Is this broken? mark I

[Doomboy911]

Alright the basic idea of this thread is that people post something asking whether or not this is broken.

I'll begin is heroes of horrors broken?

[Mystic Muse]

Alright the basic idea of this thread is that people post something asking whether or not this is broken.

I'll begin is heroes of horrors broken?

You'll have to be more specific. There are things in there that are considered broken such as the tainted scholar or archivist, but there are other things in there that are considered pretty much fine. There are very few entire books that are broken.

Also, do you mean broken as in "overpowered" or broken as in "Needs to be fixed."? Because under the second option, Truenamer is broken, but probably doesn't fall under the first option unless you go for gate abuse.

[Claudius Maximus]

Soft Serve's got it right. What are you looking at in particular?

In any case, some thoughts on Heroes of Horror:

Dread Necromancer might seem overpowered at first, but isn't actually broken when compared to other casters. It's about as good as a Bard or Warblade (Tier 3 according to JaronK). The major "trick" with them is to get Tomb-Tainted Soul on themselves or on other party members for infinite out-of-combat healing. Even this isn't actually a big deal though.

Archivist is one of the strongest classes in the entire game. Be careful with it. If it's in, the DM needs to have a clear idea of how available non-cleric spells are, and which questionable lists are open to the class.

Taint is broken in half.

Pact of Return is a very powerful spell, and can be a bit hard to deal with as a DM, so I'd call it problematic. Take a look at it and think about the boundaries you'd use if it's allowed.

Most of the rest, like Oneiromancy and Dread Witch and the like are fine. I can't remember much else that's really problematic.

[Cruiser1]

Pact of Return is a very powerful spell, and can be a bit hard to deal with as a DM, so I'd call it problematic. Take a look at it and think about the boundaries you'd use if it's allowed.Pact of Return allows free True Resurrections after arbitrary deaths! Nobody has to pay any gold or lose XP. :smallcool: Suppose a teammate dies. Cast Revenance (SpC) on them, so they're temporarily alive without penalty, but only for a few rounds. Use Bracelets of Spellsharing (DMG2) on you and the teammate. Cast Pact of Return, with the very specific condition of "come back to life if you're killed by my mace bashing through your skull". Because of the Bracelets that spell with range "personal" and target "you" affects your teammate. Now kill your teammate with your mace! They'll die and come back for real permanently, without either death making them lose a level. :smallbiggrin:

In summary, free True Resurrection for a 7th level spell, a 4th level spell, and the one time purchase price of the Bracelets. Note a simpler condition is "come back to life if you're killed by the Revenance spell expiring", however this way you don't have to wait, and besides who hasn't wanted to intentionally kill a partymate? :smallwink:

[BillyBobJoe]

Or you could do the same thing with revivify.

[Doomboy911]

By broken I mean is it overpowered.

[Greenish]

By broken I mean is it overpowered.Compared to what?

[Cruiser1]

Or you could do the same thing with revivify.Revivify (SpC) costs 1000 gold to cast. If you want a 100% free True Resurrection, you need to use an alternate spell, such as Pact of Return.

[Bovine Colonel]

By broken I mean is it overpowered.

Do properly played clerics count? Druids? Wizards? Archivists? Erudites Sorcerers? Favoured Souls? How about properly built Fighter/Barbarians?

[Flickerdart]

Heroes of Horror is only 1.8 pounds. By comparison, the DMG is a hefty 2.6 pounds, making it by far the more powerful book.

[Silva Stormrage]

Revivify (SpC) costs 1000 gold to cast. If you want a 100% free True Resurrection, you need to use an alternate spell, such as Pact of Return.

Psychic Revivify has an xp cost of 100 so it could be used too.

[Jude_H]

By broken I mean is it overpowered.
Dusk Giant, Tainted Scholar and Subverted Psion are worth keeping an eye on.

The biggest fear you should have for that book is its proportion of generic Wayne England monster illustrations.

[enderlord99]

Heroes of Horror is only 1.8 pounds. By comparison, the DMG is a hefty 2.6 pounds, making it by far the more powerful book.

Lord of the Rings, pre-editing.:smalltongue:

[Calimehter]

Heroes of Horror is only 1.8 pounds. By comparison, the DMG is a hefty 2.6 pounds, making it by far the more powerful book.

Eh, its not the base damage of the book that makes it overpowered. Its the feat that the wielder of the book has taken. ;)

[Fox Box Socks]

Heroes of Horror is only 1.8 pounds. By comparison, the DMG is a hefty 2.6 pounds, making it by far the more powerful book.
I'm sigging this, as I can't stop laughing at it.

Also, "overpowered" is in the eye of the beholder. Archivist has enough mojo to sit at the cool kids' table with the rest of the prepared casters, but the DM needs to do no more work countering it than he has to with any other Tier 1.

Taint is pretty busted, though.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

So regarding Heroes of Horror, 'taint busted.

I think the better question is "What in [x] is broken/overpowered?" The only things I hear about dragonlance material are some crazy kobold stuff and occasionally the war mage blasty PrC. The only things I hear about Serpent Kingdoms are the Sarrukh (however it's spelled) and venomfire. So how can we extract the OP stuff from all the other books?

And maybe the even better question is, in a book which is infamous for cheesy crap, what quality mechanics/fluff is in there?

[Grendus]

Agreed on Heroes of Horror. Archivist is powerful, though no more so than the other T1's (it's expanded spell selection is mitigated by DM control of what spells he can have, massive redundancy, and higher MAD), but the Dread Necromancer is perfectly fine for your average game, as are most of the PrC's with the exception of Tainted Scholar.

Next book: Races of Destiny. It's not broken on the same level as, say, Incantatrix, but does anyone else think this makes humans, already one of the most flexible races in the game, even more powerful?

[Calimehter]

Races of Destiny:

I've heard bad things about Locate City and Delay Death when used in certain combos with other things. Others could probably comment with more expertise on that.

I suppose making Decipher Script useful could be considered "broken" by frustrated PCs who dumped the skill. :smallwink:

[Socratov]

well, with certain feats you can turn locate city into the wightocalypse. You make sure you can add an elemental descriptor to locate city, then add damage, then ad fell drain. Cast the metamagiced spell and bam you have a wight for every commonner in a 20(?) mile radius. However, the tactic is unplayable because it won't help you with an advernture (though in sandbox games it is still fun), and more thought of as a theoretical optimization excercise.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Is Core broken?

[enderlord99]

Is Core broken?

There's a book entitled "Core?":smallconfused::smalltongue:

[mootoall]

Is Core broken?

Within the three core books are all the broken you'll ever need, on both ends of the spectrum.

[FMArthur]

well, with certain feats you can turn locate city into the wightocalypse. You make sure you can add an elemental descriptor to locate city, then add damage, then ad fell drain. Cast the metamagiced spell and bam you have a wight for every commonner in a 20(?) mile radius. However, the tactic is unplayable because it won't help you with an advernture (though in sandbox games it is still fun), and more thought of as a theoretical optimization excercise.

Pretty sure that Fell Drain (and Fell Frighten) is from Libris Mortis.

On HoH: I really, really like the book. But yes, I do think overall it has too much broken/game disrupting content. If you must take an all-or-nothing stance on book allowance, I would reluctantly recommend to leave it out of the game. Taint as a system is clunky, has too much uncertainty and is utterly bizarre in concept, not to mention incredibly and unfairly impactful on even normal, heroic play.
Tainted Scholar is Tainted Scholar.
Dread Necromancer is fairly balanced and interesting, but can promote a style of play that makes combat six hours long (organize your damned critters' turns, please :smallsigh:) and needs special consideration for campaign construction because of the style of 'community-interaction' greatly encouraged by the class.
Archivist is just another tier 1 but has a particularly high power ceiling.
Dread Witch is a lovable addition to the game though, and sort of necessary for Enchanters and Enchanter-esques to remain relevant later on.
I don't actually remember what the oneiromancy (dream-related spellcasting) rules were, but IIRC they're also in HoH, so check it out.

[Fox Box Socks]

Is Core broken?
Define "broken". There aren't a whole bunch of infinte damage loops or tier 0 classes running around, but the Player's Handbook probably has the largest number of options that are well above the acceptable power curve out of any book in 3.X.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Define "broken".
Anything that could make a game unfun or unplayable.

[Fox Box Socks]

Anything that could make a game unfun or unplayable.
Unplayable? No. Unfun? Absolutely.

[Z3ro]

Anything that could make a game unfun or unplayable.

Based on that definition everything is broken, especially players.

[tonberrian]

Based on that definition everything is broken, especially players.

Nerf players. Nerf DMs. Buff dice.

[Doomboy911]

Ok broken is where someone can use some of the basic stuff from the book and take on any encounter without batting an eye.

[Flickerdart]

Ok broken is where someone can use some of the basic stuff from the book and take on any encounter without batting an eye.
Any encounter? You encounter Ao, the Lady of Pain, Pun-Pun, the true form of Asmodeus, and they turn you into soup as a free action. Therefore, nothing is broken?

[Gavinfoxx]

I think he means 'Any encounter he could reasonably expect to come across using the CR system', perhaps??

[tonberrian]

A Dread Necromancer is probably as screwed as any other character against That Damned Crab at a CR-appropriate level.

[Flickerdart]

I think he means 'Any encounter he could reasonably expect to come across using the CR system', perhaps??
Crab. Elemental Weird. Adamantine Horror.

[Gavinfoxx]

An Archivist could probably take it, if they were able to prepare specifically for it and the DM allowed them to research something like the stats of the creature (as close as they can in character), AND they could get any spell they could theoretically get...

[Hiro Protagonest]

And maybe the even better question is, in a book which is infamous for cheesy crap, what quality mechanics/fluff is in there?

The PHB has, um, well, barbarians and rogues?

[Flickerdart]

The PHB has, um, well, barbarians and rogues?
That's a funny spelling of bard, I don't think I've ever encountered it before.

[Hiro Protagonest]

That's a funny spelling of bard, I don't think I've ever encountered it before.

PHB-only bards are bad.

[sreservoir]

I'm sigging this, as I can't stop laughing at it.

Also, "overpowered" is in the eye of the beholder. Archivist has enough mojo to sit at the cool kids' table with the rest of the prepared casters, but the DM needs to do no more work countering it than he has to with any other Tier 1.

Taint is pretty busted, though.

eh, the beholder needs to put out the eye to really be overpowered, though.

[tyckspoon]

PHB-only bards are bad.

They're not, really, but you do have to focus on a couple of more restricted areas; basically, you can do UMD-monkey to pretend to be a wizard, and you can do social. Core doesn't offer the needed support for a DPR-type bard, Inspire Courage is nice but hard to get really worked up about.. Fascinate -> Suggestion and Glibness are just as good as they are with splat support, tho, so own the social bits of the game and learn to enjoy playing support in combat (you have Grease, Glitterdust, Haste, Mirror Image, Alter Self- the lower-level Bard spell list is really quite nice. Exploit it and you'll be fine.)

[Fox Box Socks]

PHB-only bards are bad.
You, sir, cannot think of as many clever things to do with Charm Person as I can.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I like the fact that the oft-mocked Bard is the most soundly built class in the PHB. It seems like semi-specialized 2/3 casters represent T3 magic pretty well.

TangentFor what it's worth, it seems like Pathfinder is going the way of 2/3 casters for most of its new base classes, and they're all T3. You could hypothetically replace Wizard/Druid/Cleric/Oracle/Sorcerer/Witch with Magus/Alchemist/Inquisitor/Bard/Summoner, as long as you were willing to tone down the higher level encounters a little bit, and you'd have a T3-4 game ignoring the cavalier.

[Doomboy911]

You, sir, cannot think of as many clever things to do with Charm Person as I can.

I must admit I almost always play the bard for many reasons that is one of them.

Okay onto more Is this broken? questions

How about Tome of Battle?

[Mystic Muse]

I must admit I almost always play the bard for many reasons that is one of them.

Okay onto more Is this broken? questions

How about Tome of Battle?

Compared to tier 5 and 6, yes. Tier 3 is however the main goal a lot of people shoot for, so most of the time, no. There are only like two or three abuses, and these can be easily shut down.

So, if you're comparing it to Fighter and Monk, yes. If you're comparing it to Dread Necromancer or Bard, no.

Again, you should be more specific than asking if entire books are broken, because in just about every book there are one or two broken things. You also need to be more clear about what you're shooting for. Going by tiers would be easiest I believe.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

For a large part of this forum, Tome of Battle is the balance point against which other melee classes are held, so it can't be broken (other than a few odd tricks). For lower tier balance points, sure, it's broken... but so is most of D&D.

[Starbuck_II]

A Dread Necromancer is probably as screwed as any other character against That Damned Crab at a CR-appropriate level.

Not really, Ray of enfeeblement works wonders (not in PF as they added a save though).

[tonberrian]

The biggest things to look out for in Tome of Battle are White Raven Tactics (Give your friends extra actions! Customer Service says you can't use it on yourself!), Iron Heart Surge (Being dead is a condition which is measured in rounds! IRON HEART SUUUURGE!!), and the Ruby Knight VVindicator, who's Divine Impetus ability either sucks or is the best ability ever (gain a swift action for a Turn Undead attempt for an extra swift action but no action listed to use it, using it as anything but a free action is terrible, while using it as a free action is worth setting your DM up on a date with a hot person of their choice).

Note: this post exaggerated for comedic effect.

[Claudius Maximus]

Aptitude Weapons can get nasty too, but the player needs to find crazy stuff to use with it, so it usually doesn't come up. If you think they might though, take a look at it and consider whether it's okay.

[sreservoir]

(Being dead is a condition which is measured in rounds! IRON HEART SUUUURGE!!)

it's ... just not.

[Doomboy911]

Well I was thinking stuff like Time Stands Still was more overpowered than muhamad ali against mother Teresa.

(I'd pay to see that really really quick fight)

[mootoall]

Time Stands Still is a 9th level maneuver, right? Casters are still doing worse by that level.

[Mystic Muse]

Well I was thinking stuff like Time Stands Still was more overpowered than muhamad ali against mother Teresa.

(I'd pay to see that really really quick fight)

Again, overpowered compared to what?

We can't give you a decent response if you won't tell us what you want as a comparison. Fighter? Barbarian? Bard? Sorcerer? Wizard? Commoner?

[Doomboy911]

Overpowered or broken as in what you get in the class exceeds the drawbacks you receive. Also if taking levels renders most threats harmless especially ones way above the players CR.

[tonberrian]

it's ... just not.

And I quote:


Note: this post exaggerated for comedic effect.

[2xMachina]

Overpowered or broken as in what you get in the class exceeds the drawbacks you receive. Also if taking levels renders most threats harmless especially ones way above the players CR.

All classes give stuff without drawback (even lvl X+1 monk is better than lvl X monk).

2nd part, idk. Leadership etc I suppose.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Overpowered or broken as in what you get in the class exceeds the drawbacks you receive. Also if taking levels renders most threats harmless especially ones way above the players CR.

At this level, wizards are true dragons 17 hours a day, which is pretty much whenever they're not sleeping. Time Stands Still is not OP. Also, the wizard's safe, because the wizard shapechanged into a dragon is his astral projection.

[Gavinfoxx]

Doomboy: How many of the Tier Threads have you read??

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11714
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5070
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4938
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4919
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4890
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4913
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4874
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4869
http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5052

I also like this one. NOTE that it is talking about HOMEBREW variants of many of the classes within which would seem to have far different power levels. Just click the links:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=174628

What we are getting at is this: D&D is about RELATIVE power levels. Classes are only balanced in comparison to OTHER CLASSES. It's generally ideal to choose a particular balance point for the sort of play you consider 'ideal', and build and work towards that power level!

[mootoall]

Time Stands Still will *probably* oneshot an appropriate CR monster. But a Save or Die will too, and TSS is much less spammable.

[Tyndmyr]

Alright the basic idea of this thread is that people post something asking whether or not this is broken.

I'll begin is heroes of horrors broken?

In general? No.

But it's a book with some poor things in it. Note that poor doesn't always mean broken.

Edit: Taint IS broken as hell, though. Sufficiently so to earn a place on my very, very short universal ban list.

[Greenish]

Time Stands Still will *probably* oneshot an appropriate CR monster.A straight fighter 17 who has invested into Weapon Focus chain can probably kill a CR 17 monster with a full attack.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

A straight fighter 17 who has invested into Weapon Focus chain can probably kill a CR 17 monster with a full attack.
That shows how overpowered maneuvers really are.

[Gavinfoxx]

That shows how overpowered maneuvers really are.

...Whuuu? But the fighter isn't USING a Maneuver?? Or are you being sarcastic??

[mootoall]

...Whuuu? But the fighter isn't USING a Maneuver?? Or are you being sarcastic??

I should hope that was sarcasm.

[Gavinfoxx]

Well I had an honest question, I know how sarcasm doesn't easily transfer online, so I try not to use it without also putting lots of ';) ;) ;) or :smallwink: :smallwink: :smallwink:' in the message ...

[Quietus]

I think this thread is approaching things from the wrong perspective. The question shouldn't be "Is this book broken?", but rather, "What is broken from this book?". That way, when we name, say, Heroes of Horror, we can point out "Taint is a terrible, terrible thing, and should be avoided at all costs". Or with Tome of Battle, we can mention Iron Heart Surge, which does nothing it should do and everything it shouldn't.

[Doomboy911]

I prefer Quietus's idea much better than mine. What about Libris Mortis anything broken from that?

[Gavinfoxx]

Did you look at those links I showed you Doomboy? That will help you with *classes* in particular, letting you focus on non-class things.

[Fox Box Socks]

So, somewhat limited resource that can one-shot a CR appropriate monster = OP.

A full attack, something that the Fighter can do all day with no diminishing returns whatsoever, can do literally the exact same thing, and this is somehow more acceptable.

Right.

[Jude_H]

Not many things to watch for come to mind in Libris Mortis:

Nightsticks: not bad on their own, not bad if only one conveys its benefits, but if they stack, they can swamp a character in Turn Undead attempts. That's not bad on its own, but there are some powerful abilities that use Turn Undead attempts as a daily limit (most notably, Divine Metamagic and Divine Impetuous).

Master of Shrouds: there are obvious means of early entry, and the class can be pretty overwhelming if they're used. Less of a problem in high-op groups or higher levels.

Slaymate: Metamagic Reducer. Not unreasonable on its own, but worth keeping an eye on with other reductions.

Revived Fossils are very powerful melee brutes at low levels. Be careful if you throw them at the party, be especially careful if the party is able to throw them back.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

...Whuuu? But the fighter isn't USING a Maneuver?? Or are you being sarcastic??
What I actually meant was that one 9th level maneuver is better then a 17th level Fighter build. Greenish was comparing Time Stands Still to a 17th level Fighter with a long chain of fighter feats. That's what I pointed out.
And for clarification: Yes, it was sarcasm. Maneuvers are the (better) balanced things. The Fighter and fighter feats are too weak.

[Wings of Peace]

Slaymate: Metamagic Reducer. Not unreasonable on its own, but worth keeping an eye on with other reductions.


I dunno. As far as villains go a Dread Necromancer who forces people to murder their children to create Slaymates and then slaughters the parents for use as basic undead infantry would be pretty evocative.