Detect magic and magic traps...

[Stubbed Tongue]

Members of our gaming group are under the impression that detect magic allows a wizard to know there is a symbol of death placed as a trap. Yet others believe only rogues can detect symbols used as traps.


What say you?

[Diarmuid]

Anyone can see a Symbol of Death.



Until it is triggered, the symbol of death is inactive (though visible and legible at a distance of 60 feet). To be effective, a symbol of death must always be placed in plain sight and in a prominent location. Covering or hiding the rune renders the symbol of death ineffective, unless a creature removes the covering, in which case the symbol of death works normally.

[Stubbed Tongue]

Read the last couple paragraphs...one mentions a rogue(only) can detect it.

[Diarmuid]

The spell description is not consistent. On one hand it must be visible and legible, and in fact placed "in plain sight and in a prominent location" and yet later mentions the rogue piece.

I dont know what to tell ya pal. Either way, if you're within Detect Magic range or Search range...you're likely to be triggering the damn thing anyway.

[Jayh]

In general, I let my players use detect magic to find magic traps.

[Glimbur]

Trapfinding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#trapfinding) says

Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Search skill to locate traps when the task has a Difficulty Class higher than 20.

Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 20, or higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Disable Device skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.

A rogue who beats a trap’s DC by 10 or more with a Disable Device check can study a trap, figure out how it works, and bypass it (with her party) without disarming it.

Therefore only rogues (or other classes with trapfinding) can find magic traps via the Search skill. The entry on traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm) agrees that only rogues can find magic traps via Search. For purposes of role protection, and so magic traps have a use, I would say that Detect Magic doesn't detect magic traps, which I would define as any spell which has a Search DC to locate.

As an interesting sidenote, I think I stumbled onto a serious problem with the Tippyverse's self-resetting spell traps:

Reset

A reset element is the set of conditions under which a trap becomes ready to trigger again.

No Reset

Short of completely rebuilding the trap, there’s no way to trigger it more than once. Spell traps have no reset element.

Repair

To get the trap functioning again, you must repair it.

Manual

Resetting the trap requires someone to move the parts back into place. This is the kind of reset element most mechanical traps have.

Automatic

The trap resets itself, either immediately or after a timed interval.

Emphasis mine. It seems that self-resetting spell traps are not RAW. Which is problematic because, for example, the Burning Hands trap has an automatic reset.

[sreservoir]

one could interpret the description to mean that symbols can be detected, viewed, and triggered only my rogues and other trapfinders.

in that case, it would be quite an effective deterrent to rogues, and almost nobody else.

[Jack_Simth]

Emphasis mine. It seems that self-resetting spell traps are not RAW. Which is problematic because, for example, the Burning Hands trap has an automatic reset.You're looking at the wrong thing. A spell trap is not the same as a magic trap; look up at the top:

Types of Traps

A trap can be either mechanical or magic in nature. Mechanical traps include pits, arrow traps, falling blocks, water-filled rooms, whirling blades, and anything else that depends on a mechanism to operate. A mechanical trap can be constructed by a PC through successful use of the Craft (trapmaking) skill (see Designing a Trap, below, and the skill description).

Magic traps are further divided into spell traps and magic device traps. Magic device traps initiate spell effects when activated, just as wands, rods, rings, and other magic items do. Creating a magic device trap requires the Craft Wondrous Item feat (see Designing a Trap and the feat description).

Spell traps are simply spells that themselves function as traps. Creating a spell trap requires the services of a character who can cast the needed spell or spells, who is usually either the character creating the trap or an NPC spellcaster hired for the purpose. (Emphasis added)

So Explosive Runes (a spell trap) has no reset mechanism, but magic traps can auto-reset.


Members of our gaming group are under the impression that detect magic allows a wizard to know there is a symbol of death placed as a trap. Yet others believe only rogues can detect symbols used as traps.


What say you?
Per the Disable Device (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/disableDevice.htm) skill description:

Other Ways To Beat A Trap

It’s possible to ruin many traps without making a Disable Device check.

Ranged Attack Traps

Once a trap’s location is known, the obvious way to ruin it is to smash the mechanism—assuming the mechanism can be accessed. Failing that, it’s possible to plug up the holes from which the projectiles emerge. Doing this prevents the trap from firing unless its ammunition does enough damage to break through the plugs.

Melee Attack Traps

These devices can be thwarted by smashing the mechanism or blocking the weapons, as noted above. Alternatively, if a character studies the trap as it triggers, he might be able to time his dodges just right to avoid damage. A character who is doing nothing but studying a trap when it first goes off gains a +4 dodge bonus against its attacks if it is triggered again within the next minute.

Pits

Disabling a pit trap generally ruins only the trapdoor, making it an uncovered pit. Filling in the pit or building a makeshift bridge across it is an application of manual labor, not the Disable Device skill. Characters could neutralize any spikes at the bottom of a pit by attacking them—they break just as daggers do.

Magic Traps

Dispel magic helps here. Someone who succeeds on a caster level check against the level of the trap’s creator suppresses the trap for 1d4 rounds. This works only with a targeted dispel magic, not the area version.
As magic traps are made as magic items (mostly), or are active spells, yes, Detect Magic and Arcane Sight work... unless steps have been taken to specifically foil such (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/magicAura.htm).

[Glimbur]

Ah. Thanks for clearing that up... it seemed unlikely that such an obvious oversight was committed.

Magic Aura is almost long enough lasting to just have a mob of adepts sweep the dungeon each day, but you could also put a self-resetting trap of Magic Aura next to each actual magic trap which alternates casting on the trap and themselves, at a suitably long interval. Effects which detect spellcasting could find the trap as it cast, so put a delay of hours or days in it to reduce the risk.

[Jack_Simth]

Magic Aura is almost long enough lasting to just have a mob of adepts sweep the dungeon each day, but you could also put a self-resetting trap of Magic Aura next to each actual magic trap which alternates casting on the trap and themselves, at a suitably long interval. Effects which detect spellcasting could find the trap as it cast, so put a delay of hours or days in it to reduce the risk.It's simpler than that:

Magic Aura trap.

The trigger? It detects a magical aura via Detect Magic (whether it's own or another's). If you make it at caster level 1, it goes off twice per day: Once on itself, once on the trap it's intended to conceal. It may also quiet auras on the items of passerbys, but that's not usually going to be a big deal (and is actually helpful if your minions go by that way regularly - makes their more expensive equipment slightly less likely to be looted).

[ericgrau]

The spell is plainly visible. When it says that only a rogue can find it, it is referring to magic traps. The rogue notices a trap, everyone else notices a weird marking. Detect magic only finds a necromancy spell, and then only with a DC 24 spellcraft check (otherwise it says "yes, there's magic"). There are 3-4 different levels of usefulness there.

[Jack_Simth]

The spell is plainly visible. When it says that only a rogue can find it, it is referring to magic traps. The rogue notices a trap, everyone else notices a weird marking. Detect magic only finds a necromancy spell, and then only with a DC 24 spellcraft check (otherwise it says "yes, there's magic"). There are 3-4 different levels of usefulness there.
Absolutely. Locating a Magic Trap via Detect Magic is only half the fun. You then need to detect whether or not it's a dangerous trap - you'll usually have a pretty decent idea just from the school, and Wizards, at least, have good reason to crank up the Spellcraft - and then you use something simple, like Summon Monster I (or better: The Summon Elemental Reserve feat from Complete Mage), to send a disposable minion valuable planar ally to act as a miner's canary - drop it into a dangerous situation to see if it survives scout ahead for opponents. If you don't have access to Summons, you can use your other disposable minions valued party members, specifically the dwarf or monk (both of whom have a much higher chance of surviving whatever trap it is than do most).

[tyckspoon]

Therefore only rogues (or other classes with trapfinding) can find magic traps via the Search skill. The entry on traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm) agrees that only rogues can find magic traps via Search. For purposes of role protection, and so magic traps have a use, I would say that Detect Magic doesn't detect magic traps, which I would define as any spell which has a Search DC to locate.


Detect Magic isn't all that good for these things regardless. It won't tell you that the trap is in fact a trap, what kind of trap it is, how it gets set off, or how dangerous it likely will be if you do set it off. A Rogue who finds it can give you that information, in addition to trying to disable it. Which is the key part, really- ok, your Wizard detects magic in a square where there really shouldn't be any. Adventurer paranoia being what it is, you deduce that it is most likely a magically-powered trap. How do you deal with it? Say the magical aura is located inside half an inch of metal plating on the floor- close enough to the surface that you can Detect through it, but deep enough to block direct line of effect so you can't Dispel it. Your Rogue can handle that. Your Wizard.. probably can't, unless he's gone full on trapsmith/dungeon deconstruction style.

Re: Rogue detection: There's some extrapolating that has to be done, but the most sensible explanation I've heard for how this is supposed to work goes as follows.

There is a magical trap. In this case, let's make it a Symbol of Death. It's on top of the Evil Altar in the Shrine of Doom your adventuring party has just successfully raided and is in the process of looting. Normally, it's hidden and inert under the embroidered runner used to decorate the altartop- the Symbol is there to keep nosy invaders and unauthorized worshippers from doing anything with the richly bejeweled worship implements that are stored in a compartment in the altar itself. Now, normally, in order to locate and deal with that Symbol, you'd have to pull the cover off. Bam, you see it, it attempts to strike you dead, not a lot you can do about it other than make your save against the effect or otherwise suffer the effects of the trap.

Now, enter the Rogue. Trapfinding grants the Rogue the ability to locate and interact with that Symbol in a way that doesn't set it off. Even if he removes the covering cloth in his search attempts, if his Search result is good enough the result isn't "a Symbol goes off in your face", it's "you found a magical Symbol trap on the altar, would you like to attempt to Disable it?" How he does this doesn't really matter- you can attempt to justify it however you like, but in the end it makes about as much sense as Evasion. This is what I'm pretty sure Trapfinding was *meant* to do in interaction with "lol you saw me, boom!" kinds of traps, even the area sensor ones; if the Rogue is searching for traps near their detection boundaries, he will figure out 'a trap will go off if I enter that square', and then if he proceeds further in to try and find the actual source of the trap he still won't set the thing off.. unless he botches the required Search and/or Disable Device checks too bad.

[Doug Lampert]

Trapfinding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#trapfinding) says

Therefore only rogues (or other classes with trapfinding) can find magic traps via the Search skill. The entry on traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm) agrees that only rogues can find magic traps via Search. For purposes of role protection, and so magic traps have a use, I would say that Detect Magic doesn't detect magic traps, which I would define as any spell which has a Search DC to locate.

Wait, the rules you are quoting CLEARLY reference that only rogues can find such traps by use the search skill, and from this you conclude that traps can't be found by any method other than a rogue searching?

That's not what your quote says, but fine, we'll assume they MEANT to say, "Such traps can not be found except by a rogue using the search skill" rather than what they actually said which is: "Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Search skill to locate traps... " which is totally consistent with everyone being able to find them by any method other than search.

Good. Since setting off a trap finds it there is no way to set of any magical trap, ever, except to have a rogue search for it. As long as no rogue uses the search skill then in your campaign it CAN'T go off. Ever. Because you've declared that the limit isn't that only rogues can use the search skill to find such traps but rather that traps can only be found by a rogue using the search skill. So I can't find the trap by any other method which means I can't set it off by any other method.

So I'm safe, shame about all the dead rogues, but without them we'd never know about the traps.

Or, you could just use the sane interpretation, which is that a limit on who can use the search skill to find something is only a limit on the search skill, and notice that spelltraps aren't all that vulnerable to detect magic. Is it a hidden magic item or a trap? The world may never know. Because detect magic doesn't neccessarily tell you.

[Niceman]

Ok... was going to ask the question myself, but came across this thread. I have a similar situation, but with a slight alteration. Here's the specifics:

My wizard recently received as treasure a spellbook from the lair of a powerful vampire-wizard. There's sure to be protections and traps on the book so he wants to proceed in the safest way possible... not only for his own safety put to not risk losing the valuable spells within.

Detect Magic is a basic 0-level spell. Rudimentary at best. I want to examine the book with far more discerning power... namely the 6th level Analyze Dweomer spell. It not only detects magic, but it also a powerful identify spell telliing me what spells are active what a magic item is and how it works, activation words etc. Working on the approach that Magical Traps are wondrous items (albeit destructive ones), with that level of magic power behind it (6th-level.. 11th level caster), would Analyze Dweomer not only be able to detect a magical trap, but also give understanding on how it works, and thereby be able to disarm or at least bypass the magical trap?

[Big Fau]

Ah. Thanks for clearing that up... it seemed unlikely that such an obvious oversight was committed.

Monks aren't proficient with unarmed strikes.



Just sayin'.

[Siosilvar]

Working on the approach that Magical Traps are wondrous items (albeit destructive ones), with that level of magic power behind it (6th-level.. 11th level caster), would Analyze Dweomer not only be able to detect a magical trap, but also give understanding on how it works, and thereby be able to disarm or at least bypass the magical trap?

Analyze Dweomer requires that you already have access to the item, or at least know where to look (within Close range), so I don't think it'd be able to help you detect it. EDIT: Excepting, of course, if the trap is on some item (like your wizard's book)... I believe.

It would let you know exactly what it does and what sets it off, which I imagine would give a pretty hefty bonus to a Disable Device check to disarm or bypass (probably enough to make it doable even while untrained... +2 per CL, perhaps?).

[ericgrau]

I should add that a DC 29 spellcraft check can also identify the spell by looking at the rune.

[koscum]

...would Analyze Dweomer not only be able to detect a magical trap, but also give understanding on how it works, and thereby be able to disarm or at least bypass the magical trap?

Hmmmm... Maybe Spellcraft vs. Trap DC + 10, every trap checked separately, fail by 10 or more and all traps related to that trigger (e.g. open the book, turn page no. 7) go off as well. Remember that, as a Wizard, you don't have nearly enough experience in disabling traps (it doesn't matter that it's magic) compared to, let's say, a Rogue, so it should be a moderately difficult check (it's not called Class Feature for nothing!). Don't forget that this should be a secret roll (same reason as Disable Device) and only another casting of Analyze Dweomer or brave attempt of trying to use it should reveal if you managed to disable it (Disable Device: Try Again).

[Niceman]

Hmmmm... Maybe Spellcraft vs. Trap DC + 10, every trap checked separately, fail by 10 or more and all traps related to that trigger (e.g. open the book, turn page no. 7) go off as well. Remember that, as a Wizard, you don't have nearly enough experience in disabling traps (it doesn't matter that it's magic) compared to, let's say, a Rogue, so it should be a moderately difficult check (it's not called Class Feature for nothing!). Don't forget that this should be a secret roll (same reason as Disable Device) and only another casting of Analyze Dweomer or brave attempt of trying to use it should reveal if you managed to disable it (Disable Device: Try Again).

Very true. As a wizard I know nothing about traps, so I can certainly see that. I was looking at it from the other side as it's an item of magic and I, btw, have the Craft Wondrous Item feat, which is required to make magic traps in the first place, and I'm using a spell of considerable power to figure things out. I'll pass this thread along to my DM so he can the the sides of it. Thanks to you all :)

[koscum]

Very true. As a wizard I know nothing about traps, so I can certainly see that. I was looking at it from the other side as it's an item of magic and I, btw, have the Craft Wondrous Item feat, which is required to make magic traps in the first place, and I'm using a spell of considerable power to figure things out. I'll pass this thread along to my DM so he can the the sides of it. Thanks to you all :)
CWI could shave off some of that DC (3 points, maybe 4). Having the spell used in making the trap memorized could help as well (another -3 off of Spellcraft DC). Still, I'd make it a time consuming process so that it doesn't replace DD under normal conditions.

[Jack_Simth]

I want to examine the book with far more discerning power... namely the 6th level Analyze Dweomer spell. It not only detects magic, but it also a powerful identify spell telliing me what spells are active what a magic item is and how it works, activation words etc. Working on the approach that Magical Traps are wondrous items (albeit destructive ones), with that level of magic power behind it (6th-level.. 11th level caster), would Analyze Dweomer not only be able to detect a magical trap, but also give understanding on how it works, and thereby be able to disarm or at least bypass the magical trap?
You get a full analysis of all spells and magical effects at work on the book, as well as the magical properties (which a crafted trap would be).

If he's got a trap on there, bypassable with a command-word, then you know the command-word. If he's got Explosive Runes in there, you'll know the spell effect. If he's got a Sepia Snake Sigil on there, you'll know about it. However:

A lot of things in D&D are based on identity, however, and the spell won't get you a new ID. Explosive Runes says "You and any characters you specifically instruct can read the protected writing without triggering the runes" - you may know there are explosive runes there, but unless you've been instructed by the caster, that method won't bypass them (you don't fit the listed criteria of the spell... you could, however, use an AMF to read it without issues, and possibly remove the actual writing mundanely). A Sepia Snake Sigil... doesn't actually have a bypass, even for the caster, other than not reading that page. Symbol of Death (and all the Symbol spells that inherit) can have any number of bypass methods (identity, command-word, holy symbol displayed, race, alignment, et cetera).

Giving you a hefty bonus to Disable Device? Makes sense.

Oh yes, and there's a first level spell that would cause you headaches: Magic Aura.

[koscum]

You could try this one as well:
Spellcraft DC = 20 + trap Caster Level (minimal required for the spell) + trap Spell Level + crafter Caster Level (at the time of trap creation) - your Caster Level
CWI = -3 to DC
spell used to create trap is prepared = -2 to DC

Analyze Dweomer is used in place of Search, so it doesn't help in any other way other than providing the necessary information.

[Gotterdammerung]

Trapfinding (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/rogue.htm#trapfinding) says


Therefore only rogues (or other classes with trapfinding) can find magic traps via the Search skill. The entry on traps (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm) agrees that only rogues can find magic traps via Search. For purposes of role protection, and so magic traps have a use, I would say that Detect Magic doesn't detect magic traps, which I would define as any spell which has a Search DC to locate.


I disagree. Those rules state that only the rogue may use search to find the trap. But there are ways to find traps without using the search skill. When someone uses detect magic to find a magical trap, they are not using the search skill. Therefore they are not held under the restrictions of a search skill. Bottom line. Magical traps are magical. Detect magic detects magic. There are plenty of ways to locate traps without trapfinding.

10 foot poles and summoned fodder to trigger them, thus locating them.

X-ray vision

Detect traps spell and many other divination spells.

Just because "trap-finding" is the only way to find a trap with the search skill does not mean its the only way to find a trap.

[Optimator]

Detect Magic not detecting magic traps makes no sense.

[koscum]

Detect Magic not detecting magic traps makes no sense.
It should detect them, but you wouldn't be able to tell whether or not it's a trap. You only detect presence of magic and it's school, you don't get to identify the spell.


Cast Detect Magic on awesome looking dagger on the altar.
It's magical.
Concentrate for 3 rounds.
It gives off a Moderate Evocation aura.
Is that a Wounding dagger or does it have a Chain Lightning trap on it?

[Niceman]

Detect Magic not detecting magic traps makes no sense.

Actually I can see that it wouldn't. Traps are designed for surprise so just as a mundane trap is camouflaged and hidden from normal sight, a magical trap could be by it's nature concealed from rudimentary detection. Detect Magic is a 0-level spell... a minor cantrip the lowliest apprentice can cast, so it wouldn't be hard to mask a trap from it's detection.

Conversely, the more powerful detection, Arcane Sight, I think would be able to burn through the concealment. Of course the GM could rule the CR of the trap in question is high enough that it has a higher level obscurement, in which case as always, it's the Rogue's intuition and skill that will be the true method of detection.