per level. Or Bloodlines in unearthed arcanna.).
To answer your question, within the whole table's patience reason.
If the player thinks that there is no rule conflicts, then he can explain it to the DM in 5-10 minutes tops. Same if he spotlights an alternative and saner ruling to this ruling.
Personally I don't like undefined spots in the character, which would take away from table time, and when the books pile in, then the possibility of them appearing also grows larger.

Fortis
2012-07-09, 04:59 PM
Yeah, I've got one. The Sleep Deprived.

I don't know what his issue is, but he has actually fell asleep at the game table. I don't know if he as a night job, or if the cigarettes he rolls are acting as a sedative on him, or what. I just wish he would wake himself up enough to play the game. Take a moment to get a coke or some coffee, or take a walk for a minute. It'd be better than nodding off, then asking what he missed when the other players or GM wakes him.

Cisturn
2012-07-09, 11:57 PM
Yeah, I've got one. The Sleep Deprived.

I don't know what his issue is, but he has actually fell asleep at the game table. I don't know if he as a night job, or if the cigarettes he rolls are acting as a sedative on him, or what. I just wish he would wake himself up enough to play the game. Take a moment to get a coke or some coffee, or take a walk for a minute. It'd be better than nodding off, then asking what he missed when the other players or GM wakes him.

This has definitely been me before. Last summer I was running a game over skype at night, but working at a summer camp everyday from like nine to six. My players were pretty understanding and forgiving, though I think they wanted to put in place a "everybody levels if the dm falls a asleep again" houserule

But now back to the action

The Not-so-open Sandbox
This DM will tell you that you're in a sandbox. You can do whatever and go anywhere your heart desires. Except that every choice except one, is very very wrong. "Oh you went to see the castle, instead of observing the country side..." It'll result in random and sudden player deaths, or the unleashing of a horrible monster upon the countryside. Meanwhile there was one correct path in the sandbox that wasn't even hinted at. Bonus points of the DM calls you stupid for not choosing the right path.

My DM at college is the worst when it comes to this. We're playing a big grand game where the entire planes are threatened by the reawakening of an old mad god. This is very cool, and how we stop him is entirely up to us! It's a vast well-developed world and we can technically go wherever we want. Except there's only one way to stop the mad god, every other plot we find is nothing but a time sink. Which is bad because we're also on a time limit, and the world gets noticeably worse every time we choose the wrong plot.

Vknight
2012-07-10, 01:18 AM
The Fearful, Power Prone? Ah can't think of a good name.

This is the guy who makes a bard plays one session of it a gets unlucky rolls. And instantly believes his character is not powerful.
From to low Hp, to low AC, not high enough attack bonuses etc.
He will come back with the almost same character maybe instead of a sword a bow and hide armor things that provide minor changes.
And if the character can't be the life ending god of destruction and/or sexy shoeless god of war(Even at Lvl1) gives up on the character

To make up for his perceived flaws in his character he will both over specialize and under specialize. Wasting huge amounts of gold to get melee weapons for a ranged character and never enchanting his main weapon whatever bow that may be.
This is the person who after getting unlucky and getting Full-Attacked were 3out of 4 attacks hit from high rolls believe's he has to increase his characters "Low AC"
Besides the constant worrying and crippling overspecialization for that one time that one thing happens(and even then he probably messes it up by not having the feats etc. for it)
Or his under-specialization leaves his unable to act in any form of combat, his bow has low to hit, his blade has no magics etc.
Whatever the end result this player can't stand any moment where there is a NPC more powerful then themselves if they are the same class. Seeing that NPC's abilities(especially if similar) as mocking or something else and will be openly hostile to the point where they should be dead for their insolence...

Sorry one of my players is this. He has a 19AC to start with in a Pathfinder game and when doing a test run to make sure he had the math right he fought a kobold(Or something with Claws and bite that was CR:1/3 at most) which got lucky rolling 2(19's) and a 20.
So yeah the crit got confirmed for something that was around 12damage.
He instantly asked for ways to make his character have better Hp...
I got a Crit, he nodded and asked again(after saying besides Toughness)...:smallfurious:

lotusblossom13
2012-07-10, 04:00 PM
The memebot

This player has a favorite meme that they love to share with the group. Heck the first time it was said it might have even caused the group to laugh. However, by the time "card games on motorcycles" or "the cake is a lie" has been uttered for the fiftieth time, one's nerves begin to feel grated like mozzarella for a pizza.

(bonus points if the meme is so obscure that no one in the group has heard of it so said player needs to interrupt the game to explain/show it to everyone)

Silus
2012-07-10, 09:17 PM
No way out aka NO FUDGE FOR YOU

Had a DM that did this a few times. First time, the party (lvl 6's in a low magic campaign (Low magic for the players)) were getting steamrolled by a lvl 20 Psion/Rogue that the DM decided to throw at us. I panicked, ran out to the dry dock (We were fighting in a spelljammer shipyard) and said "I go to the nearest ship with cannons". I hop aboard, run to the pilot's terminal and get ready to take off.

"Oh, you need magic to pilot that."
"FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUU-" *Deep breath* "Fine. The cannons work right?"
"Yup."
"Ok, I fire them at the portal." (Time portal)

Turns out the DM had a ship that my character could have piloted, but I didn't get to it. In fact, I would have had to search for it while the rest of my party was getting slaughtered.

Second instance, the party gets incapacitated in a non-combat situation (Poison, drugs, bit of revenge for said drugs, ect) and we're all out of commission. Turns out that before said incapacitation, assassins were sent out for us. So they show up when we're either tripping balls or slowly dying due to poison and kill us off. The DM could of at least said "Well, due to the snow and conditions, the assassins got stalled juuuuuuuuust long enough for you to recover. Roll initiative." but no.

big teej
2012-07-10, 09:52 PM
No way out aka NO FUDGE FOR YOU

Had a DM that did this a few times. First time, the party (lvl 6's in a low magic campaign (Low magic for the players)) were getting steamrolled by a lvl 20 Psion/Rogue that the DM decided to throw at us. I panicked, ran out to the dry dock (We were fighting in a spelljammer shipyard) and said "I go to the nearest ship with cannons". I hop aboard, run to the pilot's terminal and get ready to take off.

"Oh, you need magic to pilot that."
"FFFFFFFFUUUUUUUU-" *Deep breath* "Fine. The cannons work right?"
"Yup."
"Ok, I fire them at the portal." (Time portal)

Turns out the DM had a ship that my character could have piloted, but I didn't get to it. In fact, I would have had to search for it while the rest of my party was getting slaughtered.

Second instance, the party gets incapacitated in a non-combat situation (Poison, drugs, bit of revenge for said drugs, ect) and we're all out of commission. Turns out that before said incapacitation, assassins were sent out for us. So they show up when we're either tripping balls or slowly dying due to poison and kill us off. The DM could of at least said "Well, due to the snow and conditions, the assassins got stalled juuuuuuuuust long enough for you to recover. Roll initiative." but no.

the second one sounds like an excellent excuse to run an 'escape from capture' adventure instead of TPKing the party.

BlackestOfMages
2012-07-11, 02:28 PM
Had a DM that did this a few times. First time, the party (lvl 6's in a low magic campaign (Low magic for the players)) were getting steamrolled by a lvl 20 Psion/Rogue that the DM decided to throw at us.

your dm sent a level 20 character against a team of level 6s?

I think you need a new DM...

Qwertystop
2012-07-11, 02:41 PM
your dm sent a level 20 character against a team of level 6s?

I think you need a new DM...

Might have been under the faulty logic that 6+6+6+6>20.

JohnnyCancer
2012-07-11, 02:47 PM
I play in a game on Mondays where a couple of the characters could never keep their modifiers straight. Every combat, we would blaze through the DM's actions, and the actions of people who got their acts together, and then it would break down for 20 minutes while two people figured out how their characters work. EVERY TIME.

Eventually, with the help of one of the problem players and the DM, I designed a form that we use to keep track of active buffs and debuffs, and a chart that the problem players can consult to see what their modifiers are for all they things they're fond of doing: flurry of blows, combat maneuvers, full attack, etc. So now they just look at the chart to pick the appropriate modifier, and I give them the total of what affects them and they add the two modifiers to their rolls.

It's an extra level of book-keeping, but the previous situation was a definite fun-killer!

Amidus Drexel
2012-07-11, 06:45 PM
I play in a game on Mondays where a couple of the characters could never keep their modifiers straight. Every combat, we would blaze through the DM's actions, and the actions of people who got their acts together, and then it would break down for 20 minutes while two people figured out how their characters work. EVERY TIME.

Eventually, with the help of one of the problem players and the DM, I designed a form that we use to keep track of active buffs and debuffs, and a chart that the problem players can consult to see what their modifiers are for all they things they're fond of doing: flurry of blows, combat maneuvers, full attack, etc. So now they just look at the chart to pick the appropriate modifier, and I give them the total of what affects them and they add the two modifiers to their rolls.

It's an extra level of book-keeping, but the previous situation was a definite fun-killer!

I know the feeling. Might have to do that myself, actually. My problem tends to be with my spellcasters not remembering ANYTHING about themselves (DCs, dice caps, skill bonuses, spells/day {only rarely}, etc.)

big teej
2012-07-11, 09:13 PM
I know the feeling. Might have to do that myself, actually. My problem tends to be with my spellcasters not remembering ANYTHING about themselves (DCs, dice caps, skill bonuses, spells/day {only rarely}, etc.)

I have a rather simple solution to that at my table.

a player that consistently is unable to do so is simply not allowed to play casters.